
RECORD 



of 



EVIDENCE AND STATEMENTS 



before the 

Penitentiary Investigating 
Committee 

appointed by the 
THIRTY-THIRD LEGISLATURE 

OF TEXAS 





A. C BALDWIN & SONS 
AUSTIN. TEXAS 







aassJiY___3 

Book ______ 

l 4 I 5 



Report and Findings 



OF 



Penitentiary Investigating 
Committee 



Austin, Texas, July 24, 1913. 
To the House of Representatives of the 

State of Texas: 

Gentlemen — Complying with the terms 
of House Concurrent Resolution No. 27, 
your committee appointed to investigate 
the financial record and transactions and 
general business conduct of the peniten- 
tiary system of the State of Texas, here- 
with submits a copy of the report this 
day filed with the Governor of its in- 
vestigation, together with its recommen- 
dations for such changes and reforms as 
to the committee seems advisable. 

The evidence and statements taken be- 
fore the committee and made a part of 
said report will be forwarded to you by 
the committee tomorrow. 

We also submit minority report by 
Hon. R. B. Humphrey, member of the 
committee upon the part of the House. 
- Respectfully yours, 

WILL H. MAYES, 
/Chairman of the Committee. 
Hon. 0. B. Colquitt, Governor of Texas, 

Austin, Texas. 

Sir: The financial statements of the 
penitentiary system for the years 1911 



and 1912, disclosing a constantly in- 
creasing indebtedness on the part of the 
system, amounting on January 1, 1913, 
to $1,528,458.04, directed public atten- 
tion to the management of the institu- 
tion, and suggested a critical analysis 
of the law under which the prison sys- 
tem is being conducted. This led to 
suggestions for a broad and painstaking 
inquiry into the operation of the entire 
penitentiary system, and culminated in 
the passage by the Legislature of House 
Concurrent Resolution No. 27. 

This resolution authorized the appoint- 
ment of a committee of the Senate and* 
House, composed of the Lieutenant Gov- 
ernor, and two members of the Senate 
and three members of the House, which 
committee was "authorized and instruct- 
ed to investigate the financial record and 
financial transactions, and the general 
business conduct of *the penitentiary sys- 
tem as far back as said committee, in 
its discretion, may deem advisable"; 
and provided that "said committee shall 
make a report to the Governor, recom- 
mending such changes or reforms in the 
financial conduct of the penitentiary sys- 
tem as they may deem advisable, and 
shall report, in full, to the Governor 



Report and Findings of 



all valuable, pertinent information which 
they may be able to obtain with refer- 
ence to the financial conduct of the peni- 
tentiary system." 

The committee entered upon the in- 
vestigation ordered by the Legislature 
and approved by yourself, on April 23, 
1913, following the adjournment of the 
Regular Session of the Thirty-third Leg- 
islature, and has conducted such in- 
quiries as seemed practicable to its 
members and in keeping with the spirit 
of the resolution creating the commit- 
tee; and such as were deemed essential 
to elicit information justifying the com- 
mittee in the formation of recommenda- 
tions for the establishment of a sound 
public and business policy in the man- 
agement of the State prison system. The 
record of these inquiries in detail is 
submitted with this report as a part 
thereof. 

In its investigations the committee has 
sought to ascertain every material fact 
in the management of the prison sys- 
tem; and has endeavored in its study of 
the subject to take into consideration 
every factor entering into this complex 
problem. The investigation has been 
upon broad lines, calculated to deter- 
mine causes and fix responsibility for 
present unsatisfactory conditions; and 
intended to develop policies and details 
of management leading to the establish- 
ment of a prison system upon a basis 
responding alike to the enlightened hu- 
manitarianism and the experienced busi- 
ness judgment of the day. In all its 
labors the committee has kept before it 
a realization of the fact that its most 
important duty lay in the acquisition 
of such data as would justify compre- 
hensive recommendations of a construc- 
tive character. 

In pursuance of this policy the com- 
mittee has sought information from 
every available source that appeared 
profitable; from managers and employes 
of the prison system, present and past, 
and from citizens whose business experi- 
ence, judgment and observation of the 
operations of the prison system qualified 
them to render efficient aid in the solu- 
tion of the problem. Statements and 
recommendations herein submitted are 
the mature conclusions adduced from a 
careful review of these inquiries, and a 
thoughtful study of the questions in- 
volved in the conduct of the State penal 
system. 

Necessarily, in the time at its dis- 
posal, the committee has been able to 
cover only the more important features 



of penitentiary management, gftid many 
questions of detail contributing in some 
degree to the present condition of prison 
system finances, or of more or less in- 
terest, as information concerning the 
conduct of the system, have not been 
inquired into because of lack of time. 

In the presentation of its conclusions 
the committee has separated its report 
into two natural divisions, the first 
dealing with conditions under which the 
penitentiary has been conducted in the 
past and the policies that have affected 
in varying degrees the management of 
the institution and consequently are re- 
sponsible, directly or remotely, for the 
existing situation,, together with the 
committee's analysis of present condi- 
tions; and, secondly, the presentation 
and discussion of such policies and 
changes in the law and in the manage- 
ment of the penitentiary as has seemed 
to the committee best calculated to meet 
the demands of the future. 

The committee did not enter into an 
investigation of the conditions surround- 
ing the purchase by the State from the 
Imperial Sugar Company, of what is 
now known as the "Imperial State 
Farm," for the reason that the State is 
now involved in defending suit brought 
by the vendor for recovery of this prop- 
erty and for large damages, charging 
violation of the contract of sale upon 
the part of the State. This matter is 
now in the hands of the Attorney Gen- 
eral, and, although the terms and con- 
ditions of this transaction are open to 
serious criticism, it is our opinion that 
with certain facts before us, we should 
leave it for judicial ascertainment with- 
out further comment. 

Historical. 

The Huntsville prison was established 
in 1849, and the earliest reference made 
to the Rusk penitentiary was in 1870, 
when the report shows two men were 
received there. In 1870 the Huntsville 
penitentiary and the entire convict pop- 
ulation of 489 was leased to Ward, 
Dewey & Co., which lease continued in 
effect until the latter part of 1877, when 
the penitentiary was leased to E. H. Cun- 
ningham and L. A. Ellis, the contract 
beginning in 1878 and continuing for five 
years. There were at this time 1569 
convicts, and the most reliable informa- 
tion would indicate the price paid by 
the contractors was approximately $3 
per month per man, the State being 
relieved of all financial responsibility 
for the maintenance of the convicts. 

At the end of their five-year lease, 
Cunningham an <i Ellis offered to renew 



■ 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



it for a term of fifteen years, the maxi- 
mum term the statutes permitted at that 
time; while Morrow, Hamblin & Co. of- 
fered to lease the Rusk penitentiary for 
a like period. The Eighteenth Legisla- 
ture refused to ratify this lease, which 
action marked the end of the plan of 
leasing the penitentiaries as a whole, and 
the beginning of what is known as the 
convict lease system, under which men 
were leased in such numbers as contrac- 
tors desired. The first leases were made 
at the price of $15 per month, the con- 
tractors furnishing houses and food for 
the convicts and guards, the State bear- 
ing other expenses and employing and 
paying the guards. The State's portion 
of the expense was estimated at $9 per 
month per man, netting $6 on the con- 
tract. It may be of interest to note 
that the contractors were to get ten 
hours of labor a day. In 1898 a pro- 
vision was inserted in the lease contract 
whereby the State was to feed all con- 
victs under lease, the sum of $4.50 per 
month being added to the contract price, 
this being the sum estimated as neces- 
sary to feed the men. 

During the superintendency of J. A. 
Herring, the contract price of labor was 
raised to $29 and. $31 per month, ah 
though prior to that time railroads and 
mining companies had paid as much as 
$35 per month for convict labor, the 
State in each instance feeding, clothing 
and guarding the men. 

The contract lease policy continued 
without interruption until 'the investi- 
gation of the special committee in 1909 
disclosed the abuses that had grown up 
under long years of operation, resulting 
in the passage of the present statute di- 
recting the abolition of that policv, 
which facts are too fresh in the public 
mind to need further comment in this 
connection. 

Audits. 

The committee did not undertake an 
independent audit of the books of the 
prison system. I n 1909 the special leg- 
islative investigating committee secured 
an audit by the Corporation Audit 
Company, public accountants of Dallas, 
which covered the period from Novem- 
ber 1, 1900, to August 31, 1909. By di- 
rection of the present Prison Commis- 
sion, upon the suggestion of your Excel- 
lency, an audit was made by F. J. Huey, 
certified public accountant of Houston, 
covering (1) the operations of share 
farms from January 1, 1910, to January 
20, 1911; (2) the operations of the pris- 
on system from April 1, 1910, to Decem- 
ber 31, 1911; and (3), the operations of 



the system for the vear ending December 
31, 1912. 

When the new law became effective 
January 20, 1911, it provided for the 
appointment of an auditor for the sys- 
tem, Mr. A. M. Barton being appointed 
to that position, and his report was 
available, covering the period of his oc- 
cupancy of the office. In March of this 
year, Mr. J. M. Moore was appointed 
auditor to succeed Mr. Barton, and the 
committee also had the benefit of his in- 
vestigation of the financial transactions 
of the system. Under the circumstances 
it did not appear to the committee that 
another special audit would be justified 
or would disclose any fact not already 
known. If these audits were unreliable 
to determine what the records of the 
system show, the committee felt that ft 
had no assurance another special audit, 
involving additional expense, would be 
any more likely to discover inaccuracies 
or irregularities. The audit made by 
the Corporation Audit Company, cover- 
ing the years from November 1, 1900, 
to August 31, 1909, contained a large 
amount of valuable information respect- 
ing the operations of the prison system, 
and it would appear to the committee, 
has never been studied to much advan- 
tage either by the prison management, 
the State officials or by the public. 

The Corporation Audit Company, in 
their report direct attention to the fact 
that for the period covered by their in- 
vestigation the books had been closed 
only at the end of each two years; that 
forced balances were necessary to start 
with, and that at varying periods during 
the nine years reviewed by them the 
books relating to the business transac- 
tions of the prison were kept in such 
'tanner as to be practically without 
value, but that beginning with 190 the 
c-counts had been fairly well kept, 
though the balances at the beginning of 
that period had been forced. 

During the past three years, and 
since the first of the audits mentioned 
was made, notable improvements have 
been effected in the accounting methods 
of the institution, but the accounting 
•ystem is signally inadequate in import- 
ant details, and it is imperative that 
many improvements must still be intro- 
duced before an institution of the mag- 
nitude of the penitentiary system can be 
Klministered upon a basis of business 
efficiency. 

This committee has reviewed all the 
audits since 1900, and it is our conclu- 
sion that while the records may show, 



Report and Findings of 



with a fair degree of correctness, most 
of the transactions of the prison sys- 
tem, such records are inaccurate and un- 
reliable to disclose the profitableness or 
unprofitableness of any particular indus- 
try or business activity of the peniten- 
tiary system. 

It appears that in the operations of 
farms or factories, items carried in one 
account during one period or under one 
management were carried in some other 
account at another time or by other ac- 
countants. This fact alone is sufficient 
to render it impossible to ascertain ac- 
curately the cost of production of differ- 
ent manufactured articles or the exact 
cost of producing various crops. The 
system of exchange between factories and 
farms appears in many instances to have 
be^n carried on upon a more or less arbi- 
trary plan, lacking in uniformity 
throughout the system, and frequently 
independent of considerations of actual 
cost of producing the articles exchanged, 
or the value of such articles in the open 
market. Such illogical plans may have 
had the effect of showing arbitrarily a 
profit for a department of the system 
when actual conditions, including each 
element of cost in production of the 
article, would disclose the lack of net 
earnings, or a loss. 

Losses at Rusk and Huntsville. 

We have given careful consideration 
to the various manufacturing enterprises 
carried on at Huntsville and at Rusk, 
as indicated by the testimony before the 
committee, and the special reports se- 
cured from managers of the different de- 
partments; and while the methods of 
accounting do not provide absolutely 
correct information concerning the oper- 
ations of each industry, as before stated, 
we are forced to the conclusion that no 
manufacturing industry undertaken by 
the prison system shows conclusively 
that it has ever been conducted at a 
profit; or, if so, certainly not for any 
appreciable length of time, notwithstand- 
ing certain factories in the Huntsville 
prison show a book profit for certain 
years. 

Our investigation leads us to accept 
as the minimum loss in the nine years 
from November 1, 1900, to September 1, 
1909, the amount indicated by the report 
of the Corporation Audit Company, 
which places the loss at Rusk at $863,- 
734.72, and that at Huntsville at $352,- 
168.71. These amounts are reached by 
an arbitrary credit for labor of $609,- 
518.32 at Rusk, and of $448,396.95 at 
Huntsville. which credits a.rp. made pre- 
sumably because a proportionate part 



of such labor credit was charged against 
the different industries in the two 
prisons. If each of the activities of the 
prisons was charged with the labor em- 
ployed by it, then such credit is not 
only permissible but essential to a 
proper balance of the account. If the 
different industries were not so charged, 
however, and the only evidence of the 
charge is in the credit itself, the loss 
sustained would be, for Rusk, $1,473,- 
253.04; and, for Huntsville, $800,565.66. 
Accepting the statement of Financial 
Agent W. M. C. Hill, in his official re- 
port on August 31, 1902, that "Rusk at 
this time is due the system $1,565,- 
678.20, being the cost above total re- 
ceipts for fifteen years," and adding 
thereto the subsequent losses to Decem- 
ber 31, 1912; after absorbing all receipts, 
and allowing a credit of $609,518.32 for 
convict labor, the Rusk penitentiary has 
cost the State $2,328,305.54 above total 
earnings for only that part of its ex- 
istence for which partial records are 
available. 

The report of the Corporation Audit 
Company is illuminating as to the con- 
ditions prevailing in the management of 
the Rusk penitentiary for the period 
covered by their audit. To quote that 
report : 

"The principal industry at Rusk is 
that of manufacturing pig iron and cast 
iron piping; the records will not permit 
of any intelligent report on the cost of 
manufacturing iron pipe, etc. We made 
special effort to find records of some de- 
scription that would enable us to give 
an intelligent report on this branch of 
the system, but after compiling what 
figures we could find from various pencil 
memoranda, any results gathered there- 
from would be misleading and without 
value. An idea of the records at Rusk 
is found in a notation on one of the 
books, saying, 'These few days' opera- 
tions of the furnace is left blank because 
the furnaceman refused to make daily 
report.' " 

The report gives the loss from oper- 
ation of the iron industry at Rusk for 
the period covered by their examination, 
"Without any proportion of the general 
expenses and without any charge for the 
salaries of the general manager and su- 
perintendents," as $297,657.86. 

It is needless to say that had the 
iron industry been charged with its 
rightful share of the general system ex- 
pense, and also special salary and other 
expenses, the loss chargeable to this in- 
dustry would be greatly augmented. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



The efforts by the State to develop 
the iron industry at Rusk present one 
uninterrupted record of financial disas- 
ter. Coke is not accessible, lime rock 
expensive to secure, and the difficulties 
and cost of mining and moving the ore 
render it an undertaking calculated to 
tax the business acumen, and the ex- 
ecutive ability of private enterprise to 
the utmost, which facts preclude the 
possibility, in the judgment of this com- 
mittee, that the State can ever hope to 
operate this industry without tremen 
dous loss. It is doubtful if there can be 
found in the history of the United States 
an illustration of the use of public funds 
for the development of natural resources 
upon purely sectional demands, without 
system or attempt at business manage- 
ment, and subjected to the vicissitudes 
of changing administrative policies, as 
indefensible as that presented in the 
attempt to promote this iron industry. 
The establishment of a part of the peni- 
tentiary system at Eusk, and the ex- 
penditure there of hundreds of thou- 
sands of dollars, in furnace and smaller 
industries, tells an impressive story of 
the costliness to the people of such ex- 
perimental policies. The genius of mod- 
ern commercial enterprise may, in the 
course of time, place the iron industry 
in East Texas upon a profitable basis, 
but the unbusiness-like attempts of the 
State at development of that industry 
promise only a continuing exhibition of 
stupendous folly prejudicial to develop- 
ment by legitimate industry, and empha- 
sizing not alone the absence of business 
policies in affairs of the State, but ap- 
parently the inability of the State to 
legislate with reasonable regard for busi- 
ness considerations. 

We have considered the iron industry 
at Rusk with regard to the contract en- 
tered into between Your Excellency on 
behalf of the State and private parties 
for the operation of the State furnace, 
and have carefully inquired into the 
probability of profitable employment of 
convicts in mining the ore and deliver- 
ing it to the furnace, and although the 
State's heavy investment in the Rusk 
plant suggests the importance of extra 
ordinary efforts to derive the largest 
possible returns to the State from the 
proposed operation of the furnace, 
through the employment of a consider- 
able force of convicts at remunerative 
wages, it is the conclusion of the com- 
mittee that, under the terms of the con- 
tract, convicts cannot be used with profit 
in this work: and that the best interests 



of the State will be subserved by sell- 
ing the ore to the lessees in the beds, 
notwithstanding the price named in the 
contract is negligible. It no doubt was 
advisable to lease the Rusk furnace for 
the period stipulated in the contract for 
the purpose of inducing private enter- 
prises to undertake the development of 
the iron industry of East Texas; at the 
same time, we 'feel we should suggest 
that son long as private parties are able 
to lease these valuable properties at the 
price to be paid, they are unlikely to en- 
deavor to purchase, at a reasonable 
valuation. 

Revenues, 1901 to 1910. 

With the idea of presenting a com- 
parison of the cost of per capita main- 
tenance of the convicts under the old law 
and under the new, the committee ascer- 
tained as nearly as the records disclose 
the receipts of the system for the pre- 
ceding ten years. When an effort was 
made to figure the relative cost, it was 
found that no equitable plan could be 
devised upon which to make the desired 
comparison. For example, there was 
nothing in the books of the preceding 
years, or the audits covering that time, 
to show that a charge for labor had been 
made in all the units of the system; nor 
was the record of expenditures for per- 
manent improvements and betterment 
sufficiently reliable to justify the as- 
sumption that the total of such expendi- 
tures, or even any material proportion 
of them, had been accounted for. There- 
fore, owing to the differences in the ac- 
counting record, and lack of complete 
detailed statements showing receipts and 
expenditures, and operating, maintenance 
and overhead expenses, any comparison 
of per capita cost of conducting the pris- 
on system would be of no value. 

As furnishing pertinent information 
respecting the financial history of the 
prison system, however, the statement of 
sources of revenue for the years indi- 
cated will be found of special interest. 

The total of appropriations for these 
ten years was: 

For the biennial period ending August 

31, 1902 $135,625 00 

For 1903-4 385.996 78 

For 1905-6 77,619 99 

For 1907-8 21,510 00 

For 1909-10 164,485 45 

Total $785,237 22 

The income from State farms for the 
ten-year period was $1,621,219.16. 

During this period the Harlem, Clem- 
ens and Wynne farms were operated all 



Eeport and Findings of 






of the time, the Ramsey farm for three 
years and Imperial farm two years. 

From the operation of share farms the 
receipts for the ten years were $2,900,- 
008.28. 

These share farm receipts were derived 
from the operations of the Williams, 
Farris, Dunovant, Johns, Stratton, Spil- 
ler, Whatley, Johnson, Walnut and East- 
ham farms. 

Miscellaneous gross receipts, including 
the output of the Rusk and Huntsville 
prisons, the Texas State Railroad and 
the Star State sawmill in this period ag- 
gregated $3,036,677.60. 

The terms under which the share 
farms were worked were that the State 
receive 60 per cent and the landowner 
40 per cent of the products, the State 
furnishing the men and feeding, clothing 
and guarding them, while the landlord 
furnished teams, tools and feed for the 
teams, as also buildings in which to 
house the men. 

The receipts during the ten years 
named from convict lease labor contracts 
were for — 

1901 $376,948 43 

1902 375,556 47 

1903 399,584 76 

1904 417,836 72 

1905 404.235 74 

1906 428,382 80 

1907 417,441 47 

1908 . 473,135 89 

1909 460,381 41 

1910 344,735 85 

The grand total of receipts from the 

four sources named in the records of the 
prison svstem for the years indicated 
is $12,405,821.06. 

During this period the property ac- 
count of the prison system was increased 
by the purchase and payment for the 
Ramsey farm at a cost of $106,727.50, 
■and the Imperial farm at a cost of 
$160,000. 

For the four years immediately pre- 
ceding the date on which the new law 
became effective the receipts from lease 
contracts were the greatest of any four 
years in the history of the prison sys- 
tem, being $l,695,694.66,or $45,654.64 
more than for the preceding four years. 

In his statements before the commit- 
tee, Judge W. H. Gill, chairman of the 
Prison Board during the four years pre- 
ceding the present law, commenting 
upon the lease system, said: 

"I understand the lease system should 
have been abolished in 1914. They were 
to give us three years to wipe it out. 
Will say here that it was the policy of 



our administration and the preceding ad 
ministration to abolish the lease sys- 
tem without reference to the date fixed 
by law. I think now it was a mistake 
to have done it ae it was done. The 
law ought to have done it in a different 
way. Under the lease system the State 
housed its convicts, clothed its convicts, 
fed its convicts, and at its own expense, 
just like it does on its farms. They 
were handled by guards employed by 
the State, and they were under the con- 
trol of a sergeant controlled by the 
State, and it was up to the sergeant to 
say whether and how many hours they 
should work, but there was always a 
danger of abuse, and the' owner of a 
plantation who was paying $31 per 
month for convicts had the temptation 
before him all the time to induce the 
guards to overwork the convicts, and 
there was that danger whether it ac- 
tually occurred or not, that the guard 
or sergeant might be corrupted. That 
was the only harm I knew of the lease 
system while I was in office. I know of 
occasions of overwork. I know by hear- 
say, there were some- pretty hard driv- 
ers, but I don't know if it exceeded then 
what free labor is forced to do in emer- 
gencies where they are threatened with 
a freeze or their crops are in the grass. 
I never saw them work any harder than 
the free negro on the farm does. There 
was no reason why, if the lease system 
had been properly abandoned, the State 
might not have found ample work for 
their convicts on the farms, for there 
were plantation owners with land plant- 
ed to cane, and other lands with other 
crops that the State could either have 
got for money rent or part of the crop. 
We worked the Sugarland plantation 
that way when I went out of office, and 
they made it a paying proposition, too, 
I think." 

By reference to the penitentiary rec- 
ords it is shown that the statement of 
Mr. Gill to the effect that the adminis- 
tration of which he was a part, as well 
as the previous administrations, had fol- 
lowed the policy of eliminating the lease 
system is borne out. The fact that the 
administration of Judge Gill was direct- 
ed towards the increased employment of 
convicts on share farms is also 'indicated. 
In 1906 there were 1772 men leased to 
contractors, and 452 worked -on share 
farms; and in 1910 there were 1056 men 
leased to contractors and 821 were 
worked on shares. 

Under these circumstances, of a con- 
stant decrease in the number of leased 
men, the fact that the four years cov- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



ered by Judge Gill's administration 
shows the largest receipts from the sale 
of labor requires explanation. This ex- 
planation is found in the increase dur- 
ing that period of the charge of leased 
labor to $31 per month, while the rail- 
way and mining companies paid $35 per 
month. 

Present Indebtedness". 

In the endeavor to present in full de- 
tail the present indebtedness of the 
prison system in such maner as will 
enable the Legislature to secure a com- 
prehensive idea not only of the indebted- 
ness but of the assets and liabilities and 
of the operation of the various depart- 
ments of the system, the committee sub- 
mits herewith a series of statements 
bearing upon the financial operations of 
the system. 

Statement No. 1 presents the assets 
and liabilities of the system on Decem- 
ber 31, 1912, as also surplus from oper- 
ations. It will be observed that the 
Rusk State Railroad bonds of $100,000 
is being carried as a liability, while the 
prison system is carrying as an asset 
$91,070.53 in its general account for 
money paid out on account of the rail- 
road, which would leave a balance of 
$8929.47 in favor of the system. Full 
detail of these accounts may be found 
in the records of the prison system or 
may be derived from the special audit 
of certified public accountant, F. J. 
Huey, for the year 1912. 

Assets and Liabilities of Prison System. 
■Assets. 

Cash $ 38,772 24 

Bills receivable 33,608 71 

Accounts receivable 276,290 45 

Texas State R. R. (general 

account) 91,070 53 

Property accounts 3,876,161 49 

Huntsville, Rusk and 
Farms — 
Inventories — 

Ope rating 

H u ntsville 

p e n i t e ti- 

tiary $158,815 50 

State farms. 262,126 50 
Share farms. 18,794 68 
Rusk peniten- 
tiary 41,880 50 

481,617 18 



$4,797,500 60 
Liabilities. 

Capital $2,195,214 91 

Appropriations 310,000 00 

First mortgage R. R. bond. 100,000 00 
Bills payable. $912,374.93 



Accounts pay- 
able 441,107 08 

Pay roll .... 25,807 18 

Per diem due 

convicts . . 112,713 81 

Accrued in- 
terest and 
taxes 36,455 04 



Surplus 



1,528,458 04 



662,827 65 



$4,797,500 60 

Statement Expenditures and Indebted- 
ness Incurred, January 20, 1911, to 

December 31, 1912. 
Statement No. 2 shows the total ex-, 
penditures of January 20, 1911, to De- 
cember 31, 1912, in excess of the earn- 
ings of the system for the two years; 
or, in other words, this statement shows 
the assets created out of the indebted- 
ness incurred during this period, as also 
exhibiting the losses sustained from the 
operations of the system during the 
period. The statement also shows the 
appropriations by the Legislature for 
the two years; the amounts due sundry 
individuals and companies, as also the 
amount of cash spent during that period 
in excess of the amounts received. 

Full . details of the operations of the 
prison system will be found in the audit 
of Accountant F. J. Huey on file. 
Expenditures for buildings, 

live stock equipment, etc.$ 652.086 92 
Addition to inventories of 

operating supplies 82,954 52 

Additions to accounts and 

bills receivable 271,923 52 

Loss from operations, farms 

and industries, 1911.... 375,287 15 
Loss from operations, farms 

and industries, 1912 416.753 20 



$1,802,005 31 
The penitentiary indebtedness being in 

excess of earnings December 30, 1912, is 

as follows : 

Incurred during period January 20, 

1911, to December 31, 1912: 

Appropriations by State. . .$ 310,000 00 

Accounts payable in notes, 
pay rolls and interest ac- 
crued and per diem due 
convicts 1,481,299 49 



Cash on hand January 20, 
1911, in excess of amount 
on hand December 31, 



$1,791,299 49 



1912 



10,705 82 
$1,802,005 31 



8 



Keport and Findings op 



Financial condition July 1, 1913: 

I n d e b ted- 
ness Dec. 
31, 1912. $1,528,458 04 

I n d e b ted- 
ness July 
1, 1913. . $1,656,835 47 

A p propria- 
tions by 
33d Legis- 
lature ... 550,000 00 

Receipts of 
prison sys- 
tem Jan- 
u a r y 1, 
1913, to 
July 1, 
1913 .... 59,747 15 

Balance in 
State 
Treas- 
urer's of- 
fice July 
1, 1913.". 192,969 42 



Increase in 
i n debted- 
ness from 
Jan uary 
1,1913, to 
July 1, 
1913 .... 



$1,721,427 46 $2,266,582 62 



545,155 16 



$2,266,582 62 $2,266,582 62 

From this statement it will be deter- 
mined that the expense of conducting 
the prison system is now approximating 
the sum of $1,000,000 per annum. It is 
proper to state, however, that the ex- 
penditures for the first half of the year, 
being the season of heaviest expense in- 
curred in planting and cultivating the 
crops, may be somewhat in excess of 
those for the remainder of the year. 

It will also be seen that the receipts 
thus far reported during 1913 amount 
only to $59,747.15, the remainder of the 
expenditure for the current year being 
derived from the cash appropriations. 
Attention should be directed to the fact 
that the period represented in this state- 
ment covers that portion of the year 
when there are practically no receipts 
from the operations of the prison sys- 
tem. 

Statement No. 3 shows the actual cash 
receipts, and the actual cash disburse- 
ments from January 20, 1911, to Decem- 
ber 31, 1912. The statement does not 
include sales by system industrial • de- 
partments to the farms, or department 
-exchanges, for which a book charge only 
;is made. It will be observed that the 



$ 49,478 06 



cash on hand January 20, 1911, was 
$49,478.06, and the cash on hand Decem- 
ber 31, 1912, was $38,772.24, the differ- 
ence of $10,705.82 being shown as cash 
disbursed on statement No.. 2. 



Cash on 

hand Jan- 
uary 20, 
1911 .... 

State appro- 
priations $ 310,000 00 

Borr owed 
f r o m 
banks and 
share 
farm con- 
tractors . 252,246 34 

Sale of 
crops, 
mfg. prod- 
ucts, etc.. 1,075,578 14 

Received 
from 
lease 
c o ntract- 
ors 212,395 55 



1,830,220 03 
$1,879,698 09 



Less Disbursements — 
Pay rolls .$ 630,472 41 
Transfer 

agents' 

salaries . 7,140 00 

Convict 

per diem. 90,162 02 
Food, sup- 
plies, live 

stock, im- 

prove- 

m e n t s, 

equip- 

ment and 

repairs .. 1,113,151 42 



Cash on 
hand 



1,840,925 85 



$ 38,772 24 



Sales of crops, manufactured products, 
etc., $1,075,575.14, includes sales for 
cash only, and does not include sales to 
the farms or other departments, for 
which a book charge only was made. 

Accounts Charged Off. 

In the period between 1900 and 1910 
the following sums represented by notes 
have been charged off the books as los3. 
From the Huntsville books, something 
more than $44,571.35; and from the 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee.. 



9 



Rusk books more than $49,820.65. In 
addition to these notes the auditors di- 
rect attention to the facts that there 
were open accounts of various sums 
never collected; or to quote the auditors 
"if collected not accounted for." The 
books on May 1 of this year show ac- 
counts of $165,270.50; and notes amount- 
ing to $27,164.86. Of these sums, ac- 
counts aggregating $60,953.70, and notes 
amounting to $10,250.04, being a total 
of $71,203.74, were on the books when 
the present management assumed con- 
trol of the prison system in 1911, which 
would indicate the improbability that 
anything can be realized from them. In 
this connection, we would state that the 
audit of 1912 shows that out of $276,- 
270.45 in all probability $118,700.97 may 
not be collected, the auditor declaring 
the accounts of doubtful value. Among 
the accounts classed as doubtful is in- 
cluded $78,734.57 representing cane 
grown by the prison system and sold to 
the Imperial Sugar Company, for which 
suit is pending. 

Attention is directed by the committee 
to the losses and the status of these 
accounts for thep urpose of emphasizing 
the lack of proper business methods in 
the sale and collecting department of the 
prison system extending back as far as 
the special audits have been conducted 
into the records of the transactions of 
the system. 

Farm Operation Losses. 

We have examined at considerable 
length into the operation of the differ- 
ent prison system departments and di- 
rect attention to the result of the oper- 
ation of the State farms and share and 
lease farms for the years 1911 and 1912. 
The losses sustained by the farms are 
as follows: In all instances a convict 
labor charge of 50 cents per day was 
allowed in addition to maintenance sup- 
plies. 

The operations for 1911 show: 
Harlem State farm, loss from 

operation $ 55,643 67 

Harlem sugar house, loss 

from operation 22,202 37 

Imperial State farm, loss 

from operation 54,370 79 

Ramsey State farm, loss 

from operation 40,189 22 

Clemens State farm, loss 

from operation 37,229 04 

Clemens sugar house, net 

earnings 33,586 67 

Goree State farm, loss from 

operation 7,063 30 



Wynne State farm, loss from 

operation 11,053 17 

Bassett Blakely share farm, 

loss from operation 9,451 59 

H. L. Trammell share farm, 

loss from operation 9,300 10 

Lakeside Sugar Co. share 

farm, loss from operation. 20,407 76 
E. A. Eastman share farm, 

loss from operation 7,675 74 

Imperial Sugar Co. share 

farm, loss from operation. 29,645 36 
Burleson & Johns share 

farm, loss from operation. 11,824 80 
Elkins & Gibson share farm, 

loss from operation 10,818 35 

H. S. Drew & Bro. share 

farm, loss from operation. 20,813 70 
Delia Eastham share farm, 

loss from operation 22,252 19 

1ST. A. Shaw share farm, loss 

from operation 12,268 20 

Total loss from farm 
operations $382,209 37 

Xet profit Clemens sugar 

house $ 33,586 67 

The operations of the State and lease 
farms for the year 1912 show the fol- 
lowing results: 

Harlem State farm, loss from 

operation $ 12,531 96 

Harlem sugar mill, loss from 

operation 19,308 38 

Imperial State farm, loss 

from operation 100,274 54 

Ramsey State farm, loss 

from operation 66,213 40 

Clemens State farm, loss 

from operation 78,787 76 

Clemens sugar house, loss 

from operation 11,118 51 

Goree State farm, loss from 

operation 5,188 76 

Wynne State farm, loss from 

operation . 9,794 25 

Bassett Blakely leased farm, 

loss from operation 15,648 29 

Burleson & Johns leased 

farm, loss from operation. 35,166 01 
N. A. Shaw share farm, loss 

from operation 25,233 37* 

Lakeside Sugar R. Co. share 

farm, loss from operation. 54,821 91 
H. L. Trammell share farm, 

loss from operation 12,937 26 



Total losses for two 

years $471,685 44 



10 



Repokt and Findings of 



N/et profit Clemens sugar 

house (for 1911) $35,586 67 

During the time covered by the fore- 
going statement of operations a consid- 
erable amount of work has been done 
on some of the State farms for which 
the property account of the prison sys- 
tem is entitled to credit. The charges 
for work of this character on the dif- 
ferent farms are as follows: 
Credit for clearing and ditch- 
ing land on Clemens farm.$ 28,748 20 
Credit for clearing and ditch- 
ing land on Ramsey farm. 55,585 50 
Credit, improvements Im- 
perial farm 21,496 20 

Credit, clearing land Harlem 

farm " 27,674 60 



$133,504 50 

From the foregoing statements it is 
observed that the expenditures in the op- 
eration of the farms exceeds receipts for 
the two years in the sum of $820,326.37, 
and hence to this amount affects the in- 
debtedness of the system; while the 
amount of $133,504.50 represents the im- 
provements and credit to be made to 
the property account. 

There can be no doubt of the fact 
that the freeze of 1911 represented a 
serious loss, estimated anywhere from 
$200,000 to $300,000, though no reliable 
figures are obtainable, as sugar cane is 
a crop subject to considerable hazard. 
The loss due to the freeze, however, so 
far ns it affects the present indebtedness 
of the system can only be measured by 
the amount it cost the system in cash, or 
obligationc, just as a crop failure of 
any other character would be applicable. 
This is included in farm losses. It should 
be mentioned that even with the freeze 
the return from the cane crop of 1911 
compares favorable with that of 1912, 
in which year there was a drought, the 
returns from the cane crop for the two 
years being as follows: 

1911— 
Cane from Clemens farm. . . .$ 88,303 74 
Cane from Imperial farm... 32,874 78 
Cane from Ramsev farm .... 25,495 20 
Cane from Harlem farm 32.602 90 



Total receipts from the 

four State farms $179,276 52 

Of this amount the sum of $78,734.57 
is not vet paid and is involved in suit. 

1912— 

Cane from Clemens farm $ 32,589 16 

Cane from Harlem farm.... 40,511 96 



Cane from Ramsey farm.... 11,790 81 
Cane from Imperial farm . . . 26,589 34 

Total of $111,481 27 

In this year there was an unusually 
light rainfall during the maturing sea- 
son. 

Altogether, these two years forceably 
remind us that sugar cane and the mak- 
ing of sugar is a very hazardous indus- 
try. It is to be regretted that the re- 
turns from these farms did not realize 
expectations entertained of the cane crop, 
but we cannot agree with the Prison 
Commission in the conclusion that the 
estimated value of the cane crop, before 
the freeze, accounts for $250,000 or more 
of our present indebtedness, for the rea- 
son that the true charge is equal only 
to the amount expended and not recov- 
ered. As a matter of course, the in- 
debtedness would have been much re- 
duced had no freeze occurred, but the 
same could be said of our cotton crop of 
1912 had there be no drought. 

It may be said in this connection that 
while the three disastrous fires in the 
two penitentiaries caused a property loss 
estimated at $286,931.75, the direct ef- 
fect upon the present indebtedness of the 
system can only be measured by the ac- 
tual cost of the partial restoration of 
the plants, which is estimated to date 
by Commissioner L .W. Tittle at $60,000. 

In addition to this actual cash pay- 
ments for repairs to roofs and new ma- 
chinery were made, amounting to $26,- 
100. 

Per Capita of Maintenance. 

Cost per capita, per diem and per 
month on the State, lease and share 
farms for the years 1911 and 1912. This 
includes maintenance, supplies and cloth- 
ing only, plus 9 cents per diem per cap- 
ita overhead system charges, and the 10 
cents per diem required by law. 

Note. — The average cost per capita 
per month for the entire system for the 
year 1911 was $17.03, and for 1912, 
$20.59, including overhead charges and 
per diem. 

Harlem State Farm — 
Cost per diem convict 

M. S. and clothing. .$0.5920 
Cost per diem convict 
everhead expense sys- 
tem 19 

Per diem $0.7820 

Per month, m a i n t e- 
nance, supplies and 
clothing with over- 
head charges $23 46 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



11 



Imperial State Farm — 

Cost per diem convict 
M. S., and clothing. .$0.2513 

Cost per diem convict 
overhead expense sys- 
tem 19 

Per diem $0.7113 

Per month, m a i n t e- 

nance, supplies and 

clothing with over- 
head charges ....... 21 33 

Ramsey State Farm — 
Cost per diem convict, 

M. 3 S. and clothing. . $0.5159 
Cost per diem convict 

overhead expense svs- 

tem .19 

Per diem $0.7059 

Per month, mainte- 
nance, supplies and 
clothing with over- 
head charges 21 17 

Clemens State Farm — 

Cost per diem, M., S. 

and clothing $0.6965 

Cost per diem overhead 
expense system 19 

Per diem $0.8865 

Per month, mainte- 
nance, supplies and 
clothing with over- 
head charges ....... 26 59 

Burleson & John Share Farm — 

Cost per diem, M., S. 

and clothing $0.3479 

Cost per diem, overhead 
expense system 19 

Per diem $0.5379 

Per month, m a i n t e- 
nance, supplies and 
clothing with over- 
head charges 17 13 

T. W. House Contract Force — 

Cost per diem, M., S. 

and clothing $0.3876 

Cost per diem, over- 
head expense system .19 

Per diem $0.5776 

Per month, mainte- 
nance, supplies and 
clothing with over- 
head charges 17 32 

N. A. Shaw Share Farm — 

Cost per diem ,M., S. 

and clothing $0.4652 

Cost per diem, overhead 
expense system 19 

Per diem $0.6552 



Per month, mainte- 
nance, supplies and 
clothing with over- 
head charges 

Lakeside Sugar Co. — 

Cost per diem convict 

M., S. and clothing. .$0.5151 

Cost per diem convict 
overhead expense sys- 
tem .19 



19.66 



Per diem $0.7051 

Per month, mainte- 
nance, supplies and 
clothing with overhead 

charges 21.15 

Bassett Blakely Share Farm — 

Cost per diem convict 

M. S. and clothing. . .$0.3324 

Cost per diem convict 
overhead expense sys- 
tem .19 



Per diem $0.5224 

Per month, mainte- 
nance, supplies and 
clothing with overhead 

charges 

H. L. Trammell Share Farm- 
Cost per diem convict 

AL, S. and clothing. .$0.3929 
Cost per diem overhead 
expense system 19 



15.67 



Per diem $0.5829 

Per month, m a i n t e- 
tenance, supplies and 
clothing with over- 
head charges 17 48 



Average per 
all farms 



month, 

$20 18 

Xote. — Overhead charge for general 
system, expense and per diem amounts 
to $5.70 per month, and increases per 
capita cost to this extent. 
1912. 
Harlem State Farm — 
Cost per diem convict, 

AL, S .and clothing. .$0.7333 
Cost per diem convict, 
overhead expense sys- 
tem 19 



Per diem $0.9288 

Per month, mainte- 
nance, supplies and 
clot hing, including 
overhead charges . . . $27 864 

Imperial State Farm — 

Cost per diem convict 

AL. S. and clothing. .$0,596 



12 



Report and Findings of 



Cost per diem convict, 






N. A. Shaw Farm — 




overhead expense of 






Cost per diem convict, 




system 19 






maintenance, supplies 
and clothing $0,492 
















Per diem $0,786 






Cost per diem convict, 




Per month, m a i n t e- 






overhead charge of 




nance, supplies and 






system 19 




clot hing, including 










overhead charges . . . 


23 


58 


Per diem $0,682 




Ramsey State Farm — 






Per month, mainte- 




Cost per diem convict, 






nance, supplies and 




M., S. and clothing. .$0.68 






clot hing, including 




Cost per diem convict, 






overhead charges . . . 


20 46 


overhead expense sys- 






Lakeside Sugar R. Co. Share 


Farm — 


tem 19 






Cost per diem convict, 

M., S. and clothing. .$0,547 








Per diem $0.87 






Cost per diem convict, 




Per month, mainte- 






overhead charges sys- 




nance, supplies and 
clothing, plus over- 






tem 19 












head charges 


25 


10 


Per diem $0,737 




Clemens State Farm — 






Per month, mainte- 




Cost per diem convict, 






nance, supplies and 




M., S. and clothing. .$0,604 






clothing and over- 




Cost per diem convict, 






head charges 


22 11 


overhead charge sys- 






Bassett Blakely Lease Farm — 




tem 19 






Cost per diem convict, 
M., S. and clothing. .$0.64 








Per diem $0,794 






Cost per diem convict, 




Per month, mainte- 






overhead charges sys- 




nance, supplies and 






tem 19 




clothing and over- 










head charges 


23 


82 


Per diem $0.83 




Note. — Average per capita cost of 


con- 


Per month, m a i n t e- 




victs per month, including maintenance, 


nance, supplies and 






charge 


clothing and over- 




19 cents, $24,0978. 






head charges 


24 90 


1912. 






H. L. Trammell— 




Burleson & Johns Leased Farm- 




Cost per diem per con- 




Cost per diem convict 






vict, M., S. and cloth- 




M., S. and clothing. .$0.6348 






ing $0,487 

Cost per diem per con- 




Cost per diem convict, 








overhead expense sys- 






vict, overhead charges 




tem 19 






system 19 










Per diem $0.8248 


Per diem $0,677 




Per month, mainte- 






Per month, mainte- 




nance, supplies and 






nance, supplies and 




clothing, with over- 






clothing and over- 




h e a d charges in- 






head charges 


24 09 


cluded 


27 


745 


A A T\' +- ''U -. + !/->« f HTn-n 


T. W. House Leased Farm — 






Acreage and jJistriDUtion oi i 
These tables are taken from 


state- 


Cost per diem convict, 






ments submitted for the years 1911 and 


M. S. and clothing. .$0,723 






1912. The variation in acreage culti- 


Cost per diem convict, 






vated per capita can be accounted for 


overhead charges sys- 






only by the surplus men carried 


on the 


tem . . . : 19 






farms or by reason of considerable clear- 
ing of land and labor performed other 




Per diem $0,913 






than the actual operation of the 


farms. 


Per month, mainte- 






1911. 




nance, supplies and 






Acreage — State farms, 18,057 ; 


share 


clot hing, including 






farms, 25,363; contract farms, 


18,680. 


overhead charges . . . 


27 


09 


Total, 62,140. 





Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



13 



Number Men— State farms, 1000; 
share farms, 1059; contract farms. 605. 
Total, 2664. 

Acreage per Man — State farms, 18; 
share farms, 24; contract farms, 30.88. 

General average, 24 acres per man, 
1911. 

1912. 

Acreage— State, 21,218: leased, 7705; 
share, 6810; contract, 11,170. Total, 
36,993. 

Number Men, — State. 1951; leased, 
461: share, 416; contract, 43. Total, 
2871. 

Acreage per Man — State, 10.87; leased, 
16.88; share, 16.37; contract, 41. 

General average, 12.9 acres per man, 
1912. 

State Farms— 1912. 

Acreage — Harlem, 4570 : Clemens, 
4270: Imperial, 5233; Ramsey, 2773; 
Wynne, 355; Goree, 550. 

Xumber Men — Harlem. 207 : Clemens, 
215; Imperial, 282; Ramsey, 167; 
Wynee, 52; Goree, 52. 

Acreage per Man — Harlem, 22; Clem- 
ens, 19 6-7; Imperial, 18 5-9: Ramsev. 
16 5-8; Wynne, 6 4-5; Goree, 10 3-5. 

State Farms— 1912. 

Acreage — Harlem, 5093 : Clemens, 
4786: Imperial, 6037: Ramsev, 4045; 
Wynne, 291; Goree, 491. 

Xumber Men — Harlem, 385; Clemens, 
432; Imperial, 513; Ramsey, 421; 
Wynne, 88; Goree, 72. 

Acreage per Man — Harlem, 13; Clem- 
ens, 11; Imperial. 11 3-5: Ramsev. 9 1-2; 
Wynne, 3 1-2; Goree, 6 5-7. 

Report of A. M. Barton, September 1, 
1910, on State farms only; no others 
available. 

Acreage — Clemens. 4000 : Ramsev, 
3000; Imperial, 4500; Harlem, 3000. 

Xumber Men — Clemens. 344 : Ramsev, 
181; Imperial, 334; Harlem, 161. 

Acreage per Man — Clemens, 116-10; 
Ramsey, 16; Imperial. 13 1-2: Harlem, 
18 6-10, and 1000 acres leased. 

These tables of acreage cultivated in 
different years, in the judgment of the 
committee, present two facts demanding 
consideration. The first is the lament- 
able absence of any definite plan in the 
farm operations of the system, intended 
to utilize labor economically and effi- 
ciently; and the second is that, accord- 
ing to the testimony secured at the hear- 
ings, the control over the labor, under 
existing conditions, is so lax and ineffi- 
cient that it will be found extremely 
difficult to maintain a definite policy of 
operations approaching the real labor 
efficiency of the number of convicts em- 



ployed, both of which conditions must 
be improved before anything approach- 
ing satisfactory results may be expected. 
Increased Expenses and Losses Under 

the Xew Law. 

The fact that more or less of the in- 
crease in the cost of conducting the 
prison system has been charged directly 
and indirectly to the mandatory pro- 
visions of the new law, makes it essen- 
tial that we review the provisions of the 
statutes bearing directly upon the finan- 
cial operations of the system, and the 
labor efficiency of convicts. 

The largest single increase in expendi- 
tures required by the new law is that 
providing for the payment of 10 cents 
per day to convicts. This has aggre- 
gated from Januarv 20, 1911, to Decem- 
ber 31, 1912, $233,000.73. This sum in- 
cludes certain amounts allowed to life- 
time men under a decision of the At- 
torney General rendered since December 
31, 1912. 

The provision of the law limiting the 
number of hours convicts must work and 
making allowance for overtime to cooks 
and all other convicts, no matter what 
class of service they perform, has been 
responsible for an increase from Decem- 
ber 31, 1912, in the cost of the svstem 
of $50,777.10. 

The increase in the expense of the 
system through the change in manage- 
ment, as provided in Section 4 of the 
law, which refers to the Prison Commis- 
sioners, has been $7520 to the end of 
the year 1912. 

The creation of the offices of auditor, 
$2400; parole agent, $1500, and prison 
dentist, $1800, has resulted in an in- 
crease expense to December 31, 1912, of 
$11,400. 

The increased expenses caused by pro- 
vision for teachers and chaplains and 
increase of salaries of guards, stewards, 
and others, has amounted to approxi- 
mately $47,600. 

The increase of cost of handling new 
convicts, the new law requiring all con- 
victs to be sent direct to Huntsville, 
and later distributed, estimated to rep- 
resent an added expense of $5.00 for each 
convict, has been responsible for in- 
creased expenditures amounting to $12.- 
500. 

The provision requiring segregation of 
the women convicts is declared respon- 
sible for the increase in the expense of 
the system of about $2000, represented 
in additional pay of guards, physicians 
and chaplain. The law provides that 
convicts shall be furnished transporta- 



14 



Report and Findings of 



tion to any point in the State that they 
may eleet. The records show that in 

1910 there were 1049 men discharged, at 
an average per capita cost of $16.49 j 
while in 1911 there were 1129 men dis- 
charged at a per capita cost of $23.55, 
or an increase under the new law of 
$7.06 each man released. For the two 
years, 1911-12, this will represent an in- 
crease of approximately $15,000. 

This indicates a total mandatory in- 
crease in the penitentiary expenditures 
required by the new law amounting in 
the two years, 1911-12, to $379,791.73. 

When the new law was passed in 
August, 1910, the sentiment of the peo-^ 
pie having found expression in a de- 
mand for the abolition of the lease con- 
tract system, the prison officials imme- 
diately began the elimination of the sys- 
tem, and the records show that no re- 
lease has been renewed or a new one 
entered into since the passage of the 
present law. In anticipation of provid- 
ing for the employment of men who 
would be released by expirations of 
leases, the prison authorities in 1910 
made contracts for a number of share 
farms; such contracts being for the 
farms of Imperial Sugar Co.; Elkins & 
Gibson, Burleson & Johns, Bassett 
Blakely, Delia Eastham, B. A Eastham, 
Dew Bros., Lakeside Sugar Co., H. L. 
Trammell, and N. A. Shaw, a total of 
24,533 acres; to run one and two years. 

These share farm contracts proved un- 
profitable in 1911; the losses as deter- 
mined by the special audit made by cer- 
tified public accountant, F. J. Huey, be- 
ing $154,457.81. 

At the expiration of these share farm 
contracts in 1911, the Prison Commis- 
sion discontinued the share farm policy 
and adopted the policy of leasing from 
private parties for money rent, with op- 
tions to give part of the crop, for such 
additional lands as were needed to em- 
ploy the men available for farm work. 
The farms so leased in 1912 included 
10,300 acres, on contracts for one to 
five years. 

According to the audit of the prison 
system accounts by Accountant Huey 
for the year 1912 the losses on these 
lease farms were shown to have been 
$75,475.24. 

Acreage considered, the losses under 
the lease farm policy were approxi- 
mately the same as the losses under the 
share farm plan. 

The prison system was unfortunate in 

1911 in experiencing two fires — a fire 
at Huntsville on December 4, 1911, caus- 
ing injury to buildings of $133,375; to 



machinery of $62,550.75, and to products 
of $61,006; a total loss to the property 
account at Huntsville of $256,931.75; 
also a fire at Rusk in 1911, entailing a 
loss to buildings of $25,000, and of ma- 
terial $5000; a total loss to the prop- 
erty account of the system of $286,- 
931.75. 

In 1911, by all of the testimony avail- 
able to the committee, there must have 
been the largest cane crop South Texas 
has had for many years. The prison sys- 
tem had a considerable crop that year — 
12,370 acres — evidenced by the fact that, 
notwithstanding the heavy losses from 
freeze, the receipts from the crop for 
1911 were greater by $48,004.84 than for 
1912, when the system gathered and 
marketed all of the yield. 

When the present law was passed in 
August, 1910, there were 1046 men un- 
der lease contract. When the new law 
became effective January 20, 1911, the 
number under lease was 883; of this 
number 711 were being worked by the 
contractors on farms and 172 on rail- 
roads. These leases were with the fol- 
lowing persons: John D. Rogers, con- 
tract to expire January 31, 1912, but 
canceled November 15, 1912, because the 
contractor represented he did not need 
the men longer and desired to be re- 
leased. W. T. Eldridge, contract expir- 
ing December 31, 1911. A. P. Borden, 
contract expiring December 31, 1911. 
Dew Brothers, contract expiring Decem- 
ber 31, 1911. Dyer and Bertrand, con- 
tract expiring December 31, 1911. T. B. 
Henderson, contract expiring December 
31, 1911, but canceled June 26, 1911, 
upon contractor's representation that the 
labor was unsatisfactory and his re- 
quest to be released. W. L. Steele, con- 
tract expiring December 31, 1911, but 
canceled November 20, 1911, the con- 
tractor representing that he no longer 
desired the men. C. G. Wood, contract 
expiring December 31, 1911. Adams 
Brothers, contract expiring December 31, 
1911. G., C. & S. F. Ry. Co., contract 
expiring December 31, 1911. Sugarland 
Ry., contract expiring December 31, 

1911. T. W. House, contract expiring 
December 31, 1911. 

The amount collected by the present 
Prison Commission from leased labor 
contracts expiring since January 20, 

1912, was for contracts expiring in 1911, 
$196,291.99; and for 1912, $14,094.33: 
a total of $210,386.52. 

If it be desired to make further com- 
parison of the revenues from lease labor 
contracts, the records show that for the 
years 1907-8 the State received $890.- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



15 



595.36. For 1909-10 the receipts from 
leased labor contracts amounted to $805,- 
117.30. Or, the difference in receipts 
from leased contracts between 1909-10, 
and 1911-12, of $594,730.78. Or a dif- 
ference for the preceding two years of 
$680,208.84. 

Inasmuch as the loss revenue from 
the lease of convicts has been cited as 
an important factor contributing to the 
present indebtedness of the prison sys- 
tem, the committe, after much thought, 
has concluded that it is justified in dis- 
cussing briefly the collateral facts of the 
abolition of the lease policy. When the 
present law was before the Legislature, 
and even after the provision for contin- 
uing the lease system until January 1, 
1914, was incorporated, the bill, as it 
left the Senate, carried an appropriation 
of $500,000 for the purpose of supplant- 
ing the loss of revenue which it was 
supposed would necessarily 'follow up a 
statutory declaration in opposition to 
the lease system, and from the wide- 
spread feeling of antagonism to the 
lease system throughout the State. This 
proposed appropriation was reduced in 
the House of Representatives to $200,- 
000, and later, according to best infor- 
mation available, eliminated entirely to 
secure Executive approval for the law. 
This was during the Special Session of 
the Thirty-first Legislature, convened 
August, 1910. 

When the present prison authorities 
assumed control of the penitentiary sys- 
tem, they found 883 convicts under lease, 
for which the State was receiving pay 
at the rate of $29 and $31 per month. 
Following the policy begun by the au- 
thorities in 1910, after the passage of 
the law, the present Prison Commission 
took official action abolishing the con- 
vict lease plan on May 20, 1911, as dis- 
closed in the minutes of the official pro- 
ceedings of the Commission. In the ab- 
sence of an appropriation of sufficient 
amount to carry the penitentiary over 
the period of transition in policy from 
the lease to the ownership of farms, we 
are compelled to believe the intent of the 
Legislature in leaving the provision for 
an extension of the lease plan to 1914 
was to provide revenues which could not 
be secured by appropriations, and that, 
although the will of the people seemed 
to demand abolition of the policy, finan- 
cial expediency dictated its sufferance 
for three years more. 

The committee conceives these to be 
the facts; and in dismissing this feature 
of its investigation does not feel called 
upon to express an opinion as to whether 



or not, under all the circumstances, of 
facing a known loss of revenue of con- 
siderable proportion on the one hand, 
and the certain knowledge that public 
opinion, crystallized from the agitation 
in 1909-11, favoring the earliest possible 
abolition of the convict leases, the lease 
policy should have been continued for 
the three years indicated by the law. 
Two observations, however, the commit- 
tee feels pertinent: The first of which 
is that when the State is moved to the 
extent of declaring for a change of pol- 
icy in the name of humanitarianism, it 
should display the practical humanitari- 
anism of providing the reasonable cost 
of the inauguration of such policy; and 
the second observation is that as long 
as the purely business management of 
State institutions is subjected to the 
exigencies of popular expression, busi- 
ness considerations will be eclipsed by 
subservience to popular acclaim. 

It has been charged that the provision 
of the law limiting the hours of labor, 
together with the suspension of the long- 
used method of punishment in the peni- 
tentiary — the strap — has resulted in de- 
creasing the productive efficiency of con- 
vict labor in a very large degree. The 
inquiries of the committee concerning 
this feature of the law were extended, 
and though the testimony was practi- 
cally unanimous in declaring that the 
effect of the law has been to increase the 
cost to the penitentiary system of its 
convict labor there was considerable di- 
versity of opinion as to the extent of 
such diminution in the value of labor in 
the prison system to the various enter- 
prises and activities conducted by the 
system. The committee has given much 
thought to this phase of the law, and to 
the representations made regarding its 
effect upon prison system operations, 
and are convinced that the law has op- 
erated to measurably decrease the effi- 
ciency of the men engaged in productive 
labor in the prison system, but to what 
extent the limitations on the hours of 
labor and its unresponsiveness to the 
special requirements of the different ac- 
tivities of the system is responsible for 
the increase in the cost of the main- 
tenance and -operating of the prison sys- 
tem, the committee has no reliable means 
of determining. 

The Penitentiary Is Part of State Gov- 
ernment. 

Our penitentiary system may be com- 
pared to a great diversified business in- 
dustry involving the investment of over 



16 



Report and Findings of 



four millions of dollars. In this respect 
it is a plain business proposition call- 
ing for strictly business administration 
regardless of all other considerations. 
Every citizen is a stockholder and has 
an interest, not only in its intelligent 
management, but in addition thereto, in 
the proper care and training of the four 
thousand human souls involved. The 
best business brain available should be 
secured and placed in charge regardless 
of political affiliation or place of resi- 
dence. The hope of our penitentiary 
system lies in the selection of compe- 
tent, non-partisan management absol- 
utely divorced from every consideration 
other than modern business principles to 
be applied in co-operation with humane 
control of our convict wards. As a 
State, we are confronted with the prob- 
lem of utilizing the tabor of these four 
thousand convicts so as to make it self- 
sustaining, if it can be done, without 
the sacrifice of humanitarian considera- 
tions. If this cannot be done, then the 
problem resolves itself into one of re- 
ducing the loss to a minimum. If the 
exigencies of circumstances demand it, 
we can rightfully sacrifice dollars for 
humanity's sake, but not for private or 
public reward or gain. One of the prin- 
cipal causes, and probably the main 
cause, leading up to present conditions, 
can be charged to the idea, almost uni- 
versal in penitentiary circles, that the 
penal system is a law unto itself. And, 
indeed, for many years it has been 
treated as an outlying province, respon- 
sible to no one but itself. Prior to the 
enactment of the present statute, its 
revenues had not been required to be 
paid into the State Treasury, as were 
the revenues of all other departments, 
and the idea had become fixed that such 
revenues belong to the system for 'the 
system to dispose of at will and with- 
out the interference of legislative au- 
thority. 

Such doctrine is both dangerous and 
demoralizing. No institution owned by 
the State should be permitted, even for 
a day, to pass from under the control 
and direction of the State. Such a pol- 
icy is unwise both toward the State and 
toward the institution. Money comes 
too easily and is expended too recklessly. 
Relieved of legislative limitation and re- 
view, the only question is, how much 
money will be available, and even this is 
anticipated. Industries are inaugurated, 
and expensive buildings erected to suit 
the ideas of the management in author- 
ity, which may be entirely changed by 
the succeeding one. 



Elements Entering Into the Present 

Financial Condition of the System 

as of Date January 20, 1911, to 

January 1, 1913. 

Loss from operation — farms 

$ 820,326 37 

Advanced account opera- 
tion — State Railroad 49,670 42 

Expenditures — partial res- 
toration account fires... 86,100 00 

Per diem to convicts re- 
quired by law, paid 90,162 02 

Unpaid account for 1911, 

cane 78,734 57 

Per diem to convicts re- 
quired by law, unpaid. . . 142,838 71 

Construction of houses and 
furnishing same, for offi- 
cers and employes, ap- 
proximately 35,000 00 

Increase in salaries, author- 
ized by law 7,520 00 

Increase in salaries, author- 
ized by law, 1911, auditor, 
dentist and parole agent 11,400 00 

Interest on bills payable 

and taxes, unpaid 36,455 04 

Overtime to December 31, 

1912 50,777 10 

Increase expense account, 
chaplain, teachers, and 
increased salary of stew- 
ards and guards, for 
two years 47,600 00 

Increase transportation, 
cost due to concentrat- 
ing all convicts at 
Huntsville, estimated $5 
per convict 12,500 00 

Segregation of women con- 
victs; additional guards' 
salary, matron, physi- 
cian and chaplain 2,000 00 

Increased cost of transpor- 
tation, account released 
convicts 15,000 00 

Total $1,486,084 23 

The records of the system show that 
improvements have been made upon the 
several farms and at Huntsville and 
Rusk during the period between Jan- 
uary 20, 1911, and May 1, 1913, repre- 
senting an outlay' of $589,871.48. While 
accounting for expenditure to this 
amount, this sum can not be considered 
in determining indebtedness resulting 
from the impositions of the new law, 
but would rather be considered as inci- 
dental to the change of policy from the 
convict lease and share system to direct 
operations of farms. 

The committee has no reason to ques- 
tion the amounts indicated having been 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



17 



expended for the purpose of improve- 
ment, but it is apparent that the sys- 
tem of accounting and checking upon 
the use of materials purchased for im- 
provement purposes renders it extreme- 
ly difficult, if not impossible, to deter- 
mine the value of such improvements by 
the cost of materials. Portions of mate- 
rials ordered for one farm or purpose 
are often moved to other farms and used 
for other purposes, with no system for 
showing these facts. All expenditures 
for improvements are merely charged to 
the particular account but not charged 
to the different buildings for which the 
material is bought. 

The testimony, in reply to interroga- 
tions intended to disclose the amount of 
increased cost due to the fact that the 
prison system has been operating on 
credit, varies. All agree, however, that 
a considerable portion of the present in- 
debtedness is due to this fact. Consid- 
ering the magnitude of the operations of 
the system this amount of increased 
cost could, covering a period of two 
years, easily approximate $100,000. It 
is also worthy of comment that the loss 
of revenue, resulting from the abroga- 
tion of the policy of leasing convicts, 
comparing the receipts from this source 
for the years 1911 and 1912, with those 
for the years 1909 and 1910, amounts 
to $584,740.78. There can be no doubt 
that these items, which items are fac- 
tors in creation of present conditions. 

Factors in Increased Cost. 

The committee has endeavored to re- 
solve all influence, contributing in any 
measure to the cost of conducting the 
prison system under the new law into 
definite financial terms, assigning to 
each provision of the law, each policy, 
and each act of management the degree 
of responsibility that appears just. We 
have reviewed the effect of mandatory 
provisions of the law where the statutes 
express the increase in terms, as the 
per diem for convicts, for example, and 
have commented on other conditions uni- 
versally conceded as exerting an influ- 
ence but which are impossible of exact 
determination, such as the restrictions 
of hours of labor, and difference in phys- 
ical ability of the convict. There re- 
mains to be considered the degree in 
which the policies adopted by the prison 1 
management have been responsible for 
increasing the cost of conducting the 
system. 

The bill creating the Commission was 
passed amid a contest of partisan influ- 
ences for its control, and became a law 
under conditions recognizing a standard 



of public service prevailing throughout 
the whole of the past history of the 
penitentiary, that each administration 
held the right, by virtue of success, to- 
determine new policies in the conduct 
of the institution, and to place in charge- 
of the execution of such policies only 
those who could be expected to support 
and execute them. 

Creating a Commission of divided au- 
thority, a provision in itself inevitably 
productive of differences in judgment, 
causing expensive delays in business ad- 
ministration ; handicapped by the un- 
broken precedence recognizing and de- 
manding substitution not only of meth- 
ods of management, but of men; and 
further handicapped by a condition of 
finances compelling them to seek credit 
from whatever source it might be ob- 
tained, and for which condition the Com- 
mission could only be considered par- 
tially responsible, the terms of the law 
and the attendant circumstances have 
served to contribute to, rather than pre- 
vent, deeds of omission and commission 
each adding in a greater or lesser de- 
gree toward the creation of present con- 
ditions. 

That the acts of the Commission might 
command popular approval would appear 
to have been the controlling cause for 
the order abolishing the lease system in 
1911, rather than at the close of 1913 y 
the time limit fixed by law, despite the 
financial needs of the penitentiary. 

Local influences, long recognized as a 
potential factor in prison management,, 
have been permitted, if not directly en- 
couraged to prevail to an undue extent,, 
a notable instance of which is found m 
an order of the Commission that the 
Rusk penitentiary should be built up and 
given similar consideration to Hunts- 
ville, and that apparently without refer- 
ence to the best interests or needs of the 
penitentiary system. 

Reduction in the number of employes 
should have been made, illustrating 
which, although the number of trusties 
has been largely increased, there has 
been no decrease in the number of guards 
employed. Also, there should be a re- 
duction in the number of convicts as- 
signed to wait on system employes and 
convict forces in and about the various 
departments of the system, and these 
surplus men should have been employed 
in productive labor. In various instances 
better men might have been employed, 
and the services of others not in harmony 
with the general spirit of the present 
law should have been dispensed with, 
which would have operated to the finan- 



18 



Report and Findings of 



eial advantage and the better discipline 
of the system. 

While the farms have been equipped 
with mules of good quality, animals rep- 
resenting an investment of one-third less 
than the amount actually expended, 
would be equally, if not more, serviceable 
to prison system work. Most of these 
mules appear to have been bought on 
credit and the prices of $225 to $275 re- 
flect an expenditure far above reasonable 
requirements, as well as those conditions 
which usually prevail in credit transac- 
tions. On this single item of purchase 
of mules, it is the judgment of the com- 
mittee that approximately $40,000 might 
have been saved to the prison system. 

The building and remodeling of 
houses for employes both at Huntsville 
and Rusk, some of which were not re- 
quired by the statutes, and the furnish- 
ing of such residences appear to have 
been more liberal than a due regard for 
the financial condition of the system 
would justify; approximately $35,000 
having been expended on residences and 
furnishings at Huntsville in 1911. Resi- 
dences were furnished a number of em- 
ployes without authority of the law, rent 
free, until about January 1, 1913, and 
the rents now collected are not commen- 
surate with the cost of such buildings. 

In view of its location, the limited 
acreage of cane land, and the known un- 
favorable conditions surrounding the 
making of sugar, the expenditures on the 
Clemens sugar mill amounting in the 
two yeasr, 1911-12, to $75,000. can only 
be characterized as an inexcusable error 
of judgment and an unjustifiable expendi- 
ture of public funds. Lack of proper at- 
tention to important details of manage- 
ment has been responsible for the fail- 
ure of the Commission to practice many 
economies, one illustration of which is 
found in the delay in constructing a cot- 
ton gin on the Ramsey farm in 1911, or 
provisions for moving the crop to a gin, 
with a consequent loss estimated to be 
$18,000, as shown by the testimony, to 
which reference is made ; and another in 
the continued operation of an expensive 
power plant at Rusk, after the last fire, 
to run a box factory and furnish light 
for the city of Rusk, both at a material 
loss to the prison system approximating 
$150 a month. 

The testimony of the manager of the 
Rusk Box Factory, to which reference is 
here made, shows the entire output of 
the fa.ctory is being marketed in Cuba 
at a price 15 to 20 ner cent below 
that secured by other manufacturers 
from the Texas trade. This action was 



taken because of the protest made by 
a few box makers who objected to prison 
competition. Such a policy in the judg- 
ment of the committee is not only with- 
out justification from any point of view, 
but experience in the management of 
prison factories should serve to indicate 
the certainty that this box factory is 
being conducted at a continuous loss for 
this reason. Financial independence can 
not be expected from any penitentiary 
enterprise conducted in accordance with 
such a policy. 

Such errors of management contribut- 
ing to the expense of operation of the 
prison system, to which attention is 
hereby directed, cover practically the 
whole range of activities of the system 
and the aggregate of such losses and un- 
justifiable expenditures enters in a mate- 
rial degree into the present financial con- 
ditions. 

Attention is directed to the extraor- 
dinary circumstances in connection with 
the lease and operation of the fourteen 
hundred acres known as the Ransome 
tract, situated adjoining the Harlem 
State farm. This tract is practically 
all in cultivation and under lease to the 
State for a period of three years, with 
privileges of extension for an additional 
five years, on terms of one-fourth of the 
crop. Upon this leased land the Prison 
Commission has expended between eight- 
een and twenty thousand dollars, in 
permanent improvements. The State 
holds an option to purchase this land at 
a price of fifty dollars per acre, said 
option having been provided for in the 
contract of lease. No doubt the improve- 
ments, including a prison building, re- 
pairs to residences, ditching, road build- 
ing, etc., were made based upon expection 
to purchase. The testimony of the farm 
commissioners is to the effect that these 
improvements were made upon an agree- 
ment that the owner would pay one- 
fourth the cost of same, and the prison 
system three-fourths, or, upon the termi- 
nation of the lease, and in the event the 
State did not purchase the land, the 
owner would pay for the improvements 
at 50 per cent of cost. 

An examination of the contract of 
lease, and the correspondence between the 
Prison Commissioners and the owner of 
this property fails to disclose any agree- 
ment between the contracting parties 
whereby the State is protected for any 
reimbursement whatever for these im- 
provements should the Prison Commis- 
sion fail to purchase under the terms of 
the option. 

However, this committee emphatically 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



19 



disapproves of the expenditures of the 
State's money upon private property 
and insists that permanent improvements 
be confined to lands to which the State 
has title. Furthermore, we emphatically 
urge that in all future transactions in- 
volving the purchase or lease of lands 
that the State deal with the owner direct. 

The Eighteenth Legislature (Section 
4, Chapter 114),' declared it to be "the 
duty of the Penitentiary Board to con- 
fine all convicts within the walls of the 
penitentiary as soon as suitable prisons 
can be provided for their confinement and 
employment in such manner that they 
will be self-supporting;" and further, 
"that the Penitentiary Board may at any 
time, if they deem it advisable, purchase 
a penitentiary farm or farms upon which 
all convicts, not self-supporting, may be 
worked by the State." 

Since this declaration of the Legis- 
lature, there has been expended by the 
State under share farm and lease con- 
tracts, sufficient money and labor if 
judiciously directed, to 'have secured for 
the State" in the days when land was 
cheap, ample prpperty for the system 
and to have improved such properties 
with all necessary substantial buildings. 
Yet after all this time the State is con- 
tinuing the policy of paying large sums 
of money to private parties in rents, 
while using the prison labor in enhanc- 
ing the value of such privately owned 
lands. 

• Note. — This committee has received, on 
July 19, after the formulation of its 
report, a report made by Auditor John 
M. Moore to Your Excellency, and trans- 
mitted by you to the committee, giving 
the findings of Auditor Moore in his in- 
vestigation concerning the transactions 
for the lease, with option to purchase, 
of the R. F. Ransome tract of land; but 
at this, late date the committee is un- 
able to enter into any investigation of 
the facts and can oniy embody the re- 
port in the records and direct attention 
thereto. 

Inventory. 

The audit of F. J. Huey, January 20, 
1911, presents the inventory as also an 
appraisal of the penitentiary properties 
at the time the present Prison Commis- 
sion assumed control of the system, the 
inventory and appraisal being an agreed 
one between the retiring board and the 
Prison Commission. This inventory in- 
dicates a valuation of prison properties 
amounting to $3,445,000.32, to which 
must be added the operating and inven- 
torv of $395,662.66, or "a total of 
$3,840,662.98. 



It was not contemplated that the com- 
mittee would undertake to inventory and 
appraise the prison system properties, 
nevertheless, we have visited all of the 
properties of the system with the excep- 
tion of certain small tracts of land in 
Cherokee county, and find the system to 
be possessed of the following property. 
The valuations of the different items 
contained herein are book values of De- 
cember 31, 1912, and may be. found in 
the special audit of the prison system 
of that date. 

Book value Dec. 31, 1912. 
Buildings at Huntsville, in- 
cluding furniture, power 

plant and laundry $ 389,970 19 

Real estate, Huntsville, in- 
cluding properties on 
which main buildings are 
erected and 100 acres 

near town 37,400 00 

Seven residences at Hunts- 
ville 45,262 25 

Live stock, Huntsville . . . 4,264 10 

Blacksmith shop and wagon 
factory machinery and 

equipment 58,031 05 

Shoe shop machinery and 

equipment 3,130 00 

Tailor shop machinery and 

equipment 2,026 83 

Cabinet shop machinery and 

equipment 3,569 38 

Rusk penitentiary prop- 
erty (this includes 4200 
acres land in Cherokee 

county) 493,870 85 

Rusk penitentiary box fac- 
tory, installed 1912 30,567 99 

Rusk penitentiary live 

stock 5,371 80 

Clemens farm property, 
8212 acres (this inven- 
tory includes Clemens 
sugar mill, gin and saw- 
mill, four sets camp 
buildings, 7^ miles rail- 
way from sugar mill to 
Brazoria, and about 8 
miles standard gauge 
tram railroad through 

the farm) 771,267 52 

Clemens farm live stock. . . 41,070 20 
Harlem farm property, 
3740 acres (this includes 
Harlem sugar and syrup 
mill, two camps, and in- 
cludes the camp on, the 
Ransome leased farm ad- 
joining; a new dairy 
building. 3 miles stand- 
ard gauge railway con- 
necting sugar mill with 
Southern Pacific Rail- 



20 



Report and Findings of 



way, and 15 miles narrow 

gauge tram railway 

through the farm) 508,584 42 

Harlem farm live stock... 46,108 73 
Imperial farm property • 

5235 acres (this includes 

three complete sets camp 

buildings) 316,572 30 

Imperial farm live stock.. 46,515 85 
Ramsey • farm property, 

7762 acres (this includes 

four complete camp 

buildings, sawmill and 

gin) 437,565 08 

Ramsey farm live stock . . 44,326 84 
Wynne farm property, 2000 

acres (this includes be- 
sides complete main 

camp buildings, hospital 

building for consump- 
tives and building for 

the incurables) 28,678 93 

Wynne farm live stock. . . . 2,137 15 

Goree farm property, 1000 

acres (this includes one 

set camp buildings with 

separate house for white 

women convicts ) ...... 22,255 80 

Goree farm live stock 2,018 34 

Texas State Railroad 527,382 64 



.876.161 49 



To this is to be added the 
operating and equipment 
inventory on December 
31, 1912", of 481,617 18 



$4,357,778 67 

This shows a difference in 
the inventory of 1911 and 
the book values of Jan- 
uary 1, 1913, of $ 517,115 69 

The losses by fire neces- 
sarily reduced the prop- 
erty values in the sum of 
the loss actually sus- 
tained; the loss has been 
estimated to be $ 286,802 95 

Values have been added to the acreage 
in the different farms, presumably 
based on the amounts invested in im- 
provements on the land. Taking the 
Ramsey farm as an illustration, this 
farm was purchased in 1907 at a price 
of $13.75 and appraised in the audit of 
January 20, 1911, at $36.06. Distribut- 
ing among the different farms the total 
of the investments claimed to have been 
made in clearing land and ditching, the 
actual sums that may be added to the 
value of the acreage on each farm would 
be as follows: Clemens farm, $4.02 per 
acre; Harlem farm, $9.05; Imperial 
farm, $5.97, and Ramsey farm, $7.73. 



State Railroads. 

As the history of State ownership of 
railroads has been identified with the 
penitentiary system in the past, the 
committee deems it proper to review the 
record of the construction and opera- 
tion of these properties. 

In the years from 1894 to 1896, 4.73 
miles of railroad were built from the 
Rusk penitentiary to lands owned by the 
State lying between Rusk and Pales- 
tine. Later, additional trackage was 
added until by 1907 seven additional 
miles of road had been built. This road 
was constructed with convict labor and 
is estimated to have cost approximately 
$43,431.20, the labor being charged at 
50 cents per day. The loss from oper- 
ations is not ascertainable, though it is 
shown by the records that expenditures 
from 1907 to 1908 exceeded receipts in 
the sum of $11,281.75. During the 
years 1907, 1908 and 1909 the line was 
extended into Palestine, making a line 
31.5 miles long, the total cost of which 
aggregated $530,382.64. Since the com- 
pletion of the road to Palestine the 
loss from operations would approximate 
$45,000. There is no means of deter- 
mining to any degree of certainty the 
cost of repairs on the road from the 
time the first mileage was constructed; 
but it is estimated that the sum of 
$250,000 will be required to put the 
track in good condition and to construct 
substantial bridges. The testimony ad- 
duced in the hearing of the committee 
indicates that the road is now being 
operated at an average loss of $800 per 
month. The valuation placed upon the 
property by the Railroad Commission is 
$577,899.13. 

The committee further instituted in- 
quiries into the possible development of 
traffic along the route of the road and 
must say that there seems little encour- 
agement for expecting a material in- 
crease in the volume of business that 
could be developed, certainly within a 
very long time. The Thirty-first Legis- 
lature authorized the sale of the road 
at a price not less than the valuation 
placed upon the property by the Rail- 
road Commission, but there has been no 
time when there seemed the remotest 
prospect of making a sale at these fig- 
ures. Inasmuch as the Regular Session 
of the Thirty-third Legislature removed 
the management of the Rusk Railroad 
from under the control of the Prison 
Commission, the committee is confining 
its statements concerning the property 
to the amount it has cost the State 
while under penitentiary control; fur- 



PENITENTIARY INVESTIGATING COMMITTEE. 



21 



nishing one more illustration of the 
profligate expenditure of public funds 
on experimental propositions made with- 
out regard to business or financial con- 
sideration. 

The Ramsey Railway. 

When the prison management bought 
the Ramsey farm in Brazoria county, a 
condition of the purchase was that the 
parties owning the land were to build 
seven miles' of standard gauge railroad 
from the Ramsey farm to Archer, a sta- 
tion on the International & Great North- 
ern Railroad; or, . failing to do this 
within a specified time, to forfeit the 
sum of $15,000 to the prison system. 
The $15,900 was forfeited, and the State 
built the seven miles of railroad at a 
cost estimated by Judge W. H. Gill, 
Chairman of the Prison Board, during 
the year in which the road was con- 
structed, of $48,000, using convict labor, 
which did not include the cost of such 
labor, or a total cost to the system ap- 
proximating $72,000. This road was 
sold September 4, 1909, including the 
right of way, which did not enter into 
the cost estimated by Judge Gill, at a 
price of $32,500, A valuation of this 
property placed upon it by the engineer 
of the Railroad Commission indicates its 
probable value at the time of sale to 
to have been $76,294.25. 

This road was built for the purpose 
of moving the cane crop from the Ram- 
sey State farm to the sugar mill on the 
Clemens farm by a reasonably direct 
route. Under the terms of sale, the 
purchasers were allowed to discontinue 
the operation of the railroad upon the 
completion of a northern railway con- 
nection with the Ramsey farm, and when 
such connection was completed the oper- 
ation of the line from Ramsey south- 
ward to Anchor was discontinued, thus 
again making it unprofitable, and prac- 
tically impossible, to grind the Ramsey 
farm cane at the Clemens mill. 

There can be no doubt that one of the 
moving considerations for the purchase 
of the Ramsey farm by the State at the 
price specified in the contract was the 
agreement of the then owners of the 
farm to construct, or have constructed, 
a standard gauge railway from Ramsey 
to Anchor. The stipulations in the said 
contract of sale relieving the vendors 
from the obligation of building this rail- 
road for the nominal sum of $15,000 was 
insufficient to protect the State in its 
rio-htful expectation, of having the road 
instructed, as results proved, the State 
1 HnQ- compelled to build the road. 



The stipulation in this contract of 
sale providing for the release of the 
vendors from the obligation to construct 
said railway upon forfeiture to the State 
of the sum of $15,000, and of which the 
vendors availed themselves, should not 
have been agreed to by those whose duty 
it was to protect the State. As might 
have been foreseen, the forfeiture of this 
sum relieved the vendors, while impos- 
ing upon the State the burden of the 
cost of construction of said road, 
amounting to approximately $72,000. 
As above stated, this railroad was sold 
for $32,500 shortly after its construc- 
tion, involving a loss of $39,500 in ad- 
dition to defeating the very purpose of 
its construction. The testimony of Mr. 
Bassett Blakely, to which reference is 
made, and the recorded instrument, 
show that possession of this property 
was secured by the State's vendor in 
1906 at $5.00 per acre and sold to the 
State in 1908 at $13.75 per acre. 

This transaction illustrates the long- 
continued neglect manifest throughout 
the whole history of the prison system 
of the agents of the State in properly 
safeguarding the permanent interests of 
the system^ and indicates with convinc- 
ing force the lack of any stable mana- 
gerial policy in the conduct of peniten- 
tiary affairs. 

The experience of the State in the 
construction and operation of railroads 
presents a continuous record of financial 
disaster. 

General Policy — Recommendations. 

The committee views the establishment 
of penitentiaries as an act of organized 
society to protect its members. Every 
act in connection with the control of 
the persons sentenced to confinement in 
the penitentiary is dictated and justified 
only by the necessity of society protect- 
ing the integrity of its institutions and 
social and moral standards. Restraint 
of liberty, without effort to work refor- 
mation of conduct and development of 
character, is the expedient of primitive 
people, and is not indicative of prin- 
ciples founded in an enlightened Chris- 
tian civilization. 

It follows, therefore, that those re- 
moved from the body of society for the 
common good and restrained of their 
liberty, become a charge upon society 
as a whole. The employment of these 
persons in productive labor is really in- 
cidental to the purpose to teach them 
the necessity for their own. as well as 
the common good, of upholding social 



22 



Report and Findings of 



order. To occupy the minds and hands 
of men in useful work is .practical hu- 
manitarianism and essential to secure 
the best results in the exercise of re- 
formatory influences. 

The Texas penitentiary, with its four 
thousand inmates, represents under its 
present organizatin, a fixed charge upon 
the public. It is not probable that if 
the prison system is administered upon 
the basis necessary to, and promising the 
best results for society, it will ever be 
financially dependent in all its branches 
or units. The task confronting the 
State is to establish conditions which 
will serve the well-being of society to 
the maximum, while reducing the bur- 
den of maintenance of the penitentiary 
to the minimum. 

We believe the spirit of our criminal 
statutes to be that persons violating the 
rules of organized society should be re- 
strained of their liberty : ( 1 ) to main- 
tain the security of life and property; 
(2) to deter others from like wrongful 
conduct; and (3) to teach such willful 
disturbers of public order the error of 
their acts and thus lead the way to 
moral reformation. This is in accord 
with the expression contained in Article 
2 of the Penal Code of Texas, which de- 
clares: "The object of punishment is to 
punish crime and reform the offender." 

We believe the Criminal Statutes 
should be revised, to the end that a 
greater degree of uniformity shall result 
in convictions for similar offenses, it be- 
ing our judgment that a prolific source 
of discontent among convicts is the ab- 
surd and often outrageous inequalities in 
sentences imposed for like infractions of 
the law. ' We would further urge such 
revision in the Criminal Statutes to the 
end that all persons guilty of offenses 
against the law, whose correction and 
reformation may be achieved by methods 
less drastic and humiliating should not 
be sentenced to confinement in the peni- 
tentiary. To that end we would earnest- 
ly recommend that youths under the age 
of twenty-one, mentally and morally ca- 
pable of receiving proper educational 
training, should not be sentenced to- the 
penitentiary, but committed to a reforma- 
tory; and that youths of the same age 
be segregated from older convicts. 

We believe the State owes to the per- 
sons convicted of crime and sentenced to 
the penitentiary the humane treatment 
of wholesome food, comfortable cloth- 
ing and shelter, healthful surroundings 
and moral instructions. 

We believe the spirit and the letter of 
the law, as well as the just attitude of 



the public towards those sentenced to 
prison, to be that the State has the 
right to demand that the labor of the 
convict shall be given honestly and will- 
ingly together with the exercise of such 
measure of intelligence as he may pos- 
sess. 

The State, as the representative of or- 
ganized society, owes to society as a 
means of protecting its integrity, the 
further duty of employing all practicable 
and available methods for" the moral 
reformation of those convicted of viola- 
tions of the rules of established gov- 
ernment; and in those cases in which 
there seems reasonable hope for good re- 
sults, we believe the State will be per- 
forming a valuable service to society by 
providing means for teaching to its con- 
victs such ordinary useful occupations 
as are likely to furnish employment to 
the men after their release from prison. 

We believe the State should adopt a 
general fixed policy in the conduct of its 
prison system to such extent as may be 
feasible. If it be determined advisable 
to employ a certain class of convicts in 
manufacturing industries, those indus- 
tries should be carefully selected and ade- 
quate provision made for carrying them 
out upon the most advantageous plans, 
and a business-like system of marketing 
the products established. It should be 
determined to what extent the State will 
engage in farming and the necessary pro- 
visions should be made for conducting 
such operations upon the most profit- 
able lines. 

The committee has given careful at- 
tention to both the manufacturing and 
the farming operations of the system in 
the past, and although the industrial en- 
terprises heretofore undertaken have 
proven unsuccessful, and years of experi- 
mental work and considerable expense 
may be necessary to determine what class 
of manufactories are best suited to the- 
requirements of the system as affording 
useful instruction and financial inde- 
pendence, the fact that indoor work af- 
fords better opportunities for the exer- 
cise of. reformatory influences, has led 
us to the conclusion that the best results 
in the operation of the prison system will 
be secured from the adoption of a definite 
policy looking to the employment eventu- 
ally of the greater part of the white con- 
victs in manufacturing enterprises. 

At this time there are approximately 
four thousand convicts, between 65 and 
70 per cent of whom are negroes and 
Mexicans. The limited capacity of these 
races to acquire technical knowledge, and 
the extreme improbability that they 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



23 



would, or could to any appreciable ex- 
tent, make use of such knowledge after 
release as well as their general adapta- 
bility to farm work, indicate the advisa- 
bility of the adoption of a policy that 
will provide for employing the negro and 
Mexican convicts on farms and in work 
connected with farm operations. 

We would make a distinction in the 
manufacturing industries between chose 
that may, for special reasons, be consid- 
ered essential, without regard to the fact 
that a small loss may result from their 
operations, and those that may be carried 
on as a matter of policy. As a result of 
our investigation, we would recommend 
as essential manufacturing industries: 
A tailor shop; a shoe shop, also making 
harness for the system, and a blacksmith 
shop and wagon factory. 

In the case of the tailor shop, the de- 
mand for clothing is so constant and 
varied as to quantities and kind, and la- 
bor that could scarcely be used to ad- 
vantage otherwise, can be utilized in a 
tailor shop, that this factory is deemed 
a necessary one. 

While it seems reasonably certain 
shoes can always be bought at lower 
prices than the prison system can make 
them, we believe it advisable to continue 
their manufacture for the convicts. The 
prison system might also undertake the 
manufacture of some grades of shoes re- 
quired by the various State institutions, 
but the quantity should not be large 
as the equipment required to enable 
the system to make all the shoes used by 
the State institutions would be too great 
to justify its purchase, and there, would 
seem to be small prospect of success in 
having the system enter upon the manu- 
facture of these articles as a commercial 
enterprise. 

The blacksmith shor> and wagon fac- 
tory is an essential adjunct to the pris- 
on farm, instructive to the men and ca- 
pable of serving a useful purpose to the 
prison system. 

Among the classes of industries that 
might be conducted as a matter of pol- 
icy would be the manufacturing of fur- 
niture which has been carried on in dif- 
ferent ways and with varying degrees of 
success in the prison system for many 
years. A furniture factory may be made 
to save the purchase of necessary furni- 
ture for the prison system, and there 
would seem to be no valid reason why 
the convicts cannot make much of the 
furniture required by the State institu- 
tions, colleges and schools; and if it is 
desired to increase the number of men 
occupied in indoor work the manufacture 



of certain staple lines of furniture of- 
fers a reasonable assurance of provid- 
ing a profitable undertaking. 

In the factory reports submitted here- 
with the suggestions for increasing the 
output of various industries now carried 
on at Huntsville with comparatively 
small additional investments, and we 
have reason to believe from our inquiries 
that such extensions would lessen cost 
of production and increase the chances 
of profitable operation. 

In every manufacturing enterprise un- 
dertaken by the prison management a 
thorough and uniform system of account- 
ing, embracing cost of raw material, la- 
bor, supervision, general system expense, 
and overhead charges of every kind, must 
be installed and carefully maintained 
before it can be determined whether or 
not such enterprises are being operated 
at a profit. And we would further im- 
press the fact that it is only by the in- 
auguration of an intelligent business pol- 
icy, continuously and uninterruptedly 
adhered to that any manufacturing in- 
dustry can hope to sustain itself. 

The labor entering into a manufac- 
tured article is often so essential a part 
of the finished product, demanding not 
only conscientious attention to detail,, 
economy in use of materials, diligence in 
application of time, but also pride in the 
achievement of skillful handiwork, that 
we feel impelled to counsel extreme con- 
servatism in the selection of factory un- 
dertakings,^© the end that needless loss 
may be averted in this department of 
prison operation. 

Nevertheless, the employment of con- 
victs within the walls in various manu- 
facturing enterprises offering better op- 
portunities for reformation work, pro- 
viding useful technical knowledge after 
release, and assuring greater intelligence 
and skill in workmanship, suggests the 
advisability of the employment, as an' 
established policy, of as many convicts in 
industrial occupations as may be found 
practicable. 

Before engaging in enterprises of like 
character with the iron industry, foun- 
dry and machine shops, furniture manu- 
facturing, etc., certain to involve expen- 
diture of large capital, it should be re- 
membered that the State, even though it 
be in control of its convict labor, faces 
a problem entirely different from that 
confronting private capital. Such in- 
dustries as a rule are very expensive to 
install. Furthermore they are expensive 
to operate, and dependent for success 
upon whether or not the men who labor 
have been trained along the lines of work 



24 



Report and Findings of 



■assigned them. Private enterprises have 
the privilege of selecting their men from 
the industrial world, while the State must 
-employ the labor of such men as the 
■criminal courts provide, and, of neces- 
sity, without any consideration whatever 
for special fitness or adaptability, for the 
work required. No wise business pol- 
icy could favor the opening of the gates 
of a great industry requiring technical 
skill under the circumstances compelling 
the employment of such labor as may 
•drift in, without being carefully selected. 
Such policy is doomed to failure in ad- 
vance, as success would be impossible in 
competition with industries of like char- 
acter employing skilled labor. Prison- 
ers are like other men. They have to 
learn, and it is folly to expect expeit 
labor from them before serving their ap- 
prenticeships. Again, when demand for 
products of private industries is limited, 
the number of employes and cost of oper- 
ation may be reduced, while in a State 
penal system, the men must be retained 
regardless of limitations of market. The 
idea that convict labor is cheap labor 
will not stand the test of analysis, even 
under wise business direction, and the 
history of our prison system, from begin- 
ning to end, shows a lamentable disre- 
gard of business calculations and meth- 
ods, the natural sequence of which could 
only be expressed in heavy loss of public 
revenue. 

In this respect Texas is not unlike 
other States. It is true of the State, as 
of the Nation, that partisans are re- 
warded with positions of trust and re- 
sponsibility offtimes without due con- 
sideration for qualifications. It is hard- 
ly to be expected that men elected to 
responsible offices would retain in office, 
heads of departments, politically, or oth-^ 
erwise, unfriendly to them, and this ob- 
tains with equal force among appointees. 
It is a trait of human nature that should 
be guarded against and which is re- 
sponsible for the introduction of the 
doctrine of the civil service, the very 
purpose and necessity for which is to 
safeguard the State from incompetent 
service resulting from appointments made 
for reasons other than those of merit. 

In view of the fact that the State now 
owns 8,975 acres of land in Fort Bend 
county, and 15,974 acres in Brazoria 
county; that these lands are as fertile 
as may be found in Texas, and are rea- 
sonably near together; and that this sec- 
tion of the State is particularly well 
adapted to the cultivation of a variety 
of crops, the average rainfall being as 
heavy as in any part of the State, assur- 



ing a reasonable annual yield; and that 
this portion of the State is universally 
conceded as. most favorable to the best 
results in the employment of colored la- 
bor, we recommend that it be the policy 
of the prison system to work its negro 
and Mexican convicts on farms owned by 
the system, concentrating such farms to 
the extent found possible. The Wynne 
and the Goree farms near Huntsville, in 
Walker county, may be made to serve 
useful purposes as long as the headquar- 
ters of the penitentiary are maintained 
at Huntsville, as dairying, gardening and 
stock farms, materially reducing the cost 
of maintenance of the men confined with- 
in the walls. And, it may be that one 
or both of these farms can be utilized 
longer for certain classes of convicts who 
can not be employed to advantage in con- 
nection with the main department of the 
prison system. The Wynne farm is well 
equipped for the care of those convicts 
suffering from chronic and incurable ail- 
ments, the cripples and others unable to 
perform much" useful labor. 

We believe that unless the next few 
years witness a considerable increase 
in the number of colored convicts, the 
bringing into cultivation of new land at 
the Ramsey farm, the acquisition of 
lands so situated as to better concentrate 
the State's farming interests, together 
with 'general improvements in agricul- 
tural methods, the prison system might 
dispose of the Clemens farm, in pursu- 
ance of a policy of eon cent ration of man- 
agement. If it be decide J to do this, 
however, it should be held until such 
time as practically all of the lands are 
cleared and made salable at higher prices. 
Then it could be placed on the market in 
small tracts to farmers on easy terms of 
payment, realizing for the prison system 
a handsome price. 

Whether or not the suggestions of the 
committee regarding the complete sepa- 
ration of the races be approved, the com- 
mittee would suggest the advisability of 
having one camp on one of the farms con- 
veniently located to railroad facilities 
equipped to receive the negro and Mexi- 
can convicts, from which point they may 
be distributed to the different camps on 
the farms. And if the suggestions of 
the committee respecting the early con- 
centration of farm holdings be followed 
all discharges should likewise be made 
from this camp. When a man is con- 
victed who is to be employed in farm 
work he should be sent direct to this 
receiving camp for the farms of the pris- 
on system. The sums saved in unneces- 
sary transportation of convicts would 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



25 



in a very short time repay not only all 
cost of equipping the receiving bureau, 
would in the course of time materially 
aid in paying the cost of constructing a 
fireproof building at such receiving camp. 

The committee feels strongly the im- 
portance of improvements in the farm 
methods of the prison system. It appears 
that too much consideration has been 
given to the acreage to be cultivated, and 
not enough attention to the possibility of 
the increase in acreage yield. Likewise, 
the judgment displayed in the character, 
division, rotation, care and disposition 
of crops is open to criticism. A single 
illustration of this may be seen in the 
planting of Irish potatoes, a crop very 
expensive to plant, requiring consider- 
able care in cultivation, and the exercise 
of judgment in marketing. The efforts of 
the State prison system in the produc- 
tion of this crop have been de- 
cidedly unprofitable, due in part, 
apparently, to lack of proper methods of 
cultivation and judicious marketing. Un- 
der all the circumstances attending the 
cultivation and selling of prison farm 
products., the wise policy would be to 
confine the State's operations to such 
crops as are not perishable and have a 
steady demand at fairly uniform prices. 

In the penitentiary management the 
cost of supervision and fixed overhead 
expenses is a problem of the gravest con- 
cern, and enters in an important de- 
gree into every detail of the operations 
of the system. Every activity of the 
system, therefore, must institute and 
carefully maintain such economies as 
are practicable, and we are convinced 
that there are many such ways of saving 
in connection with the prison farms. 
These may be found in judicious crop ro- 
tation, provisions for the maintenance of 
soil fertility, the manufacture of farm 
products, and arrangements for working 
men under conditions favorable to a re- 
duction of expense for guard hire and 
general supervision. We recommend the 
establishment of a cotton seed mill to 
crush the seed grown on the farms, thus 
realizing the greatest value for this 
product. All of the standard varieties 
of vegetables most used for canning pur- 
poses may be grown abundantly on the 
farms and a cannery should be estab- 
lished which could easily provide for the 
requirements of the prison system, ma- 
terially reducing the expenditures for 
high priced food; and the various State 
institutions might also be supplied with 
these articles. The cost of maintaining 
the 1vork stock is now much too high, 
and this can be materiallv lowered with 



advantage to the stock by the construc- 
tion of a mixed feed plant on one of the 
farms, and the erection of silos upon all 
of them to utilize the large forage waste 
on the farms. 

While it is impracticable for the 
prison system to engage to any consider- 
able extent in the growing of live stock 
because of the acreage required, we be- 
lieve the plan now undertaken of grow- 
ing well-bred dairy cows for the use of 
the system a worthy one, and in time 
may be developed to the point of the 
maintenance of creameries upon profit- 
able conditions. 

The growing of hogs upon the farms 
should be profitable. Each camp should 
easily care for approximately one hun- 
dred hogs at a time with comparatively 
small cost. 

Cotton, sugar cane and Irish potatoes 
are the money crops now relied upon. 
The corn is ordinarily inadequate to 
meet the demands of the system for 
feeding. 

The yield of neither of the money 
crops in the recent past is sufficient to 
justify expectation Of profit from their 
cultivation, but with the employment of 
proper administrative and cultural meth- 
ods, we can see no reason why satis- 
factory conditions may not be developed 
and as good results achieved in the 
farming operations of the prison system 
as prevail in agricultural pursuits else- 
where in the South. With the ability 
to command the best talent in farm 
management and administrative meth- 
ods, the Texas prison system should not 
be long in taking the lead in the State 
in demonstrating plans for the conserva- 
tion and utilization of our agricultural 
resources and the value of intensified 
farming. 

Sugar Cane. 

The growing of sugar cane has been 
the subject of much discussion, and the 
committee made an extended inquiry 
into the subject. Our inquiries devel- 
oped the fact that comparatively little 
cane is being grown in South Texas 
now, aside from that grown on the 
prison farms. The great burden of tes- 
timony secured by the committee was 
that, while cane 'might be grown and 
other mills has been unprofitable and 
growing of cane alone and its sale to 
other mills has been unprofitble and 
must continue to be until such time as 
better cultural methods result in higher 
average yields. Likewise, the burden of 
information justified the belief that the 



26 



Report and Findings of 



State cannot hope to manufacture the 
cane into sugar at a profit, The prin- 
cipal cause for losses in cane cultivation 
is found in the lessened yields. The 
yield, for example, on the Harlem farm 
for ten years, from 1901 to 1910, shows 
the lowest average yield of any farm in 
the system, having been twelve tons per 
acre, the yield varying from 14.33 tons 
to 6.38 tons. This is only from one-half 
to one-third former average yields. 
Cane is a heavy feeder, and unless some 
plan of fertilization is used soon reduces 
the natural fertility of the strongest 
soil, resulting in unprofitable yields. 
Cane requires a great amount of moist- 
ure, and without irrigation the stubble 
will not uniformly furnish a satisfac- 
tory stand for more than two years; 
whereas, it has been the mistaken prac- 
tice to depend upon some stubble for 
three and four seasons. 

As a result of its inquiry into the 
culture of sugar cane, the committee 
recommends that the acreage of cane on 
the penitentiary farms be reduced to the 
minimum required to furnish syrup nec- 
essary for the system, and the cultiva- 
tion of the crop be placed practically on 
an experimental basis. If investigation 
proves irrigation practicable, we have 
every confidence cane may be produced 
profitably, the testimony indicating that 
irrigation will usually double and some- 
times treble the yield and mature the 
crop earlier, while not materially affect- 
ing the sugar content. Either with or 
without irrigation, we recommend the 
employment of some plan of fertiliza- 
tion every year, and the replanting of a 
crop every three years. With irriga- 
tion, commercial fertilizers are available, 
but without irrigation there is danger 
in dry seasons of injury to the crop, 
and some plan of renewing the fertility 
of the land, such as growing peas along- 
side the cane drill, must be followed. 
The entire product should be made into 
syrup. Should these experiments in cul- 
tural methods justify, the acreage could 
be increased and the cane made into 
syrup and packed into cans and other 
packages in such manner as to assure 
the highest market price for the product. 
For reasons of expediency, it may be 
found desirable to continue growing such 
acreage of cane as will meet existing 
requirements. 

The cultivation of cane and its man- 
ufacture into sugar in South Texas has 
been for a long time a recognized in- 
dustry. Sometimes profitable, but more 
often we believe unprofitable, and since 



the passage of the present penitentiary 
law and the discontinuance of the con- 
vict lease system making it difficult and 
frequently impossible to command nec- 
essary labor to gather and move a crop 
promptly, the industry has gradually 
languished, until today it is practically 
abandoned by all save the State. A 
comparatively few farmers grow a lim- 
ited acreage to make syrup. The invest- 
ment originally in 1912 of $268,500 in 
the Clemens farm sugar mill was made 
at a time when it was generally believed 
the manufacture of sugar offered the 
greatest profits of all our agricultural 
crops. In this sentiment, almost uni- 
versal at the time, may be found excuse 
for the grievous error made in the erec- 
tion of so large and costly a plant, and 
particularly so far removed from trans- 
portation facilities at the time, and in 
a place so inaccessible to any consider- 
able body of land suitable for the growth 
of sugar cane. The most experienced 
cane growers interviewed by the com- 
mittee agreed that there is not exceed- 
ing seventeen hundred acres of land on 
the Clemens State farm adapted to the 
growing of cane. Since this mill has 
been built, various sums of money have 
been spent in its repair, $72,000 having 
been expended in 1912, and, with in- 
creased equipment, the mill today repre- 
sents a cost to the State, directly and 
indirectly, of perhaps not less than a 
half million dollars. 

Incidental to the Clemens sugar mill, 
and representing an expenditure that 
would not have been made but for the 
erection of the mill, is the construction 
of seven and one-half miles of railroad 
from the sugar mill on the farm to Bra- 
zoria, and the construction of seven 
miles of railway around the farm. This 
is all standard gauge track and repre- 
sents a large and needless investment 
from which the prison system will never 
realize any material part of its cost. 

The large Clemens mill is equipped 
exclusively for the making of sugar, be- 
ing one of the largest and most mod- 
ernly equipped plants of its kind in 
Texas. As it would require additional 
investment to equip it to make syrup, 
it would probably be best to enlarge the 
capacity of the mill at Harlem, a 400- 
ton mill, equipped for making syrup, as 
also sugar, which could be utilized to 
work up the cane crop. If sale could 
be found for the mill at Clemens, we 
would recommend its disposal upon any 
terms that would return to the prison 
system a reasonable proportion of its 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



27 



cost. In our judgment, the continued 
attempt to manufacture sugar invites 
certain loss. 

Fireproof Buildings. 

A provision of the present law worthy 
of the attention of the Legislature is 
that stipulating for the erection of fire- 
proof buildings upon the farms. The 
Prison Commission, deeming the cost of 
such structures prohibitive, have erected 
wooden buildings. Our inquiry de- 
veloped the fact that no investigation 
was made by the Commission as to the 
difference in the cost of constructing 
reasonably fireproof buildings and wood- 
en buildings, nor has the committee 
itself had time to institute such in- 
quiries. We are of the opinion, however, 
that in view of the known fact that 
brick of good quality may be made from 
the soil on different State farms; that 
wood not valuable for other purposes 
might be utilized in the burning of the 
brick, and that the brick may be made 
with convict labor, the difference be- 
tween the cost of fireproof and wooden 
buildings should not be great ; and that 
if it be determined the policy of the 
State to retain these farms upon which 
to employ the labor of its convicts, the 
fireproof buildings should be constructed 
as rapidly as may be done with prison 
labor and consistent with good business 
judgment. 

Organization and Management. 

It is the judgment of the committee 
that radical changes in both the organi- 
zation and management of the prison 
system are essential to the operation of 
the system upon a basis promising finan- 
cial independence. The maintenance of 
.two prisons, at Rusk and at Huntsville, 
imposes a financial burden that has no 
possible compensating advantages, and 
compels a division of managerial duties 
militating against the efficiency of the 
system. Both institutions occupy sig- 
nally unfortunate locations for the pur- 
poses they must serve. We strongly 
recommend that the Rusk penitentiary 
be discontinued as soon as practicable, 
and that the machinery and other mov- 
able property of value be transferred to 
Huntsville. The tremendous losses sus- 
tained in operating the Rusk peniten- 
tiary during all the years since its estab- 
lishment, furnishes unassailable justifi- 
cation for this recommendation. It may 
be the Rusk prison building will prove 
available for some of the institutions of 
the State, but the condition of the 
builf ings since the losses last sustained 



by fire within the walls, render the 
property of comparatively small value. 
If the buildings can be found service- 
able to a degree that would recommend 
their adaptation to other uses, the lands 
held in that vicinity might be found 
serviceable, otherwise they should be dis- 
posed of. 

Changes in Locations. 

We recommend that the Prison Com- 
mission be authorized and directed to 
select, with the approval of the Gov- 
ernor, a new location as central as may 
be found practicable for the headquar- 
ters of the penitentiary system, and to 
acquire in one body or near together 
such amount of land as may be deemed 
requisite to provide farm land for the 
white convicts not employed in manu- 
facturing enterprises, or until such time 
as it may be found advantageous to 
work them in the walls. Convict labor 
should be utilized as far as practicable 
in constructing headquarters buildings at' 
the new location in such way and to 
such extent as will make possible the 
removal of penitentiary headquarters 
from Huntsville to such new location not 
later than January 1, 1920. The deter- 
mining reasons for the recommendation 
of a more central location for the head- 
quarters elsewhere than at Huntsville, 
and farther north than the vicinity of 
the penitentiary farms are: (1) 'The 
demand for the complete separation of 
the white convicts from the negroes; 
(2) the desirability of a central loca- 
tion, together with greater accessibility 
to transportation facilities, and (3) the 
widespread belief that such location will 
be more healthful for white convicts, the 
greater proportion of whom come from 
counties considerably north of the prison 
farms; and which feeling shared by the 
convicts, it is feared, may affect their 
usefulness to the prison system. Should 
the recommendation that all young men 
under twenty-one years be sent to a re- 
formatory be approved, we would sug- 
gest the advisability of closing the 
Gatesville Reformatory and placing all 
the youths at Rusk, and employing them 
upon the farm and at such other work 
as may be found practicable until such 
time as the penitentiary headquarters 
shall have been moved from Huntsville, 
when they can be transferred to Hunts- 
ville as being much better equipped for 
a permanent reformatory and manual 
and industrial training school. 

Changes in Law. 

The conduct of the prison system upon 
the humanitarian lines embodied in the 



28 



Report and Findings of 



present law is approved by the senti- 
ment of the people, and there should be 
no action taken which would affect the 
standard therein established. From a 
careful study of the operation of the 
law, however, the committee is convinced 
that a number of changes must be made 
before the results expected from its pro- 
visions when enacted, may be realized, 
and before the system can be adminis- 
tered with the greatest advantage to 
the convicts and with credit to Texas. 

We recommend that the Prison Com- 
missioners be appointed by the Governor 
under the provisions of the law authoriz- 
ing terms of service for six years, the 
term of one Commissioner to expire 
every two years. The salaries and du- 
ties of said Commissioners to be fixed by 
the Legislature, and they required to 
give their time to the service of the sys- 
tem. Careful study of the operation of 
the present law providing for a Board 
of Pardon Advisers leads us to the con- 
clusions that this law should be revised 
and the duties now discharged by the 
Pardon Board should be performed by 
the Prison Commission. 

We recommend that there be created 
the position of general manager of the 
prison system, such official to be ap- 
pointed by the Prison Commission, with 
the approval of the Governor ; and to 
receive such salary as the Legislature 
may determine, said . salary to be not 
less than $5000 a year. The general 
manager should be vested Avith the exe- 
cution of the policies outlined by the 
Commission, conduct general business 
transactions, and have the execution of 
the rules governing the control of con- 
victs. The present division of duties 
among the Commissioners stipulated by 
the law has unquestionably been pro- 
ductive of confusion and expensive delay 
in the administration of the affairs of 
the system, and a hindrance rather than 
an aid to efficiency of management, and 
should be eliminated. 

The committee is convinced that the 
only method to be pursued in the finan- 
cial operations of the prison system, is 
to be found upon the. same basis as 
those of other departments of the State 
government. The State should appro- 
priate annually a sum approximating 
that required for the maintenance of 
the system. All expenditures should be 
paid by the State Treasurer not of the 
penitentiary appropriation on warrant, 
drawn by the Comptroller, accompanied 
by vouchers bearing the approval of the 
auditor of the Prison Commission. All 
revenues derived from the operations of 
the prison system should be covered into 
the State Treasurv. The State Treas- 



urer should maintain a separate account 
showing penitentiary expenditures and 
receipts in order that information con- 
cerning the cost of maintaining the in- 
stitution may be available at all times. 
It seems to us that any other method 
must present serious interference with 
the wise humanitarian intent of the peo- 
ple as expressed in the statutes, and 
also subject the prison management to 
the frequent expedient of seeking finan- 
cial aid and credit for necessary equip- 
ment and supplies for operating and 
maintenance expenses under conditions 
calculated to increase the cost to the 
State, according to estimates furnished 
the committee by those best qualified to 
know, this being anywhere from 5 to 15 
per cent. 

Accounting Department. 

Since the first audit of the accounts 
of the prison system in 1909, consider- 
able improvement has been made in the 
accounting department of the prison 
system, but there are many changes and 
improvements that must still be effected 
before the accounting system will re- 
spond to the magnitude and variety of 
detail involved in the conduct of peni- 
tentiary affairs. The Prison Commis- 
sion should employ an expert accountant 
for the specific purpose of reorganizing 
the accounting methods of the system in 
their entirety, and inaugurate a system 
adapted to meet the requirements of de- 
tail involved in the operations of the 
penitentiary. 

It is our judgment that the auditor 
of the prison system should draw and 
sign voucher checks for expenditures, 
forwarding such vouchers to the State 
Comptroller, who should countersign 
them and forward to the State Treas- 
urer; the Treasurer should enter the 
voucher number and amount, pay and 
stamp, and return the original voucher 
to the Comptroller, who should retain 
all vouchers on file in his office. By 
this means unnecessary expense might 
be obviated in the Comptroller's office. 

The prison system needs a more equi- 
table division of the general expenses of 
the system. The expenditures should be 
carefully classified to indicate those in- 
curred for maintenance, operation, and 
general system and overhead expenses. 
A thorough system of accounting should 
then be installed, by which the per cap- 
ita of expense for each of these divi- 
sions may be properly ascertained and 
j charged against the several activities of 
| the system. 

We believe a competent citizen book- 
j keeper should be employed on each farm, 
I but convicts can and should be i tilized 
1 in minor clerical positions. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



29 



Method of Making Purchases. 

Much has been said respecting the 
probable advantages to result from pur- 
chases for the prison system being made 
by the State Purchasing Agent. The 
committee made some inquiries on the 
subject, both at Huntsville and Austin, 
and while convinced that some articles 
may be bought to distinct advantage by 
the State Purchasing Agent, the extent 
of our inquiries would not justify the 
conclusion that all purchases for the 
prison system should be so made. There 
can be no questioning the fact that 
staple articles bought in large quanti- 
ties result in securing closer prices, and 
we would recommend that the services 
of the State Purchasing Agent be em- 
ployed wherever investigation and expe- 
rience show it advisable. 

In this connection we would urge 
upon the officials of the State consider- 
ation of the possibilities in increased 
efficiency of business management and 
economy of administration by bringing 
the various departments of the State gov- 
ernment into closer business relationship. 

Punishment. 

Great stress was laid upon the method 
of punishment by almost all of those in- 
terviewed by the committee. Many of 
the most experienced managers * and 
guards expressed the belief that the rec- 
ord will show more mutinous conduct 
ha? resulted, more disobedience has been 
manifested, and more punishments have 
been necessary as a result of the popular 
agitation of the question, which finally 
resulted in the complete suspension of 
the use of the strap, than were required 
when the rules of the Commission per- 
mitted its use. It seems undeniable that 
although other methods of punishment 
used may be more severe, the convicts, 
both white and black, fear the strap 
more than any other form of correction 
ever employed in the prison system. And 
should the committee follow* the over- 
whelming weight of testimony of citi- 
zens as well as employes adduced at its 
hearings, it would unqualifiedly recom- 
ment that the order to suspend the use 
of the -trap be revoked. From the time 
the law became effective on January 20, 
1911, to the date on which the Commis- 
sion formally suspended the use of the 
-tap March 25. 1912, fifteen months, 
there were 288 whippings. In 1912 there 
were 1.476 punishments by placing in the 
dark cell, and 473 punishments by the 
chains. And from April 1 to December 
31. 1912. there were thirteen mutinous 



demonstrations in which a total of 2S3 
men participated. 

In this connection it may be of inter- 
est to state the records disclose that in 

1909 there were 751 punishments by the 
strap and 68 placed in the dark cell. In 

1910 there were 1,045 punishments by 
strap and 47 by the dark cell, while four 
mutinies occurred involving 78 men. In 
1911, while the strap was used spar- 
ingly, as above indicated, the dark cell 
was resorted to. 1,079 times, and the 
chains, a substitute punishment for the 
strap, was employed 99 times. Five mu- 
tinies occurred that year, participated 
in by 176 men. These records would in- 
dicate that for some reason 1912 was 
productive of an unusual display of mu- 
tinous conduct as also of ordinary in- 
fractions of prison rules. 

While the committee believes that un- 
der the restrictions imposed by the law. 
the use of the strap is really less cruel 
than solitary confinement in the dark 
cell, lese degrading than the chains used 
as a mode of punishment since the sus- 
pension of the strap, and that the sub- 
ject has received more partisan atten- 
tion from the public than the carefully 
limited power to use the strap only upon 
third class men warranted, we recognize 
quite fully that the sentiment of the 
public demands the abolition of whipping 
in the penitentiary: and that to insist 
upon a retention of the strap in the face 
of such antagonistic public sentiment- 
would merely mean to invite demoraliza- 
tion among the convicts. Discipline 
among the men must be maintained, and 
the prison authorities are confronted 
with the imperative necessity of deter- 
mining the methods to be employed in 
controlling them. Perfect control and 
obedience to prison rules is as essential 
to the welfare and possible reformation 
of the men as it is to the interests of 
the State in minimizing the expense for 
their care. More or less unruliness must 
be expected and provided against, and 
such system of punishment should be es- 
tablished as will visit just and equal 
correction according to the degree of the 
offense against prison regulations. 

The committee is firm in the belief 
that the hope of reward exerts a better 
disciplinary influence than the fear of 
punishment; that equality in the impo- 
tion of sentence, uniformly fair treat- 
ment in the matter of credits on terms 
of service^ together with humane treat- 
ment, will secure the best results in the 
course of time. "We would provide lib- 
eral credits on time of sentence for good 
conduct, and heavily penalize vicious con- 



30 



Report and Findings of 



duel. We would establish the policy of 
granting pardons upon the merit basis. 
Once you give the convict body to know 
the State punishes every man with equal 
justice; that the man without influences, 
friends or money can secure a pardon as 
quickly as the man of political influence 
and personal means of wealthy friends, 
and you will have introduced into the 
system one of the strongest possible 
forces leading to discipline, and a spirit 
of co-operation with the prison manage- 
ment. 

It is our opinion that when the Penal 
Laws of Texas shall have been revised 
and provisions embodied therein recog- 
nizing and making effective the intent 
and spirit responsible for the passage of 
measures of the character oi iudetei inm- 
ate sentences, such laws, when in full 
operation and well understood by liie con- 
victs,, will exert a strong disciplinary in- 
fluence. 

Grading I onvicts. 

Progress has been made by the Com- 
mission in the effort to classify the con- 
victs with regard to the provisions of 
the law on the subject; but it seems 
that the difficulties of this feature of 
prison management have been so great 
as to prevent the degree of advancement 
along these lines which would M>.rve to 
indicate the results to be achieved by a 
carefully devised system of classing and 
grading the inmates of the penitentiary. 
The chief defect in the efforts thus far 
made to enforce rules of classification 
lies in the absence of equitable increase 
and decrease in the privileges accorded to 
convicts in recognition of good conduct, 
or as ^ rebuke for disobedience. The 
method of handling third-class men is 
also such as to affect, to a material ex- 
tent, the discipline among the convicts, 
and to exert a direct adverse influence 
upon the spirit of the entire convict 
body. We would suggest that no fea- 
ture of prison management is more de- 
serving of careful investigation than the 
classification of the convicts, nor in any 
line of endeavor in convict control ca- 
pable of producing more beneficial re- 
sults in prison discipline. Each convict, 
when received, should be accompanied by 
a. statement from the trial court dis- 
closing all known facts concerning his 
criminal record, as also his general rep- 
utation. He should then be placed in 
Class No. 2 and advised that his previ- 
ous record has been set aside and that 
he enters the prison on equal terms with 
every other man and will have an equal 
opportunity to establish and maintain a 



clear record during the period of his 
sentence. We are led to believe that 
many men with reasonable encourage- 
ment to feel that their previous record 
will not affect their treatment or their 
classification, or advancement in the 
walls, will respond to such expression of 
confidence, and advance rather than fall. 
The rules providing for the placing of 
men in the third class should be drawn 
with care to meet the various frailties 
of human nature, and a just apprecia- 
tion of the conditions surrounding prison 
service. We believe it often occurs that 
a man is degraded to the third class 
when better results might be achieved 
by giving him further opportunity to 
conduct himself properly; also that men 
whose conduct justifies placing them in 
the third class are sometimes held in 
that class too long, becoming embittered, 
and the corrective influence intended re- 
sults unfavorably to the men and to 
general discipline. Under no circum- 
stances, in our judgment should those 
in stripes be worked in connection with 
men of other classes. The association 
hardens and embitters the third-class 
men, while exciting undue sympathy 
among the men in other classes with 
whom they are brought in contact. 

All third-class men should be segre- 
gated; and when their conduct is such 
that they may be justly classed as in- 
corrigible they should be held within the 
walls where they may be isolated when 
deemed best, and where greater efforts 
at improvement in their conduct may 
be undertaken. 

When men are entitled to enter the 
first class they should be accorded such 
reasonable additional privileges as will 
establish in the minds of the convicts a 
distinct inducement for endeavoring to 
secure promotion to this class; and when 
degraded to the third class there should 
be an equitable decrease in the privi- 
leges accorded. 

Numerous suggestions have been ad- 
vanced respecting plans for rewarding 
the well behaved convicts who display an 
honest desire to co-operate with the au- 
thorities in the work of the prison sys- 
tem. The committee is reluctant to in- 
dulge in theories or to suggest experi- 
ments; but, after considerable thought, 
is constrained to believe it practicable 
to advance along experimental lines in 
providing a higher degree of reward for 
good conduct under prison regulations, 
to the extent of setting aside one camp 
on one of the farms to be known as 
Honor Camp ; the Commission to pro- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



31 



mote a number of men from each farm 
to this camp, which should be conducted 
under the direction of a competent farm 
manager, and without guards. The com- 
mittee entertains no illusions and does 
not doubt that many of those trusted in 
the manner suggested would prove recre- 
ant or. weak; nevertheless, if care is ex- 
ercised in selecting the men the plan 
should prove a success. A similar pol- 
icy with reference to men employed in 
other occupations should be readily ad- 
vised. 

Health. 

Representations have been made that 
the men received, in the penitentiary in 
recent years, are not the equals physical- 
ly, of the convict body of ten or more 
years ago, suggested- to the committee 
special inquiry upon this feature of the 
prison problem as exerting a possible 
influence on the value of convict labor 
in the work of the system. Our inquir- 
ies lead us to believe" that it is true the 
penitentiary is receiving a larger num- 
ber of comparative youths incapable in 
many instances, of as much labor as the 
more seasoned men of previous years: 
that a great many of these men come 
from the cities and seem to be unac- 
quainted with any form of useful labor; 
and are largely from the ranks of those 
accustomed to excesses of every char- 
acter, bringing with them diseases of 
various kinds. The comparatively few 
deaths in the penitentiary under these 
conditions is gratifying, and evidence 
improvement in sanitary provisions 
maintained by the Commission. The 
deaths for the year 1912 were fifty-four. 
It is the judgment of the committee, 
from the best information available, that 
the treatment of the convicts is more 
liberal in privileges and more lenient in 
requirements than ever before, and that 
the inmates of the penitentiary and those 
on the farms are better fed and clothed 
than at any time in the past. The 
method employed in preparing food on 
the farms is so liberal as to be really 
wasteful, and a reasonable degree of 
economy in this detail would save the 
prison 'system considerable expense, with- 
out in the least effecting proper care of 
the men. 

Guards. 

The guard service is an exceedingly 
perplexing problem. At the present time 
there are 310 guards in the service, 
which is an average of one guard to 
each sixteen convicts, in the two peni- 
tentiaries, and one to each thirteen con- 
victs employed on the farm. This repre- 



sents a considerable item in the overhead 
or operating expense of the system, and 
calls for serious and persistent effort to 
establish better service. In all the years 
of the operation of the system reviewed 
by the committee, there seems to have 
been no appreciable improvement in the 
efficiency of the guard force for the work 
required of them, though there has been 
an improvement in the moral standards 
of the men. The great need is for the 
inauguration oji some plan by which the 
prison system can build up a guard serv- 
ice composed of men possessing tact in 
the management of convicts, knowledge 
of the farm work under their direction, 
and earnestly committed to the duty of 
accomplishing the best results, both for 
the prison system and the men in their 
charge. Such a plan would materially 
reduce the number of guards necessary, 
establish working relations between 
guards and men; and though it might 
not to any material extent reduce the 
cost of the guard service as a whole, 
would produce far greater results in 
more profitable work, better discipline, 
and greater advancement toward refor- 
mation among the convicts. The com- 
mittee is disposed to urge a plan recog- 
nizing merit service rules, the guard be- 
ginning at a minimum salary, and leav- 
ing it to the discretion of the Commis- 
sion to advance the compensation in ac- 
cordance with a system of regulations 
governing the service, intended to demon- 
strate the value of the guard to the 
work of the prison system and his adapt- 
ability to the special character of serv- 
ice required. It is an unfortunate fact 
that the present method of handling the 
guard service fails either to attract men 
of the most desirable character, or to 
retain them in the event it is fortunate 
enough to secufe such. Improvement in 
this detail of prison management is one 
of the essentials to the establishment 
of that standard of discipline necessary 
to a business-like administration of 
prison affairs. 

Working Hours. 

The provisions of the law for working 
convicts ten hours a day, including the 
time consumed in going to and coming 
from place of work, was considered rea- 
sonable and just to both the State and to 
the convicts when the law was enacted. 
The evident intent was to permit the 
State to secure approximately ten hours 
cf labor a day from its convict* : owing 
to the arbitrary terms of the law. how- 
ever, no discretion is accorded the Prison 
Commission, and the result is that with 



32 



Report and Findings of 



the short days of the winter season the 
average day's labor performed is far be- 
low that intended by the law, less than 
is performed by free labor, and is prac- 
tically unresponsive to the requirements 
of farm work. It has been urged upon 
the consideration of the committee by- 
farmers of prominence and of long and 
successful experience in handling labor, 
that the greater part of the unprofitable- 
ness of farming operations of the prison 
system during the past • two years is 
chargeable to the inability of the State 
to secure a fair day's work from its men, 
thus requiring a larger number of men 
on each farm than formerly for the same 
acreage, or the same amount of farm 
duties, increasing very greatly the cost 
of practically every detail of prison sys- 
tem work. 

The committee is convinced of the 
necessity, as also the justness, of such 
revision of the law as will make our 
convict labor responsive to the demands 
imposed by the proper conduct of the 
various activities in which the State may 
find it best to engage, and would recom- 
mend that the Prison Commission have 
authority to adopt a scale of hours vary- 
ing with the seasons, and the necessity 
for longer hours of work, in order to 
meet the emergencies of crop cultiva- 
tion, keeping an accurate record of the 
time worked by the convicts, and secur- 
ing from each convict an average of ten 
hours of labor a day throughout the 
year. If the record of any convict shows 
that he has worked more than an aver- 
age of ten hours a day. he should be 
allowed the usual credit for overtime. 

In the urgent crop growing months 
free labor is often worked twelve hours 
for short periods and it is not unreason- 
able that the State convicts should re- 
spond to the necessities of the prison 
work. 

Per Diem. 

The provisions of the law authorizing 
the payment to convicts of ten cents 
a day. it was thought, would exercise a 
good disciplinary effect upon the con- 
victs. The terms of the law are that 
•'every prisoner who shall become en- 
titled to a diminution of his term of 
sentence by good conduct shall receive 
compensation from the earnings of the 
State prison to the amount of ten cents 
a day for the time said prisoner is con- 
fined in prison." This phraseology in- 
dicated an intent to limit the extension 
of the per diem payment ; but in practice 
the payment has been extended to all of 
those pntitled to diminution of sentence 



and those really not so entitled. Thus, 
instead of having a salutary effect, the 
plan may exert a tendency to create dis- 
sention, the good men being made to 
feel their efforts at useful service are 
no more appreciated than the indolence, 
carelessness and rebelliousness of some 
of their fellow convicts. It is a question 
whether or not this per diem payment 
ever results in any substantial benefit 
to at least three-fourths of the prison 
inmates. After mature consideration of 
the question, the committee recommends 
that the paying of ten cents a day or 
any cash per diem, be discontinued. The 
one thing men prize more highly than 
any other is liberty. Therefore, in lieu 
of the payment of the cash per diem, we 
suggest the law be amended to permit 
the convicts to receive a credit of ten 
cents a day for good conduct, each dol- 
lar of such credit to secure for him a 
diminution of his term of sentence for 
a period of one day, such credit to be in 
addition to the credits now provided by 
law. Each infraction of the rule should 
be penalized by taking away credit on 
the term of sentence, as may be deemed 
equitable. 

Tt seems that under the method pur- 
sued in the release of convicts engaged 
on the different farms at the expiration 
of their term of service, minor pecula- 
tions have occurred under the provision 
of the law authorizing the released men 
to demand a ticket to any part of the 
State he may desire. We would recom- 
mend that the law be changed to pro- 
vide that a man may receive a ticket to 
the place from which he was convicted, 
or to the nearest railway point thereto, 
or to a point equally distant from the 
penitentiary. 

Conclusion. 

The prison system is a great business 
institution; as also the greatest and 
most difficult of moral training schools; 
and it must have the service of men 
capable of grasping and measuring up to 
the duties imposed, by the gravity of the 
problems involved, freed from the fear of 
partisan influences, and independent of 
public agitation. Satisfactory results, 
financial or moral, may not be achieved 
without the services of men of capacity 
and special aptitude for the work, and 
the services of such men are not to be 
measured by the ordinary standards of 
compensation for public service. 

The prison system must have adequate- 
ly equipped headquarters, with provi- 
sions for occupation and calculated to 
be of future usefulness to the convicts, 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



33 



and. therefore, protective of the well- 
being of society: and sufficient lands on 
which to employ those to whom it would 
be impracticable to teach an occupa- 
tion. It is the imperative duty of the 
State to provide necessary funds with 
which to achieve these purposes. 

The laws must be revised until the 
convict is brought to know that the 
State dispenses justice with an even 
^ hand, and extends mercy without dis- 
crimination. The great majority of con- 
victs soon return to society, and it is 
quite as important to deal justly with 
them as convicts as it is to maintain 
uniformity in the laws governing our 
free citizenship. Through such a policy 
are we most likely to appeal to and 
enlist the sincere co-operation of the 
convict necessary alike to the financial 
advantage of the system and to the moral 
reformation of the man. 

The prison system has suffered long 
and greatly from the demoralizing power 
of political interference, and neither the 
financial independence of the system, nor 
substantial advancement in the moral 
reformation of the convicts, may be ex- 
pected until the business considerations 
in the management of the affairs of the 
system supersede political influence, and 
merit supplants favoritism. 

Respectfully submitted, 

MAYES. Chairman. 
WILLACY. 
WARREN, 
On the part of the Senate. 
HUMPHREY^, 
DIFFIE, 
TILLOTSOX, 
On the part of the House. 
MINORITY REPORT. 
Hon. 0. B. Colquitt, Governor, 

Austin, Texas. 

Sir: The majority report covers so 
much ground and represents so much 
earnest labor of the committee that I 
signed same, but with the understand- 
ing that I be allowed to submit a minor- 
ity report covering certain matters either 
omitted, or, in my judgment, not dis- 
cussed in sufficient detail. . I dissent 
from many of the majority conclusions. 

The causes leading to the investiga- 
tion and appointment of the committee 
and their method of investigation have 
been recited. 

So far as the record discloses, there 
has been no dishonesty practiced in the 
creation of the deficit There has been 
serious mismanagement and the system 
reeks with inefficient service, but there is 
no evidence of moral delinquency upon 



the part of those charged with the con- 
trol of prison affairs. 

The financial troubles of the svstem 
date from January 20, 1911, when the 
new law became effective and the pres- 
ent Commission assumed control. It 
follows that the deficit is traceable to 
the new law or the Prison Commission. 

The record shows conclusively that thrj 
fires and the freezes of which we have 
heard so much played but a very small 
part in formation of the deficit, and 
that the money shortage is not caused 
either by abolishment of the lease sys- 
tem or by the expenditures for perma- 
nent improvements, except in very small 
part. 

As stated elsewhere, the committee did 
not direct an audit of the prison books. 
Four audits were placed at their dis- 
posal, statements of which are set out in 
majority report. 

The first of these audits, made by the 
Corporation Audit Co., of Dallas, Texas, 
for a period of nine years time from 
August 31, 1900, to August 31, 1909, 
shows a net profit for the svstem during 
that time of $563,500.40, this not includ- 
ing enhancement in value of property. 
Of the other three audits the first was 
presented by Mr. F. J. Huey, certified 
public accountant, of Houston, Texas, 
and shows conditions as of date. Janu- 
ary 20. 1911. The statement of assets 
and liabilities shows that, at that time, 
the system had assets valued at $4,019,- 
167.21. as against which the total in- 
debtedness was only $147,158.55. this lat- 
ter including $100^000.00 railroad bonds. 

On June 27, 1913, the Prison Commis- 
sion furnished the committee a state- 
ment which shows the current indebted- 
ness to have grown to the enormous sum 
of $1,786,270.32. As against this are 
shown current assets aggregating $332,- 
000.00, $55,000.00 of which is an in- 
crease in the worthless State railroad 
account, and more than $118,000.00 is 
classed as doubtful; in other words, 
worthless. Meantime the Thirty-second 
Legislature appropriated $310,000.00 and 
donated that sum to keep the system 
going; the Thirty- third Legislature this 
year donated $550,000.00 to keep the 
system going, of which on June 27, 1913, 
there remained unexpended onlv $206,- 
888.81. Thus upward of $650,000'.00 have 
been expended out of the general reve- 
nue, in addition to prison receipts. The 
debts are as above indicated. The prop- 
erty account shows an increase to De- 
cember 31, 1912, of $441,151.17, and in 



34 



Keport and Findings of 



my humble judgment, the facts do not 
warrant such figures. 

Thirty months have elapsed since the 
new law became effective and the pres- 
ent Commissioners were sworn in. A 
careful analysis of the figures will show 
that during the thirty months there is a 
total loss, in round figures, of $2,400,- 
000.00. in addition to all ordinary prison 
receipts from sales of crops, etc. The 
average number of prisoners cared for 
during that time is less than 4,000. 
Thus, it has cost the tax payers of the 
State $20.00 per month per man to keep 
up the penitentiary system for thirty 
months under the new law and the pres- 
ent management. Now, bearing m mind 
that on January 20, 1911, the Commis- 
sion took charge of an institution which 
had rapidly made money, which had in 
charge 4.000 able-bodied convicts and 
four million dollars' worth of revenue- 
bearing property, the mind is staggered 
to contemplate this enormous deficit. 
The finding of the cause for this deficit 
and suggesting means whereby it may 
be wiped out and recurrence prevented 
was the task entrusted to the committee. 

Why Have a Penitentiary? 

To the reflective and patriotic mind 
engaged in a study of this enormous 
and complicated problem must come the 
question, "Why have a penitentiary?" 
and "Why punish men for crime?" 

Libraries have been written and will 
be written in answer to these questions, 
and discussing the right of organized 
society thus to protect itself, but we will 
be content with the arbitrary answer of 
our criminal law that the object of 
punishment is, (1) to suppress crime, 
and (2) to reform the offender. (P. C, 
Art. 2.) 

The right of the organized many to 
deprive the individual of his liberty for 
crime must be assumed. Upon it hinge 
all the government and all the law. But 
nowhere can justification be found for 
any law or custom that has not for its 
end either the prevention of crime ]>r 
the reformation of the criminal. The 
thought of vengeance can have no right- 
ful place in the law of a Christian na- 
tion. Vengeance is not man's to give 
nor man's to take. It belongs to a 
higher power. Not always swift, but 
always sure and always complete it is 
executed and delivered under the man- 
date of a supreme court indeed, a tri- 
bunal where technicalities do not count, 
where criminal lawyers do not practice 
and where mistakes are never made. 

Then, the thought of vengeance re- 



moved and the right to punish con- 
ceded, all righteous law must bend its 
whole purpose to the accomplishment of 
the two things named, and that system 
will be most nearly perfect which pre- 
vents most crime and reforms most 
offenders. No system has ever been de- 
vised, nor can be devised which will 
result in the absolute prevention of 
crime, nor has any system been devised, 
or can be devised, which will reform 
every criminal, and any statement as to 
the amount of crime prevented of the 
percentage of criminals reformed by crim- 
inal law must be purely speculative. 
Yet human intelligence teaches, and 
human experience demonstrates, that 
the only safety for organized society 
in its rights of person and of property 
lies in its ability to punish criminals. 

Further, all experience teaches that 
certainty of moderate punishment both 
as a deferent of potential criminals and 
as a first step in reformation of con- 
victed offenders is more effective than 
harsh, severe penalties without certainty 
of infliction. The criminal mind dreads 
less the thought of a harsh penalty 
which is easily evaded than a moderate 
penalty which is certain to be inflicted. 
From this thought may be gleaned a 
comfort to those who believe that pre- 
vention of crime lies in the enforcement 
of the law ; and it is in the policy of our 
Court of Criminal Appeals that appealed 
cases shall not be reversed for purely 
technical reasons. The more rigid en- 
forcement of this policy recently has re- 
sulted in an increase of about 500 in 
our prison population. At least, since 
JaiAiary 1, 1912, the number of pris- 
oners has increased about 500, and no 
other explanation seems more satisfac- 
tory when the increased percentage of 
affirmances is contemplated and the cor- 
responding reduction in the number of 
reversals. Whether the ultimate result 
of this policy will be for good or for 
evil can only be surmised. If it shall 
result in prevention of murders, or rapes, 
or burglaries, or other crimes, then shall 
wisdom be justified of her children, but 
if it shall result only in an increase in 
the number of criminal convictions, then 
our recognized legal theories are wrong 
and we had best abolish all criminal law. 
In this connection it may be noted that 
certain changes in the criminal law were 
made in 1897, and by the date the 
changes became effective, in 1898, the 
number of prisoners began to reduce from 
4,530, which was the highest figure ever 
reached. On April 1, 1913. the num- 
ber was 4.048. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



35 



However, the policy of the law or the 
courts is only collateral or incident to 
the main question with which we are 
concerned, namely, how to find the cause 
for the deficit, and make the peniten- 
tiaries self-sustaining? and can affect it 
only insofar as a reduction or increase 
in the number of convicts is involved, 
leaving personal and property rights 
amply protected. And in that connec- 
tion, reference may be had for a mo- 
ment to the cause, or causes, which most 
contribute to an increase in the peni- 
tentiary population; for it necessarily is 
true that under present conditions or 
any normal conditions, the lower the 
number of convicts, the higher the bur- 
den to be carried by the people. What 
those causes may be in other lands, or 
at other times, we cannot say. We can 
only testify as to Texas, in this day and 
generation. Hereditary predispositions 
and sociological influences are for the 
scientist, the penologist and the statisti- 
cian. We have had no time to compile 
pedigrees nor measure general averages, 
but based upon the tables contained in 
the official reports of the system, com- 
bined with the statements of persons who 
have associated with convicts for years, 
and conversations with hundreds of con- 
victs themselves, we must conclude that 
the three principal and underlying 
causes contributing most to the popula- 
tion in the penitentiary system in Texas 
are idleness, ignorance and intoxicating 
liquor. Every scrutiny of the official 
records will sustain this position to the 
last analysis. It is a truth that will 
"bide the wreck of time, and stand 'mid 
the crash of falling worlds." There's 
many a road that follows to the peni- 
tentiary, but the trail of idleness is the 
principal thoroughfare, — and it always 
leads through a saloon, never a school 
house. From all over the State the 
army of the illiterate and idle flock to 
the penitentiary, and every liquor joint 
is a recruiting station. More than 60 
per cent, of the prisoners are entered as 
having no trade, calling or profession; 
50 per cent are illiterate; 40 per cent. 
have some of the rudiments of an edu- 
cation; 10 per cent, have good educa- 
tion; 50 per cent, are intemperate, and 
that means to drink excessively. To 
make a convict then, try the following: 
That the ordinary child; raise him in 
idleness and untaught and he is almost 
ready. Give him liquor and the thing 
is done. Idleness, ignorance and alco- 
hol are the three chief causes, «,nd of 
these alcohol is the principal one within 
itself, and a necessary assistant to each 



of the others. It is most dangerous, be- 
cause it breeds both the others; with its 
banishment the deadly influence of both 
the others would greatly weaken. That 
it is the principal contributing factor to 
the penitentiary's population is proven 
and established by all the records, but 
the one supremely convincing bit of 
testimony is that in those counties where 
the traffic in liquors is forbidden, the 
number of convicts is reduced to a mini- 
mum, and in those counties where the 
traffic is permitted, the number is in- 
creased to a maximum. This statement 
is sustained in every point by the official 
figures in every report that has been 
made of the system. If, here and there, 
can be found a seeming exception, deeper 
investigation will show it to be one of 
the exceptions which prove the rule. The 
latest report furnished to us covering 
this subject was dated January 1, 1912. 
Comparisons may sometimes be invidious, 
but they are likewise sometimes instruc- 
tive. This report shows, for instance 
that Harris county, with a population of 
115,693 has 280 prisoners, and Harris 
county permits the traffic, while 76 
northwest Texas counties, all but two of 
which forbid the traffic and where the 
population numbers 521,760 have ony a 
total of 202 prisoners. It is useless to 
try to. explain that any other cause than 
the liquor traffic is responsible. They 
are all the same kind of people, all 
Texans. The difference in the density of 
population will not account for the dif- 
ference in the number of prisoners, be- 
cause the cities are policed and the rural 
communities are not. One of the 76 
counties which permits the traffic has 
27 prisoners, though it is much smaller 
in population than many of the others, 
and no other of the* 76 has more than 
13 prisoners. These comparisons can 
be indefinitely continued with the same 
results. Carefully calculating all the 
figures and considering all the facts, it 
s,eems safe to say that the suppression 
of the liquor traffic all over the State 
would reduce the number of convicts 
from about 4,000 to less than 1,500. 
Probably a compulsory school attend- 
ance law would be beneficial in some 
localities, but no statistics are available 
to prove the suggestion. It appears from 
the records in the Comptroller's office 
that the total amount received annually 
from the sale of liquor licenses by the 
State does not exceed $1,000,000.00, 
which is emphatically a mere trifle as 
compared with the expense resulting 
from the sale of the licenses. Inasmuch 
as liquor is a merchandise, the sale of 



36 



Report and Findings of 



which can be controlled by law, and the 
other twain of this unholy trio are in 
some measure dependent upon it, the 
problem of dealing with them would 
appear to be largely a question of the 
vigilance and intelligence of our people. 

Certainly, the most effective way to 
deal with the penitentiary question is 
by removing as many of the underlying 
causes for its existence as can be 
reached. And the maintenance of the 
prisoner after conviction is only a part 
of the expense of maintaining a system 
of criminal law. The machinery of the 
courts must be kept going. Officers' sal- 
aries must be paid, and witness fees; 
court houses erected and libraries gath- 
ered, and many men employed in its exe- 
cution who are needed by the commun- 
ity for other work. Uproot the underly- 
ing causes, and you reduce the convict 
expense as well as the court expense. 

And if the money expense were all. 
less might be said, but the greatest price 
cannot be paid in dollars and cents; it 
is collected in human blood, in tears of 
women, in groans of men, and in the 
cries of naked, hungry children. Every 
convict uniform symbolizes a broken 
heart, a desolated home. Nothing can 
it signify of good, — nothing save in hope 
of preventing other crimes and making 
the wearer a better man. Why have a 
penitentiary, and why punish men for 
crime? But the financial question re- 
curs. 

Texas Prison Policy. 

The general prison policy of this State 
naturally divides itself into three 
periods : ( 1 ) the past policy under the 
old law; (2) the present policy under 
the new law; and, as it is evident, the 
present policy must be changed or the 
State bankrupted, (3) the future policy. 

Past and present policies are suffi- 
ciently discussed elsewhere, no proposed 
future policy, I assume, will be tolerated 
which contemplates any abandonment of 
the humane treatment of prisoners un- 
der the new law, and only such changes 
are to be considered as may promote the 
financial efficiency of the law and yet 
leave the prisoners well cared for. 

Despite the uncertain methods of ac- 
count keeping used in the system, it is 
plain that the only reliable source of 
profit is the farm owned and operated 
by the State. Enough expensive experi- 
ments have been indulged. The system 
should, for a time at least, follow such 
work as is known to. be profitable. 

The iron industry has always been a 
loser; the State railroad has cost prac- 



tically a million; the manufacturing en- 
terprises have netted only a tremendous 
loss; the lease and share farms have 
drank money like the thirsty bed of the 
Canadian; only State owned farms are 
safe. 

The testimony shows that the State 
should own from 50,000 to 75,000 acres 
of fine farming land; it now owns about 
25,000 acres, all but 8,000 acres of which 
are already in cultivation, — the figures 
referring only to the choice farming 
land. 

Convicts can not be cared for in proper 
manner on farms which the State does 
not own, simply because the owners can- 
not afford to erect the jail buildings in 
a sanitary way. The State's experience 
in the Ransom matter, elsewhere de- 
tailed, should settle that point. 

I dissent from the conclusion of the 
majority that the lower Brazos is now 
an unhealthy country. The testimony 
says otherwise. (Tittle, Brahan, Dr. 
Bush, Tram well, House, and others.) 

Now, the evidence overwhelmingly 
shows that the Rusk and Huntsville in- 
stitutions are sinkholes for money; that 
formerly the system made money in spite 
of them, not because of them; that the 
isolated location of each is a serious 
handicap from every view-point; that a 
headquarters should be located else- 
where. If the system is to be consoli- 
dated, headquarters should be in the 
neighborhood of the farms. If the pres- 
ent farms are retained the headquarters 
should be in their vicinity; if they are 
sold and others bought, the central 
prison should be located near them. 

Many witnesses testified to the desira- 
bility of a central prison. (T. W. House, 
p. 23; W. H. Gill, p. 1; L. W. Tittle, 
pp. 6-8; J. A. Herring, p. 16.) There 
should be only one penitentiahy. (B. 
E. Cabell, P. 22.) "The system should 
be centralized and located at Columbia 
on the Brazos." (J. M. Moore, p. 2.) 
The Rusk penitentiary should be aban- 
doned. (Barton, 10; R. W. Brahan, 
13.) One witness said the system should 
be moved into the cotton country. (J. 
A. Herring, p. 19.) 

Convict Discipline. 

The biggest single problem is the main- 
tenance of convict discipline. Were the 
prisoners normal men, the problem 
would solve itself; their presence proves 
them not normal men. As a class, on the 
outside, they refused to submit to author- 
ity. Of 3,471 prisoners accounted for 
January 1, 1912, 962 were convicted of 
burglary, 764 of murder, 144 of rape, 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



37 



113 of robbery and 541 of theft. Those 
figures are given to show the character 
of the individuals. How to keep them 
together, make them self-supporting and 
yet treat them kindly is the real prob- 
lem. It is as old as civilized govern- 
ment and has been "'solved" a thousand 
times. Penologists have written vol- 
umes about it: politicians have shed 
tears over it; statesmen with patriotism 
and courage in their hearts have grap- 
pled with it, and yet we have it with us. 

The most serious trouble with the sys- 
tem now is the lack of convict discipline. 
(J. M. Moore, prison auditor, p. 7.) 

The old law permitted whipping only 
in aggravated cases, but left much discre- 
tion in the hands of employes and some 
cruelties resulted. The new law pro- 
vides for whipping but so safeguards it 
as to prevent abuses: so far as the com- 
mittee could learn there has been no 
abuse whatever of the rights of punish- 
ment by whipping under the new law. 
Early in 1912 the Prison Commission 
published a declaration that the use of 
the whip would be discontinued. (See 
minutes of Prison Commission.) 

Beyond any doubt, according to the 
testimony, this step has caused tre- 
mendous trouble. The law gives the 
commission the right to refuse to order 
a whipping and the proper course would 
have been to refuse each separate appli- 
cation, if they desired. Instead, public 
notice was given that he whip would be 
used no more and in its stead were 
adopted the dark cell and the chain. 

The former of these methods, the testi- 
mony says, is of very little value, par- 
ticularly among the negroes, who regard 
it with* good-natured contempt. (Addi- 
son. Weems, Tramwell, Palmer et al.) 

The latter method is generally con- 
ceded to be more cruel and much less 
effective than the whip. (Brooks, Mills, 
South, et al.) 

There is much testimony that under 
the new law very few whippings were 
necessary, and that the discontinuance 
of the whip led to riots, mutinies, at- 
tacks on guards resulting in loss of life, 
and similar trouble. (Brooks, Mills, 
Lewis, et al. ) 

Convict Labor. 

It is plain that if the convicts do not 
work they will not be self-sustaining. 
The law limiting a day's work on the 
farm to ten hours is blamed with much 
trouble, but probably inefficient man- 
agement, clock-watching guards, and the 
discontinuance of the whip have entered 



into the making of present conditions 
as well as the ten hour limit. 

One witness who has handled convicts 
since 1874 says they cannot be made 
self-supporting under present labor 
limit, without the whip. (W. W. Ber- 
tram, p. 9.) The capacity of the pris- 
oners for iron industry work has been 
cut in half by labor limit and loss of the 
whip. (W. "H. Lewis, p. 4.) On the 
Clemens farm the prisoners work .ten 
and one-fifth acres of land per man, free 
labor in same community works 24 
acres per man. (Brooks/ p. 6; E. B. 
Mills, p. 7.) On the Imperial farm the 
convicts work ten hours per day in busy 
season,- free labor in same community 
works fourteen or fifteen hours. (Ad- 
dison, p. 3.) Under the former law 
they worked about twenty acres per 
man; now twelve or fourteen. (T. W. 
House, p. 9.) 

The testimony is absolutely unanimous 
that the convicts do not do as much 
work per man as free laborers engaged 
in the same kind of work, probably not 
one-half as much as an average. 

Convict labor is not satisfactorv for 
manufacturing purposes at all. ('Gill: 
Herring, et al.) 

Farm Managers. 

Each of the State's four splendid 
plantations, as well as the two magnifi- 
cent leased plantations is under imme- 
diate charge of a farm manager. This 
is a good position. It carries a salarv 
of from $150.00 to $175.00 per month, 
house rent, commissary supplies, horses, 
horse feed and abundant convict service. 

Each of these men is competent and 
well fitted for this work. (J. A. Her- 
I ring, p. 15.; 

T. C. Blakely, manager at Harlem, re- 
ceived his training under the old law, 
and declared that good work cannot be 
obtained from convicts under the new 
law, if they do not want to work, which 
most of them do not. (T. C. Blakely, p. 
3-20-21.) 

E. C. Mills, manager at Clemens, is 
not in sympathy with the new law. 'Re- 
ceived 1 is training under the old law. 
(E. B. Mills, p. 10.) 

J. X. South, manager at Harlem, says 
"bat" is convict's best friend; received 
his training under the old law; criti- 
cizes new law freely; says under new 
law convicts cultivate ten acres per man 
as agaii st twentv acres per man under 
old law. (J. X/South, p. 3.) 

A. K. Addison, manager at Imperial; 
K. F. Cunningham, manager at Areola, 
and J. H. Weems, manager at Retrieve, 



38 



Report and Findings of 



all criticize new law freely, and say good 
work cannot be gotten under it. Weems 
did not receive his training under old 
law. (Weems, p. 1; Cunningham, p. 
1-5; Addison, p. 1-9.) 

These six farms are located close to- 
gether and connection between them is 
easy. If under one manager instead of 
six, better co-operation and better serv- 
ice could be had, and the system's pay 
roll • would be reduced about ten thou- 
sand dollars per year and a similar sav- 
ing effected in supplies, horse feed, etc. 

Litigation. 

The litigation now pending, to which 
the system is party, consists of two 
suits, one in Walker county, the other in 
Fort Bend county, with the Imperial 
Sugar Company. These matters are in 
the courts and outside the jurisdiction 
of the committee. 

Religious Services. 

Little i£ any effort appears to have 
been made to provide religious services 
or literature for the prisoners. The 
testimony of the venerable chaplain of 
the system, Dr. T. H. Hall, is interest- 
ing, but too lengthy for reproduction. 
He says there is an urgent need of 
Bibles, that many of the convicts can 
read a little and that many of them 
beg for Bibles. 

Wearing of Stripes. 

The old law contained no restriction 
as to wearing of stripes; the new law 
limits stripes to prisoners of the third 
class. ' 

The testimony shows that wearing of 
stripes is not effective as a punishment, 
and that keeping prisoners in stripes 
with other prisoners has a demoralizing 
effect on all prisoners; that segregation 
of third class prisoners is necessary. 
(Palmer, W T eems, Cunningham, Moore 
and others.) 

Guards. 

The question of guard service is a most 
perplexing one. The guards come into 
immediate touch with the prisoners. 
With the efficient guards almost any law 
will succeed; with drunken, worthless 
guards, no law will suceed. It is fre- 
quently necessary to discharge guards for 
drunkenness and misconduct. (Running- 
ham, p. 2; South, p. 15.) Using \trusties 
as guards would be a dangerous land un- 
successful experiment. (Herring, p. 13.; 
Tittle, p. 28; Addison, p. 4; "Blackley, 
p. 24, and many others.) 

Number of guards could be greatly re- 
duced. (Thomas, p. 20.) 



The guards are in sympathy with that 
part of the new law limiting the hours 
of work; they watch the clock closely. 
(House, p. 15.) 

Bookkeeping. 

On this subject the entire testimony 
of F. J. Huey is very interesting, as also 
the prison auditor, J. M. Moore. 

The books are worthless and do not 
give the farms justice. (Blakeley, p. 
22; Addison, p. 15.) No correct system 
of cost keeping has ever been devised 
for the prison industries. (Barton; p. 
14.) The method of checking supplies is 
defective. (Cabell, p. 19.) 

The Factories. 

The testimony of Judge W. H. Gill at 
Houston throws light on the question of 
prison manufacturing. He says: 

"None of those manufacturing depart- 
ments has ever been operated except at 
a loss. The convict can't lose his job, 
and if he gets sullen and feels he has 
been treated wrong, just one stroke of 
a hammer will queer a piece of machin- 
ery, and you don't know how or when 
it will happen. They have not made 
stuff that appealed to the market, and 
what they make is not made economical- 
ly. Yet, some of them have to be kept in 
the walls, and they should be furnished 
employment." (W. H. Gill, p. 7.) 

No factory at Huntsville or Rusk has 
ever paid, but some men have to be kept 
in the walls, and should be employed* 
(Barton, p. 9.) 

These statements are sustained by 
abundant other testimony. 

Cotton Growing. 

One witness with an extended experi- 
ence with the prison system says that 
the system should be moved several 
hundred miles further north into what 
he terms the cotton country. (J. A. 
Herring, p. 11.) 

Numerous others testify that if the 
State can not make money growing 
cotton in the lower Brazos valley, it 
can not make money growing cot- 
ton anywhere in the world. (House, 
Trammell, Gill, Eldridge, Pierson, Ber- 
tram, and other.) 

Discharged Convicts. 

The records show that about fifteen 
per cent of the convicts discharged find 
their way back into prison again. Un- 
doubtedly, when a convict is discharged 
from prison, he faces a crisis. Without 
wasting words on the subject, it would 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



39 



seem profitable as a matter of public 
policy, and as a matter of humanity, to 
have a discharged-convict officer to as- 
sist the discharged ones in getting em- 
ployment and another start in the world. 
Certain of the prison employes have done 
excellent work along this line. (A. E. 
King, p. 8.) But there should be a 
regular officer for the task. 

Recommendations. 

To the end that humane policies of 
treatment may be continued and financial 
loss wiped out or reduced to a minimum, 
I recommend legislation as follows : 

1st. Abandonment of Rusk and 
Huntsville prisons; consolidation of the 
system at or near the city of Houston 
or some other centrally located point; 
that all prisoners be worked on farms 
owned by the State wherever possible; 
that such additional lands as may be 
necessary to carry out this policy be 
acquired; that additional lands be ac- 
quired in the vicinity of present hold- 
ings, or the present holdings be sold 
and other lands purchased elsewhere. 

2nd. Creation of a board composed 
of the Comptroller, the Attorney General 
and the State Treasurer who shall ap- 
point a general superintendent whose 
powers and duties shall correspond to 
the duties and powers of the superin- 
tendent under the old law, to receive a 
salary of not less than six thousand dol- 
lars per year. 

3rd. Repeal of the convict per diem 
article. 

4th. Sale of the Rusk-Palestine rail- 
road if buyer can be found; if buyer 
can not be found then it should be aban- 
doned. 

5th. That prison funds be paid into 
the State Treasury direct; that the sys- 
tem be supported by direct appropria- 
tion and that funds be paid out only on 
Comptroller's warrant. 

6th. The installation of a complete 
and thorough system of bookkeeping, so 
as to account for each item received and 
each item or bit of money disbursed. 

7th. Such revision' of the article lim- 
iting the hours of labor as will require 
a good day's work of each prisoner, hav- 
ing due regard to his physical condition. 

8th. State-wide suppression of the 
liquor traffic as soon as it can be done; 
until then such restrictive legislation as 
will reduce the sale of liquors to a mini- 
mum. 



9th. That the grading and classifica- 
tion of prisoners be left to the com- 
mission, but that whites, Mexicans and 
negroes be separated; that a separate 
camp or camps for incorrigibles be estab- 
lished and that wearing of stripes be 
abolished. 

10th. That commissioners' salaries be 
reduced to $6.00 per day and expenses 
while on official duty; that depart- 
mental feature of commission be abol- 
ished; that the members of the com- 
mission be not required to live at Hunts- 
ville; that they be not required to de- 
vote their entire time to the system. 

11th. Complete revision of the salary 
list and employe list, and that all em- 
ployes not in sympathy with the law be 
discharged; that the positions of farm 
manager, purchasing and sales agent, be 
created; that the powers of the prison 
auditor be so enla-rged that the office 
may be useful ; that all employes of the 
system be appointed by the prison com- 
mission, by and with the consent of the 
general superintendent. 

12th. Venue of all suits by and 
against the prison commission should be 
laid in Travis county. 

13th. That the articles of the new 
law providing for shipment of corpses 
of deceased prisoners, and furnishing 
transportation to discharged prisoners 
be repealed and the old law upon those 
points be re-enacted. 

14th. That the commission be re- 
quired to provide religious services and 
religious literature for the prisoners. 

15th. That an officer to be known as 
the discharged-convict agent be appoint- 
ed by the Commission, with the consent 
of the superintendent whose duty it 
shall be to assist discharge convicts to 
find work and get another start in the 
world. 

16th. That all the testimony taken 
by the committee, the three audits of the 
system's books made by Mr. Huey, and 
these reports, be printed for the informa- 
tion of the people. 

17th. That the new law remain as 
it now is except for the changes herein- 
before proposed. 

I confidently believe that the adoption 
of the above and foregoing recommenda- 
tons will enormously reduce the expenses 
of the system, and correspondingly in- 
crease the revenues, and insure to the 
prisoners better treatment than in the 
past. 

HUMPHREY. 



40 



Keport and Findings of 



WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2 3, A. D. 
1913, AT AUSTIN, TEXAS. 

The Committee appointed under 
Concurrent House Resolution No. 27 
to investigate the financial records 
and transactions and the general 
business conduct of the penitentiary- 
system, and to make report of its 
investigations to the Governor, met 
at 2 o'clock on this day in the office 
of the Secretary of the State Senate, 
in Austin, Texas, for the purpose of 
beginning its investigation under 
said resolution, and there were pres- 
ent Lieutenant Governor Will H. 
Mayes, Senators John G. Willacy and 
Robert L. Warren, appointed from 
the members of the Senate, and Rep- 
resentatives R. B. Humphreys, W. O. 
Diffie and L. Tillotson, appointed 
from the members of the House. 

The Committee organized by elect- 
ing Lieutenant Governor Will H. 
Mayes, Chairman, Representative 
R. B. Humphreys, Vice-Chairman, 
and C. D. Hester of Throckmorton, 
Texas, Secretary and Stenographer. 
On motion, it was agreed that the 
salary of the Secretary and Stenogra- 
pher be fixed at $5.00 per day from 
the time he begins his work for the 
Committee until his work is com- 
pleted, together with actual and 
necessary traveling and hotel ex- 
penses while in the service of said 
Committee. Mr. Humphreys was in- 
structed to notify Mr. Hester of his 
election, and to request him to report 
at Austin for duty at once. 

The following resolution as to the 
compensation to the members of the 
Committee was unanimously adopted 

Resolved, That the compensation 
of each member of the Committee 
shall be computed from the time of 
his departure from home until his 
return to his home by most direct 
route of travel, and provided that no 
member shall receive pay for time 
covered by absence from the Com- 
mittee meetings unless excused by a 
majority vote, and no member shall 
have his traveling expenses paid ex- 
cept when traveling upon business of 
the Committee, or going to or re- 
turning from a Committee meeting. 

(Signed) R. B. HUMPHREYS, 
L. TILLOTSON. 

The Chair laid before the Commit- 
tee for its guidance a copy of House 



Concurrent Resolution No. 27, which 
reads as follows: 

HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLU- 
TION No. 27. HOUSE CON- 
CURRENT RESOLUTION. 

Whereas, No action has been taken 
under the provisions of the Simple 
Resolution adopted by the House on 
March 12, of record in the House 
Journal, on page 1154; now, there- 
fore, be it 

Resolved, By the House of Repre- 
sentatives, the Senate concurring: 

First — That there is hereby con- 
stituted a joint committee of six 
members, three to be appointed from 
the membership of the House, by the 
Speaker, two to be appointed from 
the membership of the Senate, by the 
Lieutenant Governor, and the Lieu- 
tenant Governer is hereby made the 
third member of said Senate Com- 
mittee. 

Second — That said committee be 
authorized and instructed to investi- 
gate the financial records and finan- 
cial transactions, and the general 
business conduct of the penitentiary 
system as far back as said committee, 
in its discretion, may deem advisable. 

Third — That said comnrttee shall 
make a report to the Governor, 
recommending such changes or re- 
forms in the financial conduct of the 
penitentiary system as they may 
deem advisable, and shall report, in 
full, to the Governor all valuable per- 
tinent information which they may 
be able to obtain with reference to 
the financial conduct of said peniten- 
tiary system. 

Fourth — If the Thirty-third Legis- 
lature shall be reconvened in extra 
session immediately after sine die 
adjournment of the regular session, 
then this resoution shall not be effec- 
tive; but if the Thirty-third Legisla- 
ture shall not be reconvened in extra 
session immediately after said ad- 
journment, then said committee shall, 
within thirty days after sine die ad- 
journment, organize and begin the 
work herein provided for; and shall 
make the report provided for in Para- 
graph 3, on or before the First Called 
Session of the Thirty-third Legisla- 
ture. 

Fourth A — The fact that the Regu- 
lar Session of the Thirty-third Legis- 
lature is drawing to a close, and the 
further fact that there is not suffi- 
cient money available to pay the con- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



41 



tingent expense of the said session, 
creates an emergency and an impera- 
tive public necessity that the consti- 
tutional rule requiring bills to be 
read upon three several days shall 
be suspended, and the same is hereby 
suspended, and this resolution be 
placed upon its third reading and 
final passage, and it is so enacted. 

Fifth — The members of said com- 
mittee shall each receive five dollars 
per day and their actual, necessary 
traveling expenses, and may employ 
all necessary stenographical and cler- 
ical help, to be paid out of the State 
-reasury upon warrants issued by 
the Comptroller based upon a sworn 
statement, and to be paid out of the 
contingent expense fund of the Thir- 
ty-third Legislature. The sum of five 
thousand dollars, or so much thereof 
asc may be necessary, is hereby ap- 
propriatel out of any money in the 
State Treasury not otherwise appro- 
priated, to defray the contingent ex- 
penses of the Thirty-third Legisla- 
ture. 

CHESTER H. TERRELL, 
Speaker of the House. 

WILL H. MAYES, 

President of the Senate. 

I hereby certify that House Con- 
current Resolution No. 27 was passed 
by the House on March 29, 1913, and 
that House concurred in Senate 
amendments on March 31, 1913, by 
the following vote: Yeas 97, nays 7. 
W. R. LONG, 
Chief Cerk of the House. 

I hereby certify that House Con- 
current Resolution No. 27 was passed 
by the Senate, with amendments, on 
March 31, 1913, by the following 
vote: Yeas 2,, nays 0. 

W. V. HOWERTON, 
Secretary of the Senate. 

Received in Executive Office this 
first day of April, A. D. 1913, at 11 

o'clock and minutes, a. m. 

J. T. BOWMAN, 

Private Secretary. 
Approved, April 1, 1913. 

O. B. COLQUITT, 

Governor. 

Received in Department of State, 
this first day of April, A. D. 1913, at 

2 o'clock and minutes, p. m. 

D. A. GREGG, 
Acting Secretary of State. 

The following communication from 
the Governor to the commissioners 
of the penitentiary system — a copy 



of which had been forwarded to each 
member of the Investigating Com- 
mittee — was read, and made a part 
of the minutes of the committee: 

April 16, 1913. 
Hon. Will H. Mayes, 

Brownwood, Texas. 
D/ear Governor: 

I am handing you herewith copy 
of a letter which I have this date 
written to the Prison Commissioners, 
which is self-explanatory. 

Inasmuch as you will begin your 
inquiry into the business manage- 
ment of the prison system on the 
23rd, I thought it not a bad idea to 
send you a copy of this letter. 
Yours truly, 

O. B. COLQUITT, 

Governor. 
(Copy.) 

Austin, Texas, April 18, 1913. 
Board of Prison Commissioners, 
Huntsville, Texas. 

Gentlemen: By appointment I 
have today discussed the business 
management and prison finances of 
the prison system with Mr. F. J. 
Huey, Certified Public Accountant, 
who has been auditing your books, 
and Mr. J. M. Moore, recently elected 
by the Attorney General, State Treas- 
urer and Comptroller as Penitentiary 
Auditor. 

They have submitted to me a state- 
ment of your assets and liabilities, 
showing your loss from operation for 
the year ending December 31, 1911, 
to be $306,0^,21; loss from opera- 
tion for the year ending December 
31, 1912, to be $416,753.20, and fire 
loss in 1911 of $2~90,192.69, showing 
a loss from operation for two years 
of $1,012,966.10. Of course, the fire 
loss cannot properly be charged as a 
loss from operation, but the state- 
ment as presented to me shows that 
the total loss from operation for two 
years has been the amount shown 
above. 

I am advised by both of these gen- 
tlemen that the system of ac- 
counts and the manner of keep- 
ing books is absolutely untrust- 
worthy. Mr. Moore states, with- 
out equivocation, that in his opin- 
ion many petty thefts result from 
your manner of handling your store 
and other suppies on your farms; 
that your losses at Rusk are heavy 
and the keeping of your accounts at 



42 



Report and Findings of 



Huntsville is unsatisfactory and very 
imperfect. The system of keeping 
the cost of materials is also unrelia- 
ble. 

It does seem to me that an institu- 
tion of the importance of the prison 
system ought to be able to install a 
system of accounting and keeping 
books which would be absolutely 
trustworthy and reliable. 

I have not in the past sought to 
interfere with you in the selection of 
your help in running the prison sys- 
tem. I do -not beieve there are over 
three men in the entire service ap- 
pointed by you upon my recommenda- 
tion, but from this day forward I am 
going ' to insist that you discharge 
every incompetent man and that you 
begin at once to clean them out. I 
have asked members of the com- 
mittee appointed by the two Houses 
of the Legislature to investigate the 
business management of the prison 
system; to make a thorough and 
scrutinizing investigation and report 
to me and to the Legislature. I have 
asked them to call upon Mr. Moore, 
your auditor, to assist them. 

The expense of running the Prison 
system is one of the most important 
parts of administering the law for 
its government, and henceforth I 
shall insist on not a dollar being ex- 
pended except upon the audit of Mr. 
Moore, the Auditor, and O. K.'d by 
him before it will be approved by me, 
and I want to know what it costs and 
how it is appropriated and used. In- 
asmuch as the details of administer- 
ing the Prison System have been im- 
posed upon me by . the appropriation 
of $450,000 I shall have to insist upon 
you gentlemen discharging every un- 
necessary man, and require of each 
employee the strictest accounting for 
every dollar handled by him and 
every pound of groceries and every 
yard of cloth. The time has come now 
when I must act for myself in this 
matter in the purchase of supplies 
and the disbursement of moneys ap- 
propriated by the Legislature. It im- 
poses an enormous amount of labor 
upon me which I ought not to have 
to perform. 

I ask you to furnish me with requi- 
sitions for supplies of various kinds 
that you may. need right away so that 
I may have the State Revenue Agent 
look into the matter and make pur- 
chases of same. I will write a let- 
ter to Mr. Moore and ask him as Au- 
ditor of the Prison System, elected 



by a board over whom I have no con- 
trol, to O. K. requisitions which you 
may make for supplies, for food and 
clothing and materials for consump- 
tion in the system. We must reduce 
the management of the Prison Sys- 
tem now to a business basis, and I 
ask you for your co-operation. 
Yours truly, 

O. B. COLQUITT, 

Governor." 

Senator Warren and Representative 
Tillotson were appointed a Committee 
to notify the Governor that the peni- 
tentiary investigating committee had 
been organized, and was ready to be- 
gin to work, and invited the Gover- 
nor to appear before said Committee 
for such conferences concerning the 
committee's work. The Committee ap- 
pointed to notify the Governor re- 
ported that they had called on the 
Governor, and that he stated he had 
no special communication to make at 
this time, but that he hopes the com- 
mittee's investigation would be most 
thorough and painstaking to the end 
that irregularities, if any, might be 
ascertained; that the faults of the 
system might be learned, and that re- 
commendations might be made look- 
ing to the placing of the penitentiary 
system on as nearly as possible a sub- 
stantial basis while maintaining a hu- 
manitarian treatment of the State's 
prisoners. The Governor further 
stated that he would feel at liberty 
to appear before the committee from 
time to time with any information in 
his possession and with any sugges- 
tions that might occur to him, and in- 
vited the committee to call upon him 
whenever in its opinion he might be 
able to render any service. 

After discussion it was agreed that 
the investigation of the committee be 
for the present confined as largely 
as possible to the. period beginning 
January 20, 1911, and continuing to 
the present time; the same being the 
time under which the penitentiary 
system has been operated under the 
present law. It was agreed that 
should the investigation covering this 
period indicate a necessity for looking 
into penitentiary affairs prior to Jan- 
uary 20, 1911, that such inquiry would 
be made. The chairman placed before 
the committee the reports, letters and 
other information from the prison 
commissioners on file in the office of 
the Governor including the audit re- 
ports of 1912 made by Auditor Huey. 
The report of A. M. Barton made to 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



43 



the Senate in compliance with Senate 
Resolution, except exhibits F, G, H, 
I and J, were placed before the Com- 
mittee. The chair stated he was in- 
formed by Secretary Howerton of the 
Senate, with whom Auditor Barton's 
report was ordered filed, that the miss- 
ing parts of said reports had been de- 
livered by Howerton to Senator Wein- 
ert, and that Howerton understood 
that said report had been turned over 
by Senator Weinert to Representa- 
tives Wortham and Hill of the House. 
The chair was instructed to commun- 
icate with the Representatives "Worth- 
am and Hill arid Senator Weinert 
with a view to locating said report. 
Secretary Howerton was interrogated, 
and reported the delivery of the miss- 
ing parts of Auditor Barton's report 
to Senator Weinert, stating that Sena- 
tor Weinert told him that he desired 
it for the use of Representative 
Wortham, Chairman of the House Ap- 
propriation Committee, and that said 
report had never been returned to 
him, 

The committee agreed to spend the 
rest of the week in Austin looking 
over penitentiary reports — studying 
data, and informing itself as to peni- 
tentiary affairs, and to meet in Hunts- 
ville on Tuesday, April 29, for the pur- 
pose of continuing the investigation 
there. Senator Willacy was excused 
from attendance upon the committee 
meetings until April 29 on account of 
illness in his family. 

It was agreed that the meetings of 
the committee should be open to the 
public unless in the opinion of the 
committee occasion might arise for 
making any of the sessions executive, 
and that the investigations of the com- 
mittee should be of an informal na- 
ture. 

The chair was instructed to request 
former Auditor Barton to appear be- 
fore the committee at Huntsville at 
its meeting, Tuesday, April 29, 1913. 



THURSDAY, APRIL 2 4, 1913, AT 
AUSTIN, TEXAS. 

The committee met in the office 
of the Secretary of the Senate, and 
proceeded with the examination of 
the audit made by Auditor Huey 
for the year 1912 and of the reports 
and communications from the Gov- 
ernor's office. Governor Colquitt ap- 
peared before the committee and 
gave at some length his views upon 
the prison affairs of the State; 



the reasons as they occurred to 
him for the losses of the past 
two years, and suggested some 
of the ways by which in his 
opinion future losses might be 
avoided. Governor Colquitt stated 
that in his opinion the commis- 
sion form of government as applied 
to the prison system is a failure, and 
that the management of the Texas 
prisons should be placed in the 
hands of one superintendent upon 
which the entire responsibility far 
the proper management of the sys- 
tem could be placed. He further 
stated that he believed that at least 
one-half of the civilian guards of the 
system could be dispensed with and 
replaced by trusty convict guards. 
He stated he believed that the laws 
at present largely militate against 
the success of the prison manage- 
ment, and that these laws should be 
substantially amended. 

He reiterated his statement that 
he hopes the committee would make 
a most thorough and exhaustive in- 
vestigation of all the affairs of the 
prison system with a view to recom- 
mending such improvements in the 
system and changes in the law as 
might be found best. The Governor 
and the committee held an informal 
conference regarding prison affairs 
which lasted about two hours; going 
into minute details regarding the 
system. 

After the noon recess Comptroller 
Lane appeared before the committee 
bringing with him the audited vouch- 
ers furnished by the prison commis- 
sioners on which payments have been 
made by the State Treasurer since 
the Thirty-third Legislature made an 
appropriation for the maintenance of 
the prison system. He stated that 
prior to this time no vouchers of 
this kind had come through his office. 
He recommended that the Comptroll- 
er's office should audit all the ac- 
counts of the Prison system just as 
it does the accounts of the other de- 
partments and institutions in the 
State government. 

The Chairman of the Committee 
was instructed to have the State 
Treasurer make up for its use a com- 
plete statement of all moneys re- 
ceived by him since January 20, 1911, 
on account of the prison system, to- 
gether with all moneys paid out on 
that account. 

The Chairman was also instructed 
to make an effort by wire or tele- 
phone to locate the report made by 



44 



Report and Findings of 



former Auditor Barton to the Senate 
and filed ' with the Secretary of the 
Senate. 

Senator Warren was excused from 
attendance upon the sessions of the 
Committee until its meeting in 
Huntsville on Tuesday, April 29, 
1913. 



FRIDAY, APRIL 25, 1913, AT AUS- 
TIN, TEXAS. 

The Committee spent the day in 
the study of the reports and letters 
before it, but holding no formal ses- 
sion. 

Secretary Hester of the Commit- 
tee appeared during the day and re- 
torted for duty. 



SATURDAY, APRIL 2 6, 1913, AT 
AUSTIN, TEXAS. 

The day was given, as yesterday, 
to the consideration and study of the 
prison documents and communica- 
tions. No formal session was held. 
Members of the Committee in Aus- 
tin agreed that it would be best to 
leave on Sunday for Huntsville in or- 
der that they might arrive there on 
Monday ready to begin further work 
on Tuesday. 



TUESDAY, APRIL 29, 1913, AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Pursuant to adjournment, the 
Committee met at Huntsville April 
29, 1913, at 2 o'clock p. m. in the 
chamber of the prison commission- 
ers at Huntsville, Texas; all mem- 
bers of the Committee present ex- 
cept Senator Warren. 

After Chairman Will H. Mayes 
announced the Committee in session, 
Mr. Ben E. Cabell, Chairman of the 
Prison Commission, arose and read 
the following letter addressed to the 
Committee from , the Senate and 
House of Representatives: 

"April 29th, 1913. 
"To the Committee from the State 
Senate and House of Representa- 
tives. 

"Gentlemen: We are very glad 
to see you here, and wish to extend 
to you every facility in carrying out 
the purposes of your visit. You were 
invited and requested by us at the 
last session of the Legislature to 



come and make a most thorough in- 
vestigation of everything pertaining 
to the prison system. We wish you 
to make a most thorough investiga- 
tion of the law under which we are 
operating and how well have the 
Commissioners carried out the law. 

"We have here for your informa- 
tion the prison law by which we are 
governed, the minute book showing, 
or should show you all transactions 
of the Commission; also the reports 
of the certified auditor for the year 
1910, the year before we assumed 
control, and the years 1911 and 1912, 
giving full account of all financial 
transactions. With this information 
you can point out such defects in our 
present law as may appear to you. 
We would ask you to look well into 
the additional expense imposed, such 
as the creation of the different of- 
fices, salaries, per diem and over- 
time to convicts, the great difference 
in working hours on our farms as 
compared with previous law, the 
care and treatment of the convicts, 
and the various kinds and charac- 
ter of improvements. 

"We wish your investigation to be 
most thorough and complete. We 
are interested in the result of your 
labors as citizens as well as Com- 
missioners. We believe that you will 
recommend such changes in the law 
as will greatly strengthen it. Texas 
is entitled to a good prison law and 
you gentlemen can do much to make 
it. The Prison Commissioners and 
all the employes are at your service. 
While the law gives you the perfect 
right to go to the prisons and farms 
at will we further extend you this in- 
vitation and include with it all the 
representatives of the press. 
"Yours respectfully, 

"(Signed) BEN E. CABELL, 

"LOUIS W. TITTLE, 
"R. W. BRAHAN, 
"Prison Commissioners." 

After the reading of the above let- 
ter by Mr. Ben E. Cabell, Chairman 
Wtill H. Mayes arose and thanked the 
Prison Commissioners for their kind 
expressions and proffered help to the 
members of the Committee. 

During the meeting telegram was 
received from Senator Robt. L. War- 
ren stating he would be at Phelps 
Tuesday night, and the Chairman of 
the Committee was authorized to 
have conveyance meet Senator War- 
ren at Phelps, and to advise Senator 
Warren he would be so met. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



45 



Suggestion was made that the com- 
mittee at this time definitely out- 
line the scope of the work of the 
investigation, but after discussion, it 
was decided to hear statement made 
by Mr. Barton, the former auditor of 
the penitentiary system, before for- 
mulating any definite plans. Mr. 
Barton appeared before the Commit- 
tee, and after making statement, was 
interrogated by the different mem- 
bers of the Committee and other 
persons present. 

The Committee adjourned until 
9 o'clock a. m. Wednesday, with Mr. 
Barton still on the stand. 



WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 1913, AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Morning Session. 

The Committee met at 9 o'clock 
Wednesday morning, all members 
present, composed of Senator Robt. 
L. Warren, Senator John G. Wil- 
lacy, Mr. L. Tillotson, Mr. W. O. 
Diffie, Mr. R. B. Humphreys, and 
Chairman Will H. Mayes, and the 
interrogation of Mr. A. M. Barton 
was resumed and continued until 12 
o'clock m., at which time the Com- 
mittee adjourned until 2 p. m. 

Afternoon Session. 

Mr. J. A. Herring was interrogated 
all the afternoon by members of the 
Investigating Committee. 

Adjourned at 6 o'clock p. m. 



THURSDAY, MAY 1, 1913, AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Morning Session. 

Committee met at 10:30 o'clock, 
all present except R. B. Humphreys, 
he being ill and confined to his room. 
The testimony of Special Auditor of 
the Penitentiary System P. J. Huey 
was taken. 

Afternoon Session. 

The best possible way of proceed- 
ing with the investigation was dis- 
cussed by members of the Commit- 
tee. Senator John G. Willacy sug- 
gested that the Committee have T. 
W. House and Mr. W. T. Eldridge 



appear before the Committee, or 
have them meet the Committee at 
Houston. Chairman Will H. Mayes 
suggested that the Committee have 
the Commissioners of the Prison 
System, beginning with Chairman 
Cabell and on down, probably in- 
cluding bookkeepers, stenographers, 
wardens of the prisons, the foremen 
of the different enterprises before it 
and continue the investigation at 
Rusk and on the different farms. It 
was decided by the Committee that 
they would interrogate Auditor John 
M. Moore, which they did and lasted 
until adjournment of this session, 
and on the morrow they would pro- 
ceed with the examination of the 
Commissioners, commencing with 
Chairman Cabell. 

Committee adjourned at 6 o'clock, 
and to meet at 9 o'clock on tomor- 
row morning. « 



FRIDAY, MAY 2, 1913, AT HUNTS- 
VILLE, TEXAS. 

Morning Session. 

The Committee met at 9 o'clock, 
at which time Mr. Ben E. Cabell took 
the stand and interrogations were 
propounded by the Committee, which 
lasted all the morning. 

The Committee recessed until 2 
p. m. 

Afternoon Session. 

R. W. Brahan took the stand and 
was interrogated by the different 
members of the Committee which 
lasted the entire afternoon. 



SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Morning Session. 

The Committee met at 9 o'clock, 
and it was moved by members of 
the Committee that they go into ex- 
ecutive meeting. Chairman Will H. 
Mayes proceeded by asking the mem- 
bers if they had suggestions to offer. 
Mr. W. O. Diffie took the floor and 
made the following statement: 

"In view of the fact our Chair- 
man has to go away, and we have 
not had a conference meeting, I 
thought probably we might spend 
a few minutes in consultation. I 



46 



Report and Findings of 



realize we ought to be at home, and 
know the members' business is neg- 
lected, and that we are away from 
our families and realize the import- 
ance of our work, as the eyes of 
the people of Texas are on this Com- 
mittee, and we regret to lose th^ 
Governor for today and tomorrow, 
but I think the work assigned him is 
of great importance. However, we 
can consult with him, and have 
meetings with him, which will be 
very helpful to the balance of us 
In making a report; but feel like as 
long as we have a quorum of the 
Committee we ought to go ahead and 
visit Rusk and the farms, as I feel 
like the House of Representatives 
will want to know from us what has 
been done. I only suggest this and 
will follow, as I am not a leader." 

To this Lieutenant Governor Will 
H. Mayes replied: 

"I am going to Austin to work, 
as I have to compile some data at 
Austin. I have an idea it will take 
three or four days at Austin, or pos- 
sibly a week, and from there we 
expect to come to Huntsville, but the 
other committee will hardly be 
through here for three or four weeks. 
We want to take up every case, and 
listen personally to every man who 
wants to come before us, and it may 
take three or four, or maybe six 
weeks' work, and of course there 
will be an effort on the part of every 
prisoner to see me, as I am a little 
closer to the Governor than any 
other member of the Committee. As 
stated yesterday, I will be on every 
farm and at all the prisons during 
that time, and I have before been 
on all the farms except the Shaw 
farm, and will make as close study 
as I can, and will make a memoran- 
dum of such things as I can for the 
benefit of this Committee, and will 
be with you all the time I can, and 
I can probably devote one-half of 
my time to this Committee." 

The members of the committee 
discussed their future proceedings, 
and it was decided to visit the Goree 
farm the next day, Sunday, May 3, 
and in the evening take the train to 
Rusk, so as to proceed with the in- 
vestigation at that place on Monday, 
May 4. 

Governor Mayes made motion that 
the secretary and stenographer after 
completing his work at Rusk, re- 
turn to Huntsville and work on his 
minutes until completed, or until 



such time as the Committee would 
meet at Houston, May 19, 1913. 

Chairman Will H. Mayes at 10 
o'clock was excused by the members 
of the Committee, he going from 
here to Austin, and Vice Chairman 
R. B. Humphreys took the chair. 

The rest of the morning was de- 
voted to the examination of Louis 
W. Tittle and J. B. Robinett, book- 
keeper. 

Recessed at 12 o'clock until 2 
o'clock. 

Afternoon Session. 

The afternoon was devoted by the 
Committee to the examination of Dr. 
Bush, J. C. Haynes, R. M. Warden, 
Prank M. Nash and Albert E. King. 

Senator Robert L. Warren was ex- 
cused by the Committee at 5 o'clock, 
he going to his home. 

Recessed at 6 p. m. until 8 p. m. 

Night Session. 

The night session was devoted to 
the examination of C. C. Johns and 
Chas. Zaby. 

Adjourned at 9:30, with the un- 
derstanding that the Committee 
would visit the Goree farm and 
Wynne on the next day, Sunday. 



SUNDAY, MAY 4, 1913, AT HUNTS- 
VILLE. 

The entire day was spent by the 
Committee in going over the Goree 
and Wynne farms, and gathering 
such data as they thought necessary. 



MONDAY, MAY 5, AT RUSK, 
TEXAS. 

The Committee arrived at the 
Rusk penitentiary at 11 o'clock, 
having inspected the Texas State 
Railroad en route from Palestine to 
Rusk. The remainder of the day 
was spent by the Committee inspect- 
ing the Rusk penitentiary and ore 
fields. 

The Committee adjourned to meet 
at the Rusk penitentiary at 8:30 to- 
morrow morning. 



TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK, 
TEXAS. 

Morning Session. 

The Committee met at the Rusk 
I prison at 8:30 o'clock, and the fol- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



lowing persons were examined: J. 
A. Stubblefield, Superintendent of 
the State Railroad, J. B. Long, Sam 
J. Smith, J. A. Palmer. 

Recessed at 12 until 2 o'clock. 

Afternoon Session. 

The Committee spent the after- 
noon in the examination of J. M. 
Moore, J. A. Palmer, J. W. Cram- 
mer, W. H. Lewis and P. E. Jones. 

The Committee charged the sec- 
retary to take care of all papers left 
in his care until such time as they 
met again. 

Motion made, duly seconded and 
carried that the Committee adjourn 
until the 19th day of May, 1913, at 
which time they would again meet 
at the Bender Hotel at Houston. 



Afternoon Session. 

The Committee met at 2:30 and 
continued the interrogation of Mr. 
Thomas, Mr. W. G. Wing, H. L. Pe- 
terson and H. L. Trammell was also 
examined by the Committee. After 
the examination of the above gentle- 
men, there was a little discussion 
as to the future procedure of the 
Committee, and it was agreed that 
they would leave the next morning 
at 8 o'clock and visit all the State 
farms, and not return to Houston 
until their work was finished on the 
farms. 

The committee adjourned at 6:30. 



MONDAY, MAY, 19, 1913, AT 
HOUSTON, TEXAS. 

Morning Session. 

Pursuant to adjournment the Com- 
mittee met at Houston, May 19, 
1913, at the Bender Hotel, with the 
exception of Robert L. Warren, he 
being absent on account of illness 
in his family, and being excused by 
the Committee. There was some dis- 
cussion as to the procedure of the 
Committee in their investigation; 
and agreed to stay in Houston an 
indefinite time and interrogate such 
persons as they saw fit to have ap- 
pear before the Committee. The 
rest of the morning was spent in 
interrogating Mr. T. W. House. 

Recessed at 12:30 until 2:30 p. m. 

Afternoon Session. 

The entire afternoon was devoted 
by the Committee to interrogating 
Mr. W. T. Eldridge of Sugar Land, 
Texas. 

Adjourned until 9 tomorrow. 



TUESDAY, MAY 20, 1913, AT 
HOUSTON, TEXAS. 

Morning Session. 

The Committee met at 9 o'clock, 
and spent the morning questioning 
Judge W. H. Gill of Houston, Texas, 
and J. B. Thomas, a former assist- 
ant manager on the Clements farm. 

Recessed at 12:30 with Mr. 
Thomas still on the stand. 



WEDNESDAY, MAY 21, 1913. 

Morning. 

The committee left Houston at 9 

o'clock a. m. and went to Sugar Land 

by automobile, at which place the 

Committee was joined by Mr. W. T. 

Eldridge, and thence via the Sugar 

! Land Railroad, now operated by Mr. 

i Eldridge, to the Ramsey farm, where 

J Mr. Eldridge, in substance, made the 

following statement: 

"This is what is known as the Ram- 
; sey place, about which there are many 
statements made. Some say it is bad 
j property for the State, and some say 
| it is a good proposition, but I want to 
make this statement: 'This property, 
so far as acreage is concerned, re- 
I gardless of all improvements, is the 
I most valuable stuff the State owns, 
according to my judgment. They have 
advantages here that have never been 
taken advantage of, and of which is 
untold wealth. This little piece of 
railroad here, seven and three-tenths 
miles long, was what I bought from 
the State for $32,500.00. We have 
then built the other properties down 
to this connection at the north end of 
the Ramsey farm. I immediately aft- 
er buying this property extended it 
to the north side of the farm and put 
a side track in, and I never purchased 
it from the standpoint of the value 
of the railroad, but purchased it be- 
lieving I would get a valuable crop 
for which I contracted with the State 
for five years, and as soon as these 
gentlemen (indicating Brahan and 
Tittle) came into office they canceled 
the contract. Now I want to make 
this assertion: they have never re- 
ceived the contract price for the cane 
under their manner of handling, and 



48 



Keport and Findings of 



I am still willing to make this asser- 
tion, that if they undertake to grind 
it this fall they will not receive the 
contract price for it. This is the rail- 
road you have heard so much talk 
about, and the statement has been 
made about being hampered in the 
movements of products off this farm. 
I will say the State has never lost 
a penny by the moving of the prod- 
ucts off this farm by Eldridge, or by 
I. H. Kempner, or any of his asso- 
ciates. If they could force me to op- 
erate this road it will cost them forty 
cents more per ton than it would to 
ship it back by the House plantation 
to the Clements farm; that is, it will 
cost them forty cents more if they 
force me to operate under my con- 
tract. Now if this road was com- 
pleted, and under the jurisdiction of 
the Railroad Commission, then it can 
be shipped there for less money, and 
the Commissioners, have brought up- 
on me every pressure to put the rail- 
road under the jurisdiction of the 
Railroad Commission. Now shipments 
have got to originate on the Sugar 
Land Railroad, and under that right, 
I take it I have the right to charge 
as if it was a chartered road. Now, 
in regard to taking it over the other 
line, I will say it will cost them forty 
cents more than at the present time. 
We would run our trains in connec- 
tion with the I. & G. N. at Areola, 
and — 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 
Q. — I would like to know — 
A. — Just a minute more. Now I 
will make this statement: "If they 
really want a railroad, and will fur- 
nish the labor for necessary repair 
work — they have got more labor than 
anything else — I will put this railroad 
under the jurisdiction of the Railroad 
Commission, and furnish the material 
and build it to Anchor if they are in 
earnest. 

Q. — You to continue the repairs of 
the road? 

A. — I would take out the reverse 
curves if I put it under the jurisdic- 
tion of the Railroad Commission. 
By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
Q. — How much would that labor 
cost? 

A. — I have not figured on that. The 
gentleman in charge could do that 
better than I could. Now I will re- 
duce my proposition in writing to see 
if they are really in earnest. That 
will give them a railroad (cheaper 
than they can construct it, and I 



will operate it cheaper than they can 
operate it. 

Q. — This railroad from here to 
Angleton, was that part of the rail- 
road you purchased from the State? 

A. — Yes, sir; and operated it every 
time I was called on to do so until the 
northern connection was made. 

Q. — You have a sugar mill at the 
nirthern end of this line? 

A. — Yes, sir; and I believe the gen- 
tleman will say the service on my 
road was better than the Southern Pa- 
cific last year. 

Q. — This road was operated from 
here to Anchor? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In what way would that benfit 
the State and you? 

A. — There would be very little ben- 
fit to us unless we could form a con- 
nection with the M. K. & T. and build 
to the 1 " 1 " railroad. 

Q. — If this road was built to An- 
chor, could the State send their cane 
to the mill at a reasonable expense? 

A. — Yes, sir; and if they intend to 
grind the cane at the Clements Farm, 
the saving they can make — if I put 
this track under the jurisdiction of 
the Railroad Commission (and give 
them the benefit of the short line — 
they can well afford it. 

Q. — As a business proposition, you 
take the position you can't afford to 
extend the line to Anchor? 

A. — I would get more money the 
other way than I would to haul it this 
way. Now why should I go to this 
expense, and do this work at my own 
expense? 

Q. — Why are you asking the State 
to contribute its labor which amounts 
to several thousand dollars per mile? 
Is it because as a business proposition 
you can't affort it? 

A. — I would lose money on it. 

Q. — And the simple hauling of the 
cane would not justify the expense? 

A. — The haul of the cane is abso- 
lutely lost to say nothing in the in- 
vestment in the railroad. 

Q— Can you state if it will save 
more money by donating more labor 
than it could make by shipping it in 
a round about way? 

A. — I make the assertion that they 
can do it, and make money on the first 
years' crop, to say nothing in the fu- 
ture. 

Q. — The increase in rate would 
more than offset the value of the 
labor? 

A. — Yes, sir; ,on the first year's 
crop. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



49 



Q. — You say to the people of Texas 
that if they will contribute so much 
labor you will extend your lines? 

A. — We have the rails here to cov- 
er every inch of line they have that 
we may make connection with the M. 
K. & T.. and we will extend it to 
their railroad. 

Q. — Now statements have been 
made that you have forced this farm 
to sell its products to the Imperial 
Sugar Company at a loss? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now when they want this cane 
hauled from this farm to the House 
Mill is your road available? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now. Senator, at any 
reasonable time, they have never 
asked for equipment vthat has not 
been given them, and I believe the 
Commission will bear me out in this 
statement. 

By Mr. Brahan : 

Q. — I don't think the contract in 
our office will bear out your state- 
ment in regard to it being a five- 
year contract. The only record I 
know of is a three-year contract. 

A. — The only contract. I think, is 
five years, and you could not cancel 
it inside of two years. 

Q. — I think it is three years. 

A. — It is five years. 

Mr. Tittle states: It says five 
years. 

By Mr. Tittle: 

Q. — Did you say you would file 
statement, and the amount of labor 
it would require, and estimate the 
number of hands for a certain num- 
ber of days? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Senator Willacy: 

Q. — Are you going to have an en- 
gineer estimate that? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — How would you divert that 
traffic? 

A. — Santa Fe and Southern Pacific. 

Lieutenant Governor Mayes inter- 
rogates Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — How many acres in cultivation 
this year on this farm? 

A. — About six thousand. 

Q. — How many acres is leased land? 

A. — About three thousand acres. 

Q. — How much did you put in culti- 
vation since you came in charge? 

A. — I think we have put in here — I 
think we could put in if we had the 
rails, 2800 to 3000 acres. 



Q. — Is this the land put in here? 

A. — Yes, sir. (Indicates) and this 
(indicates) I think was put in when 
we took charge. , 

Q. — What are you doing with the 
timber? 

A. — We are sawing it at the saw 
mill, and some of it we are shipping 
to Huntsville for wood, and some we 
are using here for wood. 

Q. — Are you selling any of the 
wood? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you burn or destroy any of 
the wood which came off the land 
you cleared? 

A. — Yes, sir; we destroj^ed more 
or less wood. It is a mighty hard 
matter to clear land and not destroy 
a good deal of the wood. 

Q. — How do they get those stumps 
out afterwards? 

A. — Some rot out, and some of 
the live oak stumps have to be blown 
out or dug out. 

Q. — Well, the four or five hundred 
acres still in timber, is it as good 
land as this in cultivation? 

A. — I think the creek land is prob- 
ably a little better, and the river 
land I think is just as good as the 
creek land, and every camp on this 
place has a flowing artesian well on 
it. 



From the Ramsey Farm the Com- 
mittee returned to Sugarland, at 
which place Mr. Eldridge had sum- 
moned all the people on his prop- 
erties to meet the Committee, and in 
substance, he made the following ad- 
dress to the Committee and audience: 

"I want to make this statement. 
I have sent to these people, both 
white and black, to be here, so you 
can see the character and the class 
of people on this place, and had it 
not been for these people the peni- 
tentiary system of Texas would have 
destroyed this enterprise here. They 
left me in January, 1912, without 
a semblance of a tenant on this 
eighty-six hundred acres of land, and 
they vacated this land, and rented in- 
ferior to what I was offering them, 
and it was through my ability to pull 
this through. However, I had the 
backing of I. H. Kempner & Sons of 
Galveston, or otherwise I would have 
been financially ruined, and the peni- 
tentiary system repudiated every 
contract made in good faith with 
them, and they lost money by every 



50 



Report and Findings of 



contract they repudiated to punish 
W. T. Eldridge. Now gentlemen, the 
audience here is the labor I have 
assembled in this, community. I ask 
you to inspect them for yourselves." 



Lieutenant Governor Mayes made 
the following address, in substance: 

"It is not my purpose to make a 
talk to you today, and even if I had 
intended to, I would not speak while 
so many of you are standing in the 
rain. As stated by Mr. Jake Wol- 
ters we are here representing the 
State in the investigation of the pen- 
itentiary system and are trying to 
place it on a better fkiancial stand- 
ing than it has been in the past. 
We are here to study conditions in 
order to determine what is best to 
be done. We are glad so many of 
you are assembled here today, and 
are glad you bring with you evidence 
of prosperity, and hope you may con- 
tinue to do as well in the future as 
in the past under the directions of 
Mr. Eldridge. We appreciate the 
fact you are so loyal to him, and that 
while being loyal to him, you can 
serve your own interests favorably. 
It is a pleasure to be here to see you 
and to study your facilities and con- 
ditions with the idea of helping the 
State of Texas. 

Afternoon. 

Directly after dinner conveyance 
was procured for the Committee by 
Mr. Eldridge and the members were 
taken to the former prison building 
on his land, and on arrival, Mr. El- 
dridge made the following state- 
ment: 

"In 1909, the Investigating Com- 
mittee investigated the penitentiary 
affairs of the State of Texas — there 
were three convict buildings on this 
place that were absolutely not fit 
for a human being to occupy. I did 
not have any interest in the land at 
that time at all. The Investigating 
Committee condemned the building 
and the parties who owned the land 
saw they would have to make some 
very expensive improvements, and 
they offered the land for sale. I got 
Mr. Kempner of Galveston to join 
in the purchase of it, and we got it 
very cheap. I spent around $30,000 
on this building. I put in a good 
hospital, with a bathing pool in it, 
where they had both hot and cold 
water. I screened all the dining 



rooms with copper wire. I built as 
modern a dining room as there is in 
the system today. I put in a brick 
oven, and I went to a total expense 
of $30,000, approximately. Mt. Ca- 
bell, Chairman, accepted a lease on 
a partial amount of the land Octo- 
ber 21, 1911, and on December 16th 
the Prison Commissioners advised us 
they would not exercise the lease 
they had made; that conditions had 
changed, and they would not take 
the property. On the 16th of Jan- 
uary they vacated the property, and 
no free negro ever left a place in 
the dead hours of the night in such 
a dilapidated condition. The build- 
ings were filthy. The lots were in 
bad shape. The bridges had fallen 
in and rotted. They moved off with 
two hundred and some odd men on 
that date and left us without a ten- 
ant and eighty-six hundred acres of 
land. In 1911 I offered to make a 
trade with the Prison Commission 
that I would rent them this place 
with 2000 acres of cane stubble on 
it, and let them satisfy the cane 
acreage they had defaulted and let 
them make it good off this place, and 
I offered them the land at $7.00 per 
acre planted in cane, and they turned 
it down. That is the condition they 
left us in." 

By Senator John G. Williacy: 

Question. — You offered it at $7.00 
per acre with the two thousand acres 
of cane on the land. W>as that the 
naked land without tools? 

Answer. — Yes sir. 

Q. — What did you do with that 
yourself? 

A. — Why, I got these people here 
and I rented it out to them. I re- 
habited it with free labor. 

Q. — What was the result of that? 

A. — We made $43,000 last year 
over and above rental expenses. I 
made it pay. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — Did you plow up any of the 
cane stubble? 

A. — I did this year. Last year I 
did not. 

The Committee at this time began 
looking over the prison building and 
inspecting it, and when the kitch- 
en was reached Mr. Eldridge made 
the following statement: 

"This was filthier than a hog pen 
the* morning after they left. Just 
before they vacated they tried to 
smoke up everything they could in 
the place. This was a decent place 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



51 



just a few months before they va- 
cated the building." 

After the inspection of the prison 
building the Committee returned to 
Sugarland, boarding a train on the 
Sugarland Railroad for Harlem 
Farm, and en route Mr. Eldridge 
made the following statements: 

That we were going over a track 
belonging to the State; that he had 
sold them the steel and for which 
they still owed; that they repudiated 
him in court saying he could not set 
up any claims against them; that 
here (indicating) is where they have 
a railroad to the Southern Pacific, 
three miles from Harlem; that this 
road was not in operation until af- 
ter his road was built in here; that 
they induced him to put this piece 
of track in from Sugarland under 
the jurisdiction of the Railroad Com- 
mission on condition the penitentiary 
system would patronize him and give 
the Sugarland Railroad the freight; 
that shortly after they got him to 
put this road under the jurisdiction 
of the Railroad Commission they re- 
built the track and leased an engine 
in order to keep him from receiving 
the small portion of through freight; 
that he was compelled to operate to 
this place every day except Sundays, 
and that the gross revenue since 
February 1st was $35. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — W;hat does it cost the State 
for them to operate this three miles 
of railroad? 

A. — I don't think less than $20 
per day; keeping up the track, etc., 
barring no accidents. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — They are not required to op- 
erate that road every day? 

A. — No, sir. Now our revenue on 
passenger service since the first of 
February has been a little over $1. 
There has been two passengers orig- 
inating from this place through to 
Otey. We have a letter from the 
Railroad Commission asking that a 
coach be provided for an occasional 
passenger. We will have to put it 
on. I feel sure if I could have the 
pleasure of having the three Rail- 
road Commissioners go over the road 
with me as you gentlemen have to- 
day, and let me show them the reve- 
nue, they would not expect us to put 
a passenger coach on. I will not 
fight it, but will have them tell us 
what we have to do, and I will obey 
the law. Now right after we put 
this track under the jurisdiction of 



the Railroad Commission they hauled 
a little cane one fall. Last year they 
did not move a ton over it. 



When about four hundred yards 
from the office of the Harlem Farm, 
Mr. Eldridge called attention to a 
bridge over which his train is sup- 
posed to run; that it was in bad 
shape and that he was afraid to run 
his train over it; that the Railroad 
Commission ought to condemn the 
railroad system for running heavy 
engines and cars over a bridge like 
that. The Committee inspected the 
bridge, and walked the remaining 
distance to Harlem farm office. The 
rest of the afternoon was spent by 
the Committee in inspecting Camp 
No. 1. 



THURSDAY, MAY 2 2, 1913, AT 
HARLEM STATE FARM. 

Morning. 

The Committee met at 9:30 a. m., 
at the office of the Harlem State 
Farm and the entire morning spent 
in questioning Captain T. C. Blake- 
ly, Manager of the Harlem State 
Farm. 

Recessed at 12:30. 

Afternoon. 

After supper, a committee from 
Richmond called upon the Peniten- 
tiary Investigating Committee, stat- 
ing they would like to hold an open 
conference in regard to the peni- 
tentiary system of Texas, at which 
time Lieutenant Governor Mayes 
made the following address: 

"Gentlemen: You know the last 
Legislature appointed the Commit- 
tee which is here present tonight, 
with the exception of Senator War- 
ren, who is unavoidably away, to in- 
vestigate the penitentiary conditions; 
to ascertain why it is the peniten- 
tiary system under our present law 
has been losing money instead of 
making money, and to see what the 
defects, if any, are in the practical 
operation of the law, and to suggest 
to the Governor at the next Legisla- 
ture some remedy for correcting the 
defects that exist in the law inci- 
dent to the operating of the system. 

"We have been out now some two 
or three weeks studying carefully the 
conditions, and trying to ascertain 
carefully the remedy for that trouble, 



52 



Report and Findings of 



and we have invited you here as 
citizens of this county, and who have 
perhaps studied this matter more 
closely than we have, in order that 
we may get your counsel and sug- 
gestions. We are trying to go over 
everything now so as to learn more 
about penitentiary matters. We are 
sure, you, as citizens of this county, 
will be able to help us, and we realize 
we have a great undertaking; a prop- 
osition that can not be quickly dis- 
posed of or easily handled, and think 
every member realizes his own in- 
efficiency and recognizes the fact that 
if we come to any conclusion, we 
must do it through the counsel of 
those who are as much interested in 
the State as we are, and to this 
end we invited this committee here 
tonight. 

"We are not conducting any formal 
investigation, and we are not taking 
any evidence. It is merely a consul- 
tation rather than an investigation, 
and it is in that way we would like 
to have you talk to us tonight. 

"I would be glad to hear, from any 
of you." 

By D. R. Pierson: 

"We are a committee of citizens 
from Richmond, and we are glad of 
the opportunity to come before this 
committee, and are glad of the oppor- 
tunity to meet each of you personally, 
we realize and understand that the 
convict question, as a whole, is a 
very large, complicated and complex 
situation. We are brought to the 
full realization of that from the fact 
we are brought in contact with the 
several phases of the situation our- 
selves, and it is along that line I 
would like to make a statement to 
you, gentlemen, tonight first, that is, 
the relation between the convict sys- 
tem and the citizens of Port Bend 
county. As you know, we are a 
small county here. I believe the 
acreage rendered of land in our 
county is something over five hundred 
and sixty odd thousand acres. The 
State rendered for taxes about 884 6 
acres, or about 15 per cent of the 
total acreage of this county, and I 
want to call you gentlemen's atten- 
tion to that fact, and to ask you to 
consider in your investigation of this 
matter how the convict question 
affects and relates to the citizens of 
this county, inow this vast body of 
land, eighty-eight hundred acres, the 
best Brazos Valley land we have, is 
taken from the actual settler, and as 



far as the good derived from the land 
is concerned, it is the same as if the 
land was not here. 

Now, our county has for a number 
of years made efforts in certain direc- 
tions to prevent a further encroach- 
ment upon our territory by the peni- 
tentiary system. We would much 
rather see, and much rather have all 
this fertile land open to actual set- 
tlers; to have it occupied by citizens 
of the county; by people whom we 
can call citizens, and who are citizens. 

Now, another feature is the con- 
victs who are brought here and kept 
here are largely negroes, and hereto- 
fore they have been turned loose 
here, and increased very largely our 
criminal class. Our county court 
and district court dockets will show 
a large per cent of these ex-convicts 
as being defendants, but the last 
Legislature, I believe, passed a law, 
giving a convict his railroad fare to 
take him to some other part of the 
State, but if I understand it correct- 
ly, the effect of that law has been to 
enable the convict to draw his rail- 
road fare to El Paso or to some other 
distant part of the State. Now, if 
that law is amended and changed so 
as to have him sent back to the 
county where he was convicted and 
then turned loose, that would be a 
relief to us. In many cases the sys- 
tem works a detriment to this coun- 
ty, and for the system to be ex- 
tended in this county and the State 
Penitentiary to purchase more lands, 
and take away more lands, it is a 
hardship and disadvantage to us. 

Now from the standpoint of the 
advisability of the penitentiary en- 
gaging in the sugar business in this 
county, I have gathered some data 
along that line that will show a 
practical test of the matter, and to 
use an old expression, 'tne proof of 
ihe pudding is the eating thereof." 
I have gone to the mortgage records 
of this county since 1897 and have 
examined and found out in a hur- 
ried manner, what mortgages have 
been created in this county since 
1897. I took the lands that com- 
posed the place, situated 

south of the Harlem farm, and the 
• land in the Ridick place; the Ellis 
place, which composes the Imperial 
farm; the Sugar Land property; the 
property composing the Deu planta- 
tion, and the property composing the 
Trammel. My examination of the 
records was necessarily hurried, but 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



53 



I believe I ascertained to a fair de- 
gree of certainty the amount of in- 
debtedness since '8 6, and find it to 
be $1,600,000 on these places: I 
also made some investigation as to 
the history, or financial history, of 
.these various places since that time. 

.arting with the D. T.. place, I take 
pleasure in stating that place has 
paid out, and is actually clear of 
any indebtedness. The Ridick place 
is the next place. When Mr. Ridick 
died, this property was indebted 
something over $40,000, as shown by 
the records. Now part of this place 
was sold out under execution to one 
party and part to the State. The 
Ellis place comes next. When Mr. 
C. G. Ellis died, that place was in- 
debted to the amount of about $160,- 
000 and was in the hands of a re- 
ceiver at the time of his death, and 
you know what that property has 
been since it was bought by the 
State. The Cunningham property, as 
you gentleman doubtless know, has 
recently passed through the hands or 
a receiver. That was five or six 
years ago, and the Trammel place 
was sold under deed of trust. The 
Deu place has not been sold under 
deed of trust. I forgot to mention 
the House place on the Areola plan- 
tation. It is a matter of court history 
that that place has gone trough bank- 
ruptcy proceedings and sold out. 

Now you can see by testing the 
sugar cane business by actual results 
the entire sugar cane belt of this 
county has been sold out with the 
exception of the first quoted place, 
and the question arises: If it is a 
paying business, why should these 
matters occur. Now, if we go back 
in ancient history and take the 
sugar plants on the Brazos. (Mr. 
Pierson named about ten), some of 
which acquired by the State and 
operated by the State now, and I 
believe every one of these places with- 
out exception have been sold out, 
.and in the face of that it would seem 
that the sugar business is not a busi- 
ness that should be engaged in in 
this county. Now, the labor conditions 
on those farms was under the con- 
vict system of $15 to $20 per month, 
and if under these conditions trey 
could not prove a success it is not 
reasonable to suppose they can now. 
Now, as to general conditions, will 
say these lands are situated in the 
valley of the Brazos. Will call to 
your mind the overflow of 19 u9, and 

the disastrous storm of 1900, and 



as has been suggested in the public 
prints, 60,000 acres is necessary to 
support this system, and if concen- 
trated and put here, would ask you 
gentlemen to consider whether it 
would be advisable to place all this 
property here where it might all be 
destroyed by one single flood. Now, 
the flood of '89, if I am correctly in- 
formed, this whole valley was flooded, 
and if all this property of the State 
was here, and if one of these floods 
should come, the system would be in 
a great deal worse condition than it 
is now. In addition to that, you gen- 
tlemen, have considered what effect 
the change of tariff will have on the 
sugar question, and there are numer- 
ous other features that might be 
called to your attention at this time 
to show the extreme danger in in- 
vesting large quantities of the State's 
funds, or moneys, where it is subject 
to large overflows, and where the 
State would sustain large losses. 

Now, it may seem strange to you, 
gentlemen, that I publicly call atten- 
tion to the conditions here. I do it, 
considering you have invited us here 
to tell you what we know about con- 
ditions here. Now, it is very likely 
I will get myself in trouble with my 
neighbors before I get home tonight. 
Now, in reference to this county 
for cotton farming, will state, the 
boll weevil is with us. Before be 
made his appearance here, these lands 
produced on an average a bale o^ 
cotton to the acre. Since he has 
come, I believe one-third of a bale 
per acre is considered good and while 
we know and believe we have fertile 
lands here, as good as any lands in 
the State of Texas, yet these condi- 
tions are existing conditions, and I 
think should be called to your atten- 
tion, though it may seem a little 
selfish as a citizen on my part in 
mentioning these matters. You may 
think we are doing this to scare you 
off. We would be glad indeed if we 
could paint the conditions here so 
you would not believe the peniten- 
tiary system should be further in- 
creased in this county, but I stand 
on the facts, and the facts are what 
I have given you, and I don't believe 
anyone, unless he is an industrious 
real estate man, will gainsay the 
truth of my statements. 

Judge W r . O. Diffie interrogates 
Mr. Pierson: 
Q. — Since the boll weevil came. 



54 



Beport and Findings of 



what has been the effect on the prices 
of this valley land? 

A. — When the boll weevil first 
came, the value of the lands de- 
creased very much, but we have got- 
ten in a great deal of outside immi- 
gration and they have to a large 
extent run up the value of the land. 
By Senator John G. Willacy: 
Q. — Are you familiar with the 
values of lands in this immediate 
locality? 

A. — I can tell you the prices for 

which lands have been sold; yes, sir. 

Q. — Will you give the committee 

your idea as to the value of lands in 

this immediate county? 

A. — I know of a sale being made 
of the Braxos Valley land near Booth 
that is not as good as this immediate 
section at $44 per acre. 

Q. — Is it in timber or cultivation? 

A. — About half of each. The prai- 
rie lands sell from about $20.00 to as 
high as $60.00 or $75.00; depending 
on the location and cultivation. Now 
I know of a sale of Brazos bottom 
land very near Harlem farm at $55.00 
per acre. That was a very smail 
tract of land and probably two-thirds 
in cultivation. Now these are the 
prices for which the lands sold. The 
real or intrinsic value of the lands, 
I would not attempt to state. I have 
never thought the lands worth that 
much. I don't believe you can take 
those lands in every day life and 
make them produce, except probably 
by the actual settler; that is, make 
them produce a fair rate of interest 
on the money invested. 

Q. — Judge, we are all, as citizens 
of this State, interested directly in the 
purchase of lands, and if the lands 
are purchased, we are interested, of 
course, in the price. Now I want to 
ask you, if you do not object to ans- 
wering: do you know whether or not 
it has been the practice, or is now 
the practice, of those who own lands 
who are offering them for sale to ask 
more from the State than from other 
individuals? 

A. — I can only answer in a gen- 
eral way. I don't know now of any 
being offered, but in a general way. 
and based on hearsay, my impression 
is the price for lands to the State is 
higher than to individuals. 

Q. — Why is this done? 

A. — "Well, I don't know, unless they 
thought they could get it from the 
State, and not from the individuals. 
I do not know of any special instance. 



Q- — Do you know of anyone in this 
county who has ever made a success 
raising sugar cane? 

A. — I can't recall anyone who has 
made a success in raising sugar cane 
where the sugar cane was the only 
crop made. Now I understand Mr. 
Booth, at Booth, Texas, probably 10 
or 15 miles south of here, has made 
a success in a small way with the 
syrup mill. He only has a small 
plant; small acreage; and I under- 
stand he has been successful, and I 
understand perhaps on the Finn place, 
near Areola, that syrup mill is being 
operated at a success. These parties 
grow their cane and manufacture it 
into syrup. 

Q. — Have you been using convict la- 
bor? 

A. — The Finn plantation may have, 
but the Booth has not. 

Q. — The parties who have been en- 
gaged in raising sugar cane in this 
vicinty the last few years, have been 
largely dependent on the convict la- 
bor, have they not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — If they have not made a suc- 
cess with convict labor, could they 
possibly make a success using free 
labor? 

A. — Basing my opinion on the gen- 
eral information received from the 
various sugar planters, will say if 
they cannot do it with convict labor, 
they cannot do it with free labor. 

Q. — Under the present law, the 
amount of labor the convict has to do 
is limited to ten hours' work, and the 
time required to go to the field and 
return to the camp is included in the 
ten hours. Free labor, as a rule put 
in more time in the fields, do they 
not? 

A. — Yes, sir; so I understand. 

Q. — Are you familiar with cane 
growing? 

A. — No, sir; I have had no experi- 
ence. 

Q. — But you are prepared to say *n 
the history of the county, even with 
the protective tariff, it has not been a 
success? 

A. — No, sir; it has not been. 

Q. — Would you mind stating to the 
committee, do you know, or not know 
any tendency on the part of those who 
failed to make a success raising sugar 
cane, to dispose of their lands to the 
State? 

A. — Well, I think that the records 
of the county would indicate to one's 
mind that it was that way. Now you 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



55 



take those places I mentioned: the 
Ridick place and the Ellis place. 
They have gone into the hands of the 
State. I don't know of any other 
places, and I am not advised who are 
now trying to sell lands to the State. 

Q. — Independent of the question of 
how it would affect the County of 
Fort Bend, is it the current opinion 
among your people that running 
farms by the convict system, is a fi- 
nancial success or not? 

A. — Do you mean as run by the 
State or the individual? 

Q. — Yes, sir. 

A. — I think it is the impression it 
is a success financially. 

Q. — Are there any suggestions you 
would like to make as to the opera- 
tion of the State farms? 

A. — I have no suggestions. Some 
others here may have. 

Q. — As Lieutenant Governor Mayes 
stated to you, we are trying to solve 
this problem. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Since the operation of the pres- 
ent law, the penitentiary system has 
become involved in debt, and our 
problem is to find out the reason 
why it has run so much in debt, and 
if possible, after our investigation, to 
find some way under which the sys- 
tem could be run without getting be- 
hind all the time, but making a 
profit. We are after information, and 
would like to have any suggestion 
made to us from any standpoint from 
wherever it may come. 

A. — Now speaking my own senti- 
ments, I am not sufficiently informed 
as to the actual workings of the sys- 
tem to make any suggestions that 
would seem to me to be of any special 
benefit to the committee, but judging 
from what I hear about the matter, it 
seems to me one of the troubles is 
the convict is not made to furnish a 
sufficient amount of labor. 

Q. — You, as citizen, have observed 
more or less the operations of the 
farm under the new law. Would you 
conclude the system cannot be made 
to pay unless the convicts are com- 
pelled, or required, to perform a reas- 
onable day's work? 

A. — I think so. He ought to be 
made to perform as much as free la- 
bor is performing, and I would say 
if he does not do it, he should be pun- 
ished and made to do it. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — From your statement, I infer 
you regarH both cane growing and 



cotton growing in the Brazos bottom 
as risky business for the State? 

A. — Yes, sir; especially cane. 

Q. — You don't regard cotton grow- 
ing as particularly risky? 

A. — Only in reference to the lim- 
ited production. Now, if I am cor- 
rectly informed, the cotton crop 
amounts to about one-third bale per 
acre; that is, the average Brazos bot- 
tom production. 

Q. — Then what crop can be made 
profitable? 

A. — The potato crop has been suc- 
cessful. The cotton crop is the most 
certain crop we have; cotton and corn. 

Q. — If farming in the Brazos Valley 
is risky for the State, would it not 
be equally so for the individual? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have your individual farmers 
prospered in the Brazos Valley this 
year? 

A. — All except the cane growers. 

Q. — Now, we are looking at this 
matter from the standpoint of the 
State with all due consideration for 
Fort Bend County. Now if it is nec- 
essary in the opinion of this commit- 
tee to acquire more farm lands to 
handle a certain class of State prison- 
ers, would you as a citizen of the 
State recommend purchasing land . in 
some other part of the State than in 
this section? 

A. — I think I would. Now, of 
course, I would want to purchase 
somewhere else than where I was. 
Now if you will compare the cotton 
crop of some other part of the State 
with what it has been here. I think — 

Q. — If you as an individual, handled 
the State's property here, and it be- 
came necessary to acquire more lands, 
would you acquire it in this locality, 
or somewhere else? 

A. — Now, if I understand the con- 
dition in the other parts of the State 
clearly, where you are not troubled 
with boll weevil, I would go there. 

Q. — Individually, would you recom- 
mend the State disposing of its Brazos 
Valley property and acquiring proper- 
ties in other parts of the State? 

A. — Of course, that would depend 
on conditions, but I have had this 
idea: that the State sell this prop- 
erty here, and use the money in im- 
proving other sections of the State. 
The western part of the State, for in- 
stance; the school lands; and estab- 
lish a system of irrigation, and im- 
prove those lands to a high degree, 
and sell those lands out to actual set- 
tlers just like "you sold this out to 



56 



Report and Findings of 



settlers, and in this way it would not 
be a burden on the State, and at the 
same time would not be a burden to 
the citizen. 

Q. — You mean reclamation of lands 
similar to that adopted by the State 
of Louisiana, I think their swamp 
lands? 

A. — Yes, sir. I don't know wheth- 
er or not that plan would be feas- 
ible, but if it could be done it would 
certainly benefit the citizen consider- 
ably. 

Senator John G. Willacy inter- 
rogates Mr. W. T. Bertram: 

Q. — Do you live in Richmond? 

A. — Adjoining this place. 

Q. — How long have you lived there? 

A.— All my life. 

Q. — Have you been engaged in the 
cane business? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What has been your experi- 
ence? 

A. — Cane is profitable in a small 
season, but when you plant a crop 
of over sixty days' work, it is not 
profitable; that is, when you have a 
great body of cane, and you get a 
warning of a freeze and can't get 
the labor to protect you. 

Q. — That is the advantage of having 
convict labor? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How much cane are you grow- 
ing now? 

A. — None. 

Q. — Why did you quit growing 
cane? 

A. — I was handicapped by railroad 
facilities, and after convict leasing 
was abandoned, I would not try to 
handle it with free labor. It can't be 
done unless you have over sixty days 
to harvest the crop. 

Q. — To what extent have you en- 
gaged in the cultivation of cotton? 

A. — I have planted it all my life. 

Q. — How do you regard cotton? 

A. — It is a good crop under favor- 
able conditions. We have back-sets, 
overflows and boll weevil, etc. 

Q. — Have you made any money 
growing cotton? 

A. — I have made a living; not any 
money. 

Q. — You grow corn also? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And succeed with corn? 

A. — Yes. sir. We don't make what 
we did twenty years ago by half on 
cane. 

Q. — You have not practiced rotation 
very much? 



A. — Yes, sir; we crowd every acre 
we can into cultivation regardless of 
the land. 

Q. — And naturally, the crop de- 
creases? 

A. — Yes, sir; and our seasons have 
not been favorable to cane for sev- 
eral years. 

Q. — What do you think of farm- 
ing in this part of the State as with 
other parts of the State? 

A. — I have never done any farm- 
ing anywhere else I would not like 
to change to any other place I know 
of, but what we want you to know, 
we don't want to be burdened with 
the convicts. We are deprived of 
our taxes. 

Q. — But the State pays the coun- 
ty taxes? 

A. — Yes, sir; they pay on the 
land, but don't pay on the improve- 
ments. I think they ought to con- 
sider us in this county. We have 
stood our part and they should put 
it in some other part of the State 
and not mobilize in our county. 

Q. — You have been close by where 
you could study the convicts. Do 
you not think it impossible to han- 
dle a large per cent of the convicts 
except on the farms? 

A. — I have never had any deal- 
ings with them except as a farmer. 
I have been around them and han- 
dled them since '74. I had charge 
of and worked the first force ever 
brought into this county. Now.- I 
would like to say a little. I don't 
think the convicts will ever pay un- 
der the present way of handling them 
on account of insufficient hours of 
work, and I don't think the per diem 
encourages them. You will hear 
people say everywhere: "I would 
rather be a convict better than any- 
thing in the world." I have — 

Lieutenant Governor Mayes states: 
I am also chairman of the commit- 
tee that is considering the pardon 
matters, and from that standpoint, 
it looks like all they want is to get 
out of the penitentiary. 

A. — I don't think it will pay the 
State unless they get more work out 
of them. They are getting indolent, 
and they would just as soon cut up 
a stalk of cotton as a weed, and they 
know they have nothing to fear. 

Q. — And in your opinion, you can't 
handle — 

A. — They are a shiftless set, and 
you can't handle them only through 
fear. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



DV 



Q. — Are they afraid of the chains 
or dark cell? 

A. — They are afraid of the strap 
more than anything else in the 
world. I don't believe in being 
cruel to them. Now a negro is a good 
deal like a bad boy, and if you take 
a convict and give him a good gen- 
teel thrashing it straightens out the 
whole force. 

Q. — What do you think of the 
ten-hour law? 

A. — I think it is a farce. 

Q. — Would you succeed in work- 
ing labor at ten hours? 

A.— No, sir; I could not. 

Q. — Have you any other sugges- 
tions? 

A. — No, sir; I don't know of any. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — From your experience, Mr. 
Bertram, what are the possibilities 
in irrigating sugar cane? 

A. — I have had no experience. 

Q. — Has it been followed in thfs 
section? 

A. — Mr. BlakeTey irrigated a lit- 
tle piece that seemed to improve it 
wonderfully, but I don't believe as 
a general thing it would pay; for 
instance, if after you irrigate your 
place it should come a serious rain, 
then it would ruin your crop; 
that is, such rains as I have seen 
here. I would not consider it at 
all. I advised General Cunningham 
when he put in his irrigation outfit 
that I would not do it at all. Now 
along the creek banks I think it 
would pay, but after you get away 
from the creek banks and get the 
land wet, I think the crop would be 
ruined. 

Q. — What was the extent of Gen- 
eral Cunningham's experience? 

A. — He did not succeed with it. 
He abandoned the idea. He did not 
get the water on it. I was sick at 
that time and did not go on the 
place for two years. 

Q. — Is not dry weather one of the 
troubles with sugar cane? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — If you could remedy the dry 
weather problem, would it not be 
profitable? 

A. — Yes, sir; but it is a condition 
we are confronted with now instead 
of a theory, and we have got to find 
some way out. 

Q. — Now this experiment of Gen- 
eral Cunningham, wish we could get 
more information. 



A. — Now, it is just as I told you. 
He tried to irrigate this black, stiff 
land where he was away from drain- 
age, and when it came an actual 
rain, it was too much. 

Q. — It injures the cane for the 
water to stand on the ground? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Could that be remedied by a sys- 
tem of tiling or underground drain- 
age? 

A. — I don't know anything about 
underground drainage. I am in- 
clined to think the drain would stop 
up. My only experience is on a 
road just above me, and it did fine 
the first season, but after that I did 
not get any results from it. It filled 
up completely. It will wash clay 
into it and stop the tile up. 

Q. — Did you formerly work con- 
victs under the old lease system? 

A. — Since '7 4 to 1903. 

Q. — You did not have a contract 
with the State at the time the new 
law became effective? 

A. — Yes, sir; we worked convicts. 
The lease was given up. 

Q. — Voluntarily on your part? 

A. — It was cancelled. 

Q. — Did you ask that it be can- 
celled? 

A. — I certainly did. 

Q. — You desired to cancel it on 
account of the new law? 

A. — Yes, sir; on account of the 
new law. There was no money to 
be made on it. If I had kept them 
I would have been bankrupt, or in 
the same fix the State of Texas is 
in now. 

Q. — After the new law became ef- 
fective the prisoners under your 
contract were directed and controlled 
in their work by the State's em- 
ployes? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — They were just as humanely 
treated while leased to you as they 
were while on the State farms? 

A. — Yes, sir; I believe a little 
more so. I believe the penitentiary 
system was a little bit more slack 
than on the State farms. 

Mr. Davis states: They ought to 
be worked from sunup to sundown, 
just like free labor. 

Mr. Tillotson interrogates Judge 
Pierson: 

Q. — Does not the fact that a farm 
adjoins a convict farm make it more 
desirable? Does it not make it more 



58 



Report and Findings of 



desirable by reason of the fact it 
adjoins the State farm? 

A. — To the actual settler, I think 
it is the least desirable; but to a 
speculator, I think it is more de- 
sirable. I think it is the impres- 
sion of the lands may be bought by 
the State. 

Q. — Have you knowledge of any- 
one buying lands for the purpose of 
selling to the State? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — It is your conclusion, how- 
ever, that persons seeking homes do 
not seek lands adjoining. Would 
you be able to state approximately 
how much the expenses are to Fort 
Bend County on account of the 
criminal class by the fact of the 
penitentiary farms here? 

A. — In 1910 I made some inves- 
tigations along those lines, and made 
some calculations, but unfortunately 
I have mislaid them, but in general 
terms will say a large per cent of 
the criminals are ex-convicts, and 
among the negro class. 



At this time there was a general 
discussion among the members of 
the two committees, and it was 
brought out that the brick made in 
Fort Bend County was of a very poor 
grade; that the court house was 
built of them, and that it was fast 
decaying. Also that the convict la- 
bor was a detriment to the people 
of Fort Bend County as it demor 
alized free labor; that the convicts 
go out to the field long after sunup 
and return long before sundown, and 
Mr. Bertram stated: "I would 
rather be out of sight of the convict 
farms." It was also stated by Mr. 
Bertram that there was no compari- 
son in the treatment of the convicts 
and the treatment of the United 
States soldiers; that he had been 
around the soldiers' camps recently, 
and they were doing their own 
washing, cooking, etc., and the sur- 
roundings of the soldiers was not 
near so good as the convicts: 
that he thought the convicts were 
treated better than the United States 
soldiers. Another member of the 
committee from Richmond stated 
that before the new law went into 
effect they all liked to have con- 
victs work for them when released, 
but at this time they did not want 
them at all. 



The business of the two commit- 
tees having been attended to, Judge 
Pierson of Richmond, Texas, made 
the closing address to the Commit- 
tee investigating the penitentiary af- 
fairs, as follows: 

"We thank the Chairman and the 
balance of the Committee for your 
kind hearing, and feel sure you gen- 
tlemen will do all in your power for 
us under the circumstances, and feel 
sure that you will do everything you 
can to favor the citizens of Fort 
Bend County." 

Committee adjourned with the 
understanding they were to go to 
the Imperial State farm the next 
morning. 



FRIDAY, MAY 23, 1913, AT HAR- 
LEM STATE FARM AND IM- 
PERIAL STATE FARM 
AND HOUSTON, 
TEXAS. 

Morning. 

The Committee left the Harlem 
farm about 8:30 in automobiles en 
route to the Imperial State farm, 
and on arrival proceeded at once 
with the inspection of Camp No. 1, 
looking over closely the blacksmith 
shop, wood shop, gun shop, the new 
laundry which is under construc- 
tion, kitchen, prison buildings, and 
also noted the method now in use 
for cleaning clothes — beating the 
dirt out of them by use of paddles; 
also took particular notice of the 
steward's department, questioning 
the steward in an informal way as 
to how his supplies were received, 
handled, etc. After inspection of 
Camp No. 1, the Committee procured 
conveyances and visited and inspect- 
ed the general conditions of the 
other camps of the Imperial farm, 
which lasted until the noon hour. 

Afternoon. 

The afternoon was spent in inter- 
rogating Arthur Aldridge Stiles of 
the State Levee and Drainage Com- 
mission and A. K. Addison, manager 
of the Imperial State farm, and after 
such interrogation the party depart- 
ed for Houston, with the understand- 
ing that the next morning they would 
go to the House farm from Houston. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



59 



SATURDAY, MAY 24, 1913, AT 

HOUSE AND RAMSEY 

PLANTATIONS. 

Morning. 

The Committee left Houston about 
7:30 a. m. for the House planta- 
tion, and on arrival proceeded at 
once with the examination of K. F. 
Cunningham, manager, and Dr. T. 
H. Hall, chaplain. After the ex- 
amination of the two above men- 
tioned parties, the Committee spent 
the rest of the morning inspecting 
the different camps, and questioning 
the incorrigibles from Camp No. 2, 
and en route* from the House planta- 
tion to the Ramsey farm via the 
Sugar Land Railway, arriving at 
Ramsey farm at 12 m. 

Afternoon. 

The whole of the afternoon was 
spent by the Committee in inspect- 
ing the different camps at the Ram- 
sey farm, four of them; looking over 
the crops, and familiarizing them- 
selves with the general conditions of 
the farms. 

Night Session. 

The Committee met at 8:30 and 
examined Captain J. N. South, man- 
ager of the Ramsey farm. 



SUNDAY, MAY 25, 1913, AT RAM- 
SEY STATE FARM, TRAMMEL 
FARM, BRAZORIA AND 
FREEPORT, TEXAS. 

Morning. 

The Committee. a f te^ ^us^er-ting the 
prison buildings, hospital, laundry, 
live stock, dining room and kitchen, 
etc., at Camp No. 1, Ramsey farm, left 
at 9:30 a. m. in automobiles en 
route to the Trammell farm, arriving 
there during the noon hour. 

Afternoon. 

At 1:30 p. m. the Committee met 
and proceeded with the examination 
of Captain J. H. .Weems. assistant 
manager of the Trammell farm, and 
^sted until 2:30 p. m., at which time 
the Committee left the Trammell 
f 'rH 1-1 automobiles for Brazoria at 
which place the committee was met 
by Mr. Swenson, and from Brazoria 



was taken by boat to Freeport as 
Mr Swenson's guests, arriving at 
Freeport at 8 p. m. 



MONDAY MAY 2 6, 1913 AT FREE- 
PORT AND CLEMENS FARM. 

Morning. 

At S:S0 a. m. the Committee, &s 
Mr. Swenson's guests, boarded the 
yacht at Freeport and was taken to 
the mouth of the Brazos river and 
then back to Freeport, and from 
Freeport to the sulphur mines by 
automobile, and then returning to 
Freeport, and thence to the Clem- 
ens farm, arriving at the Clemens 
farm at 11:30, and on arrival the 
Committee immediately proceeded 
with the inspection of the prison 
buildings, etc., at Camp No. 1. 

Afternoon. 

The Committee met at 1:30 p. m. 
and proceeded with the examination 
of W. M. Brooks, former manager 
of the Clements farm, which lasted 
until 5:15 p. m., at which time the 
Committee procured conveyances 
and visited the four different camps 
of the Clemens farm and inspected 
the various crops. 

Night Session. 

The Committee met at 8:30 p. m. 
and examined the following persons: 
Fred B. Smith, master mechanic, 
and Captain E. B. Mills, manager of 
the Clemens State farm. 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
CLEMENS FARM. 

Morning Session. 

At 8:30 a. m. Tuesday, May 27, 
1913, the Committee went into ex- 
ecutive session. The Committee was 
called to order, and Chairman Mayes 
made the following statement: 

"This Committee will probablv ^ot 
be together again until we meet either 
to make up our final report or to 
decide whether we do any further 
work, and it may be possible that it 
will be best to have some work done 
by sub-committees by the time of 
our next meeting, and we also want 
to get a line on the charges at Bra- 
zoria made by Mr. Thomas." 



60 



Report and Findings of 



Senator John G. Willacy then 
made statement as follows: 

"I think the main work of our 
direct investigation of this planta- 
tion will be covered as well as we 
can cover it before noon, but the in- 
vestigation of Mr. Thomas' charges 
may take a little time. While I 
would like to be present, it is nearly 
absolutely necessary that I should 
go to Houston at 12 o'clock, and 1 
think the other three members 
should finish up the investigations. 
It will be entirely satisfactory to the 
entire Committee." 

With the unanimous consent of 
the Committee, the Chairman in- 
structed Senator Willacy and Mr. 
Tillotson to visit the Bassett Blake- 
ly farm and make such investiga- 
tions there or elsewhere, together 
or individually, as they may see 
proper to make during the Commit- 
tee vacation, and along this line Mr. 
R. B. Humphrey thinks it might be 
well to look into some papers in 
connection with the Imperial sugar 
mill and plantation litigation. Sen- 
ator Willacy made the statement 
this was one of the most important 
things to be considered. He further 
stated that he had talked this 
matter over with Mr. Humnhrev. 
and that they thought the State's 
Committee ought to know something 
about what the conduct of this suit 
and also as to what the State's rep- 
resentative had done. 

The Committee unanimously 
agreed that Mr. Humphrey be ap- 
pointed to make such an examination 
into the court records in connection 
with the Imperial State farm and 
sugar mill litigation as he may deem 
proper, and to make report of his 
findings to the committee in execu- 
tive session. 

It was moved and unanimously 
carried that when the Committee ad- 
journed it shall reconvene at the 
call of the Chairman, and that the 
Chairman be instructed to direct the 
work of the stenographer in such 
a way as in his ooinion ma 17 best ~ '■ 
pedite his work, employing addi- 
tional help, if in his opinion such 
may be necessary. 

At the close of the executive ses- 
sion, the Committee continued the 
examination of the different ones at 
the Clemens farm. Those examined 
in the forenoon were J. H. Stanley, 
Captain E. B. Mills, Sam Stiles, a 
negro convict; Al Woods, a negro 



convict; M. Huntington, H. H. Mat- 
thews, J. P. Frazier and J. A. 
Crews. 

Afternoon session. 

The Committee met at 1 o'clock, 
with the exception of Chairman 
Mayes, Senator Willacy and R. B. 
Humphreys, and the following par- 
ties were examined: Bill Hender- 
son, a negro convict; Sid Smith, B. 
Mason, A. E. Lee, George Moss and 
Hoe McCann, a white convict. The 
examination was conducted by Mr. 
L. Tillotson, and continued until 3 
o'clock, at which time the remain- 
ing members of the Committee went 
to Brazoria, and from there to Hous- 
ton. 



TUESDAY, JULY 1, 1913, AUSTIN, 
TEXAS. 

The Committee met on this day in 
the office of the Secretary of the 
State Senate and examined the fol- 
lowing witnesses: Colonel W. T. 
Eldridge, Commissioners of the Texas 
prison system, Ben E. Cabell, R. W. 
Brahan and Louis W. Tittle; also 
State Purchasing Agent Elliott, Mr. 
Miller, and Mr. Louis Davis. The 
committee then adjourned to meet 
Wednesday, July 3, 1913. 



WEDNESDAY, JULY 3, 1913, AUS- 
TIN, TEXAS. 

The Committee met on this day 
in the office of the Secretary of the 
State Senate and examined Hon. 
Robert Goodfellow, a witness before 
said committee. 



-HURSDAY, JULY 8, 1913, AUSTIN, 
TEXAS. 

The Committee met on this day in 
the office of the Secretary of the 
State Senate and examined Auditor 
John M. Moore, of the penitentiary 
system. The Committee then ad- 
journed to compile the data for their 
final report. 



TUESDAY, APRIL 30, 1913, AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Testimony of A. M. Barton. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — You were financial agent of 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



61 



the penitentiary system during what 
period? 

A. — November 1, 1909, to January 
20, 1911. 

Q. — So your term as financial 
agent ended January 20, 1911? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you also sell the products 
of the factories? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What was your system of sell- 
ing? 

A. — Just like any other manufactu- 
rers. 

Q. — Did you advertise in making 
your purchase just like other manu- 
facturers? 

A. — Yes, sir. Well, we did not 
advertise, but we had a fixed price. 

Q. — In letting contracts for pur- 
chases what system did you use? 

A. — All the groceries we purchased 
under a competitive system. We 
would submit our wants once a 
month to every grocery in the State 
who cared to sell us. 

Q. — What number usually bid? 

A. — Sometimes about fiifteen, and 
sometimes five or six. We also made 
contracts for coffee, bacon, and some 
other things for six months, and 
sometimes a year's contract. 

Q. — You had charge of the selling 
of the cane and cotton products too? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What was your system of sell- 
ing cotton products? 

A. — I have sold cotton at the gin 
just like other business men. I 
shipped most of the cotton, however, 
to Houston and Galveston. 

Q. — What system did you have of 
grading your cotton? 

A. — We took the grades the buyers 
in Houston made like every one else. 
Of course, we kept the grades on 
some farms in some instances. 

Q. — You are not in position to 
state what applies to the cash receipts 
from all sources from January 20, 
1911, to January 1, 1913, amounting 
to $1,520,220.03? 

A. — That represents cotton, corn, 
sugar and all manufactured products 
sold by the system. 

Q. — You don't know anything as 
to the present system of selling? 

A. — I think they follow about the 
same system that has always been 
followed. They contracted their 
sugar one year in New Orleans; part 
of it at a certain price, and the other 
consigned. 

Q. — You were financial agent when 
Mr. Eldridge became indebted to the 



system to the amount of $10,000, but 
were not financial agent when Mr. 
Eldridge's recent indebtedness occur- 
red? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — And you don't know anything 
officially as to the status of the 
amount Mr. Eldridge owes the prison 
system? 

A. — I know the amount, is all. 

Q. — You know the book amount? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In handling the products of 
the farms, especially the cane pro- 
ducts, what difficulties were incurred 
by not delivering to Mr. Eldridge dur- 
ing your term of office? 

A. — There was no difficulty in re- 
gard to delivering sugar to him. We 
had a sugar mill at tihe Harlem 
farm and one at the Clemens farm. 
The mill at the Harlem is rather 
small and old, and we could not mill 
it all at the Harlem. 

Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
the sugar mill at the Harlem farm 
to state whether or not it was a 
paying institution to the State? 

A. — I don t think they made any 
money. 

Q. — Do you think, as financial 
agent they made any money at all 
during the period you were in office? 

A. — We had a credit balance of 
actual cash at the end of the year. 

Q. — Allowing for the use of the 
convicts? 

A. — Yes, sir. Of course, 50 cents 
was charged for convicts making $16 
per month, and the balance on top 
of that. 

Q. — Mr. Barton, you speak of 
charging 50 cents per day for con- 
victs, how did you arrive at that? 

A. — -We figured the free labor cost 
$1 per day, and we figured the main- 
tenance of convicts was worth 5 
cents, and we based our charge on 
that. 

Q.— Did you charge up at Rusk, 
Huntsville, and every other place 
this amount for convicts where they 
worked? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did labor cost the same at 
all the State farms and all the insti- 
tutions and why should there not be 
a scale of labor? 

A. — We hired out convicts at $2 9 
for. white convicts and $31 per month 
for negroes, and we figured the main- 
tenance cost us $15 or $16. 



62 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Did you arrive at that by a 
system of computation? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How did you get at that? 

A. — These charges were made by 
the prison commissioners. I never 
had anything to do with making these 
charges. 

Q. — Was this an arbitrary charge 
or computed charge? 

A. — Yes, sir; it was an arbitrary 
charge. I never paade the charge of 
convict labor on the farms, and it 
was fixed by the State manager. 

Q. — In handling the cane products 
when you were financial agent was 
there any cane from any of the farms 
except the Imperial? 

A. — Yes, sir; we sold cane off the 
Ramsey State farm. 

Q. — Did you sell it at a stipulated 
price? 

A. — $3 per ton. 

Q. — -Was there any difference in 
the price received for the Ramsey 
cane and the Imperial cane? 

A. — Anywhere from 50 cents to $1 
more, but you understand the Ram- 
sey cane was a bitter cane and not 
nearly so high, and it probably would 
not have brought so much on purity. 

Q. — You sold cane on the Imperial 
farm under contract? 

A. — I delivered that under con- 
tract, and at that time it was all 
paid for except an item of $10,000. 
It represented some on the Imperial 
and some on the Ramsey. It was 
the last of the milling season, and 
Mr. Eldridge claimed it was in a 
badly frozen condition. 

Q. — Does that reduce the amount 
of saccharine? 

A. — Yes, sir; it reduces it some- 
times as low as 60 to 65. The basis 
fixed in the contract was 7 9 per cent. 

Q. — Did you construe that con- 
tract to mean they would have to 
take our cane where it fell below 79 
per cent? 

A. — I don't know, but they do take 
it under 79 per cent. If it comes 
under 7 9 per cent they pay less. 

Q. — Did the Imperial Sugar Mill 
have to take this cane if the test 
fell under 7 9 per cent? 

A. — Yes, sir; they had to do it 
under the contract. 

Q. — As well as the merchantable 
cane? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What difference would it have 
been to have taken it to the Harlem 
mill? 

A. — I don't know. 



Q. — There would have been a dif- 
ference in the cost of transporta- 
tion? 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — It could have been delivered 
to the Harlem Sugar Mill? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did anyone have control of 
the railroad, or transportation sys- 
tem, which would have prevented 
taking it to the Harlem or Ramsey 
farm? 

A. — They might have had some 
difficulty with Mr. Eldridge about 
it, but the Imperial farm is on the 
Southern Pacific and it could have 
been delivered there, and I think 
some of it was probably. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — I would like for Mr. Bar- 
ton to state, going into the records, 
his idea of the essential difference 
in operating share farms under the 
old law and the new law, and give 
his reasons conclusively. 

A. — So far as the State's control 
of the convicts there is no difference 
between the old and the new law. 
The only difference is under the new 
law they have leased land direct 
from the land owners, also the mules 
and implements, and they either pay 
him a share of the crop or money 
rent. Under the old law they usual- 
ly paid 60 and 40 per cent. 

Q. — Do you think the new law 
profitable or unprofitable? 

A. — We — under the new law the 
State farms have been unfavorable. 

Q. — State your reasons for it. 

A. — One cause is the maintenance 
charges and the increased force of 
men on all the farms have doubled, 
and if you take these statements here 
and cut out the item of 5 cents 
per day for convict labor there would 
not be much money under the old 
law. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — In your statement of January 
2 0, 1911, or the termination of your 
official capacity as financial agent, 
you say that they had cash on hand, 
$49,478.06. Can you tell us whether 
or not they had any outstanding 
debts? 

A. — About, $30,000 in open ac- 
count. 

Q. — And that was all the prison 
system owed at that time? 

A. — -Yes, sir. 

Q. — You spoke of maintenance; 
what items does that embrace? 

A. — Food, clothing, guard hire, 
and necessary camp expense. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



63 



Q. — Does that item vary for dif- 
ferent years? 

A. — On the share farms it never 
varies for everything that goes there 
is charged to maintenance. 

Q. — On the State farms it some- 
times varies, does it not? 

A. — I thing it sometimes does. 

Q. — What would you assume to 
be the reason? 

A. — I could not imagine. 

Q. — In some of these reports, the 
maintenance account, operating ac- 
count, crop expenses, and according 
to your answers yesterday, the same 
items may enter into each of these 
accounts and are interchangeable. 

A. — Well, on the share farms 
there should be no charge except for 
maintenance. 

Q. — Can you make a statement, 
Mr. Barton, as to the amount of per- 
manent improvements added to the 
system during your term? 

A. — I think I had that in my re- 
port too, Senator. 

Q. — Was any land purchased dur- 
ing the term of your office? 

A. — No land was purchased dur- 
ing the time I was financial agent. 
The Imperial farm and the Ramsey 
farm, and the 1000 acres adjoining 
the Harlem farm had been purchased 
before I became financial agent, and 
I finished paying for it. 

Q. — Did you make an inventory 
at the time you became financial 
agent? 

A. — Xo, sir. 

Q. — Have you included in your in- 
ventory the live stock in your re- 
port? 

A. — Yes, sir; it is shown in my re- 
port. The last report made, Sen- 
ator, shows live stock in a separate 
item, purchased during the last two 
years. 

Q. — I see in your comparative 
statement, inventories January 20, 
1911, live stock, $26,505. What 
was the value of the live stock at 
the time you surrendered your of- 
fice? 

A. — I could not tell without look- 
ing at the inventory. During the 
four years I bought about $75,000 
worth of live stock. 

Q. — During that period, what was 
the amount of the cultivated acre- 
age justifying that purchase? 

A. — The Ramsey and the Imperial 
farms. There are about 8 00 acres 
in the Ramsey farm and about 5000 
acres in the Imperial, and 1000 acres 
in another. 



Q. — During the four years our in- 
crease in live stock was $75,000? 

A. — I don't know whether that in- 
cludes the mules bought with these 
places or not. 

Q. — How many places did you buy 
mules, and where were they? 

A. — 15 mules on the Imperial 
farm. 

Q. — Is there a statement of the 
estimated value of these mules at 
which they were taken at that time? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — -Is it in your file? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — It did not appear in your com- 
parative statement, inventory Jan- 
uary 2 0, 1911, or December 30, 
1911? 

A. — Those mules were in the in- 
ventory. 

Q. — Now at the end of that same 
year the property inventory was 
$335,291.11, an increase of $82,- 
466.86, and the live stock has been 
increased in one year $18,585.33. 
How did you estimate the increased 
value of the farm itself? 

A. — That is arbitrary. There were 
improvements, etc. 

Q. — Who assisted you in making 
this inventory? 

A. — I did not make it. They are 
inventories I found in the office, and 
my reports are made from the books 
in the office. 

Q. — On whose advice did you in- 
crease the valuation of the Imperial 
farm $82,000 January 20, 1911, to 
December 31, 1911? 

A. — Whoever took the inventory. 

Q. — Was the inventory authorized 
by the Commission, December 31, 
1911? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know who made it? 

A. — Col. Demmock. 

Q. — Did he make the inventories 
of all the other properties, and you 
based your reports on his valuation? 

A. — Yes, sir. I took the reports 
after they were filed in this office. 

Q. — Mr. Stubblefield assisted in 
making the inventory, did he not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In the purchase of mules, I 
see in your report mules have been 
bought as high as $270, and I also 
see a number of them had been 
bought on the obligation of the Com- 
mission. In other words they were 
bought on credit. Will you state if 
the prices paid for these mules were 
reasonable? 

A. — Yes, sir: I think so. 



64 



Report and Findings of 



Senator Jno. G. Willacy interro- 
gates Mr. Cabell: 

Q. — You bought some mules, did 
you not, M3r. Cabell? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many mules have you 
bought during your term of office? 

A. — About $75,000 worth the last 
three years. 

Senator Willacy resumes interro- 
gation of Mr. Barton: 

Q. — How much was bought while 
you were in office? 

A. — After January 20, 1911, there 
was over $100,000 worth of mules 
purchased. 

Q. — After that time and prior to 
what time? 

A. — -January 1st or December 31, 
1912. 

Q. — Can you tell us what the in- 
crease in acreage was to justify the 
additional amount of increase in 
mules? 

A. — There was no increase in acre- 
age except land cleared. 

Q. — No increase in the farms op- 
erated by the State except the lands 
that were cleared? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Can you tell us about how 
much acreage that involved? 

A. — We cleared about 25 00 acres 
on the Ramsey and about 1400 on 
the Harlem farm. 

Q. — This acreage that was cleared 
by the State, how much was put in 
cultivation? 

A. — -Practically all the land. Now 
we have leased several small places 
that we have had to furnish mules 
for. 

Q. — What would the total acreage 
amount to? 

A. — We leased the Ramsey place 
amounting to 1400 acres and 68 
acres in pasture, and an adjoining 
tract of 480 acres . we furnished 
mules for; and then on the east side 
of the place, we have got 1,100 acres 
known as the Patterson place, and 
we leased from George Harlem 
about 165 acres. The contract 
will show, and on the Imperial 
we leased from Mrs. Fields, I 
think 305 acres that we had to fur- 
nish mules for and from Harlem 140 
acres, and from McLaughlin 15 7 
acres, and from Mrs. Whelton 335 
acres. On the Ramsey place we 
were cultivating 1200 acres of land 
we were furnishing mules for. We 
are also leasing the Baker place, 50 
acres, and a tract of land known as 
the Smith tract, 105 acres, and a 35 



acre tract belonging to a party named 
Rice at Galveston. 

Q, — You don't furnish any mules 
on the Shaw place? 

A. — No, sir. On the Clemens 
State farm we are leasing 312 acres 
of land we are furnishing mules for, 
and about 2 55 acres from Mr. Smith 
we are furnishing mules for. 

Q. — Was not that Smith land al- 
ready in cultivation? 

A. — It may have been. I am not 
certain. We cultivated this with our 
own mules. 

Q. — How many acres are we leas- 
ing from Mr. Shaw? 

A. — I think about 1800 or 2000 
acres. 

Q. — How much of it is in cultiva- 
tion? 

A. — All of it. 

Q. — In the negotiations for the 
purchase of the Imperial farm, was 
there no question raised as to the 
value of the mules, implements, etc., 
that went with the farm? 

A. — You probably have that con- 
fused with the Cunningham farm 
deal which did not go through. At 
that time I was not financial agent, 
however. 

Q. — Was there any sales of old, 
worn out mules held during your 
administration? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Where? 

A. — They come from the various 
farms. 

Q. — What proportion of the 
amount paid for them did they 
bring? 

A. — I could not say. 

Q. — Could you say one-half? 

A. — No, sir; I would not say one- 
half. 

Q. — Does the condition of the pur- 
chase state the amount allowed for 
the live stock on the farm? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think so. 

Q. — Does not even state the num- 
ber? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How much did you receive for 
those mules when they were sold? 

A. — Captain Herring can give you 
correct and accurate information on 
this point. He is here today. 

Q.— Was the number of animals in- 
cluded in these sales a matter of rec- 
ord? 

A. — Each farm will be credited with 
the number of mules sold. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



65 



Q. — In regard to the manufacturing 
industries, are you familiar with the 
operations at Rusk and Huntsville? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In your judgment has there 
been a single manufacturing plant at 
Rusk or Huntsville that has paid a 
legitimate profit? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many manufacturing 
plants in operation at Rusk today? 

A. — The box factory, is all I know. 

Q. — In two years, from 1900 to 
1902, I see a recapitulation of a tail- 
or shop, machine shop, tobacco shop, 
pipe foundry, and so on. Why were 
they discontinued? 

A. — On account of the loss. 

Q. — By whose instructions? 

A. — By the commission. 

Q. — Did you ascertain the reasons 
for the losses in each? 

A. — Well, no. I made the recom- 
mendation for discontinuing them to 
the Commission. 

Q. — Why did you retain those you 
did retain? 

A. — We figured we had the prop- 
erty at Rusk and had to keep a few 
men there to keep it intact. 

Q. — What was done with the ma- 
chinery and equipment when it was 
discontinued? 

A. — It was left in idleness. 

Q. — Were they ever disposed of? 

A. — No, sir; they are still there. 
Some of the machinery was moved 
down here, but I think it was before 
I went into office as financial agent. 

Q.— Have you read this statement 
regarding the disposition of furni- 
ture? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What do you think of the ad- 
visability of maintaining a prison at 
Rusk? 

A. — From a business standpoint, I 
should say the Rusk penitentiary 
ought to be abolished. 

Q. — From your study of the opera- 
tions there, has there ever been any 
feature of the Rusk prison that has 
paid a profit or been self-supporting? 

A. — No, sir; and so far as the re- 
port shows it has not as far back as 
it goes. 

Q. — Mr. Barton, do you know 
whether or not it was the custom in 
the accounting of ire penitentiary 
system prior to the appointment of 
the Commission in 1910 to credit la- 
bor with arbitrary wage per day? 

A. — I can't answer that question. 

Q. — Have you any statement to 
make regarding the Huntsville man- 



ufacturing enterprises so far as profit 
making is concerned? 

A. — It is about the same as at Rusk. 

Q. — As a matter of policy, and the 
result of your experience while con- 
nected with the system, do you be- 
lieve it advisable for the State to em- 
ploy any part of its convicts in the 
manufacturing enterprises? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you care to make any 
extended statement for the benefit of 
the Committee? 

A. — I think the State should main- 
tain a machine shop of sufficient ca- 
pacity to do their own work. I don't 
believe it is profitable to do custom 
work. I think they ought to main- 
tain a wagon shop, probably for cus- 
j torn, and their own use. I believe 
the wagon shop will come nearer mak- 
ing a profit than any other manu- 
facturing industry in the penitentiary, 
and I believe, of course, the State 
ought to manufacture its own clothes, 
shoes, and they ought to extend these 
factories for the benefit of the oth- 
er State institutions. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — You stated the losses at the 
farms were due to the new law fixing 
the hours if labor. 

A. — It is due to the fact they have 
two men now to maintain where un- 
der the old law they only had one 
man to maintain on the farms. 

Q. — Was it because the Commis- 
sioners were not able to control the 
hours of labor; was that one of the 
reasons they did not make a profit? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — That does not mean in the 
walls? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How do you account for the 
losses in the Rusk and Huntsville 
shop? Why do they lose instead, of 
make money? 

A. — I don't know. I know they lose 
money from the results obtained. 

Q.— What do you think accounts for 
the losses? 

A. — They have untrained men in 
the first place in these shops, and it 
is the character of labor. 

Q. — Anything else? 

A. — Probably the management. 

Q. — Anything else? 

A. — Equipment. 

Q. — Anything else? 

A. — Location of the industries and 
the transportation facilities. 

Q. — Have you made a sufficient com- 
parative study of the other peniten- 
tiaries of the country to know wheth- 



66 



Report and Findings op 



er or not their shop made money? 

A. — No, sir; I don't know. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Mr. Barton, in regard to the 
question of inventories in 1904, the 
total assets at Huntsville was $772,- 
907, including buildings, lands, offices, 
fixtures, library, power plants, live 
stock, inside industries, stores, dis- 
charge clothing, and prison supplies, 
have you followed the general system 
of accounting in estimating the as- 
sets at Huntsville through the dif- 
ferent years? 

A. — In a measure, they are about 
the same. 

Q. — Do you recall what the total 
assets were when you retired from 
office? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you recall what the total 
assets were at the Huntsville peni- 
tentiary? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — In all these reports, 1910, 1904, 
1906 and 1908, the same charge for 
labor is made at fifty cents per day. 
Do you know if in figuring the ac- 
counts at Rusk all those years that 
labor was accounted for on a basis of 
fifty cents per day? 

A. — I don't recall. Now to see what 
the net losses are on the different in- 
dustries, you can deduct the charge 
for labor and see what the money 
loss was. 

Q. — When was that charge made, 
and why was it made? Why did you 
charge the manufacturing enterprises 
fifty cents per day m years past and 
now charge them $1.10 per day? 

A. — The charge of $1.10 per day 
was authorized by the Prison Com- 
mission. It was charged on a basis 
of fifty cents per day prior to Jan- 
uary, 1911. 

. Mr. Tillotson interrogates Mr. Ca- 
bell: 

Q. — Mr. Cabell, what was the pro- 
rata of convicts to the guards on the 
farm as compared in the walls? 

A. — About ten men to the guard on 
the farms. 

Q. — What is your basis within the 
walls? 

A. — So many convicts to the shops 
and to the pickets. We have thirty- 
eight men guarding and six hundred 
men in the penitentiary. The pro 
rata is less within the walls than on 
the farms. If we can keep our men 
busy on the inside walls we dispense 
with the guards. We did reduce the 
number of guards in the factory prop- 
er. There were forty-four guards 



when we came here and five hundred 
and forty men, and no outside force, 
and since then we have had as low 
as thirty-two guards with that num- 
ber of men. 

Mr. Tillotson resumes interrogation 
of Mr. Barton: 

Q. — Mr. Barton, your last statement 
shows you are carrying as an asset of 
the penitentiary system the indebted- 
ness incurred by the railroad of $90,- 
000? 

A. — You understand the peniten- 
tiary system does all the purchasing 
for the railroad and pays the operat- 
ing expenses, and charges this to the 
railroad, and carries it as an asset 
to accounts payable. Now that repre- 
sents the loss of the railroad. 

Q. — Has it been the general under- 
standing of all the prison managers 
that the different manufacturing in- 
dustries at Rusk and at Huntsville 
have been unprofitable for the last 
twelve years? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — Why do you think they have 
been able to run along up to this time, 
or up to 1911, without appropriations? 

A. — It was on account of the profit 
made on the State and share farms 
and the money they received from 
the contract forces. 

Q. — Is it not a fact that all the rec- 
ords show, from your experience, that 
the losses in manufacturing had to be 
taken care of out of the lease sys- 
tem? 

A. — Yes, sir; and the State farms. 

Q. — The sale of labor brought in 
practically twice as much money as 
the share farms, did it not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And the important basis of 
income was due to the sale of con- 
vict labor? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And that alone is the reason 
the penitentiary (system Was able 
to keep out of debt? 

A. — Yes, sir; but during the last 
four years prior to' 1911, the re- 
ceipts from the contract forces had 
probably been reduced one-third, and 
the profits were coming more from 
the farms than ever before. 

Q. — What period does that cover? 

A. — 1907 to 1911, and I know 
during 1910 it had been materially 
decreased. 

By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 

Q. — You spoke of the question of 
maintenance. You said it included 
food and clothing of the prisoners. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



67 



What would be the average cost of 
maintenance per capita? 

A. — About $16. 

Q. — That would amount to about 
51 or 62 cents per day for mainte- 
nance cost? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, for the past twenty 
months the cost at Huntsville has 
been 60 cents per day and at Rusk 
66 cents per day. Why is this dif- 
ference? 

A. — I don't know unless it is the 
salary of the officials. 

Q. — Now, in answer to some of the 
questions you have stated practically 
all of the industries, which have 
heretofore been conducted by the 
prison system, have been losses. I 
will ask you if it is not a fact that 
the books show the tailor shop has 
been a money making institution? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, then, I want to ask you 
if in your opinion, for the benefit of 
the Committee, if it would not be 
better for the State of Texas to ex- 
tend its factory industries along 
these lines so as to furnish clothing 
for all the wards of the State and 
its various institutions? 

A. — I can't see that they can save 
a cent. In other words, they figure 
the cost of material of the goods 
they are going to make and the cost 
per day and charge out at an arbi- 
trary price. No money changes 
hands. 

Q. — Do you mean by that state- 
ment to the Committee that the es- 
timated charge they make on a pair 
of shoes is an arbitrary estimate? 

A. — I mean to say this; they fig- 
ure the labor and see what it costs. 

Q. — Do they charge up labor on 
the farms? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Why do they make this dif- 
ference? 

A. — I don't know. Now, about 
making shoes for the various State 
institutions, you ought to maintain 
some industry that will benefit the 
convicts, and you can make clothes, 
and do it at probably what you could 
buy them at in the open market, but 
when it comes to making a profit in 
the manufacturing of shoes and 
clothes, they have made nothing. 

Q. — About what does it cost to 
make a pair of shoes? 

A. — I don't know. I think about 
$1.65. 



Q. — And do you count in the cost 
of the convict's labor? 

A. — Yes, sir; $1.10 per day. 

Q. — What does it cost to make 
a pair of $2 shoes? 

A. — They have that estimate in 
the shop. I don't think, however, 
there has ever been a cost system of 
any value figured out. 

Q. — What is the cost of the en- 
ergy at Rusk? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — You don't know what the 
power cost? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Was any estimate made at 
any time you were in charge of the 
finances? 

A. — -No, sir. I say there has 
never been at any time a cost sys- 
tem figured out that would be of 
any value to anyone. It would not 
pay the State of Texas a profit to 
manufacture shoes and clothes for 
its other wards. I say they ought 
to do it regardless of whether it 
would pay them or not. 

Q. — In reference to the Rusk pen- 
itentiary during the year 1912, they 
lost $106,000 net in operations. That 
is a statement we have before us. 
Will you attempt to explain to the 
Committee the reason of this loss? 

A. — I can't explain it in detail. 

Q. — Can you give us your opinion? 
Some of them were closed, accord- 
ing to your testimony. 

A. — I can't explain it, only to 
say that on some of these industries 
they had no market for the prod- 
ucts and did not make anything they 
could sell. 

Q. — What per cent of able-bodied 
men were idle over at Rusk? 

A. — During the last three years 
there have only been from 60 to 
100 men there. 

Q. — What was the number of men 
in 1911 and what was the average 
number in 1912, approximately? 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — How many men were there in 
1912? 

A.— I think about 230 or 240. 

Q. — What do you think was about 
the average in 1911? 

A. — About 150 men. 

Bv Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Were you familiar with the 
pvstem reports made by the fore- 
men of the different shops as to the 
cost of items entering into the pro- 



68 



Report and Findings of 



duction of any piece of work — re- 
pair work or custom work? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever make any rec- 
ommendations as financial agent, or 
as auditor, as to the management of 
these different plants that would in- 
dicate conclusively the condition un- 
der which they were operated? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Were any of these recom- 
mendations put into effect? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is there any suggestion you 
would care to make to the commit- 
tee in regard to improvements of 
methods used? 

A. — No, sir; unless it is I would 
abandon the machine shop, except so 
far as doing the work for its own 
system. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — Mr. Barton, I believe you 
were connected with the penitentiary 
system as financial agent, and then 
part of the time as auditor. What 
other business experience prior to 
that time have you had? 

A. — I was secretary to the Gov- 
ernor just previous to the time I 
was financial agent; practiced law 
five years, and before that time was 
in the general mercantile business. 

Q. — You believe the inside indus- 
tries ought to be operated, even at 
a loss. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, as I understand it, they 
are operating at a loss because of 
the allowance made for convict la- 
bor. I notice each institution has an 
item charged to labor. One has a 
charge of $30,000 for convict labor. 
Now, if there was no charge made 
for convict labor, could you operate 
at a profit? 

A. — If you take out the item of 
convict labor you will increase the 
earnings. 

Q. — Now is it not a fact that in 
running these institutions if you fur- 
nish convict labor it will show a loss 
anyway? 

A. — Well, I don't know. 

Q. — Now, I notice the reports from 
1902, 1904, 1906 and 1908, and so 
on; I notice the farms have been 
very materially increased in value* 
Take the Clements farm in 1902 it 
was valued at $118,000 and at the 
present time it is valued at $659,- 



000. Can you give a reason for the 
increase in value of this farm? 

A. — The land has been cleared and 
ditches cut, and improvements made, 
and this will increase the value of 
the land accordingly, and there has 
been put on this property a sugar 
mill worth probably $250,000. 

Q. — What is there in the city of 
Huntsville to be worth $481,000? 

A. — Well, they have the cell 
buildings and the walls and the res- 
idences, and they have the wagon 
shop and blacksmith shop and all 
the buildings on the inside. 

Q. — Would you express any opin- 
ion as to your idea of the value of 
the property here? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think it is worth 
approximately $481,000. Some of 
these buildings were erected several 
years ago, and some of the buildings 
are nearly new. 

Q. — Has there been a policy in 
the accounting department for charg- 
ing off decreases in the value of dif- 
ferent properties? 

A. — No, sir; sometimes one man 
will charge off something, and some- 
times something else. 

Q. — It is an arbitrary valuation? 

A. — Yes, sir; it would be largely 
arbitrary. 

By Judge W. O. Diffie: 

Q. — You stated you were financial 
agent under Campbell's administra- 
tion? 

A. — One year and four months. 

Q. — You purchased the supplies 
for the system, did you not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What system did you follow 
in reference to buying? 

A. — We bought all our groceries 
on the submitted bids from the va- 
rious grocery houses, and we speci- 
fied the quality of goods we wanted 
to purchase. 

Q. — Now, I suppose if you wanted 
to buy $1000 worth of supplies it 
would consist of different items? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, how would you arrive 
at the lowest offer? Would you total 
them? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now, our expenses 
were not extensive so far as the va- 
rious articles are concerned, and 
numbers of the houses who bid could 
supply everything we wanted. 

Q. — In receiving those goods at 
the prison, did you ascertain if they 
shipped you what was ordered? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



69 



Q. — In checking them out, how 
did you keep track of them? 

A. — These goods were bought and 
ordered shipped to the various 
camps, and necessarily we must rely 
on the sergeant there to check them 
and make out the report. The in- 
spector also inspected the food sup- 
plies and other stuffs, and all this 
was embraced in the report. 

Q. — In regard to your reports, 
how did you make them up? 

A. — From the books in the office. 

Q. — You could make up another 
report from the same books? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I understood you to state you 
thought the prison system supplies 
were bought cheaper then those 
bought by the State Purchasing Agent 
for the other State institutions? 

A. — I think in a great many in- 
stances they were bought cheaper. 

Q. — How do you acount for same? 

A. — Well, in the variations in 
prices from month to month. The 
contractor is bound to protect him- 
self in making a year's contract, say 
on sugar and coffee, and such as that. 

Q. — Are you able to handle sup- 
plies in carload quantities? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — If they were concentrated and 
distributed from here, could you buy 
in carload quantities? 

A. — Yes, sir; in most cases. 

Q. — If you had a distributing point 
to the various camps, could you buy 
like wholesalers? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — So the system loses much 
money in not having a distributing 
point? 

A. — I think so. 

Q. — What would be your estimate 
of the amount that could be saved 
by having a distributing point and 
buying in large quantities? 

A. — About five per cent on general 
supplies; on some supplies more. 

Q. — You stated you advertised for 
bids. Did you limit that to grocers? 

A. — No, sir. Under the present 
law for articles that invoice more 
than $5 000, it requires us to adver- 
tize for bids and that has been fol- 
lowed out. 

Q. — What per cent of the total 
purchases were made under that pro- 
vision? 

A. — Well, I think probably 30 per 
cent. 

Q. — About 70 per cent under 
$5000? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Q. — What about the purchase of 
raw materials, etc.? Did you have 
control of this? 

A. — -Yes, sir. 

Q. — For instance, your material 
for wagons? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Where did you get this ma- 
terial? 

A. — I got it from St. Louis. You 
understand this wagon material is 
sawed at the different mills and con- 
centrated in St. Louis, and shipped 
out from there. 

Q. — Where did you get your fuel? 

A. — From a company in Houston. 

Q. — What kind of fuel is used at 
the sugar mills? 

A. — Crude oil. 

Q. — Under the competitive system 
of purchasing is there any one per- 
son that seems to get most or all of 
the business? 

A. — Yes, sir. The same one will 
handle the business most of the time. 

Q. — Who has handled the largest 
percentage of groceries? 

A. — W. D. Cleveland & Sons. He 
has for the last two years. His bids 
are generally under the rest. 

Q. — What is the average number 
of bids received? 

A. — For the past six or eight 
months we have had on an average 
two bidders. Owing to the financial 
state of anairs only two concerns 
have wanted to sell us. The last 
time there were about sixteen or 
eighteen bids for the reason they 
were notified we would have the 
money to pay the bills with. 

Q. — Mr. Barton, in accounting for 
the losses at Rusk and Huntsville, 
do you consider that Rusk was fairly 
or unfairly treated in the general 
losses between the two places? 

A. — I think it was entirely fair. 

Q. — You think there was no dis- 
crimination against Rusk? 

A. — No, sir. I don't think you 
could make up a statement that 
would be fairer as to the actual 
losses of the two concerns. Of course, 
you could charge one price for labor 
to one and the other another price 
and it would decrease your book 
loss. 

Q. — In another place you charged 
to the State railroad convict labor. 
_o you remember anything about the 
system in regard to the convict labor 
used by the State railroad? 

A. — Well, during the time the rail- 
road was being built Rusk had a 
large force of convicts, and I believe 



70 



Report and Findings of 



Rusk was charged with, the convict 
labor. 

Q. — Do you remember at what 
price? 

A. — I don't remember what the 
price was. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — In regard to the monthly re- 
ports, did you make up the receipts 
and expenditures? 

A. — No, sir; the office did that. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
the custom of discharging convicts? 
In some of these there will be 
amounts as high as $200 and opposite 
would be set the name of some in- 
dividual and simply the explanation: 
"discharged." 

A. — The voucher will explain that 
and will show what each item means. 

Q. — Were there several discharges 
in one voucher? 

A. — Yes, sir; and attached to this 
will be a separate statement placing 
the items of expense entered into 
those discharged accounts, and it 
would include the $5 discharge, the 
per diem, and the overtime, if he has 
any, and his ticket. 

Q. — Now, what is the system of 
accounting for that? Is there any 
system of voucher? 

A. — Under the old system the con- 
vict always signed the voucher and 
receipted for the money given him. 
Under the present system they have 
authorized the sergeant to pay out 
of his own funds and they will reim- 
burse the sergeant. 

Q. — Do you draw a draft direct on 
the treasurer for the amount? 

A. — The money is kept here. 

Q. — How do you make your entries 
on the books? 

A. — I never made an entry on a 
single book. 

Q. — Did you approve of the system 
that was practiced at that time? 

A. — I objected to the method of 
sergeants paying the discharge 
money. 

Q. — You say you protested against 
permitting the sergeant to pay money 
out of his own funds. What funds 
do you mean? 

A. — His own individual funds. If 
he had a convict to go out today he 
would ascertain the convict's over- 
time, pay him his $5 discharge money, 
and get him his railroad ticket. 

Q. — How would the Sergeant know 
what the per diem was? 

A. — He would get a record from 
the criminal office, showing the 
number and name of the convict to 



go out during the following month. 
I understand, however, some of the 
Sergeants would buy the ticket. Mr. 
Moore showed me a letter where Mr. 
Blakely permitted this. 

Q. — Is the money given to the 
convict to purchase the ticket? 

Mr. Moore states. — I will state, 
gentlemen, that Mr. Blakely's ar- 
rangement, as he represented it to 
me, was with the bank — Mr. Blake- 
ly's farm being located some six or 
seven miles from the ticket office. 
He made arrangements to draw a 
draft for the discharged money, per 
diem and overtime, and the ticket 
for transportation. He would phone 
and find out the value of the ticket 
to the point where the convict 
claimed he was going and he would 
include this amount in the draft, and 
he would turn it over to the mail 
man, a trusty convict, and he would 
take it to the bank and present it. 
He was then supposed to receive an 
order for the ticket, but the bank 
violated these instructions and would 
pay him the money. It was a mis- 
application of funds by the bank. 

Mr. Tillotson interrogates Mir. 
Moore: 

Q. — How many instances of this 
kind came to your knowledge? 

A. — He took his office in Janu- 
ary, and this pertains to all the dis- 
charges after June. 

Q. — Did they take a receipt from 
the discharged convicts? 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — You say they took a receipt 
from the discharged convict? 

A. — Yes, sir; there was a receipt 
taken from him. 

Q. — At what time was the receipt 
taken from him? 

A. — At the time of his discharge. 

Q. — What bank had this arrange- 
ment? 

A. — H. P. Davis & Co., Richmond, 
Texas. 

Q. — This convict would go there 
and say he was going to El Paso, 
would he give a receipt for the 
money? 

A. — Yes, sir. They would give 
the money to the negro trusty, and 
the agent of the Southern Pacific 
and the convict bookkeeper and the 
negro driver would divide the bal- 
ance, and they would give to the 
discharged convict $1 to $4, or just 
as little as possible. 

Q. — How many cases of this kind 
did you locate? 

A. — It amounted to $613.50 to- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



71 



gether with the tickets cancelled in 
Houston, which would amount to 
about as much from that one point. 
The law provides that a convict when 
he is discharged, can go to any point 
he may designate. Now there has 
been a great number of tickets pur- 
chased for El Paso and I am having 
each and every one of those men 
traced to their destination. 

Q. — Is it not very expensive to 
trace them? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What could you do if you 
found out? 

A. — Now all this occurred under 
Mr. Barton's administration, and I 
would not like to — 

Q. — I think, Mr. Moore, we knew 
of these transactions before we left 
Austin. Have you made a careful 
investigation of these transactions? 

A. — I have found where a great 
number of irregularities occurred, 
according to my judgment. I will 
have out a line of inquiries in the 
course of a week and when I hear 
from them will check them over. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — Under the law, is it compul- 
sory that the convict go to his des- 
tination? 

A. — No, sir. He is not compelled 
to go. He can buy a ticket any- 
where; say El Paso, demand the 
money for the ticket, pocket, the 
money for the ticket and get off any- 
where. 

Mr. Tillotson resumes interroga- 
tion of Mr. Barton: 

Q. — In the audit of 1908, I see the 
furniture factory at Huntsville shows 
a loss of $51,000. Have you any ex- 
planation to make in regard to this? 

A. — No sir; I have no special ex- 
planation, Mr. Tillotson. 

Q. — What was done with the stock 
of furniture on hand at that time? 

A. — In 1908? 

Q. — Yes, sir. 

A. — That furniture was sold to 
the trade like it was always done. 

Q. — Do you know at what prices 
it was sold? 

A. — No, sir. There was some old 
furniture left on hand at Rusk that 
was sold under contract to a firm in 
Tyler. 

Q. — You don't know how much 
there was of it? 

A. — No, sir. Mr. Wright was the 
lnancial agent then and he sold it 
at a close price. 



Q. — Was there considerable fur- 
niture sold at a low price? 

A. — I think probably there was 
some inducement made to move it. 

Q. — Do you know whether or not 
it was below the cost of the ma- 
terial that entered into it? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you understand that there 
was a difference of something like 
$30,000 in one item? 

A. — No, sir. I was not financial 
agent at that time. 

Q. — But you say that furniture 
was sold in bulk? 

A. — I had reference to the furni- 
ture at Rusk. I don't know about 
Huntsville. 

Senator Warren makes statement: 
Taking the monthly reports for 1912, 
the average number of men in the 
Rusk penitentiary during that year 
was 215, and the net loss to the 
State for operations for that year 
at Rusk was $106,600, which shows 
the net loss to the State for each con- 
vict to be $495, or $1.54 per day. 
The monthly reports for the year 
1911 show that there is an average 
number of men in the Rusk prison 
of 122, and that the net losses in 
the operations of said year aggre- 
gated $85,219, which shows a per 
capita loss of $699 for the said year 
over and above all revenue derived 
from the labor, or over $2.00 per day, 
and these figures for 1911 and 1912 
do not include the overhead ex- 
penses of the fixed charges against 
the penitentiary system in general. 



WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 1913, AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Testimony of J. A. Herring. 

By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 

Q. — How long were you in charge 
of the prison system? 

A. — Pour years. 

Q. — At what time did you take 
charge? 

A. — February 21, 1907, and went 
out on the 26th of February, 1911. 

Q. — This statement was made up 
from January 20, 1911, to January, 
1913. 

A. — The Commissioners took 
charge at that time. 

Q. — The statement shows $49,- 
478.06 cash on hand, also bills re- 
ceivable, and accounts receivable, 
$60,950.07. Under your adminis- 
tration the state bought the Im- 



72 



Keport and Findings of 



perial farm from the Imperial Sugar 
Company? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How did the State pay for 
same? 

A. — We bought the land for $165,- 
000, including the live stock, etc., 
and were to pay 4 per cent of the 
gross proceeds until it was paid for, 
and we paid it out in two years. 

Q. — You did not pay it solely out 
of the profit from that land? 

A. — No, sir. The next year we 
paid the balance from the proceeds 
of other crops. 

Q. — Did any of the proceeds go to 
.pay any other accounts expect the 
.amount due on the land? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — About what were the net pro- 
ceeds of the Imperial farm during 
the years you were paying for this 
land? It has been said that the 
proceeds of that farm paid itself out 
in two years. 

A. — I think probably if all the pro- 
ceeds of the farm had been applied 
it would have done so, but I don't 
think it would if the expenses had 
been paid out of the proceeds. 

Q. — Do you remember the amounts 
paid in 1909 and 1910? 

A. — I can not say. I have no 
data in my hands. We made a very 
large cotton crop, and one year we 
made a good cane crop. 

Q. — Do you remember the net re- 
sults of the farming operations for 
the two years? 

A. — No, sir; but the last year we 
made a good cotton crop and a short 
cane crop, and the next year we made 
a poor cotton crop and a good cane 
crop. 

Q. — You could not say from mem- 
ory whether or not the net results in 
the operations of the Imperial for 1909 
were better or worse than 1910? 

A. — We paid the best payment the 
first year, 1909. That year we had a 
pretty good cane crop, and the price 
was good. I don't remember much 
about the cotton crop. 

Q. — This statement shows that 
while we had a crop worth $199,- 
264.79 it took $134,316.20 to make it. 

A. — That included the convict la- 
bor, and we bought $2,000 worth of 
mules. 

Q. — Now we want to get at wheth- 
er the farms or factories are running 
at a loss or profit. The books show 
we lost money in the operations of 



the Imperial farm during 1910 unless 
we would increase our inventory. 

A - — I want to say the Imperial 
farm was paid for in 1909 and 1910. 
My recollection is we paid for the Im- 
perial farm with the first two crops. 

Q- — Were the moneys received from 
the operations of this farm kept sepa- 
rate? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q- — You spoke as if the farm was 
kept separate? 

A. — Yes, sir; but we got money 
from any source to pay the indebt- 
edness. In other words, if we made 
a loss on one and a gain on another, 
we would take money from the one 
we made the gain on and pay off the 
debts of the one with the loss. 

Q. — Do you know of anybody in 
Texas making money on sugar cane? 

A. — No, sir; I think not. 

Q. — You would not consider raising 
cane a good investment in Texas? 

A. — I think it is a very risky prop- 
osition. 

Q. — What was the acreage on the 
Imperial farm of cane and cotton? 

A. — There was more cane than cot- 
ton. We put in 600 acres of cotton 
the second year. 

Q. — What was the number of acres 
in cotton in 1910? 

A. — Well, we had around 2,000 acres 
in cane, and probably about the same 
amount in cotton. 

Q. — Do you think cotton is a much 
more profitable crop? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think that the sugar 
plants owned by the State could grind 
all the cane produced on the State 
farms? 

A. — I don't think the one at the 
Harlem farm could. The Clements 
mill is a good one, but the Harlem 
mill is a small one, and I don't think 
it would take care of the cane on the 
Imperial farm. 

Q. — From your experience with the 
penitentiary system would you say to 
this Committee if any of the manu- 
facturing departments are a financial 
success? 

A. — I doubt if any of them have 
made money. A good many years ago 
I think probably the machine shop 
made good money. I don't think the 
others would show much profit. I 
think the wagon shop might make 
good money, also the blacksmith 
shop. The wagon shop products ap- 
pear to sell the best. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



73 



Q. — What about the furniture de- 
partment? 

A. — It might be made to pay, but I 
don't think it ever has. 

Q. — Why do you think it cannot be 
made to pay? 

A. — We have not the skilled labor. 
Now at times it will seem as if they 
were making a profit, but in a series 
of years it will show a loss. Until 
this new law went into effect we nev- 
er appropriated more than $12,000 a 
year out of the general revenue for 
convicts. 

Q. — How did you manage to run 
the system along that general line so 
you needed only about $12,000 for the 
convicts? 

A. — I suppose all the administra- 
tions go and borrow a little money. 

Q. — Did you have any floating debts 
when you went out of office? 

A. — No, sir; except we owed the 
State $100,000 on State railroads. 

Q. — You gave quite a good deal of 
attention to the operation of the 
farms? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you prepared to say to this 
Committee as an investment for the 
State it is a good proposition to con- 
tinue the operation of the farms we 
have? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — These audits show we are losing 
money. Why is it the private indi- 
viduals make money and the State 
cannot? 

A. — The man who has his money in 
it will give it more attention prob- 
ably. 

Q. — Do you think it can be done 
with the State? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What was the amount paid for 
convict labor? 

A. — We got $21 per month for ne- 
groes and $20 per month for whites 
and Mexicans. They came in later 
with bids at $31 per month. 

Q. — You had a larger demand than 
you had men to supply? 

A. — Yes, sir. We got bids after that 
for men to work in turpentine camps 
at $45, and one force at a coal mine 
at $44 per month. 

Q. — I think the estimate has been 
made the cost at that time was $15.84 
per month. 

A. — I know it was less than $16 
per month. 

Q. — Don't you think, Mr. Herring, 
that inasmuch as it cost the State 
$16 per month per "capita to keep its 
convicts, that if private individuals 



could afford to pay that we certainly 
ought to come out even? What is the 
reason? 

A. — I am not prepared to say. I 
believe we were able to make them 
pay, and I think it can be done. At 
the present price of farm produce I 
see no reason why it cannot be done. 
Q. — What figure does it cut in the 
management of the factory part of the 
system, both Huntsville and Rusk, be- 
cause of being in isolated places. Do 
you find you lack the facilities for 
distribution and can not sell the 
products at a good figure? 

A. — We have not got the facilities 
here for handling the products, but we 
have three railroads at Rusk, \but 
there we have lost more money than 
at Huntsville. 

Q. — Did the railroad branch of the 
penitentiary system ever pay off its 
indebtedness? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Was that railroad necessary to 
the success of the Rusk penitentiary 
manufacturing plants ? 

A— If the T. & N. O. had not built 
in there it would have paid. We were 
very much in need of a road out of 
there. 

Q. — You think the wagon manufac 
turing business would probably be the 
most paying proposition? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Where did you get the material? 
A. — Arkansas, Oklahoma and Miss- 
ouri, but mostly from St. Louis. 
There is a certain class of convicts 
not suited to put on the outside of the 
walls, and it is necessary to have 
work on the inside for them. 

Q. — To which branch of the manu- 
facturing department of the peniten- 
tiary system are the convicts most 
easily adapted? What work is it eas- 
ier for them to learn — wagons? 

A. — Probably yes. I suppose it is 
as easily learned as any other depart- 
ment. 

Q. — Don't you think the foundry de- 
partment is a losing thing? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Does it not take a long time for 
them to make a good man? 

A. — Occasionally you get a good 
man at molding; one who has already 
learned the business before he came 
to the penitentiary. 

Q. — Did you ever figure out if they 
made a profit? 

A. — I think the men in the shops 
claim they did. We did our own cus- 
tom work and charged as much as we 
wanted to and would charge enough 



74 



Report and Findings of 



to come out even, especially the shoe 
and tailor shop. 

Q. — Are you familiar enough to say 
to this Committee whether or not 
shoes can be made here at a profit? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think it can be done. 
We made only a common shoe when 
I was here. 

"Q. — What was land worth at the 
time we bought the Imperial farm in 
that neighborhood? 

A.— About $40 or $50 per acre. 

Q. — And what did we take it over 
for? 

A. — $165,000, for all plants, live 
stock, etc. 

Q. — Has land in that portion of the 
country enhanced in value? 

A. — Yes, sir. It is now selling at 
about $100 per acre. 

Q. — Are any individuals at the pres- 
ent time engaged in the same line of 
farming, such as raising sugar cane? 

A. — I don't know. If cane has been 
planted on a certain piece of land for 
a number of years you want to ro- 
tate it and plant it in corn and peas, 
and so on. Part of that land was in 
cultivation long before the war. 

Q. — What was the condition of the 
live stock on that farm? 

A. — They were in good shape. The 
mules were in good shape. There 
were 139 mules and 18 horses. I 
suppose a dozen mules were worn 
out. Sixty some odd of them had 
been bought the year before by Mr. 
Eldridge. 

Q. — Did you have to replace any 
great amount of them on the farm? 

A. — Yes, sir; I replaced some 
mules. I leased some additional 
land, and bought two carloads of 
mules, and sold off about 45. mules. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Do you believe you would have 
paid off the farms purchased if you 
had despended solely on the earnings 
of these farms alone? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — We purchased the Imperial 
farm on what date? 

A. — In February, 1908. 

Q. — Did you have a freeze on the 
farm while you were here? 

A. — In 1910 we had a freeze. 

Q. — You delivered cane to Mr. 
Eldridge under contract, did you not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
sugar plant on the Harlem farm? 

A. — I understand some improve- 
ments have been made. 



Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
the sugar making business to be able 
to say to this committee if it is a 
good investment to run a sugar 
plant? 

A. — I don't regard it as any suc- 
cess. 

Q. — What about raising potatoes? 

A. — Some farmers have been very 
successful. The State did not do 
much at it. About the only thing 
about it we were able to fertilize the 
land and put it in good shape. 

Q. — You never made anything out 
of potatoes? 

A. — We made the most money out 
of cotton. Some years we made 
money out of cane, but it is not a 
crop to be depended on. 

Q. — How many acres did you cul- 
tivate to the man? 

A. — About twenty acres to the 
man. On some farms you can work 
more land than others. 

Q. — How many hours did you re- 
quire the convicts to work? 

A. — It depended largely on condi- 
tions. 

Q. — You would not average more 
than twelve hours would you? 

A. — April and May we probably 
did it. 

Q. — Would you average working 
the convicts ten hours? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think we did. Dur- 
ing the month of December, January, 
February and March it would be hard 
to get in ten hours. In April, May 
and June we probably .averaged ten 
hours. 

Q. — Did you visit these farms fre- 
quently? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And the farms were kept in 
good conditions? 

A. — Yes, sir; some years they were 
hard to keep in good condition, and 
then other years it would be easier. 

Q. — But on an average they were 
kept in good condition? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 

Q. — Senator Willacy and you have 
gone into a full and complete farm 
discussion, and you take the position 
it can be made profitable, and I 
would like to ask you some questions 
so you can enlighten me. Now, on 
December 31, 1912, the audit shows 
a net loss on the farms of $366,- 
4 55.88 and on the share farms $92,- 
982.54, which makes a total of about 
$4 65,000 in round figures. Now, I 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



75 



want to call your attention to the 
following losses: 

Loss on account of manu- 
facturing industries $ 5,970 

Prison maintenance and 

labor . .' 142,458 

General expenses 277,772 

Making a total of $426,200 

Now, the only credits we have at 
Huntsville is convict labor, $95,584, 
three manufacturing industries and 
store, $32,654.69, which aggregates 
about $128,000, which, if taken from 
the losses of $42 6,2 00, would leave 
about $300,000 loss. Now, I want 
you to make a guess. How much of 
this $300,00 loss should be charged 
against the State farms and lease 
farms? 

A.— I could not make a guess at 
all. 

Q. — Would you make a guess how 
much of this $300,000 loss should be 
charged against the Rusk peniten- 
tiary? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Well, how much would be 
charged against the Huntsville opera- 
tions? 

A. — I can't say about that. 

Q. — How would you base this loss 
in regard to the different industries? 

A. — I would base it on the per 
capita of convicts. 

Q. — Then if Huntsville carries on 
an average of 666 convicts and Rusk 
has 300 convicts, that would be one- 
fourth of the prison population. Now, 
would you pro-rate one-fourth of the 
losses to Huntsville and Rusk? 

A. — I don't think it would be 
$300,000, and I think you are mis- 
taken about the general office force 
amounting to anything, like $277,- 
000. If you could get into the pay 
rolls and take the expenses or sala- 
ries of the three Commissioners and 
their assistants in the office, that is 
the amount it should be. Now, I 
have not changed my mind. I still 
think if you will amend the laws 
and reorganize the penitentiary sys- 
tem you will make money. 

Q. — Individuals have made money, 
have they not? 

A. — Yes, sir; and they have dou- 
bled the prices we are paying. 

Q. — Are you willing to go still fur- 
ther and state to the committee your 
opinion as to just what the mistakes 
are? 

A. — No, sir. 



Q. — Are you familiar with the 
farms? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have we too many employees? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — Have we competent employ- 
ees? 

A. — I can't say in regard to that. 

Q. — Are the salaries too large? 

A. — I don't think your salaries are 
too large, provided they are fixed in 
the right way. I believe anyone who 
gets good service should be willing 
to pay for it. 

Q. — Do we buy the supplies for our 
convicts in a businesslike way? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. However, 
it might be improved on. You might 
make the advertising more general. 
I believe we have a law that when we 
want a certain amount of stuff we 
must advertise for it, but I think 
competition has been pretty good. 

Q. — Do we sell our products in the 
right way? 

A. — So far as I know, we do. 

Q. — Have you any suggestions to 
make on that? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many mules belonging to 
the system when you went out? 

A. — I don't remember as to that. 

Q. — Is there any record in the 
office as to how many there were? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Hill: 

Q. — I wish you would give the 
Committee your judgment, based on 
your experience, as to the kind and 
class of punishment that would be 
best for the convicts. 

A. — I don't believe it is practica- 
ble. If you will let me refer to a 
letter I addressed to Mr. Gill, you 
will rind in my letter I did not be- 
lieve it practicable to rely on the 
strap. I suggested it should be 
abolished only for certain kinds of 
convicts. 

Q. — Now, in reference to the hours 
of labor, do you believe it feasible 
for the Legislature to authorize the 
prison officials to use their discre- 
tion in regard to the number of hours 
the prisoners work? 

A. — There is no reason on earth 
why they should not do so. They 
are certainly competent enough to 
know what men ought to do. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — You are not in favor of abol- 
ishing corporal punishment? 

A. — It provides for corporal pun- 
ishment in the third grade. It makes 
it possible to handle a convict when 



76 



Report and Findings of 



you can't get anything out of him 
any other way. 

Q. — You stated a moment ago, in 
your judgment, the raising of sugar 
cane was a very unprofitable busi- 
ness? 

A. — Yes, sir; very unprofitable. 
You can take the history of those who 
have been engaged in this business 
and they have never made any money 
out of it. The sugar cane business 
is a very expensive business; it is ex- 
pensive to plant the crop and it is 
very expensive to take off, and then 
it is very hard on mules. 

Q. — What is the fair average yield 
per acre on sugar cane in tons? 
A. — Fifteen tons. 

Q. — What per cent of the cane is 
lost by freezes? 

A. — I can't say as to that. If you 
have a freeze early in the season it 
will hurt you more than later in the 
season. 

Q. — How many destructive freezes 
have you had in the last ten years? 
A. — About three. 
By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
Q. — You stated in your opinion 
none of the manufacturing industries 
have paid. Was not it always cus- 
tomary during your term of office 
during the cane season to take all 
the able-bodied men out of the walls, 
also those engaged in the factories, 
to harvest the cane? 

A. — We put every man we could 
spare to harvesting the cane. 

Q. — There was a period each year 
you would practically dismantle the 
prison? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you make any allowance 
for that in the estimate of the profits 
and losses for the factories? 

A. — We prepared a certain amount 
of work for them to do and when 
they had finished it up we would 
transport them to the farms. 

Q. — Would you recommend the 
discontinuance of any of the facto- 
ries? 

A. — (No response.) 
Q. — Would you recommend dis- 
continuing any of the factories, 
taking the fact into consideration 
you took all the able-bodied men out 
of the walls to harvest the cane, and 
taking that as a possible reason for 
the loss sustained? 

A. — I think that has been one 
reason to a certain extent the fac- 
tories have not made a profit. 



Q. — Do you think this would de- 
crease efficiency? 

A. — I would not be able to say. 

Q. — In making the inventories of 
the different properties what was 
your policy? 

A. — We called on the foremen of 
the different shops and farms and 
they furnished the inventories, to- 
gether with the valuation of the 
property, live stock, tools, etc. 

Q. — How much land did you pur- 
chase during your term of office? 

A. — About 14,000 acres of land. 

Q. — And what proportion of it was 
paid for. 

A. — All of it. 

Q. — Did that include the Imperial 
farm? 

A. — The Imperial and the Ramsey 
farm. 

Q. — Did it include the piece of 
property now in litigation? 

A. — Yes, sir; the Imperial farm. 

Q.— Did you do any clearing of 
land? 

A. — Yes, sir; we cleared the 
Clements farm. When we went into 
office it had been bought and paid 
for, but we improved the farm, and 
we also cleared the Ramsey farm. 

Q. — What was your custom in 
crediting permanent improvements in 
the property account such as clear- 
ing up land, etc. 

A. — We would arrive at the value" 
of the permanent improvements. 

Q. — Then when you inventoried 
those properties where you had 
cleared land, how much would you 
add? 

A. — If we used $25,000 to clear 
the land, then we would add that 
much to the inventory. 

•Q. — Now, there seems to be an 
unusual large number of bad ac- 
counts. What do you attribute this 
to? Was there lack of diligence? 

A. — I suppose so. 

Q. — All through this report I see 
where bad accounts have been 
charged off through this administra- 
tion, and some of them charged off 
shortly after the present Commis- 
sioners went into office. Were you 
hampered in collecting these ac- 
counts by reason of inability to 
bring suit? 

A. — No, sir; we never tried to 
bring suits. 

Q. — Don't you think you would 
have collected a great many if you 
had? 

A. — We had a lawyer to look into 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



77 



some of these accounts, and we col- 
lected a few of them, but others 
could not be collected. • 

Q. — I find there quite a number 
of these items charged off, and fn 
the present reports we find many 
Bills Receivable and Accounts Re- 
ceivable passed on as doubtful, and 
it indicated a rather careless method 
of collection or the selection of a 
poor class of people to sell to. 
Would you state, Mr. Herring, the 
number of industries of the peniten- 
tiary system that were discontinued 
during your superintendency? 

A. — The Rusk machine shop. 

Q. — When was the tobacco plant 
discontinued? 

A. — Before I went into office. I 
don't remember any other. The 
machine shop was operated on a 
small scale. We had only a few 
men then, and we had some ore in 
the field. 

Q. — Were they working the ore 
mines? 

A. — Part of the time. 

Q. — What was your system for 
crediting and charging? 

A. — We charged so much a ton 
for ore. For ore delivered to the 
furnace we charged $1 per ton, and 
for operating we charged 50 cents. 

Q. — What was your experience in 
regard to the management of the 
State Railroad? 

A. — Not a very glowing success. 
It was not a paying proposition. 

Q- — What is the amount invested 
in the sugar houses, Mr. Herring? 

A. — The mill at the Clements farm 
originally cost $260,000, and I think 
the Harlem mill cost $75,000 or 
$80,000. 

Q. — What practical use could this 
machinery be put to? 

A. — I would operate a cotton mill 
at the Harlem farm and at the 
Clements farm I would raise cane 
and operate that mill. 

Q. — What acreage of cane would 
that give you? 

A. — About 5000 or 6000 acres in 
cane. Sufficient for that mill. 

Q. — You stated just now no man 
had ever made any money in the 
cultivation of cane and manufacture 
of sugar? 

A. — That is true since the convict 
lease system has been abolished. 
Some of them, however, kept in bus- 
iness for a long time. Cunningham 
and Ellis did for twenty-five years, 
but they have both run into bank- 



ruptcy. I thought those fellows 
made lots of money fifteen years ago, 
but it is a fact the material reason 
for their success was they were able 
to control convict labor. You have 
to be able to utilize that labor. 

Q. — What would you call a rea- 
sonable day's work? 

A. — The same as the farmer who 
tries to make a living on his farm, 
and he would expect to get out and 
work all day if it was necessary to 
save his crop, and I say if you can 
not get common labor to windrow 
cane and take care of it, you might 
as well get out of the cane business. 

Q. — Captain Herring, you have 
had considerable experience with 
convicts, now 1 would like to ask 
you what is your judgment in regard 
to the per diem? 

A. — I think that is a joke. 

Q. — Are there any present options 
to purchase farms acquired during 
your term of office? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What acreage, in your judg- 
ment, would be necessary or advisa- 
ble for the State to own for farming 
purposes, considering the number of 
inmates who are not able to work on 
the farm and also the number who 
could be profitably employed inside 
the walls — industries, that even if 
not profitable would be at least self- 
sustaining and save money to the 
system — what acreage would you 
recommend? 

A. — About 45,000 to 50,000 acres. 
I think the State at the present time 
has about 35,000 acres. I might not 
be correct about this, but it is in 
the neighborhood. 

Q. — Do you think it would be bet- 
ter for the State to purchase that 
land rather than lease or rent it? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — What is your judgment in re- 
gard to maintaining a prison at 
Rusk? 

A. — I think it ought to have been 
abolished long ago. 

Q. — I believe you stated a while 
ago there were more employes than 
were really necessary. Do you be- 
lieve it possible to parole a number 
of convicts and use them in the 
guard work? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think it is 
practicable? 

Q. — What would be your objec- 
tions? Do you mind stating? 

A. — I don't think it would be safe. 
There might be a few cases where it 



78 



Report and Findings of 



would be all right, but I think the 
most of them would make the most 
cruel guards. 

Q. — How many men did you have 
to the guard? 

A. — About ten or twelve. Some- 
times I had as high as fifteen or 
sixteen, but I tried to have twelve 
men to the guard. 

Q. — Was that about the average? 

A.— Yes, sir. 

Q. — What do you thing about the 
salary of the guards? 

A. — I don't think $35 per month 
is anything too much. I think the 
guards the poorest paid employes in 
the State's service. 

Q. — Mr. Herring, have you any 
suggestions to make in regard to 
the management of the penitentiary 
system? 

A. — I would reorganize the entire 
system, and I would have one man 
in charge of the penitentiary system, 
and would let him organize a force 
that would be efficient, and would 
pay him a good salary and hold him 
responsible. You can't divide the 
penitentiary into three or four parts. 
I think any man worthy to be kept 
as a guard is worth $35. I believe 
you ought to pay from $35 to $50 
per month, according to efficiency. 

By Senator Willacy: 

Q. — Have you made any estimate 
in your own mind as to the in- 
creased cost of operating the peni- 
tentiary system under the present 
system compared with the old law? 

A. — No, sir; I don't know wXat it 
is, but it is considerable. The per 
diem amounts to something, and I 
think perhaps the most serious loss 
is the short hours. 

Q. — You would say, then, that the 
effect of this law enters into the op- 
eration of every department? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — That the conditions surround- 
ing the management of the State 
farms under the present law is not 
as favorable for showing profit as 
under the previous law? 

A. — I should think not. Now, 
when we made share contracts the 
State furnished the convicts' camp 
outfits and provisions, and the con- 
tractors furnished the tools and fed 
the guards' horses, and the State got 
60 to 40 per cent of the proceeds 
of the crop. 

Q. — Have you in mind the total 



amount paid for land during your 
term of office? 

A. — We paid $160,000 for the Im- 
perial farm, $39,000 for another 
farm and $115,000 for the Ramsey 
farm. 

Q. — When were the Wynne and 
Goree farms bought? 

A. — I improved the Goree farm, 
but it was bought ■ before I went 
into office. 

Q. — That makes practically $314,- 
000 paid out for land? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I believe you stated it would 
not have been possible to have paid 
the farms out in a reasonable length 
of time had it not been for the re- 
sources derived from the leasing out 
i of convicts? 

A. — Yes, sir; when we bought 
these farms they were in the woods 
and the Ramsey farm was not in cul- 
tivation and they had to be improved 
and I think the State ought to have 
worked the convicts on their own 
lands, and I think it should be done 
now. 

Q. — How much land is planted in 
cane outside of what the State owns? 

A. — Very little now, I think. I 
don't know how much has been 
planted. I imagine 1500 acres will 
cover it all. I imagine 1500 acres 
will cover everything in that sec- 
tion of the country. The State owns 
the bulk of the land planted in cane. 
Just as soon as the people found out 
that planting cane was unprofitable 
they dumped it all on the State. 
They quit growing cotton on account 
of the boll weevil, and now they 
have got out of the cane business. 

Q. — How much of this land that 
we have an option on is planted in 
cane now? 

A. — Six hundred acres on the 
Trammell place, 1500 on the Mas- 
terson place and about 100 acres 
on the George Homesley place. 
Now, Mr. Cunningham had 4300 
acres of cane on 14,000 acres of 
land. He has gone into the cotton 
business. Deer Bros, had in about 
1500 acres: Adams 750 or 800 acres 
cane; Charlie Riddick had about 500 
acres in cane, and they are all going 
into the cotton business. 

Q. — Is not the individual getting 
out of the cane raising business and 
the State getting into it? 

Mr. Brahan states: The people 
were driven out of the cotton busi- 
ness on account of the boll weevil. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



Now, I can give you an illustra- 
tion: At one time we had in 12 00 
acres of cotton and gathered six 
bales. 

A. — The cane business is not prof- 
itable unless a man has the labor 
to depend on every day in the year. 
A man can have twenty-five or thirty 
acres of cane, but he can't afford 
to put any amount of land in the 
cultivation of cane. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — I believe you said a minute 
ago a pretty good crop for one man 
would be about twenty acres? 

A. — I said that was about what 
we worked. 

Q. — The testimony before the 
Committee up to this time is they are 
working about eleven acres? 

A. — That must be due to some de- 
fect in the law, as it would seem 
they are not coming up to what they 
should do. 

Q. — Are you personally acquaint- 
ed with the overseers of these farms? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And are they competent men 
to look after that kind of business? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — What is the amount of salary 
they get? 

A. — $17 5. 

Q. — Do you regard that salary 
sufficient? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Not too much nor too little? 

A. — Xo, sir. 

Q. — Now you spoke about the 
Rusk penitentiary being such a bur- 
den for the system to carry; what 
do you think of the idea of moving 
the Rusk institution and the Hunts- 
villa prison and consolidating them 
in a centrally located point — say 
Houston or Dallas or Austin? 

A. — I don't know of the necessity 
of moving them anywhere. As to 
the advisability of moving from here 
to Houston or Dallas, I am not pre- 
pared to say. Of course, Huntsville 
has not the railroad conveniences 
some of the other places have got, 
but we have got the penitentiary al- 
ready here, and it would be very ex- 
pensive to move it. 

Q. — Now you spoke of another 
thing, and that is the idea of hav- 
ing one manager. Now would you 
express your opinion as to whether 
or not he ought to be appointed or 
elected? 

A. — I think I said in my recom- 
mendation you should have a peni- 
tentiary board, or a Commission, and 



they should appoint a superintendent 
of the penitentiary, and he should 
appoint all the other officers, and a 
man ought to stay in the office as 
long as he retains his efficiency and 
he should be appointed by the Com- 
mission so he would not be cam- 
paigning the State to get elected 
again. I think he ought to be ap- 
pointed. 

By Senator Robert L. Warren: 

Q. — What do you think about the 
question of the amount of salary the 
manager should receive? 

A. — About three or four thousand 
dollars. 

Q. — I want to ask you this further 
| question: Y x ou have given the peni- 
tentiary matters a great deal of 
J study, what do you think about in- 
troducing a much larger trusty sys- 
tem for the convicts? 

A. — We have always had trusties, 
more or less. 

Q. — What do you think of the 
idea of greatly increasing the num- 
ber of trusties ana putting them to 
work en the public roads of Texas? 

A. — The trouble with that is you 
must have temporary quarters for 
them, for they would be moving from 
place to place. Now you will find 
always in operating the farms it is 
very necessary to have a large num- 
ber of trusties. 

Q.- — Would you enlarge some of 
the manufacturing enterprises and- 
furnish such supplies as the con- 
victs could make to the other State 
institutions? 

A. — Well, I think I would favor 
enlarging them enough to employ 
several hundred white convicts. They 
are more intelligent than the others, 
but then with the short term con- 
vict it is useless to put him at that 
kind of work. Y\"e have something 
like 5 000 insane in the State and of 
course the State has to buy supplies 
for them. 

Q. — Can the convict labor be util- 
ized profitably in that line? 

A. — I don't think it can be util- 
ized profitably, but at least you 
might be able to break even on it. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — In the inventory that was 
made in 1909, are you familiar with 
the methods of arriving at the val- 
ues? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — Take the Huntsville inven- 
tory, buildings $434,495, was any 



80 



Report and Findings of 



expert assistant employed at that 
time to make the inventory? 

A. — No, sir; I think not. 

Q. — What is your recollection as 
to the manner in which they arrived 
at the value of the buildings at 
Huntsville and Rusk? 

A. — My understanding was they 
took the original cost of the build- 
ings and added such repairs as had 
been made from time to time. 

Q. — Was there any uniform meth- 
od followed? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you recall the improve- 
ments made on these Huntsville 
buildings in 1910? 

A. — No, sir; but there were some 
improvements made. 

Q. — As much as $20,000? 

A. — Probably that much. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — The Ramsey farm was bought 
during your term of office, was it 
not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — From wht>m did you buy that 
farm? 

A. — Bassett Blakely and Kempner. 

Q. — Did Mr. Blakely own that 
farm, or did he hold it by option? 

A. — He owned it, I think. 

Q. — What price did you pay for 
this land? 

A. — $13.75 per acre. 

Q. — How many acres were there 
in this tract of land? 

A. — Seventy hundred and some 
odd acres. 

Q. — Were some other improve- 
ments contemplated on that place 
when you bought it? 

A. — They were improving the 
place when we got it. 

Q. — Was there not a railroad 
proposition? 

A. — There was a railroad survey 
running through the place. 

Q. — Who built the railroad? 

A. — The State. They did not 
build the road. We had a bond 
from Blakely and Kempner agree- 
ing that they would build the rail- 
road, but in the event they did not, 
they were to forfeit to the State 
$15,000. They would not build 
the road and we proceeded to build 
it ourselves. The road cost us about 
$47,000 and we sold it for $32,500, 
and Blakely and Kempner forfeited 
to us the $15,000. 

Q. — You don't remember how 
many acres there were in that tract 
of land? 

A. — 7 8 00 acres, I think. 



Q. — And you paid how much? 

A.— $13.75 per acre for it. 

Q. — How much of this tract of land 
was good land? 

A.— All of it. 

Q. — Did you get a deed from them? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 

Q. — Does not the State own a road 
down there now? 
. A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How much does it lack of get- 
ling to the coas*? 

A. — It is about seven miles from 
the coast. 

Q. — Does it come anywhere near 
Freeport? 

A. — It is about four or five miles 
to the sulphur mines. I suppose it is 
aoout eight miles to Freeport. 

Q.--I have heard the extension of 
that road down to Freeport would 
beat the production of the State 
farms, and have also heard that if we 
could get a way to ship shells it could 
a!sc be used for that purpose. Whal 
would be the cost of extending that 
road? 

A. — It is rather a low marshy coun- 
try, but I don't think it would be very 
expensive. 

Q. — Who is operating the Sugar 
Land road now? 

A.— Mr. Eldridge. 

Q. — Does the track run on any of 
the other farms? 

A. — Yes, sir; it goes to the Harlem 
farm, about two and a naif miles from 
Sugar Land. 

Q. — Was the Anchor road built for 
the purpose of taking the cane to the 
Clemens mill? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How much of this road was sold 
to Mr. Eldridge? 

A. — About seven miles. 

Q. — What was the condition of the 
road? 

A. — Standard guage; fairly good 
grade ties, and I think thirty-two steel 
was used, and then relaid with steel 
shipped from Rusk, about fifty-six 
pounds. The track to the Harlem farm 
is laid with thirty-five-pound steel. It 
answered the purpose we wanted it 
for. 

Q. — What did you sell this Anchor 
road to Mr. Eldridge for? 

A. — $32,500. 

Q. — What kind of ties did you use? 

A. — Some of them were fine ties. 

Q. — How much right-of-way did you 
own? 

A. — Fifty feet. We did not want to 
operate a road. We had no use for a 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



81 



road except to get our stuff out. 

Q. — Did that put the State to any 
disadvantage to handle it's own cane? 

A. — I think not. 

Q. — You testified a while ago the 
Ramsey place cost you $115,000, and 
later on you said there was 7,700 and 
some odd acres. Is not that $15 per 
acre for the land. 

A. — Well, I don't know. I have not 
figured it out. 

Q. — Do you know what Bassett 
Blakelv and Kempner paid for the 
land? 

A.— No, sir; I do not. 

Q. — How long has the State oper- 
ated the Shaw farm? 

A. — Thev operated it in 1911 and 
1912. 

Q. — When was that contract made? 

A. — It was made in the fall of 1910. 
That was a share contract 

Q. — What was the result of the first 
year's operations? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — What was the result of the sec- 
ond year's operations? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — Well, you spoke about the pol- 
icy of concentrating the penitentiary 
manufacturing enterprises, what do 
you think of the policy of concen- 
trating the farms? 

A. — I think it should be done, and 
that we ought to get a little furthei 
north into a cotton country. 

Q. — What is the distance from here 
to the Shaw farm? 

A.— About 275 or 300 miles. 

Q. — Is it the general policy to have 
the penitentiary located close to the 
farms or away from the farms? 

A. — We could concentrate our forces 
better if the penitentiary was located 
close to the farms and it would be 
where we could see after them bet- 
ter. 

Q. — You spoke a while ago about 
taking every available man within the 
walls to the farms to harvest the cane 
crop. Does not that account for the 
losses to some extent within the 
walls? 

A. — Usually when we knew we 
were going to move them, some part 
of the men would be left to finish up 
the work so it did not affect them 
much. 

Q. — Was not the character of the 
work in the shops such as to unfit 
them for farm work? 

A. — Yes, sir; to some extent. 



Q. — How many men would you 
take away from the walls to work 
on the farms during the harvest 
time? 

A. — It takes about 104 men to 
operate the Clemens sugar mill, and 
about 60 men to operate the Har- 
lem mill. 

Q. — Usually these men were put 
to work in the mills? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Then when the men came back 
to the shops were they as efficient 
as they were when first taken away? 

A. — No, sir; it would take a few 
days to straighten them out. We 
tried to use a man where it would 
be the most advantage to the State. 
Along that line we did not have a 
Legislature that would appropriate 
money to us and we could not con- 
sider the feelings of the convict. I 
think it was our policy to treat them 
well enough. We fed them well and 
clothed them well. I think they 
should be well treated, but we ought 
to maintain good discipline and get 
a fair amount of labor. 

Q. — Explain to us about the $10,- 
000 compromise with Mr. Eldridge? 

A. — We sold the cane to Mr. El- 
dridge on a flat basis, $3 per ton, 
and the contract was Mr. Eldridge 
was to take the cane regardless of 
the test at the flat rate so long as 
it was a merchantable cane. The 
freeze caught the cane and Mr. El- 
dridge claimed he could not handle 
it, and he came up here the day we 
went out of office and recommended 
the amount due us be cut in two, 
and that was merely a compromise. 

Q. — What do you know about the 
mules that were sold? 

A. — We sold mules on various oc- 
casions. When we had a lot of old 
worn out mules on hand we tried to 
get something for them. 

Q. — What was the condition of 
the mules on. the farm when you 
went out of office? 

A. — Fairly good, considering the 
amount of mules we had. However, 
we had some mules that were not so 
good. 

Q. — What percentage of the muleB 
were unfit for service? 

A. — Very few. 

Q. — You don't know anything 
about the sale of mules after you 
went out of office? 

A. — No, sir. 



82 



Report and Findings of 



THURSDAY, MAY 1, 1913, AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Testimony of F. J. Huey. 

By Senator Robert L. Warren: 

Q. — Mr. Huey, state your name. 

A. — F. J. Huey. 

Q. — Where do you reside? 

A. — I reside in Houston. 

Q. — How old are you? 

A. — Thirty-eight years old. 

Q. — How long have you resided in 
Houston? 

A. — Practically thirty-three years. 

Q. — What is your business? 

A. — Public accountant. 

Q. — State to the committee your 
experience in reference to auditing 
the different institutions of the State 
of Texas. 

A. — Well, I have been engaged 
about two years — not continuously 
however — but in different parts of 
the State, and I have checked up the 
Fish & Oyster Commission, Secre- 
tary of State's office, Deaf and Dumb 
Asylum, Insane Asylum at Austin, 
Insane Asylum at Terrell, Epileptic 
Asylum, Agricultural and Mechanical 
College, Prairie View Normal and 
some others, I think. 

Q. — How many times have you 
checked the penitentiary system? 

A. — Three times. 

Q. — When did you check it the 
first time? 

A. — January, 1911. 

Q. — When did you check it the 
second time? 

A. — May, 1912. 

Q. — And the third time? 

A. — The last time it was Decem- 
ber 31, 1912, which included all the 
business of 1912. 

Q. — We have before us your last 
report, together with former re- 
ports, and wish to take up the fea- 
ture of your last report, which you 
have heard discussed, and desire to 
ask you in the first place where you 
got the liability capital? 

A. — That appeared 'on the books 
when I first started. 

Q. — Did you check back to ascer- 
tain how the item first arose? 

A. — I did not, but took same as 
a capital basis. 

Q. — That does not represent any 
verifications on your part? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You understand it consists of 
aggregates of all the appropriations? 

A. — Yes, sir; but it may be that 
it does not represent the entire ap- 



propriation, but the surplus should 
represent the earnings and cash ap- 
propriations by the State. 

Q. — State, without reference to 
anything in your report, the prin- 
cipal cause of depletion. 

A. — My idea, the loss is mainly 
on account of the freeze in 1911; 
the stubble was damaged very seri- 
ously, and it made less in 1912 than 
it did in 1911. I think this the larg- 
est part of the loss. 

Q. — Mr. Huey, how much time did 
you spend on the farm? 

A. — I was not on the farms any 
at all; only at Rusk and Huntsville. 

Q. — Did you ever check the Comp- 
troller's account with reference to 
the penitentiary system? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — For instance, you take a 
monthly statement of this Prison 
Commission sent to the Governor — 
an item on that report, you under- 
stand- — passes through the Comp- 
troller's office, and he issues vouch- 
er? 

A. — -Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you satisfactorily check 
the account unless you check the 
Comptroller's office in regard to the 
penitentiary. 

A. — Yes, sir; if it goes on file in 
this office. 

Q. — Suppose now, how would you 
as an accountant, check $1000 for 
expenditures? 

A. — When the voucher is returned 
it is turned in as credits, and charged 
to his account. 

Q. — Did you make an effort in ren- 
dering this audit to check that? 

A. — Yes, sir. I did see that it was 
disbursed properly through this of- 
fice. 

Q. — Suppose in the discharge of a 
convict there are certain items of 
railroad fare, and also additional 
amount given to the convict of $5 
per diem, transportation and suit of 
clothes — what does the Comptroller's 
office show on that? Now, did you 
make a check of those things? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You did not show in your 
accounting you checked the last two 
months I asked you about? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Mr. Huey, your property ac- 
counts in your January statement is 
$3,876,161.49, and on page 15 of 
your report you go into detail to 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



83 



show the book value of property ac- 
counts. How do you arrive at that? 

A. — I simply took the charges and 
credits that had been made of dif- 
ferent accounts during the year. 

Q. — You did not act as appraiser 
in this matter, but simply as an ac- 
countant? 

A. — Yes, sir. I only took their in- 
ventories. 

Q. — Also with reference to the 
items shown on the same page of 
$428,140.84, additions for 1912. you 
mply accept the book entries? 

A. — I did in the sense they made 
disposition of same. 

Q. — How did you get that? For 
instance, take the $92,747.62 which 
was shown as additions to the Clem- 
ens farm property, where did you 
find it? 

A. — It comes from the journal. 

Q. — What kind of journal was 
kept? 

A. — It is kept in ledger form, and 
covers all the farms in detail. All 
the operations are carried in sepa- 
rate books. 

Q. — Now, as I understand it you 
take the Clements farm and have 
debits of a certain amount and cred- 
its of a certain amount; that is, the 
operations are not on this account? 

A. — No, sir; but really that book 
s not a ledger, but a stock book. 

Q.— What did you have to bal- 
ance the ledger? 

A. — You have the entries to bal- 
ance it up. 

Q. — For instance, the $92,747.62 
I asked you about would be a debit 
entry and would stand as an open 
account? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Does the ledger show items 
for these amounts? , 

A. — -Yes, sir; shows what it was 
spent for. 

Q. — Does the ledger show anything 
about labor? 

A. — There have been entries made 
charging team hire, etc. 

Q. — Was that money paid for 
State teams for improvement pur- 
poses? 

A. — Of course, the operating ac- 
count had to get credit for this 
amount. 

Q. — Was that all on one ledger? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.— The $318,235 with additions 
for 1912 of $27,762.75, you put this 
on the same ledger this way? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Q. — Is a portion of that $27,- 
7 62.7 5 for convict labor? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What are the figures made 
per day for convict labor? 

A. — It is $1.10. 

Q. — Does that figure control for 
all convict labor except on farms? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And the credit goes to the 
convict's labor account? 

A. — General account. 

Q. — Mr. Huey, in your investiga- 
tion of Bills Receivable and Ac- 
counts Receivable of the peniten- 
tiary system, the Committee notices 
you specify some as being doubtful 
and some as being considered safe. 
How did you arrive at that? 

A. — Well, the bookkeeper, Mr. 

I Barton and myself went over that, 

and they keep up pretty well with 

the accounts that are good and those 

that are not good. 

Q. — Where did you get those ac- 
counts? 

A. — Off the individual ledger. 

Q. — Is that all in one ledger? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Where did you get the Bills 
Receivable? 

A. — On the same ledger. 

Q. — The same ledger that con- 
tains the Accounts Receivable? 

A. — The same general ledger. 

Q. — Now, as to the Bills Payable 
and Accounts Payable, what account 
is kept of them? That is, are they 
all in one ledger? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What record is kept of Bills 
Payable, when due and the rate of 
interest? Does it show for what it 
is given? 

A. — The number of the invoice 
will show that, but the ledger will 
not. 

Q. — Mr. Huey, did you check in 
your last audit the details for dis- 
bursements of the system? 

A. — Thoroughly. I went over 
them very thoroughly. 

Q. — Mr. Huey, did you make any 
effort to classify the disbursements 
of the prison system, and did you 
make any effort to classify provision 
disbursements? 

A. — That was all done. 

Q. — Have you anything in the 
way of data that will give us a way 
of classifying? 

A. — Well, yes, sir. 

Q. — Where is the interest account 
carried, and through what fund, or 



84 



Report and Findings of 



any interest charged against the pris- 
on system? 

A. — It is charged to the interest 
account. 

Q. — Do you mean to say that it 
was paid through the general ex- 
pense fund? 

A. — Yes, sir, and it is the proper 
place for it. For instance, if they 
borrow $100,000 and buy a certain 
amount of stuff and sent it in here, 
it does not apply to any particular 
place or farm. 

Q. — In reference to the property 
accounts and valuations, how do you 
get the valuations? 

A. — I take it from the inventory 
of January 20. The records show 
these farms were raised in value 
some years ago, and some of them 
have more than doubled in value. 

Q. — Relative to the betterments 
here, are you able to tell the Com- 
mittee how that was done and how? 

A. — I don't think it has not been 
done in the past two years. I think 
you will not find any surplus ac- 
count made on the report. I don't 
know that to be a fact, but surmise 
it to be a fact. 

Q. — You are not able to tell the 
Committee how it was done and in 
what ways? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — In your audit beginning in 
1910 did you go behind the figures 
on that date in the inventory identi- 
fied here yesterday on which your 
first audit was made and based? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Senator Warren: 

Q. — I want to ask you relative to 
the manufacturing industries. You 
show two items at a loss — the black- 
smith and shoe shop, and you show 
four other items at a profit. How 
did you arrive at these figures? 

A. — Prom the books down stairs. 

Q. — Do they debit and credit the 
convicts' labor? 
. A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What do they figure that la- 
bor at? 

A. — At $1 per day for those in 
the shops and 50 cents for those on 
the farms. 

Q. — Did you check the books kept 
in the warden's office relative to 
convict labor? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Now, then, we will take up 
a few items in profit and loss, main- 
tenance and labor and general ex- 



penses. The first thing you show 
is hospitals and the next thing is 
expense, $66,190.32; supplies, $45,- 
2 90.61; power, wages of guards, etc., 
of the penitentiary. 

A. — Each farm carries its own 
guard salary. 

Q. — And the next questions the 
$45,290.60 for supplies? 

A. — That is at Huntsville, and not 
Rusk. 

Q. — For power, $23,680.14? 

A. — That is for operations at 
Huntsville, such as fuel, etc. It is 
just in the general account. 

Q. — Is there anything in your 
method of accounting which will en- 
able you to determine what power 
costs? 

A. — Well, I don't know if there 
is a way they can tell. 

Q. — Do you think you, as an ac- 
countant, you could go through the 
records and tell us what power costs? 

A. — No, sir; I do not think so. 

Q. — Mr. Huey, will you take that 
page under head of "General Ex- 
pense" and tell where each arises, 
rating them off? 

(Report of March 31, 1913, is 
handed to Huey.) 

A. — Well, the "Transportation" is 
for conveyance, "Conveying new 
convicts" is in coming in and going 
out, "Recapture" is for recapturing. 
The $21,791.27 is for "Discharges." 
"Interest and Discount" is for fu- 
ture interest on notes and open ac- 
counts, taxes, but it does not in- 
clude land notes. "Forage" is 
$8,133.12. The "State Railroad 
pay roll" is $1707.30. "The finan- 
cial agent's office," Mr. Tittle's 
clerk's expense in connection with 
his office. The "Farm Commission- 
er's office" is Mr. Brahan's; and sal- 
aries, stationery and stuff of that 
kind is charged also. "Chairman's 
office" is Mr. Cabell's office. "Sec- 
retary's office" is the same thing. 
"Criminal Records office" is $4981.99 
and is for salary expenses. "Pa- 
roles" and "General Salary and Ex- 
pense" covers the entire system — 
none in particular. "Convicts' per 
diem" is 10 cents per day that has 
been accrued. 

Q. — The $277,772.68 and $142,- 
458.65, previous to that time, how 
much of that $430,000 does your 
Profit and Loss account show it re- 
ceived credit for? 

A. — Well, the labor accounts 
would not, be properly credited to 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



85 



either one of those accounts. Labor 
should be credited to the prison ac- 
count and the expense of operating 
the prison charged against that. 

Q. — What credits are practically 
due to that account? 

A. — None. 

Q. — How much of this $430,000 
shown in those items applied to the 
entire system in your debit? 

A. — Well, practically everything. 

Q. — Now, Mr. Huey, that $430,- 
000 we are inquiring about, how 
would you advise the State of Texas 
to keep their records in regard to 
this charge? How would you pro- 
rate it — according to convicts, or 
how? 

A. — I do not believe anything 
would be gained by that. 

Q. — Would it not be this gain; 
that the people of Texas would be 
able to discover the great leak in 
the penitentiary system? 

A. — They might, and they might 
not. Suppose one farm had a bad 
crop and another had a good one, 
it would affect one farm and not af- 
fect the other farm. 

Q. — Take for instance the Shaw 
farm has lost $106,000, how much 
of the $430,000 in addition to the 
$106,000 already charged against it 
should be shown? 

A. — That would be the proper 
way to do it. 

Q. — Could you tell this Commit- 
tee what system can be devised that 
would rectify this matter? 

A. — You could have a separate 
general expense account and have 
it charged to each individual account 
in each department, and it" would 
be just to all departments. 

Q. — In most lines of business you ! 
will find they have an individual ac- 
count, and it is not charged to any 
department? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I also asked you in regard to 
the cost of per diem to convicts. Is 
there any way by examination of 
our records and going through our 
operations to discover what it cost 
the State of Texas per capita per 
annum, or any way? 

A. — It has cost us $1.54 per day 
for each convict, besides what he 
earns. 

Q. — The convict's labor; is not 
that also, and have not things been 
charged to operations that should 
have been charged to improvements 



— that is, things that should not 
have been charged to the operations? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think they have. 
They have had a fire and the im- 
provements have been charged to the 
operations. 

Q. — Enough to change the aggre- 
gate very materially? 

A. — Somewhat. 

Q. — How much? 

A. — I don't know how much. 
There has been lots of work at Rusk 
in the last two years. 

Q. — Was there very much done in 
1912? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — That was as per the item 
"Convict Labor?" 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, Mr. Huey, continuing 
the inquiry we are engaged in, from 
the last paragraph of your report 
you state that you "strongly recom- 
ment that a complete system of ac- 
counting be installed and someone 
competent to carry it out be placed 
in charge of the accounting depart- 
ment." Will you elaborate? 

A. — Well, my idea would be the 
accounting department should be 
advised of everything going on. 

Q. — You mean here at Hunts- 
ville? 

A. — Yes, sir; and furnished with 
information to keep the books in 
proper shape, and I would suggest 
that an auditor be placed in charge 
of Huntsville to be over the men to 
see that it goes through in a busi- 
ness-like manner, and you would 
have to establish a store at each 
place. 

Q. — Would it be possible with sncn 
a system of that character to keep ac- 
count of all the things asked you 
about? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is your estimate of the 
additional expense. 

A. — It would not cost as much that 
way as it does now, for you could get 
convicts to help, and you could take 
your classifications gotten up in the 
proper way and you could get fairly 
good men to do it, but naturally 
would have to have a good man in the 
office to do this, and it would take 
very little more books to do this, and 
be much cheaper in the long run. 

Q. — Have you any recommendation 
to make in reference to the system of 
reporting? 

A. — I think under the present sys- 
tem reports come now to each indi- 



86 



Report and Findings of 



vidual commissioner. They ought to 
come through one head, and let them 
be distributed to where they belong. 
I think the one man proposition is a 
good one, with the commissioners to 
direct him. I also think the auditor 
ought to be appointed by this com- 
mission, and he should report to the 
Commission, and have an assistant 
under him to do the buying and sell- 
ing. 

Q. — Do you believe under the pres- 
ent prison system generally you have 
more men than you need? 

A. — I don't believe you have more 
men than you need. 

Q. — Do you think the fault is with 
the employes or with the system? 

A. — I think it is due to the system 
under which it is operated. 

Q. — Now supposing you are correct, 
if you would change the present sys- 
tem, what other changes of account- 
ing would you recommend to this 
committee? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — Would you make any change in 
the manner of purchasing? 

A. — I don't know that I would. 
The purchasing should be made right 
here. 

Q. — You think it should be made 
from Huntsville? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think there is anything 
in regard to the method? 

A. — No, sir; the method is just as 
good as anybody's. 

Q. — Is it not a fact that lack of 
comoetition has cost the State lots of 
money this year? 

A. — Yes, I think it has. 

Q. — Can you mention to the com- 
mittee any particular accounts that 
would lead you to that conviction? 

A. — They have been charged 8 per 
cent and 6 per cent on some things 
going on two years. Of course, when 
a man sells you something on long 
time he naturally charges more for it. 

Q. — That has kept down competition 
for the last year? 

A. — I think so. 

Q. — On the question of selling our 
products, have you any recommenda- 
tions to make as to the revision? 

A. — I think a re-adjustment would 
take care of that, and a new system 
would cover it entirely. That is one 
of the things that would come in for 
the system. However, I think we have 
handled that well enough here, and 
you will find it has all been accounted 
for in detail. 



Q. — Did the cotton factory burn? 

A. — Yes, sir; it burned in December, 
1911. 

Q. — I notice in that monthly report, 
or rather the expenditures report, the 
number of bales of cotton bought by 
the system, at the very beginning of 
the administration. Can you explain 
why this was done? 

A. — It was for the factory in the 
penitentiary. 

Q. — Do you know whether or not 
they had any on hand when the pres- 
ent Commission went into office? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — They sold it and bought it as 
it was needed? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did they buy a low quality? 

A. — I don't know. (By Mr. Cabell: 
ff or the benefit of the Committee 1 
would like to state that the old ma- 
chinery required a good staple of cot- 
ton, but afterwards with the new ma- 
chinery we could use an inferior grade 
of cotton.) . 

By Lieutenant Governor Will H. 
Mayes : 

Q. — Would you write out for the 
benefit of this Committee, detailing a 
comprehensive statement, your views 
for any changes in this system? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Senator Robert L. Warren: 

Q. — Mr. Huey, I have one or two 
further questions. You speak of put- 
ting a system in charge of a general 
manager. What in your judgment 
could a man of that character be got- 
ten for? 

A.— About $10,000.00 per year to get 
the right man. $7,500.00 to $10,000.00 
a year. 

Q. — The next question I will ask you 
as a, business man is should he be ap- 
pointed or elected? 

A. — I think he should be amooiute" 1 . 

O .— To hold the office for what length 
of time? 

A. — I think permanently. 

Q. — If you owned the penitentiary 
system, and if you had to have a ma* 1 
of that kind, what authority would 
you give him? 

A. — I would let him employ ever T 
man in the system, except the auditor 
and let the auditor hire every man i" 
his system with his approval, and you 
would then have a check on every man 
in the system. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Mr. Huey, I believe you stated 
that you found certain classes of items 
that have been carried one year per- 
haps in one account, and the next year 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



87 



in another account. When you found 
those discrepancies, did you change 
them in your audit? 

A. — No, sir. Well, in some instances 
T did and others I did not. 

Q. — Then your audit would not rep- 
resent your individual belief as to the 
correctness in which a certain charge 
or credit account may apper? 

A. — It might not in some general 
account. 

Q. — Take the item of General Im- 
provements, do you think the audit 
you have made there represents all 
the credits? 

A. — I doubt it very seriously if it 
does on account of the method of dis- 
tribution of supplies. Some things 
there may be no record of, and I think 
there should be an appraisal of this 
property. 

Q. — Would you be disposed to haz- 
ard an estimate of the amount? 

A. — No, sir; I would not. There 
have been some things done the opera- 
tions have not gotten credit for. 

Q. — In making your audit of the 
value of the prison properties, did you 
accept statements from anyone other 
than those contained in the books as 
to the values of the farms, etc.? 

A. — Only as to the books. 

Q. — You have been auditor for 
the books for three years? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — There are certain items that 
show depreciations, and some gain? 

A. — The depreciations are fire 
losses. I believe one item is in re- 
gard to depreciation on sugar. I 
don't think it would amount to very 
much. I don't recall a credit made 
to one of the sugar houses. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the pro- 
visions of the law existing prior to 
the first audit you made? 

A. — No, sir; I am not, but in a 
general way i was. 

Q. — You were familiar with the 
general method of operating the 
prison system prior to 1910? 

A. — Yes, sir; I was in a general 
way. 

Q. — Now, Mr. Huey, would you be 
disposed to make a statement, as 
accountant, regarding the increased 
expense of operating this system be- 
cause of the provisions in the pres- 
ent law? 

A. — Well, I would judge from what 
I have seen of it, that there has been 
an extra expense of * 2 5 0,0 00 outside 
loss by putting on this system in the 
last two years. 



Q. — Is that exclusive of the per 
diem and lost time? 

A. — That included the per diem 
and the overtime, but does not in- 
clude loss of time. Now, if they had 
been operating under the old laws, 
I don't believe they would be out a 
cent today with all the bad crops, and 
if the freezB had not come on, I 
know they would have $500,000 in 
cash they have not got now. 

Q. — Have you gone into the de- 
tails of the accounting of the differ- 
ent manufacturing departments? 

A. — I was over all of them in a 
general way. 

Q. — Has your investigation led you 
to any definite conclusion? 

A. — Yes, sir. I think it could b-3 
revised as to general expenses, and 
their pro rate of it, and I think it 
could be gotten out at least to deter- 
mine more definitely the profit and 
loss. 

Q. — I believe you stated you had 
gone over the system of accounting 
with Mr. Moore? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.^Do you understand Mr. Moore 
is in accordance with your views? 

A. — Yes, sir- 

Q. — Do you think he has sufficient 
authority to install your system? 

A. — I don't know that he has. 

Q. — In the course of your work,, 
did you visit Rusk? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Senator Robert L. Warren: 

Q. — Referring to the question of 
the management of the prison sys- 
tem, suppose the prison system 
should be consolidated, what saving 
would that be to the State of Texas? 

A.- -I think there would be a good 
many items. I think the overhead 
expense at Rusk would be abolished, 
and you could take care of more 
men inside the walls, at least more 
than you are now doing. 

Q. — Do you think the pay roll here 
would take care of Rusk? 

A. — It is simply a question of 
maintenance to the men. I don't 
think there would be any more ex- 
pense attached to it. 

Q. — Tt would also be a question of 
transportation? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Also a question of power. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — It would also be a question of 
constant betterments? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Report and Findings of 



By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — You stated, I believe that the 
total amount of interest was $36,000? 

A. — That was the amount accrued 
on December 31 that we took into 
account. 

Q. — Did you mean to say that the 
interest, and I presume you include 
the additional cost on account of the 
method of making purchases, repre- 
sented an unnecessary cost to the 
•system of approximately $100,000 
per year? 

A. — I don't say it has been that 
much in a year. It would depend 
entir ,ly on the amount they owe. 

Q.--The interest paid and the 
amount that might have been saved 
by reason of cash purchases would 
not in your judgment represent a 
saving to the system of $100,000? 

A. — I think so. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — I am not asking you to state 
whether or not in your investigation 
the past three years you have found 
evidence of any irregularities that 
should have been called to the atten- 
tion of the Committee, but would you 
be willing to send a confidential let- 
ter to me stating whether or not you 
have discovered any irregularities 
that should be brought to our atten- 
tion, and if so, detail those irregu- 
larities? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I am not presuming that you 
have, but will appreciate a letter 
from you, if you have. 

A.- — If I had, the Commissioners 
would have known it before now. In 
going over stuff I have found it has 
been done squarely and honestly. 
Contracts and everything found of 
every nature. 

By Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — From your audits, and famili- 
arity with other State departments, 
state to this Committee whether or 
not the penitentiary system is kept 
and handled as well as any other 
state department. 

A. — Well, they are, I think. The 
provisions are better for taking care 
of things than those in the majority 
of the State. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Is the system of bookkeeping 
for the penitentiary system as good, 
or better, in other State depart- 
ments? 

A. — I think as a whole it is better. 

Q. — Now, in checking up your 



audits, have you ever discovered any 
discrepancies in the office? 

A. — I have found things to be 
checked up very carefully in this 
office. Outside of very few mistakes, 
which we adjusted, no mistakes have 
been audited, and they have every 
dollar in the cash account. 

Q. — You also made an audit of the 
warden's office of the Huntsville 
prison for 1912? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You established a system cf 
bookkeeping there, and rechecked 
that again for 1911? 

A. — Things were in very good 
shape, but in 1910 we found discre- 
pancies, but it was discovered before 
it was checked up or audited. They 
had a convict in there who was 
crooked, but he was caught right off. 

Q. — Caught before the audit was 
made? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — After your investigation of the 
books of this system, would you care 
to make any recommendation of the 
extent to which convicts might be em- 
ployed in the clerical accounting de- 
partments of the system? 

A. — Yes, sir. I would make that 
recommendation for the character of 
work they could do. 

Q.— Would you mind outlining in 
brief some of the duties you think 
they might be entrusted with? 

A. — They might keep the auxiliary 
books in the office, and they could 
be of assistance to the farms in keep- 
ing books; keeping time, etc. 

Q. — And in a system like this are 
not there a number of things in which 
they could be profitably employed? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And at the same time fitting 
them for something useful in the 
future? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, Mr. Huey, in making 
your suggestions, it would be very 
desirable that you indicate to the 
Committee an outline of the duties 
that might be discharged by the con- 
victs? 

A. — Mr. Moore has a good idea of 
this, and I would like you to ques- 
tion him in regard to it. 

By Senator Robert L. Warren: 

Q. — Looking at page 83 of the 
(Jlemens Sugar .,iouse account I no- 
tice you have the inventory on the 
debit side. $102,878.21, and you 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



89 



show no inventory at the end of the 
year. 

A. — At the beginning of the year 
I don't show any, but at the ending 
I do. 

Q. — Was there nothing on hand at 
the beginning of the year? 

A. — I don't think so unless it was 
included in the inventory of the 
farm.. 

Mr. Brahan makes statement: 

When we took over the farm on 
which the sugar mills were, Mr. Huey 
recommended that we separate the 
farm from the sugar mill, and that 
was done some time during the year, 
and the two industries should not 
i*ave been run together. 

Q. — Now, Mr. Huey, looking at 
page 7 3 you have there an inventory 
for the beginning of the year, and 
ncne for the ending of the year? 

A. — That was abolished, and there 
was no inventory on file. I made 
a comment in my reuort of this. 
The inventories of the contract forces 
of Adams Bros., W. L. Steele, Hen- 
derson & Thomplins and the Sugar 
Land Railroad Company were not 
recorded, and consequently do nor 
show the exact results. Several of 
the forces were abandoned and 
shipped off to other farms, and they 
did not get in there. 



THURSDAY, MAY 1, 1913, AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Testimony by John M. Moore. 

By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 

Q. — State your name to the ste- 
nographer. 

A. — John M. Moore. 

Q. — How long have you been 
auditor of the penitentiary? 

A. — On the first of March, the 
present year. 

Q. — You have, of course, been 
auditing all books and accounts? 

A. — Yes, sir; but have not traced 
any back accounts. 

Q. — When did that audit begin? 

A. — It began on the first of March. 
There was, however, presented to 
me a number of claims which ar- 
rived during the month of February. 

Q. — These claims had not been 
presented before that? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What was the character of 
those claims? 

A. — They were small matters. 
Different kinds. Accounts against 



the penitentiary system, and I be- 
lieve there was an account for some 
beef cattle and some horses last year 
which was presented this year 
against the penitentiary system. 

Q. — In investigating these ac- 
counts, what did you find out? 

A. — I could find nothing more than 
an account there which the Commis- 
sion had approved, they being cogni- 
zant with the transaction. 

Q. — What date were they ap- 
proved? 

A. — I don't remember. 

Q. — Do you remember what the 
amount of those accounts were? 

A. — No, sir; I don't know; but 
the minutes will show. 

Q. — Were they enumerated? 

A. — No, they were not, but they 
came in since that time. 

Q. — They were not any part of 
the indebtedness of the outstanding 
indebtedness of the penitentiary 
since you came into office? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many accounts come into 
your notice against the penitentiary 
system that were not included in 
accounts that go to make up the 
debts against the penitentiary sys- 
tem as reported by the Legislature? 

A. — I don't any serious amount 
of them. 

(Mr. Tittle at this time entered 
and made this statement: That the 
beef cattle referred to by Mr. Moore 
were bought the 1st of October, 1911, 
and that they were the ones referred 
to by Mr. Moore.) 

The total amount of this trans- 
action was $1710, and there is prob- 
ably as much as $1800 that belongs 
to last year that will appear in this 
year's operations. 

Q. — There was nothing prior to 
that against the penitentiary system? 

A. — Nothing that I know of. 

Q. — From the books you have ex- 
amined from the time you began as 
auditor of the penitentiary system, 
has the indebtedness increased or 
diminished, not taking into consid- 
eration the appropriations? 

A. — Well, I don't know. 

Q. — What has comprised the ac- 
counts that has decreased — salary 
and current expenses? 

A. — Ordinary expenses just like 
last year's. 

Q. — Are you prepared to make any 
suggestion as to any part, or all 
the operating expenses of the system 



90 



Report and Findings of 



that could be reduced in anywise 
without injuring the system? 

A. — In the first place, I would 
make a slight change in the pur- 
chasing and selling. They are very 
good now, yet I would make some 
slight changes, and would make 
some changes in operations in some 
departments, and I would reconstruct 
the method of handling the supplies 
for the commissary. I would re- 
construct quite a number of things, 
also the physical properties differ- 
ently. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
classes of groceries and supplies, 
and if so, state to the Committee 
whether or not we are paying an ex- 
travagant price for these supplies, 
and for what reason? 

A. — There are a few articles I am 
not familiar with, but prior to the 
last month prices were a little strong, 
but it was not occasioned by mis- 
management of the prison system, 
but on account of the present condi- 
tion. For illustration, I live near 
these farms. Last winter the high- 
est price I paid for potatoes was 85 
cents per bushel, and the prison paid 
about $1. I paid cash, and they 
bought on credit. I bought them, 
you understand, one sack at a time. 

Q. — In your judgment did the 
Prison Commissioners use all dilli- 
gence in purchasing supplies? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You don't charge any of the 
mismanagement or neglect of duty 
to any of the Prison Commissioners? 

A. — No, sir. I believe that the 
provisions will compare favorably 
with the State's purchases. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
State's purchases? 

A. — No, sir; not necessarily. 

Q. — How about material bought 
for construction purposes? Is it 
bought favorably? 

A. — Yes, sir; but there has been 
no machinery bought since I came 
into office. I think the machinery 
bought before I came into office was 
extremely well purchased. 

Q. — A great deal of this machinery 
was purchased on credit? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you say whether or not 
the fact that this machinery was pur- 
chased on credit the penitentiary 
system would have to pay more for 
it than they would have if they 
bought for cash? 

A. — The fact we are running on 



credit basis is not responsible for 
any great amount, only on supplies. 

Q. — Do you think the system is 
purchasing its fuel at a reasonable 
price? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are they forced to use lig- 
nite? 

A. — Yes, sir; on account of get- 
ting time on fuel. 

Q. — Does it come under your ob- 
servation that it is a reasonable fuel 
for the penitentiary? 

A. — No, sir; I think not at the 
present price. Lignite is costing us 
at Rusk $1.72 delivered, at the pres- 
ent time. 

Q. — How does that compare with 
bituminous coal, fair quality, and 
taking into consideration the en- 
ergy? 

A. — The lignite is not as cheap at 
$1.72 as the McAllister nut and 
slack at $4. 

Q. — About how much can it be de- 
livered here? 

A. — About $3.25. This is merely 
an estimate. McAllister nut and 
slack would be cheaper according to 
my statement, and that likewise 
agrees with Mr. Nash, from personal 
conversation with him. 

Q. — Now, as to the financial trans- 
actions since you have been here. 
Are we not passing through a period 
of the year when expenses run up 
very heavy and the income is very 
slack? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Of course, on the farm we 
understand that this is -due to 
making the crop, and the time has 
not yet arrived for returns on the 
crop. Does that necessarily apply 
to the manufacturing institutions? 

A. — Yes, sir. First, we will take 
the wagon shop. At the present time 
we are selling no wagons; that is, 
in the ordinary way of selling. You 
understand the farming trade use 
wagons during June and July, as 
it is the season for marketing, and 
not now, and I believe the Commis- 
sion has made an effort with the 
foreman of the factory in order to 
move them away and lessen the risk 
of a fire, and get the goods out in 
preference to holding them until 
July or August. You take the man- 
ufacture of furniture. Furniture is 
a luxury. While the cheaper fur- 
niture is a necessity, yet the most 
of it generally is a luxury, and it is 
generally the fall trade that uses 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



91 



that particular stuff, and that, you 
can see, is practically all we have to 
market at the present time. 

Q. — Are any of the products of 
the prisoners under your observation 
sold to the Commissioners? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In other words, is there any 
partiality shown to anyone purchas- 
ing State products? 

A. — None; absolutely none. 

Q. — Now, in reference to the Ram- 
sey farm. I would like to have an 
insight as to the railroad, and wish 
you would explain to the Commit- 
tee what you know of this transac- 
tion. 

A. — Well, what I know is very lit- 
tle more than anvone else. It was 
my understanding that at the time 
this land was purchased induce- 
ments for the sale was held out to 
the penitentiary system that there 
would be a railroad there. The op- \ 
tion on the land, as I understand 
it, was held at some $6 per acre, or 
about that. 

Q. — Who held that option? 

A. — Mr. Blakely, and the sale was 
made on a basis of approximately the 
round figures cf $15 peT acre. 

Q. — Who executed the deed to 
that property? 

A. — I understand, according to 
Herring yesterdav, that it was a 
lady. 

Q. — You don't know whether the 
State bought direct from Mrs. Kem- 
per or someone else? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you know how long these 
parties held an option on the land 
before same was sold to the State? 

A. — I am infcrired it was an old 
option ; about two years old. 

O. — Do you know of any default 
of that contract to build the railroad 
through that property, and just how ; 
much the parties paid to the State? 

A. — Mr. Gils says $15,000, and j 
Mr. Herring says the same. 

Q. — That was the security took to 
guarantee the completion of the $70,- 
000 contract? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know if the original 
contract is available? 

A. — No, sir; I do not. Mr. Ben 
E. Cabell savs the original contract 
is in the office. 

Q. — Did the State pay more for 
:he land than the land was worth, 



based on the contract of the rail- 
road being built? 

A. — I would say that the land has 
advanced in value in that immediate 
locality to 100 per cent to 200 per 
cent. 

Q. — Are you familiar with this 
land? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is it unimproved? 

A.- — Yes, sir; it would cost about 
S30 to clear it. 

Q. — Is the other land for $35 or 
$40 cleared? 

A. — 120 acres, we think, is 
cleared, and 1112 acres on the Jack- 
son place, and we are now farming 
it on a lease. 

Q. — What would you say it cost 
the State to build this railroad? 

A. — Some $47,000 to $49,000, 
without convict labor. 

Q. — Do you know what the State 
received for this road when it was 
sold? 

A. — It received $32,500, accord- 
ing to Mr. Gils and Mr. Herring's 
statement. 

Q. — That was paid for? 

A. — I understand so. 

Q. — Who bought it? 

A. — Mr. Eldridge. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — Mr. Moore, you made some 
criticisms in the methods of hand- 
ling the commissary supplies? 

A. — Yes, sir. In the first place 
the room, as prepared by the Prison 
Commissioners, is not sufficient for 
the proper handling, and are in 
neel of a new commissary so as to 
keep quantities without waste. They 
are without funds and need other 
things; and in the next place I think 
there could be a much more thor- 
ough system of passing the things 
out. For instance, the statement of 
the Rusk prison showing the meat 
consumed in that place is 15 7-10 
ner cent over and above what the 
United States Army uses to main- 
tain its men, but there is a waste 
of which probably 2 per cent could 
be accounted for in shrinkage from 
the time it is received to the time 
it is dispensed. I thought probably 
it was the way the convicts trim- 
rae 7 the meat for cooking. As a 
matter of fact, they are making an 
effort to keep a check on that, but 
the law reads that every man must 
have all he wants to eat, and from 
the lack of proper facilities for the 
making of coffee, the consumption 



92 



Report and Findings of 



of coffee is 40 per cent more than 
the United States Army, and can be 
accounted for by reason of the fact 
that coffee is made in open pots, 
boiling for a good length of time 
on an open stove, and does not give 
them as good coffee and is inferior 
to that of the United States Army. 
It ought to be given to them hot. 
The Army has a coffee urn, holding 
all the substance in it. Now, 40 
per cent amounts to about eight 
pounds per day or $1.28, and that 
particular improvement would pay 
for itself. The bakery at that point 
is as good as the United States 
Army uses. The consumption of 
flour and meal is eight per cent under 
what the United States Army uses, 
and there is probably a loss of 15 
per cent in meat, which comes from 
the fact the steam cookery is not in 
working order, and this would result 
in a loss to the system. I think the 
basis on feeding these men should 
be established absolutely according 
to the United States Army rations, 
and it will reduce the expenses ma- 
terially. 

Q. — Now, does that wastefulness 
exist at all the farms? 

A. — I think so. 

Q. — What is the system of check- 
ing and accounting for the supplies 
handed out to the farms? 

A. — There is practically none; 
there is an opportunity for thefts, 
and I have no doubt but what some 
have occurred. 

Q. — Do you mean there is no sys- 
tem of checking or bookkeeping at 
the commissaries or stores? 

A. — I mean this: You go from 
Camp 3 to No. 1 for a lot of bacon. 
The commissary man at Camp No. 
1 is the head steward for all the 
camps; likewise bookkeeper, time- 
keeper, etc., and it is not fair to 
him to expect all the duties put on 
him. He would go down and put 
on that wagon so much meat, 
and billing it to Camp No. 3 
as so many pounds of meat, and if 
the Camp No. 3 does not weigh it 
and see how much is there, you 
can't tell what place it will wind up 
at that night. There should be a 
better way of checking from each 
place, and a receipt should go back 
to every steward* showing every 
pound and piece as he passed it out. 
I don't mean it is in any way a 
great decrease, but from the exam- 
ination of the amount of that par- 



: ticular commodity consumed would 
J indicate it to me. I may be wrong, 
but think the system could be ma- 
terially improved. 

By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
Q. — Have you heard of any in- 
stances where bacon or supplies have 
gone out to individual people? 

A. — No, sir; I have nothing on 
which I could base a statement of 
that kind. The men ought to all 
be fed and fed in the proper way, 
but the facilities are not sufficient. 
We buy outmeal at a cost of 4 to 5 
cents per pound. We could buy 
steam cut oatmeal at an expense of 
2 to 3 cents per pound, and so on 
down the line. If we had the same 
equipment the United States Army 
has, we could feed as cheap as the 
United States Army. 

By Lieutenant Governor Will H. 
Mayes: 

Q. — Do the plantation managers 
get supplies from the farm commis- 
saries? 

A. — I could not answer this. How- 
ever, we give them their light, sal- 
ary and provisions for their imme- 
diate family, and have placed no 
limit on the supplies for their fam- 
ilies, as we do not think it is abused. 
At Huntsville and Rusk we do not 
allow the warden anything, or the 
assistant warden. 

Q. — Do you have any way of 
checking provisions? 

A. — No, sir; not at present; but 
we are working on this at the pres- 
ent time — just the last two months. 

Q. — Until two months ago you 
have not known what the supplies 
were that went to the plantations? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Anyone else get supplies from 
the commissaries? 

A. — Only the assistants. 

Q. — No limit placed on this? 

A. — No, sir; but we are trying to 
check everything like that now. The 
doctor gets his horse feed. 

Senator Warren interrogates Mr. 
Tittle: 

Q. — Are your employes allowed 
to eat in the prison if they want to? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.— Your contract with the war- 
den and assistant is a house and 
so much per month to live on? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What salary do the sergeants 
get? 

A. — The managers get $175; head 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



93 



assistants get $7 5, and the other as- 
sistants they have get $65. 

Q. — How many men have you em- 
ployed as assistants? 

A. — Sometimes ahout 200, and 
sometimes only 100. I think they 
are very poorly paid men, but the 
assistants are not paid as much as 
they should be. 

Q. — In employing your sergeants, 
do you take into consideration the 
man's qualifications as to handling 
convicts, and take into consideration 
his experience in running farms? 

A. (Brahan) — Well, every man I 
recommended for manager or assist- 
ant manager — well, I would not 
change any man we have got. 

Q. — You think all are competent 
men? 

A. (Brahan) — Yes, sir. We have 
four managers on the large farms, 
and they get $175 per month and a 
house to live in, and are allowed two 
servants. 

Q. — Are those servants convicts? 

A. (Brahan) — Yes, sir. It is im- 
possible to get free labor. 

Senator Warren interrogates Mr. 
Moore: 

Q. — Now, Mr. Moore, I see this 
deed of conveyance recites this partic- 
ular plantation was called the Shane- 
go plantation. Is that the Ramsey 
plantation ? 

A. — I guess so. I am not familiar 
with the transaction. 

Q. — This may not be the Ramsey 
farm? 

A. — I don't know. But think so. 

Q. — Do you know this deed is the 
deed conveying the Ramsey farm? 

Mr. Brahan answers: Yes, sir; that 
is it. 

Senator Warren interrogates Mr. 
Brahan: 

Q. — Do you know Mr. Brahan l}ow 
this note, was made up? 

A. — No, sir; not a thing in the 
world. I was not at that time con- 
nected with the State service. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
this contract? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — But you do know the railroad 
was not built by the parties in this 
transaction ? 

A. — That is my understanding. 

Q.— Who built this road ? 

A.— The* State built it. 

Q. — Do you know if the building of 



this road was a part of the considera- 
tion for what was paid for this land ° 

A. — I presume so. 

Q. — And in the liquidation damages 
they only paid the State $15,000, and 
it cost the State $47,000? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.— And it cost the State $47,000, 
not including convict labor? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you prepared to state what 
that land was worth at the time the 
State paid for it ? 

A. — No, sir; I am not. I am not 
acquainted with this transaction. 

Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
any land transaction to say they have 
been bought at a reasonable price? 

A. — I think this land was bought 
at a reasonable price. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
Lthe rest of the purchases? 

A. — No, sir. The only complaint I 
have heard is the State did not take 
sufficient security, or sufficient guar- 
antee for building the railroad, which 
| if they had done they would have 
: gained the value of the railroad con- 
j tract. 

Q. — Have you been over the farms 
of the penitentiary system since 
March last? 

A. — I have been on three of the 
farms. 

Q. — Would you say the farming 
operations are carried on diligently ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you able to state if the 
officers in charge of these farms are 
! attending to their duties ? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — It is your opinion the officers 
in charge of these farms are giving 
the State good service? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are there any instances where 
! you think they are not giving good 
service ? 

A. — No, sir. 

Mr. R. B. Humphreys interrogates 
Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — It has been suggested the 
Shenango Plantation Company just 
i had an option on this land, but I 
notice in the conveyance the state- 
! ment that the vendor binds itself to 
! protect the purchasers from out- 
j standing liens or incumbrances. Do 
: you know anything about that? 

A. — No, sir; I know nothing about 
that. 



94 



Report and Findings of 



Senator Warren interrogates Mr. 
Cabell: 

Q. — Do the Penitentiary Commis- 
sioners know if the title to this land 
is all right? 

A. — We don't know anything about 
that. 

Senator Warren resumes the inter- 
rogation of Mr. Moore: 

Q. — In your opinion, has there been 
enough competition in buying for the 
prison system? 

A. — It is a question as to who does 
the selling. Just to illustrate, in the 
May supplies, myself and the Pur- 
chasing Agent were looking over the 
bills, and we found one coffee man, 
who seemed to think we were not 
able to pay cash, and he refused to 
quote us because he was not able to 
carry the account. Now, if we had 
been in financial condition to have re- 
ceived competitive bids it would have 
saved us from 15 to 20 per -cent for 
cost of supplies. 

Q. — While it was true the peniten- 
tiary system did not have funds on 
hand, yet why should they charge us 
an additional price? 

A. — I could not say why, but I pre- 
sume they don't want the account. 

Q. — Those accounts are all drawing 
interest ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How much do they aggregate? 

A. — I could not tell you. 

Q. — Is it in your opinion the State 
could have saved $150,000 on that 
proposition ? 

A. — Quite likely. Just to illustrate, 
we will take the manufacturing busi- 
ness. Take for instance the construc- 
tion of a wagon. It has been neces- 
sary for these people to buy their 
felloes and spokes, etc., in mixed cars. 
That means this stuff has been con- 
densed at some point by the party 
offering it for sale. He had to add 
the freight and all the dealers profit 
and then the freight to Huntsville, 
while if the State had been able to 
have purchased that in straight cars 
they could have bought it at one 
profit. As to the iron used in wagons 
they are all practically bought in St. 
Louis from one concern. The irons 
themselves are mostly made in the 
penitentiary. I think the freight rate 
is about 12 cents a hundred on that 
class of freight. Nails and wire is 
10 cents per hundred, making 22 cents 



from Texas City. You see freight 
alone is quite an item. 

Q. — Mr. Moore, does the item of 
prison maintenance and general ex- 
penses you heard us going over which 
shows $430,000 charge for 1912, 
what per cent should be charged to 
Huntsville prison and on what basis? 

A. — I would arrive at it on a basis 
of population. 

Q. — If you adopted any rule, what 
would you adopt? 

A. — I would consider placing the 
prison commission in the attitude of 
being contractors with the different 
industries in which they would agree 
to furnish men with maintenance of 
$1 per day, as well as the per diem, 
making $1.10 per day, and credit back 
to expense and things of that sort 
and let that account make or lose as 
it might be on the face of it. If 
this should show a profit I would make 
an arbitrary charge charging back. 

Q. — Taking that as a basis, the 
farms would show an additional loss, 
would it not? 

A. — For the year 1912; yes, sir. 

Q. — What are you going to do with 
the general expenses that run about 
$430,000 a year? 

A. — The expenses would probably 
not take this particular route. 

Q. — A portion of them would be 
charged to the farms, would it not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — If you base it on that proposi- 
tion, then would not the farms have 
to assume the bulk of the expense ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, bringing the inquiry im- 
mediately to a close, I want to ask 
you this: You have heard the devel- 
opments as to the expense at Rusk 
in addition to the expense at Hunts- 
ville. Is Huntsville as expensive to 
the State as Rusk ? 

A. — No, sir; I think not. 

Q. — Should Huntsville be charged 
with that expense? 

A. — I understand Rusk has able- 
bodied men as a rule, while Huntsville 
has maintained insane men, and bur- 
dens of this kind thrown on them. 

Q. — The burden per capita, per 
diem, etc., at Rusk is $1.54, not taking 
into consideration any overhead 
charges, which would add about 50 
cents per day. 

A. — That expense is anomalous at 
Rusk. I base that on these grounds: 
we had a fire at Rusk, and being cog- 
nizant of the things bearing directly 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



95 



on that — well for instance: take the 
1910 valuation of the chapel, library 
and books, furniture and the fixtures 
and the chapel and books. It was 
invoiced from Campbell's administra- 
tion to Colquitt's administration at 
$3454. On January 1, 1913, I think 
it was invoiced at something like $12 
or $15, which shows a loss of opera- 
tion of something like $3450 from that 
particular thing. 

Q. — Was that charged to the opera- 
tion or property account? 

A. — That shows a loss at the Rusk 
prison for 1912. 

Q. — Does it show in the inventory 
of 1911? 

A. — It would be included in the 
maintenance and supplies, and if it 
is not included in that it snould oe 
included there as part of the prison 
expense for maintenance. That is 
identically the same furniture, some 
books and property delivered in 1910, 
$3450 and it is invoiced at practically 
nothing. 

Q. — State what that includes. 

A. — Books, furniture, etc., of the 
chapel, and the reading rooms. I 
found in there a boiler which I at- 
tempted to trace out, and my recollec- 
tion is that boiler was invoiced at 
$1200, and the following year at 
$1100, and the following year was 
taken and moved into the box factory 
and invoiced at $999.50. My idea it 
is not worth near so much. Now, 
that shows in the year 1910 and 1911 
a loss of $100, and on the following 
year shows a loss of $100.50, and it 
increased the valuation of the box 
factory, making a false valuation on 
the box factory, and you get two 
$100 items and have the same identi- 
cal boiler you have always had. You 
will find furthermore the laundry is 
carried in there. They enter it in 
there at the first of the year at $815, 
when it cost the State $894, showing 
a loss of $79, when you have a brand 
new laundry as valuable as it ever 
was, and probably more. There was 
last year the debris of the fire of the 
previous year at Rusk to be cleaned 
up, and I estimated it would cost 
$6000 to clean it up, and I charged 
that directly to the loss account. That 
shows it was against the operations, 
and the charge of $1.10 as applied 
uniformly to all the industries is not 
fair to some of them. While there 
is about 4000 prisoners, there are not 



over 3200 able-bodied men in the out- 
fit. There are old men, cripples and 
any number of them distributed 
through the system; mostly on the 
farms, and to charge anything for 
their time would be an injustice. 

Q. — Are they not worth 50 cents ? 

A. — There are fifteen men on the 
Ramsey farm that I want you to see. 
I would not pay the guard to watch 
them. Those men, if classified prop- 
erly and the right system put on 
checking them, they would be classi- 
fied as a charge on the system. 

Q. — While these men may not be 
worth anything, is it not true that 
those actually at work are worth 
more than the price charged, and 
would not this balance the charge 
against all the prisoners on the 
farms ? 

A. — The charge of so much per 
man per day is purely arbitrary. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — That charge was never made 
until last year. 

A. — No, sir; I understand not. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — You were elected as auditor of 
this system by whom? 

A. — Treasurer, Comptroller and 
Attorney General. 

Q. — This difference we have in the 
present administration of the peni- 
tentiary system, have you become 
sufficiently familiar with it to be able 
to suggest to this Committee the 
cause of any great part of the loss? 

A. — Partially to the law they 
operate under. I want to say to you 
the Commission has made mistakes, 
but their mistakes are no more than 
anyone might reasonably look for 
from any man who is an ordinary 
mortal. 

Q. — What mistakes have they 
made? 

A. — In the first place, I think when 
they took charge of the penitentiary 
system they adopted a rule that all 
the old employees would be retained 
during good behavior, and I think 
every man who is not thoroughly 
in accord should be discharged, and 
if they had immediately sought and 
placed in charge only men in sympa- 
thy with the law the results, I believe, 
would have been different. 

By Mr. Brahan: 

There has never been a time since 
we have been in the service that we 
have had enough guards, and I could 



96 



Report and Findings of 



use a lot of men now as guards, if I 
had then. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Are we to understand there are 
some employees who are not in sym- 
pathy with the management of the 
penitentiary system? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In your opinion, a sentiment 
among the employees that the law is 
wrong and that they want to prove 
it is wrong exists? 

A. — Yes sir; in their hearts, I be- 
lieve so. 

Q. — What further mistakes have 
they made? 

A. — I don't mean it is a fault of 
theirs, and that it has affected them 
in dollars and cents. 

Q. — In what way does political agi- 
tation cause trouble? 

A. — Simply because the convicts 
understand in the event Governor Col- 
quitt is not successful, the men who 
are not in sympathy with him will 
be pardoned. 

Q. — Who circulated this news, or 
how did it come to them? 

A. — I don't know, but politics has 
had a great effect on them, and I 
think it has caused a great deal of 
this trouble. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — You mean to say it had the 
effect of preventing the management 
frqm getting the effective work out 
of the convicts it should have got? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you account for the way 
rumors of this kind get out? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Has politics in any other way 
affected the Commissioners' work? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Nothing, only in that case ? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is there any favoritism shown 
on account of politics? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think so. 

Q. — You stated the commission had 
made mistakes. What other mistakes 
has the commission made? 

A. — I believe from a standpoint of 
economy it would have been better 
to have equipped various kitchens at 
the different camps. They are more 
or less old and worn out. 

Q. — What other particulars have 
the commissioners made mistakes? 

A. — Nothing that I can call to mind 
at the present time, and I don't feel 
inclined to criticise the commission. 



Q. — Another thing, you referred to 
the handling of the commissaries at 
the different camps. Is that one mis- 
take? 

A. — Yes, sir; and there should be a 
thorough system of accounting. 

Q. — Will you give us at your leisure 
in the next week or two a detailed 
statement of improvements that could 
be made in the penitentiary system? 

A. — I can do so now. In the mat- 
ter of handling your main commis- 
sary, supplies, maintenance, take for 
a basis the United States Army in 
handling the physical properties, 
handling the finances, take the rail- 
road accounting, and you have the 
problem solved. Those two systems 
are already worked out, and I be- 
lieve they will apply to the peniten- 
tiary system. 

Q. — We would like to have your 
ideas written out, as well as Mr. 
Huey's, so we could compare them. 
Have you any further suggestions 
to make to this committee of any 
kind? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Any further statement? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Mr. Moore, what effect do you 
think it would be as to the financial 
results of the management of the 
prison system if the prison system 
could be consolidated? Would there, 
in your judgment, be a saving to the 
State if the Rusk and Huntsville 
penitentiaries were consolidated? 

A. — If the Rusk penitentiary had 
never existed, according to any audit- 
or, there would have been a saving 
of $1,066,148.84, not including the 
errors in the inventory of the prop- 
erty. This is a little memorandum I 
made before I came down here. 

Q. — With reference to the ac- 
counting, we would like for you to 
write us out in detail your opinion 
as to the improvements that could 
be made in reference to the account- 
ing, bookkeeping, etc. What busi- 
ness were you engaged in prior to 
the time you accepted your present 
position? 

A. — Lumber business. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — In the system of accounting 
you have in mind, have you discussed 
that with the members of the Com- 
mission? 

A. — I have instructions from the 
Commission to make an estimate of 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



97 



what it would cost. I have dis- 
cussed it with them. 

Q. — So far as you have gone, you 
have their full concurrence? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You think there is no reason 
the system could not be installed? 

A. — No, sir; I see no reason why 
it should not. 

Q. — In the two months in which 
you have been auditor of the pen- 
itentiary system, have you had an 
opportunity to examine into the op- 
erations of the system for the past 
two years to justify you to determine 
in your own mind if the losses or 
debits were correct? 

A. — All inventories of the phys- 
ical properties of this system for the 
last two years, or four years, and a 
number of years back, are to be 
taken not seriously on account of 
grave errors. I want to say this to 
you all, and would like to have it 
go on record, that in the event 
proper accounting is ever installed 
the basic principle, or starting, 
should be a correct inventory, and 
when that inventory is taken, each 
and every bit of property should be 
taken, and the machinery should be 
taken and a notation should be made 
on it of what is deducted from it, 
starting on the fixed basis. 

Q. — Would you be willing to say 
in your judgment the property values 
stated in the 1912 report of your 
predecessor would be a fair valua- 
tion of these properties? 

A. — No, sir; I will say it is my 
belief the farm properties are worth 
a little more than they are inven- 
toried at. I believe they will show 
an increase in value. 

Q. — Is there any material differ- 
ence in the records of Mr. Barton 
and — ■ 

A — Never have I seen one scratch 
of his pen, and I have received no 
records from him of any nature or 
character. 

Q. — Did not Mr. Barton furnish 
you with a copy of the report to 
the Governor? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you examined the rec- 
ords? 

A. — I have had no opportunity to 
examine them. 

Q. — Have you ever discussed the 
matter with Mr. Barton? 

A. — No, sir; I never saw Mr. Bar- 
ton until you gentlemen came down 
except the morning I took charge. 



He turned me over three or four 
pen stocks, some ink stands, two or 
three tablets, some pencil memo- 
randa and some stamped envelopes, 
and that was about all. Now, all 
the data that ever existed in that 
desk is there, and I presume the 
pencil notations might apply to the 
report. 

Q. — Have you satisfied yourself 
the records are correct? 

A. — I have not examined the rec- 
ords; no, sir. 

Q. — Have you made any calcula- 
tions as to the losses of the peniten- 
tiary system since the date of Mr. 
Huey's audit? 

A. — I take it about the same pro 
rata basis. 

Q. — I would like to ask Mr. Moore 
j to favor the committee with a state- 
! ment, according to his judgment and 
examination of the books, of what 
he thinks the indebtedness of the 
penitentiary system is today; what 
the losses were in 1912, and what 
the losses have been from the first 
day of January, 1913, to the first 
day of May, 1913? 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Have you examined the bills 
and accounts receivable? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you hazard any esti- 
mate of the portion of them that 
are uncollectable accounts? 

A. — No, sir. I find accounts in 
there that should be undoubtedly 
charged off. We have on these books 
accounts with people I quit selling 
and refused to deal with, and they 
should be thrown away. I would 
pronounce anything that is past due 
ninety days and not collected as being 
doubtful. 

Q. — Is the system now being con- 
ducted on a cash basis? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Are there any large bills pay- 
able to be taken care of? 

A. — Nothing that I know of. 

Q. — Do you owe any money you 
have to pay soon? 

A. — Yes, sir; plenty of those; quite 
a quantity of them. 

Q. — You don't know what they 
aggregate? 

A. — No, sir; I could not say. They 
are of short term notice, as I under- 
stand it. 

Q. — Have you considered the 
question of employes as to whether 
or not the system has too many? 

A. — I think not; no, sir. 



98 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Under your system of account- 
ing, could you reduce the number 
of empployes? 

A. — No, sir; not in my system of 
accounting. I would use more men, 
but it would be convicts. 

Q. — Are you in sympathy in using 
convicts in positions where you can? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you examined the ac- 
count carried as maintenance in the 
statements? 

A. — No, sir; I have not examined 
into the distribution of these ac- 
counts. 

Q. — Prom your observations, 
would you conclude from what you 
have learned a saving could be made 
by having all the principal purchases 
made in connection with the State 
purchasing institution by the State 
agent? 

A. — I think not. 

Q. — Why? 

A. — Because no State agent is lo- 
cated in this particular part of the 
country at the present time. A deal- 
er in groceries who is able to supply 
the institutions at Austin would not 
be in position to ship it to us here. 
Now, if I had charge of the pur- 
chasing of these supplies, I would 
adopt the same rules as used by the 
United States Army; the most com- 
plete plan I have ever see. I be- 
lieve the prison system actually buys, 
handles and uses more stuff than all 
the other State institutions put to- 
gether. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
requisitions made to the Governor 
within the last two weeks. 

A. — All those had my O. K. on 
them. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
prices submitted by the State agent 
advising what he could buy the sup- 
plies for? 

A. — No, sir; I don't know. I know 
that little batch of requisitions, 
which is not one-third of them, has 
balled up the Purchasing Agent at 
Austin. 

Q. — I wanted to know if you ob- 
jected to the State purchasing all 
the supplies through a central 
agency. 

A. — The stuff the penitentiary 
uses is entirely different from the 
other articles in other places. 

Q. — Can any portion of the sup- 
plies be bought more economically? 

A. — Some of them can. Electric 
light globes can be bought cheaper, 



and we could get a great discount 
and a lower price by combining all 
of them, but it would not be prac- 
ticable for him to do all the buying, 
as there are a number of emergency 
orders. I expect I have signed 
twenty- five or thirty of them today. 
If I had the management of these 
things, every bit of the supplies in 
the way of raw material and stuff 
necessary for the manufacture of 
different articles, I would take en- 
tirely away from the superintendents 
handling those factories, and he 
would go to a fountain head to get 
his supplies, and at the end of the 
week we would check him up, and 
not wait until twelve or eighteen 
months after some particular loss 
has occurred. It would then be up 
to him to either raise the price, cut 
down expenses, or shut the doors. 

Q. — Even though the manufactur- 
ing plants do not show a profit, what 
departments do you think it policy 
to continue? 

A. — The best proposition is the 
wagon plant. If that was slightly 
improved, and the woodwork plant 
and the blacksmith shop was brought 
together, I believe it would show a 
handsome profit. The tailor shop 
and shoe shop products are used by 
the system, and they should be op- 
erated; likewise the machine shop 
will show a profit if it is properly 
handled, and the furniture factory 
can be made to show a profit if they 
will specialize on furniture such as 
cedar chests, etc. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Could you tell us approxi- 
mately what it cost to make one 
of these wagons? 

A. — No, sir; I could not. You 
can get that from the foreman. 
There is no cost system in that de- 
partment which is accurate, how- 
ever. 

Q. — What do you get for those 
wagons? 

A. — (No response.) (A price list 
is procured and handed to Senator 
Willacy for his inspection.) 



FRIDAY, MAY 2, 1913, AT HUNTS- 
VILLE, TEXAS. 

Testimony of R. W. Brahan: 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy:' 
Q. — You have charge of the farm- 
ing "department have you not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



99 



Q. — Can you tell the Committee 
what the total acreage is of the 
system? 

A. — Thirty-five thousand acres. 

Q. — How much belongs to the 
State? I mean the cultivated acre- 
age? 

A. — On the Clemens farm the cul- 
tivated acreage is 4,300 acres belong- 
ing to the State. On the Goree farm 
about 600 acres in cultivation; on 
the Harlem farm 2,600 acres belong- 
ing to the State; on the Imperial 
farm about 4800 acres belonging to 
the State; on the Ramsey farm about 
3,100 acres belonging to the State; 
at Rusk 440 acres; and on the Wynne 
farm 595 acres belonging to the 
State. 

Q. — Will you please give the 
names of the several managers on 
these different farms and salary each 
receives? 

A. — 
Wm. Oglesby, Manager, 

Wynne State farm, 

house to live in and 

supplies, and per month. . $ 85.00 
R. H. Caviness, Manager, 

per month 75.00 

Matron, Goree farm, per 

month 45.00 

J. F. Murphy, Manager, 

per month 125.00 

Bassett Blakely, First As- 
sistant, per month 50.00 

T. C. Blakely, Manager 

Harlem State farm, per 

month 175.00 

First Assistant, per month. . 75.00 
Second Assistant, per 

month 65.00 

A. K. Addison, Manager, 

Imperial State farm, 

per month 175.00 

First Assistant, per month. . 75.00 
Second Assistant, per 

month 65.00 

Manager T. W. House plan- 
tation, per month 150.00 

First Assistant, per month. . 65.00 
Second Assistant, per 

month 50.00 

Ramsey State farm Manag- 
er, per month 75.00 

First Assistant, per month. . 75.00 
Second Assistant, per 

month 65.00 

Third Assistant, per month. . 65.00 
Trammel Farm Manager, 

per month, 100.00 

Clemens State farm Man- 
ager, per month 175.00 

First Assistant, per month. . 75.00 



Three other assistants, 

each, per month 65.00 

N. A. Shaw farm, manag- 
er, per month 100.00 

On the Wynne State farm, Goree 
farm, Bassett Blakely farm, Harlem 
State farm, there are none of these 
men married except the managers. 
On the Imperial farm one of the as- 
sistant managers is married but does 
not draw supplies. The other two 
assistant managers are single men. 
On the House plantation one assist- 
ant manager is married; the other is 
a single man. On the Ramsey State 
farm two of the assistant managers 
are married and living on the place, 
and draw their groceries. On the 
H. L. Trammel farm the manager 
gets his supplies. On the Clemens 
State farm one assistant is married 
and draws supplies; the other three 
are single men. There is 5000 acres 
in cultivation on the Clemens farm, 
and we may get in 3 00 or 400 acres 
more, and if we do we will jump in 
and break it, plant it in corn and 
take a chance on it. The manager 
on the Shaw farm is married and 
draws his supplies. 

Q. — Who appoints the assistants? 

A. — The Commission. 

Q. — Who appoints the stewards? 

A. — Frequently we let the man- 
ager suggest a man for us, but the 
Commission passes on all of them, 
and I will state I have never ap- 
pointed a man either of the other* 
two Commissioners were opposed to 
and will not appoint a man they are 
opposed to. 

Q. — Who has the general control 
of the Assistants? 

A. — The manager. The general 
manager can remove them and re- 
port to us. 

Q. — What was the total value of 
the farm improvements put on the 
farms operated by the State? 

A. — I would not attempt to say. 

Q. — Will you approximate it? 

A. — No, sir; I will not approxi- 
mate it. 

Q. — How many artesian wells have 
you dug? 

A. — One at Huntsville; one at the 

Wynne farm; one at the Goree farm; 

two at the Imperial farm; four at 

he Ramsey farm, and one at tha 

Clemens farm. 

kI. — Are these wells necessary for 
.vater supply? 

A. — Absolutely. I think it one of 
the most essential things I know of. 



100 



Report and Findings of 



Q.-^-How does the value of lands 
compare with the book value, not 
considering the improvements? 

A. — I think all the places in the 
lower countries the valuation we 
placed on them is a fair valuation 
considering the prices at which oth- 
er properties are held and what peo- 
ple want for their lands, and what 
they sell for in that country. 

Q. — About what is the average 
valuation of that land? 

A. — About $50 or $60 per acre, 
and I want to state to you gentle- 
men the way we got these values. 
We got some of the best men to find 
out what they considered a reason- 
able value for those lands. 

Q. — Did you include the improve- 
ments on these lands? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you think it is a good in- 
vestment for the State to farm on 
the share farm system? 

A. — I think they ought to buy the 
land. If we did then all the im- 
provements would belong to the 
State. With very few exceptions, we 
are taking options on all the lands 
we are working. 

Mr. Brahan is requested by the 
members of the Committee to sub- 
mit to them a list of all the lands 
the State holds options on. 

Q. — Have you paid anything in 
consideration of these options? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you mention the charac- 
ter of land in your report of State 
owned land? 

A. — No, sir; it does not mention 
the character of land. It is simply 
to show what the State now owns. 

Q. — Do you mention the number 
of acres of cane in each of them? 

A. — No, sir; but I can give you 
that offhand. 

Q. — State the number of acres in 
cane on leased lands? 

A. — On the Clemens farm we have 
no cane except on our own land. I 
just want to enumerate the number 
of acres in cane on these several op- 
tion tracts. Old man George Har- 
lem did not give us an option on his 
land. My idea was to do some irri- 
gating and to lease his land and get 
the right to buy it, but we could 
not get him in the notion of selling 
it at all. At the Ramsey farm we 
have got 107 acres in cane with an 
option on it at $60 per acre. On the 
Smith tract there is 107 acres in 
cane. On the Masterson tract of land 
we have got an option at $35 per 



acre and there is 125 acres in cane. 
On the Felix Jackson place adjoin- 
ing the Ramsey farm there is 75 
acres in cane and we have an option 
on it at $40 per acre. On the Tram- 
mell place we have an option at $70 
per acre and there is 7 00 acres in 
cane. 

Q. — Now you suggested that the 
State ought to buy these lands. 

A. — I think that the State should 
buy them in preference to renting 
them. I believe we ought to acquire 
a large farm of 20,000 acres where 
we could put all the white men we 
could not use in the walls. 

Q. — Now I notice on the Imperial 
farm there was a loss of $54,370.79 
and it shows a credit of $32,874.78 
for cane which we did not get. 

A. — That is not the farm's fault. 

Q. — Yes, sir; everything is the 
farm's fault until we get to the net 
result. Even if there has been no 
charge for convict labor, $47,345.35, 
there would have been a loss of $7,- 
000, even if we had sold the cane 
and got the money for it. 

A. — We are taking care of labor 
that was very sorry, and that was 
non-productive, and we could not 
take care of them otherwise. 

Q. — If we can't make it self-sup- 
porting on the farms each year I 
think it is time for us to consider 
trying to find some other way to em- 
ploy the convicts. Now the Shaw 
farm in North Texas last year, 1912, 
lost $25,233.37, and the year before 
$12,000. While we are on this sub- 
ject what is your idea of the over- 
head charges and transportation of 
convicts to a farm at least 300 miles 
away ? 

A. — I think it would be better to 
concentrate the prison system if we 
could. I think that is too far away 
to have a farm, and it being twelve 
miles from the railroad station that 
also adds to the expense. 

Q. — Under whose administration 
was the farm leased? 

A. — We made the present con- 
tract. 

Q. — How long did that run? 

A. — Just one year, and we just 
simply renewed it for one year with 
option to buy. 

Q. — How many men do you carry 
on that lease? 

A. — 105 to 118. 

Q. — And that represents a loss of 
about $2 000 per month? 

A. — I thought there was going to 
be v loss there. I know about the 



Penitentiary Investigating Coaoiittee. 



101 



shortness of the crop. You can tell 
practically what the cotton crop will 
be in August, or -the last of August 
anyway. 

Q. — Have you ever figured up just 
exactly what the total loss was last 
year from the operations of the 
farms? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
Clemens farm? 

A — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — Do you think there is as much 
as 1500 acres of it good land for rais- 
ing cane? 

A. — I think there is practically 
15 00 acres good cane land. 

Q — In your opinion, do you think 
it profitable to grow cane? 

A. — I think it has always been a 
gamble. I have seen the time in 
South Texas when all the farms 
would make cane crops, and I never 
did see a cane crop a total failure 
except in one instance during an 
overflow. I think you can overdo 
the cane business, and I think we 
should confine ourselves, and only try 
to raise enough cane for sugar for 
the different State institutions and 
the prison, and to make all the syrup 
used in the prison. If we continue 
in the cane business I think we would 
have to go to making syrup instead 
of sugar. You can make money if 
you get from 21 to 2 5 cents for the 
syrup. You can stop making syrup 
12 to 15 days earlier than you can 
sugar. 

Q. — What are the conditions exist- 
ing now between the State and the 
Eldridge sugar mill? 

A. — The Attorney General handled 
this, and if we get the seven miles of 
railroad opened up we can handle all 
the cane. Mr. Eldridge in a way told 
me that he would rebuild that rail- 
road and furnish all the material to 
put it in first-class condition if we 
would do the work on it — furnish the 
convict labor. • 

Q. — Would that be his property? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 

Q. — How do you account for the fact 
that those men who were engaged in 
farming and who leased the convicts 
at $30.00 per month made it profitable 
when tne State loses money when the 
maintenance cost on each convict is 
$16.62 per capita? 

A. — I don't think you can show me 
they made money. I don't think you 
can show me a man who has worked 
convicts trying to raise sugar cane 



that it did not break. Col. Cunning- 
ham got wrapped up in a farm that 
he believed he could make money 
on, and I told him and his associates 
it would break any man in the world 
to pay $31 for convicts and try to do 
farming with them. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Have you studisd that contract 
of the Imperial Sugar Co., regarding 
the cultivation of cane? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have given it lots 
of study. I will state Mr. Eldridge 
intimated to Mr. Tittle and Mr. Cabell 
that he would have no use for the mill 
unless he had the cane to grind. 

Q. — How much do you understand 
that mill property to be worth? 

A. — Do you mean how much it is 
worth now? 

Q. — Yes, sir. 

A. — I don't think it is worth any- 
thing unless you move it to Mexico or 
Cuba. 

Q. — What would he sell it for? 

A. — Every dollar in the world if he 
could get it. I think that mill would 
cost you to rebuild it — I think a mill 
like that could be put up for $250,- 
000.00 or $275,000.00. I don't think it 
is worth that much now. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — How came Mr. Eldridge to tie 
up the State in a contract the way he 
did? Who is responsible for that kind 
of a contract? 

A. — I don't know. I feel this way: 
That we have got a great many men, 
and I think they made the trade, think- 
ing it was to the best interests of the 
State. 

Q. — At the time this contract was 
made were you familiar with the sit- 
uation there? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think at the time the 
contract was made for the place that 
it was a reasonably cheap piece of 
property? 

A. — I think it was reasonably cheap. 

Q. — Was it not a fact that the sugar 
cane contract was repudiated, and it 
was stipulated the contract had been 
broken? 

A. — I will state tbat when Mr. 
Cabell, Mr. Tittle and myself took 
charge Mr. Herring and Mr. Barton 
told us the land was absolutely paid 
for and that we would plant anything 
we wanted to, and that the crops 
should be rotated, and then we got 
Mr. Hill to give us his opinion, and 
he went over it and he did not agree 
with Mr. Barton and Mr. Herring. 



102 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Do you know whether or not 
Mr. Eldridge ever offered the Imperial 
farm to the State at any price other 
than what we paid for the land? 

A. — No sir, I don't know. 

Q. — They have been raising potatoes 
on several of the farms, have thev 
not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Has that been a good invest- 
ment? 

A. — I think they broke even last 
year. It is just a gamble. If they hit 
it right this year we will make money. 

Q. — Have you had any experience 
in farming yourself? 

A. — My former life was spent on a 
farm, and my father was a farmer and 
run a farm from 1887 until his death. 
I used to visit there every summer. 

Q. — What do you think would be 
the best crops to plant our lands in? 

A. — A balance crop — corn, cotton 
and cane, and I would put in from 
3,000 to 4,000 acres of cane. 

Q. — How far from the Imeprial 
farm is the Harlem Sugar Mill? 

A. — The farthest place is 5^4 miles. 

Q. — Does that road extend to the 
Harlem farm? 

A. — Yes, sir; Mr. Eldridge built that 
road himself. 

Q. — Did not the State reserve the 
right in that contract that in case Mr. 
Eldridge did not haul our cane we 
would haul our cane over the same 
track? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Could the cane raised on the 
Imperial farm be ground at the Har- 
lem mill? 

A. — I think we have the capacity 
to do it. We ground about half of it 
at the Harlem mill last year. 

Q. — How did you get it there? 

A. — I would send it in tram cars 
part of the way and — 

Q. — How much cane do you usually 
average to the acre? 

A. — About fifteen tons to the acre. 

Q. — And about how much is it 
worth ? 

A.— About $3.00 to $3.50 at the mill. 

Q. — How much does it cost per acre 
to plant cane? 

A.— It costs about $20.00 to $25.00 
per acre and you can get four crops 
off of it. The second crop is always 
the best crop, and the third and fourth 
crops are not so good. 

Q. — What is the capacity of the Har- 
lem mill? 

A. — You can grind at the Harlem 
mill 500 tons per day. 



Q. — What is the capacity of the 
demons mill? 

A. — The demons mil will grind 
from 1,000 to 1,200 tons per day. Now, 
as long as cotton stays up like it is I 
would start into the cotton business, 
but if cotton drops down I think I 
would rather stay in the cane busi- 
ness. I believe they will solve the 
boll weavil problem, but other pests 
may come. I do not know that a cot- 
ton crop is as sure as a cane crop, but 
it is an easier crop to harvest, and you 
can take it off, and you do not have 
a gamble with a freeze like you do 
with a cane crop. It will stand more 
punishment from the elements than 
cane, or any other known crop. Cane 
is a forced crop in this country, and 
is not a safe crop. 

Q. — Do you think cotton is an un- 
satisfactory crop here now? 

A. — No, sir; it is a very certain 
crop in the Brazos bottom. 

Q. — How about that land? Is it 
becoming impoverished? 

A. — The Imperial farm is one of the 
worst of all, and we have thirty-four 
disc plows on that place, and we try 
to plant pea vines with the corn, and 
then we turn the corn stalks and all 
under. I think on twelve hundred 
acres of land Mr. Addison gathered 
twenty and had bushels of corn to 
the acre, and some of the land he 
gatheerd as much as thirty-one and 
three-quarters bushels, and I think 
that was due altogether to discing in 
the corn stalks and pea vines in the 
soil. 

Q. — But from the record of the farm 
and your own experience, it is pretty 
much of a gamble in any kind of 
farming operations? 

A. — It is one of the best things you 
can do with convicts. 
By Mr. L. Tillotson. 

Q. — Have you any idea if it had 
not been for the consideration in the 
contract to supply the cane that the 
Commission would have -ever been able 
to buy the property for $160,000.00? 

A. — I think the cane crop was the 
main thing for making the trade. 

Q. — I understand the Commission 
has refused to comply further with 
the conditions of this contract. On 
whose advice did you do this? 

A. — On the advice of the Attorney 
General. 

Mr. Hill states: The facts regard- 
ing that situation in December, 1911, 
are: The Imperial Sugar Company 
brought suit to recover. The basis for 
the suit was the contract agreeing to 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



103 



maintain 2250 acres in cane had been 
breached. Now in addition to that 
they declined to pay for the cane de- 
livered in the fall of 1911. The Attor- 
ney General and myself construed 
the situation to be about this: 'that 
if the contract had been breached the 
title to the property was in the Im- 
perial Sugar Company and they would 
own the cane also, and to deliver any 
cane in 1912 would be giving them the 
cane, and we could not recover if that 
was correct, and the further fact that 
they had refused to pay for the cane 
we construed to be a breach of con- 
tract on their part such as to relieve 
the State after they refused to pay 
for the cane in 1911. Another con- 
sideration was whether or not the 
State had to deliver the cane after 
the $160,000.00 was paid. The present 
Attorney General is very firm in the 
conviction that when the $160,000.00 
is paid that terminated the obligations 
for delivering the cane. My views as 
to that contract is influenced very lar- 
gely by Judge Gill, who made the con- 
tract. He stated this: the State 
wanted to acquire the property and 
the consideration of the sale to the 
State was $160,000.00 and the agree- 
ment to sell them the cane for ten 
years at a stipulated price. It was 
the opinion of the Board that they 
could not bind the State to deliver for 
ten years and could not make the 
contract, and if you will read the deed 
alone they had to keep up the con- 
tract for ten years, but if you will 
read the note they were released when 
they paid the $160,000.00. 

Senator Willacy Interrogates Mr. 
Hill: 

Q. — What is the land worth compar- 
ed with what was paid for it? 

A. — That farm is reasonably worth, 
as near as I have been able to get at 
it— that land is worth $500,000.00. 
Now, one of our defenses is the 2,250 
is descriptive of what was actually in 
cane at that time. 

Senator Jno. G. Willacy Interrogates 
Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — Have you reduced the cane acre- 
age this year? 

A. — Yes, sir; about 600 acres this 
year. 

Q.— How many acres have you in 
the Clemens farm? 

A.— About 8,000 acres. 

Q. — And about how much suitable 
for cane? 

A. — About 715 acres. Some of the 
land is fair potato land, and the rest 



fair corn land, and some years you 
make good cotton. 

Q. — And if you cannot compel Mr. 
Eldridge to rebuild that seven miles 
of railroad to give connection with the 
Clemens sugar mill, will it not be very 
expensive to get cane to run the mill? 

A. — That is all true, but to move 
cane you should move it in just as 
short a time as possible. You take 
a 1200 ton mill and when you close 
it down it is very expensive. I don't 
believe in building a railroad if you 
can help it. 

Q. — Would you be able to state to 
the Committee the cultivated acreage 
you think the penitentiary system 
should own for the employment of 
its convicts ? 

A. — I think about 45,000 acres, and 
the cultivated acreage should be 
about 35,000 acres. 

Q. — I understand you had an op- 
tion on the House farm? 

A.— Yes, sir; at $550,000, and they 
have a sugar mill on that place. 

Q. — About what is that worth? 

A.— $175,000. 

Q. — What is the amount of acre- 
age on that farm? 

A. — Eight thousand and something. 

Q. — At what price could you buy it 
now? 

A. — It is not for sale. I think the 
people now are pretty much land hold- 
ers instead of sellers, but they try to 
sell it after they try to operate it. 

Q. — Generally speaking, how does 
the acreage of cane compare this 
year with what it was in 1912? 

A. — I think we have got in about 
1700 acres less this year than we had 
in last year. 

Q. — And your total cultivated acre- 
age in share and State farms? 

A. — Y"es, sir; a little over 7000 
acres. 

Q. — Have you considered the ad- 
visability of crushing the cotton seed 
on the plantations? 

A. — We have wanted to put in a 
cotton seed mill at one of the farms 
and crush all the cotton seed. 

Q. — Where would you put it? 

A. — At the Harlem farm. In con- 
nection with that would have a mixed 
feed plant that and make a mixed 
feed of alfalfa and corn, etc., for the 
work stock and dairy cattle, and feed 
steers and cows for beef, for beef pur- 
posed for the market. 



104 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — About what tonnage of seed 
could you control there? 

A— About six to eight thousand 
bales of cotton. You would have to 
have about that. You might run a 40 
ton mill and operate it on 4000 tons of 
seed, the more the better. 

Q. — Have you looked into the en- 
silage proposition? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have had a great 
deal of correspondence in regard to 
silos, and I have been out to the old 
"Shanhai" Pierce place a half dozen 
times and looked at the silos there, 
and to show what he thinks of them 
he is building a great number of them 
each year, and building them all the 
time. 

Q. — Have you investigated them in 
regard to feeding work teams such as 
mules ? 

A, — We had convicts leased to him 
when we first went into office, and I 
saw his work teams and they were 
doing just as good work as anywhere 
on the system. He plants sorghum 
and saves the seed and then he cuts 
it down and makes ensilage of it. 

Q. — Can you use ribbon cane tops ? 

A. — I think that would be very ad- 
visable. I would not advise using 
sorghum in a cement silo, but would 
advise that it be a wooden silo. I 
am informed it gives better satisfac- 
tion than the cement silos. 

Q. — I see items of expense for for- 
age. What is your annual expense 
for hay and things of that kind? 

A. — It has been pretty consider- 
able, and I feel certain from the in- 
vestigation I made of silos the feed 
bill could be cut half in two. 

Q. — Can you make any estimate per 
annum of the maintenance of work 
teams ? 

A. — It is about 35 to 40 cents per 
day to feed a mule — about 75 cents 
approximately to feed a team. 

Q. — What kind of hay do you grow ? 

A. — We have about 150 acres of 
prairie hay on the Harlem farm, also 
on that property we have 126 acres of 
alfalfa, and on the Clemens farm 
about 325 acres of South Texas prai- 
rie hay and we have a lot of hay land 
on the Ramsey farm. 

Q. — How many acres of land do you 
work with each team? 

A. — About twenty-one and a half 
or twenty-two acres to the mule, or 
about forty-four acres to the team. 

Q.— How many acres to the man? 

A. — Eleven or twelve acres. 



Q. — If you cut out the cane what 
would be your increased acreage in 
cotton ? 

A.— About 10,000 acres of cotton. 

Q.— More ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Mr. Brahan is requested by Commit- 
tee to prepare a complete list of losses 
of the share farms and State farms. 

Q. — If the convicts would average 
one hour more per day of effective 
work what material difference do you 
think it would make? 

A. — It would be worth a good deal. 
If you worked eight hours a day, and 
if you put it to nine, it would be 
just as much in proportion. 

Q. — It would not injure the men to 
work them one more hour per day? 

A. — No, sir; I think not. 

Q. — Did you deliver to Mr. Eldridge 
any cane off of any other land be- 
sides the Imperial farm? 

A. — We did not deliver any last 
year. We leased the House mill and 
operated it on a lease. 

Q. — How did you come out on that 
as an investment? 

A. — Just about broke even. 

Q. — You mean to say you just about 
broke even on the operation of the 
mill? 

A. — Yes, sir; we bought and milled 
it just like any other cane. 

Q. — Was it sold at the same price 
you could have sold to any other 
mill? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — You stated yesterday, Mr. Bra- 
han, the Commission would be its own 
worst critics about the management 
of the penitentiary affairs. 

A. — I think we have not done what 
we should have done if we had had 
the money. We have $40,000 worth 
of implements without sheds. We 
have not the money to put them up 
with. We have an insuffiicent amount 
of mules and dairy cows, and insuffi- 
cient sheds for tools, and we ought 
to have silos on the different places, 
and for the high class mules we buy 
we ought to have the very best barns 
and sheds for them, and there is a 
great many things we have not been 
able to get because of lack of money, 
and it might be criticised because we 
did not hire out the convicts until 
1914, as the law said we could. 

Q. — What mistakes have you made ? 

A. — In taking care of the imple- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



105 



ments and having no buildings to 
keep them out of the weather. There 
has been a great deal of waste that 
could not have been avoided. It 
ought to have been avoided. 

Q. — And you think the leasing of 
the Shaw farm is good business 
policy ? 

A. — I doubt it. I don't think so. 

Q. — Dou you think with the proper 
equipment and proper management 
the farms could be made to pay? 
That is, with the land cleared up and 
the proper ditching done, do you 
think they will be able to take care 
of and maintain the convicts without 
expense to the people? 

A. — If you charge up the labor, I 
doubt it. There will be some years 
better than others, but I believe if 
you maintain the cripples, second and 
third class men, the expense will be 
just about even. 

Q. — Does the farm at Rusk pay 
anything ? 

A. — No, sir; nothing. 

Q. — Do you think it possible for 
Rusk to be self-sustaining? 

A. — No, sir; nor the Huntsville 
prison either. 

Q. — Do you think the penitentia- 
ries should be consolidated at this 
or some other point? 

A. — Yes, sir; I do. I believe the 
penitentiary should be at one place, 
and I believe it is the best business 
policy. 

Q. — Do you believe the farms 
should be consolidated? 

A. — Yes, sir; as much as possible. 
I recommend that the farms be con- 
solidated, but some of the others 
thought different. 

Q. — As a business proposition do 
you think the farms should be as 
close as possible to the management 
of the prison system? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — About how much time do you 
spend on the farms? 

A. — About half of my time. 

Q. — How much time do you spend 
at Huntsville? 

A. — About half. About one-fourth 
of my time is taken up in going from 
one place to another. 

Q. — Then in addition to your sal- 
ary and expenses of your department 
there is a large per cent of your 
time taken up in going to Houston 
and back. What proportion of their 
time do ths other Commissioners 
spend in going to Houston? 



A. — I don't know, Governor. Mr. 
Cabell does not go to Houston as 
often as I do. When I came in I got 
Mr. Cabell to take these three farms 
under his management, and we un- 
loaded the railroad on him, and Mr. 
Tittle goes to Rusk a good deal, and 
he has made the greater part of the 
inspection of the Shaw farm, and 
has been there much oftener than 
either Mr. Cabell or myself. 

Q. — Have you any suggestions to 
make to the Committee in reference 
to changes in the policy beyond those 
made by Mr. Cabell? 

A. — I like the Louisiana system 
better than ours. They pay their 
men for overtime work such as Sun- 
day; the lot men, who attend to the 
teams, etc., time instead of money. 
If a man works three Snudays it 
entitles him to just that much more 
time off. They keep track of the 
time and give him that reward. In 
the Mississippi system they have not 
got a guard in the penitentiary. They 
do everything with trusty convicts. 

Q. — Do you think it possible to re- 
place the guards with trustes? 

A. — I think one or two members of 
the Commission should go to Missis- 
sippi and spend two or three days, 
and go over their farms. I think it 
would be profitable for us and learn 
us a whole lot. I think if we could 
do away with the guard system and 
feed them and clothe them you would 
have done well. I think the cost of 
the guards and feed for his horse is 
about $75 or $80 per month. 

Q. — What is the average number 
of convicts to the guard? 

A. — I try to make them carry 
twelve; sometimes they have only 
eight. People will tell you what free 
labor can do, and what a good aver- 
age farm in West Texas will do, but 
that fixed expense is something you 
can't get away from, and is hard to 
understand until you go on the farm 
and see you have got to have those 
guards. I need eight or ten guards 
right today. 

Q. — Do you think you can do away 
with the guard system in Texas? 

A. — I would like to go to Missis- 
sippi and see conditions? 

Q. — Is it not a fact that on the 
Harlem farm prisoners are turned 
loose on Sunday afternoon to play 
ball? 

A. — Yes, sir; but there are some 
two or three guards with them. 



106 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Have you done anything to 
grade up the cotton this year? 

A. — We bought one car of long 
staple cotton seed and have planted 
it, and we are doing all we can to 
buy the best seed and get the best 
results. Our managers are taking 
a big interest in those kind of things 
and are doing everything to bring 
about good results. 

Q. — Your suggestions would be to 
concentrate the penitentiaries and 
equip the farms so the element of 
of waste will be reduced to a mini- 
mum, and to substitute convicts for 
guards? 

A. — I think t*hat is bound to be 
one of the solutions if we make any 
headway. You could not hope to 
farm with en average eight hours 
labor, and I don't think any sensible 
farmer, or business man, would con- 
tend that it can be done, but the law 
is there, and we are trying to live 
up to it. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Have you good soil for raising 
cotton? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You stated you had bought a 
carload of improved seed? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think it would be a 
profitable investment for the State 
to devote itself to strictly high grade 
cotton? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think the soil is pro- 
ductive enough and the climatic con- 
ditions favorable? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think if you engage in 
the cultivation and improving of cot- 
ton and practically improving the 
seed selection, that such seed im- 
proved on the farm could be sold 
back to the farmers of Texas. In 
other words, do you think you could 
develop enough sense among the con- 
victs to produce an improved cotton 
on the penitentiary farms. Do you 
think the convicts, as a general run 
who work on the farms, are intelli- 
gent enough to be easily trained in 
the line of seed selection and im- 
provement of cotton? 

A. — I think so ; the bad element in 
the penitentiary that is really bad 
is not large. It is how to handle 
those few that is the proposition, and 
there are a heap more good men 
than bad men in the penitentiary. 

Mr. Tillotson requests Senator Wil- 
lacy to ask about the tuberculosis in 
hogs. 



A. — They are testing out the dairy 
herds of the State and have not found 
a cow with tuberculosis, but have 
found a great deal of tuberculosis 
among the hogs. We shipped a car- 
load of hogs from the Clemens farm 
about sixty as pretty hogs as you ever 
saw — and there was one that weighed 
298 pounds that was affected all 
over. His whole body was affected, 
and there was not another hog- 
affected. 

Q. — Will you state how many cars 
of hogs you shipped last year? 

A. — I could not state. We lost last 
year about seven or eight hundred 
hogs from cholera and disease. 

Q. — Do you think you could proba- 
bly increase your production of hogs? 
A. — The hog proposition on paper 
is the prettiest thing you ever saw. 
The policy we are following now, we 
are using all our places to breed hogs 
and when they can crack corn, we 
develop them for the market, and 
get them to the market just as soon 
as we can. They don't cost us a cent 
to raise them. I think they are ab- 
solutely a clear profit like a silo is 
on a place. 

Q. — What number of hogs do you 
usually keep? 

A. — We keep from seventy-five to 
one hundred on each camp. 

Q. — How many camps on a farm? 
A. — Three or four camps. 
By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 
Q. — I would like to ask you a ques- 
tion in regard to the doubtful ac- 
counts? 

A. — You take the accounts that 
are on the books, and, outside of the 
law suits, I think they will compare 
with Sanger Bros., W. B. Cleveland & 
Co., or any firms in Texas. A great 
many of the accounts are what we 
inherited when we came into office. 
By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
Q. — About what distance do the 
convicts walk to work on the State 
farms? 

A. — About one and a half miles. 
Very little over that distance unless 
it is to some nook or corner. 

Q. — The question I started to ask 
in reference to accounts I intended 
to confine myself to the conditions of 
affairs since the prison commission 
took charge. 

A. — Leaving out the law suits I 
think it has been very small, and we 
inherited the contracts. Now, when 
you go into the manufacturing busi- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



10' 



ness you have got to sell like the 
others in the United States. 



FRIDAY, MAY 2, 1913, AT HUNTS- 
VILLE, TEXAS. 

Testimony of Ben E. Cabell. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — You are Chairman of the 
Prison Commission, are you not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is the policy of the 
Commission? Do you jointly man- 
age and control all the affairs of the 
penitentiary system, or are there cer- 
tain branches, or duties, that each 
member of the system attends to? 

A. — In the creation of the Com- 
mission, there were three Commis- 
sioners designated; 1, 2 and 3. The 
Commissioner designated No. 1 has 
charge of the supervision of the pen- 
itentiary system — care, feeding, etc. 
No. 2 has charge of everything per- 
taining to the finance, and the third 
Commissioner looks after the farm- 
ing interests of the. penitentiary sys- 
tem. 

Q. — I would like for you to tell 
the Committee what each of the 
three Commissioners have charge of. 

A. — Mr. Brahan was appointed as 
farm commissioner, and he has the 
supervisory charge of all matters 
pertaining to the farms. The finance 
Hepartment has charge of all book- 
keeping, and in the way of receiv- 
ing and disbursing, and also all pur- 
chases of supplies. The Commission 
acts on the reports of the three Com- 
missioners, and their actions are re- 
corded in the minutes. 

Q. — You construe the law to mean 
you have a Commissioner elected to 
do a separate and distinct part? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — But you find the three pow- 
ers are not complete only with each 
ottier? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think where they 
assigned duties to the Commission 
it really makes it the operation of 
one man more than the Commission, 
and in our organization never 
thought it was right. 

Q. — Tell the Committee whether 
or not there has ever been friction 
between the Commissioners in the 
management of the penitentiary af- 
fairs. 

A. — I don't think there has been 
a great deal of friction. For in- 



stance, say Mr. Brahan was down on 
the farm making an investigation. 
He reports and the Commission nat- 
urally has to take his recommenda- 
tion, and possibly if all the Commis- 
sioners had done the investigating 
it would have been different. It is 
the same way with the finance de- 
partment. 

By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
Q. — When you disagree on the 
action of one Commissioner in his 
particular department, for instance; 
suppose you and Mr. Brahan should 
object to something Mr. Tittle rec- 
ommends, has it been your plan to 
give way or override Mr. Tittle? 

A. — In some instances we are 
overrode. Mr. Brahan has overrode 
his decision in some things, and Mr. 
\ Tittle and I have overrode Mr. Bra- 
; ban's opinion in regard to some 
; things. I believe the whole Commis- 
| sion should have the same informa- 
tion that the one Commissioner has. 
Q. — In theory, the prison affairs 
are under control of the Board, but 
i necessarily under the system of man- 
I agement, it is put under a separate 
' and distinct head, but all made fa- 
miliar with the general work? 

A. — Yes, sir. For instance, take 
the matter in regard to the dispute 
between Mr. Eldridge and the 
j State — ■ 

Q. — Will the Commission handle 
that? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
Q. — What is the proposed com- 
I promise and where does the propo- 
i sition come from? Does it come 
from Mr. Eldridge or the State? 
A. — I could not tell you. 
Q. — Who is the law attorney for 
the Prison Commission? 
A. — Mr. Hill. 

Q. — Is he employed regularly, or 
as he is retained In special cases? 

A. — He is employed for special 
cases, with the understanding that 
we feel at liberty to go to him for 
advice, and this arrangement was 
after discussion and approval by the 
Attorney General, and was first sug- 
gested by the Attorney General and 
the Governor. 

Q. — Now, Mr. Hill, as your at- 
torney, is now engaged in the dis- 
pute between the Prison Commis- 
sion and Mr. Eldridge? 

A. — We have had some discussion 
with reference to this case. 



108 



Report and Findings of 



Senator Warren interrogates Mr. 
Hill: 

Q. — Are you in position to state 
to this Committee as to the present 
status of the question between the 
State and Mr. Eldridge? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Taking into consideration the 
amount of money the State claims 
from Mr. Eldridge? 

A. — Yes, sir. There are several 
controversies pending between Mr. 
Eldridge and the Prison Commis- 
sion. There is a suit tried out by 
the lower court, pending an appeal, 
for cane delivered in 1912, one in 
regard to a contract with the Ram- 
sey farm, and one where Eldridge is 
seeking to secure a farm of 5235 
acres, and the Prison Commission has 
filed complaint against the railroad. 
It has been approved by the Attorney 
General that the attorneys for Mr. 
Eldridge and the sugar company get 
together and settle all these matters, 
and they have submitted a plan of 
settlement to us, as attorneys, which 
involved a general settlement of the 
entire controversy. 

Q. — You are not prepared to say 
upon what basis? 

A. — I don't think it proper to give 
that out now. 

Q". — There is nothing definite? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
farms in general? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — As to value? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — If the State should conclude to 
go out of the farming business, what 
would be the price you would sell 
these lands for? 

A. — I think the inventory taken of 
the values of these lands were all 
under what is asked for adjoining 
lands, similarly improved. For in- 
stance, I don't think our Harlem farm 
is valued as much as the lands ad- 
joining. 

Q. — How does the inventory of the 
lands compare with the price you 
think these lands could be sold for ? 

A. — I believe the book value of the 
lands is about correct. 

Q. — Mr. Cabell, under the law we 
carry a separate prison account with 
the Treasurer at Austin, and under 
the law this board makes a report 
once a week? 



A. — Yes, sir. I will say that all the 
financial transactions are done 
through the financial office, and we 
are complying with the law so far as 
we can. 

Q. — Are there times when you don't 
have the cash to send in? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What do you think it is costing 
the State to operate on credit over 
and above what it would cost us to 
operate on cash? 

A. — Well, I made a statement to 
the Governor in 1912 that it would 
cost us from 20 to 30 per cent more 
to operate the system on credit than 
it would if we were on a cash basis, 
and I believe the books will justify 
my statement. I believe we pay at 
least 15 to 20 per cent more under 
this system. 

Q. — You think 15 to 20 per cent 
would be about what represents the 
penalty of working on a credit basis ? 

A. — I would say 25 per cent interest 
and all. When our credit acounts 
come due we give notes and we pay 
from 6 to 8 per cent, and if these 
notes are renewed, we have to pay 
compound interest. 

Q. — Do you give notes to anyone 
other than banks? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you not consolidated your 
indebtedness in the banks ? 

A. — No, sir. We are trying to con- 
solidate this indebtedness, and borrow 
money to meet obligations as they 
come due, and we have been strictly 
on a credit system for practically 
two years. We did have some money 
in the year 1911, but not in 1912. 

Q. — In your judgment, the cridit 
system as it is being carried on now, 
is costing the State approximately 25 
per ecnt more than if it was on a 
cash basis ? 

A. — I think so, according to the 
way we buy things. 

Q. — Could you approximate Mie 
amount of loss to the State up to the 
present date, or the first of January; 
that is, the loss to the State due to 
the credit system? 

A.— I would say $250,000 loss. I 
am making this statement off hand. 

Q. — Don't you think if all things 
were handled by the State Treasure! 
just like any other institution in the 
State, we could save 25 per cent of 
the loss. When there is a deficiency 
in our State Treasury all men know 
our State is behind it and as fast as 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



109 



the money comes in it is taken up. 
Don't you think we could save $250,- 
000 per annum if we were brought 
under that system? 

A. — I have never made a calcula- 
tion on that matter, but I think what- 
ever will put the penitentiary system 
under the best management should be 
done. 

Q. — All the other State institutions 
of Texas carry on financial transac- 
tions directly with the State Treasu- 
rer, and whenever there is a deficit 
of cash then Treasury deficit warrants 
are issued where under your system 
you are paying excess prices of 15 
to 20 per cent and then interest on 
your bills payable. 

A. — If we can arrange it that way 
it would certainly be best. 

Q. — Under that system you are run- 
ning a credit with the Treasurer 
which of course is a warrant on the 
Treasurer, and payable just as soon 
as the money gets into the State 
Treasury. 

A. — One of the questions which 
kept men from bidding on the sup- 
plies we needed was the uncertainty 
as to when they would get the money. 

Q. — Under your system your credit- 
ors understand they acn't get the 
money until you have sold enough 
products of the penitentiary system, 
but on the other proposition they all 
understand that as fast as revenue 
comes in to the State Treasury, and 
it is coming in daily, and it is possi- 
ble they may be paid next week or 
next month, and paid just as fast as 
the revenue comes in. In other 
words, if your creditors had confidence 
that the State was behind this in- 
debtedness and that the indebtedness 
would be paid within a reasonable 
length of time, then you are confident 
that a great deal of this loss would 
be saved. 

A. — Yes, sir; I think it would have 
been better if the creditors had felt 
they would get their money. For in- 
stance; if you want to buy some 
material for the wagon shop, and 
you want oak timber, if you had the 
cash you could save 100 per cent on 
it. I think some arrangement should 
be made by which the State could be 
placed on a cash basis. 

Q. — Under your present system you 
give simply promise to pay? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Q. — And the other way you have 
the Treasury behind it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hill makes statement as fol- 
lows: Now, we secured a ruling from 
the Banking Commission of Texas, 
authorizing the State banks to handle 
these notes, and we also got authority 
from Washington authorizing the 
National banks to purchase them and 
thus enabled the prison to discount 
them just as cheap as possible. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
Hill: 

Q. — About when were these rulings 
made ? 

A. — In 1912, I think. It was early 
in the year 1912 or the latter part of 
1911. 

Mr. Cabell states: There are migh- 
ty few State banks that will loan us 
money. 

Senator Willacy resums interroga- 
tion of Mr. Cabell: 

Q. — Have you a statement prepared 
showing the total amount of money 
received by the penitentiary system 
since the new law went into effect? 

A. — I am quite sure a statement of 
that kind was sent to the Governor. 

Q. — Statement of moneys received 
from all sources? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Could you prepare one for us 
without much delay? 

A. — I think so. (Statement is re- 
quested by Committee.) 

Q. — In the employment of such em- 
ployees as you find necessary, has 
political preference entered into it, 
or do you use a merit basis ? 

A. — I don't think the political ques- 
tion has figured a great deal — very 
little. I would say it has figured but 
very little. Some are on the pay 
roll who have been recommended, and 
there were some recommended by 
friends that were not appointed. At 
the beginning of this administration 
we had applications from a great 
number of men, and some of them 
were not placed who were endorsed 
by friends of the administration. 

Q. — You use athe merit system? 

A. — We try to do it; yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know how many con- 
victs are employed on the Shaw 
lease? 

A. — About 112 men. 

Q. — Could you tell us about how 
often those convicts are exchanged? 

A. — They run from the way from 
66 men to 112. I think the lowest 



110 



Report and Findings of 



was 66 and it was increased up to 
112. 

Q. — How much expense has the 
State incurred for transportation 
from Huntsville to the Shaw farm ? 

A. — The railroad fare of the trans- 
ferred men and the convicts would be 
about $9 for each man. 

Q. — About what in the number of 
guards you sent with the convicts 
to the farms? 

A. — Sometimes twenty men with 
a guard. 

Q. — If you have 112 men there and 
you have to exchange 50 per cent 
that involves a transfer of 5 6 men. 
Have you ever figured up what . that 
amounts to at the end of the year? 

A. — No, sir; that was not taken as 
part of the expense against the 
farms. It is charged to the system. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — When a prisoner is dishcarged 
at the Shaw farm, is he brought to 
Huntsville for his discharge?. 

A. — No, sir; and the manager of 
the Shaw farm knows what his over 
time is; his per diem, and $5 and 
his clothes are furnished him, and 
he buys his ticket to wherever the 
convict wants to go. 

Q. — Here is the question: when 
your convicts are discharged from 
the farm will he be discharged from 
the farm where he has been assigned 
for duty? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you mind telling us in 
your own way the cause of this 
present deficiency ? 

A. — I think there are a good many 
reasons. I think one of the causes is 
the short hours worked by the con- 
victs, but I don't think that is all 
the cause. My opinion is we started 
wrong. I don't think the *iw is 
right to begin with as to the organi- 
zation of the Commission. I don't 
think it was business-like. My opinion, 
to begin with, in assuming control, I 
think we went in largely with false 
ideas, and thought the penitentairy 
system was in better shape tnan It 
was. We went into it believing it 
would not require any great amount 
of purhcasing such as mules, ma- 
chinery, or anything on the farms, 
and later on it was shown we did 
have to go to an extra expense, and 
we found out, according to Mr. 
Brahan, we had contracted out 750 
men more than it was best for our 
own farms, and the prison popula- 



tion would not justify it at that time. 
We carried out those contracts to the 
best of our ability. Then the Brazos 
river valley as a cane growing propo- 
sition did as much as anything else 
toward causing these losses. In the 
first place each contract called for a 
stipulated number of men on the 
shares and contracts. We were not 
able to furnish the men in 1911 to 
several of these contractors and 
thereby a failure of crops was due to 
that. The lands were poorly culti- 
vated on account of not having a suffi- 
cient number of men to cultivate them 
and then in the spring of 1911 it was 
very wet. It was a very wet year. 
The Shaw farm was almost com- 
pletely lost, and I think the great 
reason for that was on account of it 
being an extraordinary wet year, as 
you will remember. We draw from 
our share farms that year as many 
men as we could to go on our cane 
farms, and it promised to be the 
greatest cane crop ever grown. We 
took every man out of the factories 
we could get to go to the farms, and 
all that labor had to be utilized. 
There was a great deal of money ex- 
pended in sugar mills, and another 
expense was in buying high class 
mules. High class machinery is one 
reason for this deficit, and we also 
had a short cotton crop. 

Q. — How much expenditure was in- 
volved in improvements on the sugar 
mills since the present commission 
went in office ? 

A. — Approximately over $100,000; 
maybe more. 

Q. — In your judgment, is it a good 
investment for the State to attempt 
to manufatcure and refine sugar? 

A. — I think the cane proposition 
will break the State of Texas if they 
keep it up and try to run it as a 
State proposition. I made a recom- 
mendation to the commission as early 
as 1911 in that connection which was 
carried out and agreed to with the 
exception of two propositions, and 
that was that we begin on the line 
of policy in reference to how we would 
work our men. We determined just 
what factories we would operate; the 
amount of men in each factory; vnfc 
amount on each farm, and if we have 
a surplus what to do with it'. I 
recommended that we start out and 
employ a superintendent and purchas- 
ing department and sales department 
separate and distinct. We had cal- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



Ill 



culated to build a furniture factory 
at Rusk. About the time all arrange- 
ments were made in that line a fire 
destroyed that building. We intended 
to rebuild that building, but had no 
means to do it with, and we could 
not borrow the money, and we worked 
those men to the best advantage we 
could until they were shipped out 
again to the cane farms in the fall, 
and we had only a class of men at 
Rusk who were not able to do that 
heavy work in the Brazos bottom. 
Now, the Rusk proposition makes a 
very bad showing in any way you 
take it. When these buildings burned 
the grounds had to be cleaned out 
and the old mahcinery worked over. 
That is one of the reasons the results 
look so bad at Rusk. 

Q. — The machine shops at Rusk, is 
that necessary on acount of the State 
railroad ? 

A. — It was largely maintained by 
the State railroad? It did all the 
mahcine work for the State railroad. 

Q. — Has the State railroad in your 
judgment been an aid to the peniten- 
tiary ? 

A. — It would have been the best 
thing for the State if it had been 
given away. 

Q. — Have you thought it an aid or 
not? 

A. — I think it is a detriment. It 
does not produce anything. It costs 
from $1000 to $1200 to operate it in 
excess of receipts. The condition of 
it is in bad shape. 

Q. — When the Commission took 
charge of the penitentiary system 
what about your raw material? Did 
you have an excess or was it run 
down? 

A. — We had practically nothing, 
and it was the old story, the financial 
agent had made a clean-up entirely. 
There were no shoes, and the first 
thing we did was to buy about $1700 
worth of shoes to put on the convicts. 
There was no material in the black- 
smith shoo nor anywhere else. 

Q. — How much did the revenue 
from the lease system depreciate 
after the new law went into opera- 
tion? 

A. — The recoris show it brought 
in from $45,000 to $65,000 per 
month. We have lost that straight 
revenue. 

Q. — What is the average monthly 
expense to operate the penitentiary? 

A. — I could not tell you. I think 



between $75,000 and $85,000 per 
month. 

Q.— Under the lease system that 
was practically offset? 

A. — Yes, sir. There is another 
increase in expense we have now that 
the lease system did not. We pay 
the guards $5 per month more than 
the old system paid. 

Q. — Will you state to the Com- 
mittee what the increase in pay of 
the guards amounts to? 

A. — The guards and all I would 
say about $35,000 or $40,000, ap- 
proximately. 

Q. — What is the cause for increas- 
ing the number of guards? 

A. — I don't think we have in- 
creased the number of guards, but 
according to the pro rata we employ 
more guards today than used to be 
employed. 

Q. — Have you a statement show- 
ing the financial appropriations to 
the penitentiary up to date? 

A. — The Legislature made two ap- 
propriations; one fcr $100,000 and 
one for $450,000. This year also 
the appropriation, I think, was 
$150,000. 

Q. — How was that money applied* 

A. — Well, in my opinion, it was 
all applied for operating expenses. 

Q. — Do you think if you could get 
the penitentiary system on a cash 
basis, now that you have got the 
system somewhat systematized, it 
could be maintained on a cash basis? 

A. — Yes, sir; I believe it could 
be done. Now if a business man 
went through his shops and he found 
a man who was not up to now, he 
would discharge him. Our employes 
are forced on us. When these things 
are operated in a business manner 
this peniteneiary can be made self 
sustaining. 

Q. — You mean the convicts? 

A. — Yes, sir; or the men who 
work in the shops. 

Q. — Of course, you have the right 
to discharge any man other than the 
convicts? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In arriving at the amount of 
loss due by fires, how do you figure 
that? Do you figure the cost of 
restoring the plant, or charge up the 
value of the plant before the fire? 

A. — We tried to take the cost 
from the value of the building or 
material. 

Q. — What would the cost be to 
the State to restore the plants to an 



112 



Report and Findings of 



operating basis? 

A. — I should say about $50,000 
or $60,000. 

Q. — Does that include the replen- 
ishing of the material destroyed? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Does it include the machin- 
ery destroyed? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Approximately up to date it 
has cost in money $50,000 or $60,- 
000 to restore the loss by fires? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you mean that applies to 
Huntsville alone? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, what about the Rusk 
situation? How much replenishing 
have you done there? 

A. — The box factory at Rusk is 
the principal item of expense, and 
they bought quite a lot of machinery 
for the machine shop. We had one 
of the best machine shops in Texas 
at the time of the last fire. We had 
bought about $18,000 worth of new 
machinery. I am giving you this ap- 
proximately. I don't know just what 
the box factory figured out to cost. 
It would be a hard matter to get 
at what it cost, and I think they used 
about all the lumber there for the 
dairy, and I would say that it would 
cost about $30,000 or $35,000 
equipped. 

By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 

Q. — Now, in regard to the land 
values; how were they valued; by 
whom valued, and when were these 
values fixed? That is, the farms. 
The reason I ask this is we notice 
the values are changed. 

A. — We took the value of the lands 
in 1911, you understand, in making 
the inventory for the beginning of 
1911, and placed a valuation on these 
lands. 

Q. — The appraised value on these 
lands; by whom were they fixed as 
they are fixed today? (Refers to 
audit book.) 

A. — Now, the value of that land, 
that is, the inventory for 1911, the 
Commission agreed with Mr. Her- 
ring, or Mr. Barton, that they should 
select a man and the Commission 
would select two men, and they 
would go over the inventory. They 
employed a man named Pete Wal- 
ton and Mr. Rand. Mr. Rand was 
the chief clerk under Mr. Herring in 
the criminal records department. 
They made records of everything. 
Now, in 1912 and 1911 Major Dim- 



mitt and Mr. Stubblefield, assistant 
secretary to the Commission, were 
requested to go with Mr. Barton, and 
they were the three men who made 
the values for 1912 and 1911. 

Q. — In other words, these gentle- 
men were supposed to make an ap- 
praisement of what they thought the 
land actually worth? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, in regard to mules; the 
disbursement shows large expendi- 
tures were made by the Commission. 
What about the mule stock on hand 
at the time you took charge? 

A. — I did not get to see these 
mules until some time in February 
and some of the mules were in fine 
condition. Some were not in so good 
a condition, but a great many were 
very old mules. 

Q. — How many head do you own 
there now? 

A. — About 2 000 head. 

Q. — How much have you increased 
the number of work stock since you 
came in? 

A. — About six to eight hundred 
head. 

Q. — Speaking of cane; I notice in 
looking through the disbursement ac- 
counts there are a number of items 
of free labor, cutting cane. Will 
you explain to the Committee why 
free labor was used in cutting this 
cane? 

A. — We did not have enough con- 
vict labor. 

Q. — Did the Prison Commission 
enter into these contracts or inherit 
them? 

A. — They inherited them. 

Q. — I notice a number of items 
for carpenter work. For instance, 
in December, 1911, there are a num- 
ber of expenditures for carpenter 
work, approximately something over 
$1000. What character of work was 
that? 

A. — The bulk of the carpenter 
work was on the farms, such as pris- 
on buildings, stables, laundries, etc. 

Q. — What kind of water supply 
have you on the Clemens farm? 

A. — Artesian water. 

Q. — How deep did you have to 
go for water? 

A. — 500 or 600 feet. 

Q. — Can you explain about the 
purchase of such supplies as beef? 

A. — The beef has been bought in 
several different ways. Some of it 
has been bought from packers; some 
from private dealers; and sometimes 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



113 



on instructions from the Commis- 
sioners to the farm managers to buy- 
it, and sometimes we buy it on reg- 
ular contract after advertising. 

Q. — How long do your contracts 
usually run? 

A. — Contracts at this place have 
run twelve months, but I don't think 
there have been any contracts of 
any length of time on the farms. 
We advertise, however, for a con- 
tract for twelve months' supply of 
beef. 

Q. — Take a creditor of the prison 
system like Armour & Co., where you 
buy large amounts of meat, would 
those people sell goods to the State 
under the same provisions, as to other 
parties? 

A. — All goods are purchased in the 
name of Mr. Tittle for the system, 
and my understanding is the packers 
have been very reasonable in those 
lines. 

Q. — Mr. Cabell, you went over many 
reasons why you accounted for the 
debts of the prison system, and I 
would like for you to state to the 
Committee what in your opinion has 
been the result of any political agita- 
tion among the convicts as to treat- 
ment and work, etc.? 

A. — I think to a certain extent it 
had a tendency to disorganize and 
had the tendency to make some men 
believe the were more important than 
they were, and it started confusion 
among them that caused numerous 
muitinies, but I think the actions of 
the Commission got all those things 
straightened out. 

Q. — Do you think this affected the 
farm labor? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so to a certain 
extent. I don't think it should be 
laid to the door of any particular per- 
son, but I think some of the guards 
and employes presumed a great deal 
on their importance. My views are 
this: This administration was very 
favorable to Mr. Colquitt is carrying 
his re-election. Mr. Herring was a 
very popular man with the guards, 
and I think a great many of the men 
knew he was opposed to Governor 
Colquitt and they took action not very 
favorable to the State. Some resigned 
afterwards and some resigned before. 
You gentlemen would have to see very 
closely into this proposition to judge 
it. I want to be just about it. We 
were at times on the eaves of several 
outbreaks. 



Q. — What in your opinion is the 
ability of the average able-bodied con- 
vict at the present time compared to 
what they were twenty-five years ago? 

A. — I don't think we get as good a 
class of men physically as we used to 
get. They are an inferior lot of men 
compared with what they used to be. 
There are a great number of men who 
come into the penitentiary badly dis- 
eased. I would like for you while 
here to talk to the prison physician 
as he has examined over 3,000 men 
personally, and he will explain that 
we are getting a great many from the 
cities who come from the slums and 
are physically weak, and this will also 
apply to the negroes. 

Q. — Does that in ■ your opinion 
handicap the farming operations? 

A. — Yes, sir; I believe it does, and 
I don't believe you could take two bats 
and make the men do as much work, 
and I think it will take a bat to make 
a negro work fourteen hours. 

Q. — How long does it take a negro 
who comes from the city to make a 
fair farmer after he gets on the farm? 

A. — It is simply owing to the ne- 
gro. I would think it a very short 
time, however, for a negro physically 
able to work. Four or five months, 
or probably less. 

Q. — There are some rather large ex- 
penditures during your administra- 
tion. I notice there are $1500 
spent for dogs during your adminis- 
tration. 

A. — I will let Mr. Brahan explain 
that. 

Mr. Brahan states: 

When the Commission came in we 
decided we would not let anything 
on the state farm be owned by anyone 
except the State. It has been my ex- 
perience and observation where a dog 
was owned by a guard he hated to 
see his dog abused or killed and they 
are worth from $25.00 to $50.00 a- 
piece, and I recommended that the 
State buy all the dogs needed. 

Q. — That was more the result of a 
change of policy? 

A. — Yes, s i- r. There are no dogs in 
t Ti e system but what are owned by 
the State. 

Q. — Who does the cooking for the 
prison system? 

A. — The convicts. 

Q. — What are those items for cooks 
we see in the expense account? 

A.— That is overtime. On Sunday 
they are allowed $1.00 but that is 
overtime. The bookkeeper can explain 
that. 



114 



Report and Findings of 



By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — You made some statements 
about the State railroad. Who regu- 
lated the rates? 

A. — The State Railroad Commission. 

Q. — Has there been any disagree- 
ments on the part of the connecting 
lines? 

A. — I could not tell you. 

Q. — The road is under the general 
supervision of the railroad commis- 
sion? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now I want to ask you some 
questions in regard to selling. I 
notice on your books, when the com- 
mission took charge, you had accounts 
receivable, $61,000.00 and something, 
and in December 31st, 1912, you have 
accounts receivable as $206,000.00 
with $118,000.00 as doubtful. Don't 
you think it would be better for the 
Commission to make sales exclusively 
for cash. 

A. — I think it would be best when 
they can do it. They have got to sell 
the products they manufacture the 
same way other industries do, and also 
their farm products. 

Q. — Would it not be better to hold 
the material and let it go for cash 
rather than get doubtful accounts? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What do you mean in this audit 
report when you classify doubtful ac- 
counts as $118,000.00 for 1912? 

A. — That would be the result of the 
financial department's audit. 

Q. — What is the amount of the Eld- 
ridge account? 

A— $115,000.00. 

Q. — Is that included in these doubt- 
ful acounts? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would it not be better to get 
to selling on a cash basis? 

A. Yes, sir; I think it would be 
best. I have always thought the sys- 
tem should have a purchasing and 
sales department, and we should be 
looking out all the time for making 
the best purchases and selling our 
products to the best advantage. 

Q. — -Would you require him to sell 
either for cash or secure orders? 

A. — I think I would. However, 1 
think there are some men you could 
not do business only with an open ac- 
count who are perfectly good, and I 
believe I would try to put it on a 
business basis something similar to 
Sanger Bros, or some other business 
institution. 

By Judge W. O. Dime: 



Q. — What is the rule in reference 
to the per diem of convicts? 

A. — We pay that to all convicts. 

Q. — What per cent of the convicts 
show they are deserving? 

A. — I think the large per cent of 
them. 

Q. — Can you give an estimate in 
round numbers as to what the State 
farms have produced for the years 
1909. 1910 as compared with 1911 and 
1912? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — I mean the sales. 

A.— The sales for 1909 and 1910 
were greater than for 1911 and 1912. 
I think, notwithstanding the freeze 
and loss on the Clemens farm in 1911, 
our sales for cane was larger in 1911 
than in 1910, but we did not make 
so much corn and cotton. 

Q. — Now, about the Shaw lease; 
when does that expire? 

A. — In January. 

Q. — Now, in regard to trusties, it 
has been suggested more men could 
be made trusties. What is the per 
cent of escaped trusties ? 

A. — We have made 902 convicts 
trusties and you heard what Mr. 
Herring had to say about the trusties 
yesterday, and I will — 

Q. — You have had charge here 
about two years? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Don't you think you are at the 
present time better prepared from 
your experience to handle the prison 
system and come nearer making it a 
success than when you first came into 
office? 

A. — I think so. I hope so. I think 
I have been benefited by my exper- 
ience. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Are you familiar with the in- 
ventory of the property made Sep- 
tember 1, 1910, as well as the in- 
ventory made January 20, 1911, when 
you first came into office? Are you 
familiar with that inventory? 

A.^Let me catch that? 

Q. — There was an inventory taken 
when you first came. into office? 

A. — Yes, sir; on January 20. 

Q. — In the same audit there is an 
inventory taken on September 1, 1910, 
Are you familiar with that? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Can you state why there should 
be a diflerence in the value of the 
Huntsville buildings of $17,000 in four 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



115 



months; that is, from September 1, 
1910, to January 20, 1911? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — Can you state why there should 
be a decrease at Rusk of $212,900 ? 

A. — I would not know why it should 
be unless it was misconstrued. 

Q.— On September 1, 1910, there 
was a value of $720,650 put on it, 
and on the date on which you took 
charge there was a value of $507,750 
put on it, or a difference of $212,900. 
Now, again in the Clements farm ac- 
count there was a decrease durmg 
the same period of $53,982. Have 
you any information that you could 
give us as to why they decreased that 
inventory ? 

A. — No, sir; I do not know. 

Q. — The Imperial farm live stock 
account during the same period of 
four months shows a decrease in the 
inventory of $17,130. Have you any 
information as to why the inventory 
for that farm should be decreased? 

A. — No, sir; I could not tell you. 

Q. — The discrepancies appeared so 
large in these instances that I de- 
sired to call your attention to them. 

A. — Now, does that apply to just 
the stock ? 

Q. — Yes, sir. 

A. — Well I could not tell. I was 
never on the farm until after that. 

Q. — Now, in regard to the invento- 
ries, you have stated how the invento- 
ries were made, and I wish to ask you 
if you were entirely satisfied with the 
valuations represented in the inven- 
tory made at the time you took charge 
and did you believe it represented r 
reasonable valuation of the property ? 

A. — I can't say I ever looked at it 
with the same degree of energy I ; 
should had it been a private con- 1 
cern's, but the last time we inven- 
toried it we tried to select men who , 
were mechanics, builders, etc., and 
thew measured the walls and passed 
on the buildings, lands, etc. I valued 
it as a penitentiary proposition. 

Q. — Have you in mind the total 
permanent improvements added to the 
system since you came into office, and 
can you state approximately the total 
amount invested? 

A. — I think the report shows we 
invoiced in improvements of various 
kinds amounting to $685,000. This 
is for shops, prison buildings, dairies, I 
sugar mill improvements, ditches, i 



clearing land, and all those various 
items. 

Q. — Do you happen to know how 
much money was received by your 
administration for convict labor? 

A. — I think we got about $25,000 
or $30,000 per month the first year. 

Q. — How long after you came into 
office before the lease expired? 

A. — Some of them were taken off 
before the end of the year. 

Q. — And you allowed the parties 
having the contracts to relinquish 
the men? 

A. — That was because we needed 
these men to take off the cane crop, 
and we accepted them partly for that 
reason. 

Q. — From your observation of the 
manufacturing departments, what 
would you recommend continuing and 
what new ones would you recommend 
establishing ? 

A. — I would recommend keeping 
the wagon and blacksmith shop, and 
work just the amount of men neces- 
sary and no more. I think the boiler 
and machine shop necessarily carried 
with it a foundry, and they should 
be maintained at a profit. I think 
the furniture factory, if operated 
along certain lines could be made 
profitable, and I think the tailor and 
shoe shop could be operated sucessful- 
ly, not only for our own use, but for 
every institution in the State of 
Texas. I think there should be a 
cotton mill built and located by which 
we could make our own cloth, and 
I think we could make all the quilts 
and mattresses for our own depart- 
ments. 

Q. — Would you abolish the custom 
work in the shops? 

A. — No, sir; I would do the custom 
work. 

Q. — You stated you would operate 
the furniture factory along certain 
lines. 

A. — I would find out what furniture 
was most needed, or suitable for a 
ouick market, but I would not try 
r ^ make a general line of furniture. 
I think the cotton mill could make the 
c'oth and the tailor shop could make 
all the overalls, etc. 

Q. — How many civilian employees 
have you in each manufacturing 
-;!ant? 

A. — In the furniture factory two; 
blacksmith, two; machine shop, two; 
one in the tailor shop and one in the 



116 



Report and Findings of 



shoe shop. There are no guards in 
the furniture factory and none in the 
blacksmith and wagon shop. 

Q. — Have you reduced the inside 
guards during your administration? 

A. — About this time we have about 
the same number on account of the 
men being scattered. Now, 75 men 
could be taken care of by one manager 
in the furniture department just as 
easily as he could take care of 25 
men, and the foremen think it is a 
great deal better without guards. 

Q. — What saving do you think 
could be effected by having a cen- 
trally located warehouse for distrib- 
uting supplies to each farm? 

A. — Well, I thought when we first 
came here we should establish a 
warehouse at Houston or some other 
centrally located point. We are 
shipping some things direct from 
some places, but it would cut some 
figure with some things, and I don't 
know that I would be strictly in 
favor of that unless there were some 
changes made in reference to opera- 
tion. 

Q. — Does your experience justify 
the opinion that all the Commission- 
ers should be at Huntsville? 

A. — Yes, sir. I think the Com- 
mission should be as much together 
as possible. I think it is a very 
wise provision. 

Q. — In other words, so long as 
the present law requires three Com- 
missioners, you would have them all 
together? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think we should 
live here and keep the Commission 
together, and everything that is 
done should be by the Commission 
and not by a Commissioner. 

Q. — Have you found it practica- 
ble to classify the men according to 
the provisions of the law? 

A. — That has been a hard propo- 
sition up to this time, and the reason 
of this is the constant changing of 
men, and in 1911 you will see we 
were put to a great expense, $12,000 
to $15,000, for the transportation of 
men from one farm to another. 

Q. — What is the result of your 
classifications, and have you any sug- 
gestions to make? 

A. — I think it is good. I think 
it is a method that is approved by 
most of the penal institutions of the 
United States. It is one of the ideas 
of promotion and reward. 

Q. — Will you state how the guards 
are paid for overtime? 



A. — I will illustrate it this way — 

Q. — I want to say I saw about 120 
hours consecutive time put in by 
one guard. I want to ask how some 
men could stand that much service? 

A. — That is something I over- 
looked. 

Q. — Do you know what the cus- 
tom is? Is it frequently they put 
in overtime? 

A — Yes, sir. Say, there is a guard 
off duty for a week, then there will 
be another guard take that man's 
place. Sometimes they require a 
guard to work overtime, but the 
guard usually works about twelve 
hours per day. 

Q. — Did you buy the mules bought 
the last two years yourself? 

A. — Not all of them. 

Q. — In a general way, will you 
state the increased value of the in- 
vestment in live stock during your 
administration — the real value of 
the animals? 

A. — The class of mules we have 
had to buy has increased from 2E> 
to 35 per cent the last three or four 
years. It is a class of mules that 
is very salable. 

Q. — By reason of maintaining your 
present acreage in cane, what do 
you consider the increased invest- 
ment in live stock on that account? 

A. — We have bought over 1000 
head of mules and horses. 

Q. — In other words, the character 
of mules you must buy for the use 
on the cane farms are more costly 
than those used on any of the other 
places? 

A. — Yes, sir; they are the most 
costly we can buy. 

Q. — What would be the difference 
in the cost of equipping a cane farm 
and a cotton farm with mules? 

A. — I think a man could equip a 
cotton farm with one-half the equip- 
ment of a cane farm, but 40 per 
cent would be very reasonable on a 
mule. 

Q. — Do you think the per diem 
of the convicts affects the efficiency 
of their labor materially? 

A. — Well, I think the per diem 
rightfully applied is an incentive and 
encouragement, but under the pres- 
ent system it does but very little 
good, for they all get it. 

Q. — Is that your interpretation of 
the law? 

A. — Yes, sir; unless by bad con- 
duct they lose time. There are a 
great many who do not do enough 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



117 



to violate the rules, and then there 
are others who go and work with 
the same amount of interest as if 
they owned the shop themselves or 
were drawing $5 per day. Both of 
these men get their 10 cents per day 
and I don't think there is any in- 
centive about it. I believe it should 
be a business proposition. 

Q. — I don't believe I saw an item 
anywhere charging convicts with 25 
cents demerit and — 

A. — You will find it in the crim- 
inal records office. 

Q. — You could not estimate the 
amount credited back to the State? 
A. — No, sir; I could not estimate 
the amount. 

Q. — Have you any suggestions to 
make in regard to rewarding the 
convict other than the per diem 
that would work to a better advan- 
tage? 

A. — Yes, sir; it ought to be with- 
in the discretion of the Commission 
to allow it to a meritorious convict 
where the foreman reports weekly 
that he merits this per diem, and 
the foreman or guard should report 
that he has done his work in such 
and such a way, and there should 
be a per diem for the better class 
of men. I think a meritorious re- 
ward system should be an encourage- 
ment in every way. 

Q. — Have you been able to in- 
crease your trusty system during 
your administration? 

A. — You will find on the farms 
today a great many convicts occupy- 
ing positions as trusties that were 
taken out of the various shops. 
That was not accomplished by our 
administration and some of the 
trusties have been here a great many 
years. 

Q. — When a prisoner comes to the 
penitentiary, what is the first thing 
that is done with him? 

A. — When a prisoner first comes 
to the penitentiary he is first taken 
to the bath room and then he is 
given a new suit of clothes, his de- 
scription is taken, and then he goes 
before a doctor for examination, and 
then with the assistant warden's rec- 
ord and the doctor's record, the Com- 
mission and warden look over it and 
try to put the man physically where 
he is best adapted. 

Q. — Have you been able to classify 
the men according to age, or of- 



fenses, so as to keep the young men 
away from the hardened convicts? 

A. — We try to do this to the best 
of our ability. We can do it all 
right with the negroes, but of course 
we have a number of white men, 
young men, in the penitentiary and 
we also try to place them where they 
will be of the most service. 

Q. — How do you figure the 50 
cents charge for farm labor? 

A. — That is an arbitrary charge. 
Q. — In your judgment do you 
think it would pay the State to ex- 
tend the manufacturing industries? 
A. — Yes, sir; to the extent of 
what is the most marketable, and 
that would be easily ascertained. 
Mr. Herring is the only man that I 
have heard say that manufacturing 
industries of any kind could be made 
to pay. I was especially interested 
in that when 1 first came here. I 
would like to say when I first came 
here the shoe shop was under the 
charge of a guard who did not know 
any more about a shoe than I do. 
The shoe we are now making is a 
great improvement over the old shoe, 
and the same thing will apply to 
the products of the other manufac- 
turing industries. The men we 
have there now are capable to in- 
struct the convicts in regard to the 
manufacture of the different arti- 
cles. 

Q. — Do you know enough about 
the State purchasing department and 
the character of shoes and clothing 
they buy for the State institutions to 
know how they compare with what 
is made there? 

A. — In my opinion we make bet- 
ter articles here for the same amount 
of money, if not less. 

Q. — Have you any suggestions as 
to changes in the prison laws, or 
the prison business management, or 
the organization of any department 
in the prison system other than 
those presented to the committee? 

A. — I think this prison system 
should be put on a business basis, 
and I believe it should be a commis- 
sion of three men, and do not be- 
lieve there should be a separate duty 
for each one, and I believe there 
should be a general superintendent 
or manager that would have abso- 
lute control of everything. I am 
strictly against the one man propo- 
sition under the supervision of th6 
Governor. 



118 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — You believe in a superintend- 
ent? 

A. — Yes, sir; and in my opinion he 
should be a man of very strong, ex- 
cellent character and ability and be 
employed as general manager, and 
that he look after the work on the 
farms, etc., and the Commission to 
be* controlled largely by his reports 
and recommendations. The combi- 
nation of the two, I think, would be 
a good thing. 

Q. — What about the location of 
the prison system? Do you think 
Texas has lost anything by having 
a penitentiary separated from the 
main institution? 

A. — I don't want to go into that 
very broadly. However, I don't 
don't think there is any use of hav- 
ing two penitentiaries. I think we 
should have one penitentiary and 
have it properly equipped and the 
industries kept up to date as near 
as possible, and we should manufac- 
ture such articles for the trade as I 
have enumerated. 

Q. — Relative to the cultivation of 
cane, has the Prison Commission ex- 
perienced any serious difficulty in 
marketing its cane crop? 

A. — Yes, sir; they have had quite 
an experience in marketing their cane 
crop. 

Q. — In 1911 you had a large cane 
crop? 

A. — Yes, sir; a very large crop. 

Q. — Did you think probably you 
could mill it yourself? 

A. — Under our contract there was 
only one place we could mill it. The 
other was contracted to Mr. Eldridge. 

Q. — Did not the terms of the con- 
tract under which Mr. Eldridge ac- 
quired that road place you depend- 
ent on him? 

A. — So far as getting it to our own 
mill, it did. 

Q. — Will you please state to the 
Committee the facts regarding this 
contract? 

A. — The facts are according to the 
agreement between Mr. Eldridge and 
the prison system, that by giving him 
notice within a prescribed time he 
was to have an outlet over the Ram- 
sey road sold him by the system. 

Q. — What time was the sale made? 

A. — The sale was made the latter 
part of 1908 or early in the year 
1909. 

Q. — How long before the crop was 
ready to move were you required to 
give him notice? 



A. — I think about July. There is 
no dispute over that. 

Q. — Did he respond with the nec- 
essary preparations to moving the 
crop? 

A. — No, sir. We kept jacking him 
up in regard to putting the road in 
proper shape and he complained he 
could not do it for want of labor, 
and he made arrangements with Mr. 
Brahan and Mr. Tittle that if they 
would furnish the labor he would 
put the road in proper shape to 
take the cane out. 

Q. — Did they send the labor to 
him? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — He took the labor and applied 
it to the improvement of the road 
running to his mill? 

A. — The result was this road was 
not improved and we could not take 
the cane off, and we decided we 
would be compelled to sell him the 
cane, and it was provided if we did 
not mill the cane ourselves we would 
have to sell to Mr. Eldridge to mill 
the cane. We had to either sell the 
cane or sue him for damages. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Did he ever pay for that cane? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You really have not sold it to 
him yet? 

A. — We are living in hopes. 

Q. — Would you be willing to make 
an estimate of the decreased value 
to the cane crop of 1911 considering 
the conditions imposed on you 
through this contract and through 
Mr. Eldridge not taking advantage 
of this proposition? 

A. — No, sir; but I felt we should 
at least get the money for the cane 
which was cut off the farm. I think 
if we had gotten the road we could 
have gotten the money for what we 
delivered to him. 

Q. — Your expectations, from the 
size crop you had and the condition 
of the market were you would realize 
considerable money out of the crop 
that year instead of the amount re- 
ceived on account of having to sell 
to Mr. Eldridge? 

A. — Yes, sir. I think from three 
to five thousand would be very con- 
servative. It was generally conceded 
it was the largest crop raised in Tex- 
as and the largest price paid for 
sugar. 

Q. — Would you care to state in 
general the various ways you feel 
the system is placed at a disadvant- 
age through the existence of this con- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



119 



tract, both as to the working of the 
Imperial farm and the sale of the 
State railroad to Mr. Eldridge? 

A. — I think that the road in the 
condition it is — being in the hands 
of Mr. Eldridge, a private corpora- 
tion, and not being able to get out 
cane over it — forces us to sell our 
cane to him or some other mill. 

Q. — It is not practicable to get 
it to our own mill? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Your interpretation of the 
contract was the State was com- 
pelled to raise cane? 

A. — There was no stipulation re- 
quiring us to do so except for a 
term of three years. 

Q. — Now, as I understand it, the 
cane was sold by the State of Texas, 
at a stipulated price and according to 
the contract the State had to main- 
tain a certain acreage? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Was it more profitable for Mr. 
Eldridge to have the State raise 
cane and have him mill it after all 
the expense had been paid by the 
State? 

A. — I can hardly state what a fine 
trade Mr. Eldridge made, and he says 
himself it was worth $750,000 to 
him. I have always understood the 
mill was a very profitable thing. 

Q. — Who negotiated the trade on 
the part of the State? 

A. — Mr. Herring was general sup- 
erintendent; Mr. Gill was commis- 
sioner; Judge Ramsey and someone 
else — maybe Mr. Menshaw. There 
were four or five of them. 

Q. — What is the relationship be- 
tween the Gill who was commission- 
er and the Mr. Gill who is an at- 
torney at Houston? 

A. — The same man. This contract 
was drawn up by Gil and someone 
else, I think. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Do you think that this situa- 
tion affects the value of the Clemens 
farm to the system? 

A. — I think so; yes, sir. The 
Commission has been considering 
building a road out to the Anchor 
connection by which they could get 
their cane out to mill it. 

Q. — What do you think of the ad- 
visability of contracting it? 

A. — Some arrangements should be 
made with Mr. Eldridge, but I think 
the State should build the road. 

Q. — Would you rather build more 
railroad or sell the farm? 

A. — In view of the opinion ex- 



j pressed by Mr. Herring — that the 
; Clemens farm is suited only to the 
growing of cane — I would say, yes, 
1 sir. 

Q. — You think then the State of 
Texas should continue in the grow- 
ing of cane to a certain extent? 

A. — Yes, sir; not to a great ex- 
tent, however, and I believe all the 
cane should be grown on the Ram- 
sey farm. 

Q. — Now going back to the haz- 
ardous nature of cane crops, you 
have observed more or less closely 
for many years the result of growing 
cane in that portion of the country. 
How many successful years have we 
had in the last twenty-five? 

A. — I never saw a cane crop only 
by passing by a cane field on the 
train until I became associated with 
j the penitentiary business and at that 
time I simply went wild over- it, but 
from what was told me by men who 
I have had experience, they get a crop 
from every four to seven years. Our 
experience has been one crop out of 
every two years. 

Q. — Do you think, taking your own 
experience, the State would be justi- 
fied continuing or going deeper into 
the cultivation of the cane crop? 

A. — I think they should be cut- 
ting it out instead of putting it in, 
and I don't think it ought to be 
planted where it could not be irri- 
gated. Where it is irrigated it is 
doubly productive. It is a crop that 
requires summer rains. It should be 
where it can be irrigated. It is sus- 
ceptible to early frosts, and has to 
be taken care of right now when 
ready to work. Private individuals 
cannot work it successfully, I don't 
think. 

Q. — Do you know that large for- 
tunes have been sunk in the Ellis 
and Cunningham plantations? 

A. — I only heard it yesterday. I 
do not know it to be a fact. 

Q. — You know something of the 
purchase of those different proper- 
ties; how they were paid for, and 
! out of what funds. Now, in your 
judgment was the purchase payments 
of those properties made through the 
moneys received from the lease con- 
vict system? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think these fellows 
at $31 per month came nearer pay- 
ing for them than anything else. 

Q. — I mentioned this morning 
something as to the number of lease 
convict contracts there were when 



120 



Report and Findings of 



you came in office. Do you recall 
how many there were and with 
whom? 

A. — There were with the two rail- 
road forces about 800 men; at the 
T. W. House place they averaged 
about 9 men, and at times they 
would get up to about 115 men; the 
John D. Rogers place, sixty men; and 
the Steele place had about an equal 
number. 

Q. — You have familiarized your- 
self more or less with the operation 
of the system two or three years 
prior to the time which you took 
charge of the properties. Do you 
believe any of the manufacturing in- 
terests were operated at a profit at 
that time? 

A. — I have been told they did not. 
and I believe that from the way I 
find they operated them. I don't be- 
lieve they did from the fact that 
one or two old superintendents told 
me. if I wanted to make some money 
to cut out everything and go to con- 
tracting the convicts. Abolishing 
contracts was recommended by every 
superintendent for the last twenty- 
five years. It dates back to old Maj. 
Goree. 

Q. — Why was not this action taken 
sooner than it was? 

A. — I think there were folks that 
had convicts who wanted to keep 
them and then the Governors of Tex- 
as were confronted with the proposi- 
tion, "Could they risk it and be sure." 
Q. — You think the previous ad- 
ministrations appreciatel the condi- 
tion the penitentiary system would 
get into if they stopped the revenue? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you believe Governor 
Campbell approved of the discon- 
tinuance of the lease system during 
his term of office? 

A. — I don't think he did, and it did 
not become ettective until after 1911. 
All these contracts were inherited — 
everything. We made no new con- 
tracts in 1911. 

Q. — Did I understand you to say 
that Governor Colquitt did not abol- 
ish these lease contracts? 

A. — No, sir; the lease system was 
abolished under the Campbell admin- 
istration, and the lease contracts 
were to expire between the years 
1911 and 1914. 

Q. — I believe a law was passed 
providing no more lease contracts 
could be entered into? 

A. — No, sir. I think the law is all 
contracts must expire by 1914. 



Q. — You are familiar with Section 
4 8 of the law which provides for the 
disposition of corpses? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is your opinion in regard 
to this law? 

A.— I think it should be remod- 
eled. 

Q. — What changes should be 
made? 

A. — Convicts should be buried at 
the expense of the penitentiary sys- 
tem, and if the relatives want them 
they should be turned over to them 
at their expense. We have had some 
corpses shipped and returned to us 
for burial, and their relatives would 
not receive them for burial. 
By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
Q. — Don't you think it is possible 
for the penitentiary system to deal 
with people who are of average re- 
sponsibility? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think it has been done 
in the past? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Average responsibility? 
A. — Yes, sir. However, the rec- 
ords show a great amount of ac- 
counts here I know nothing about. 
Q. — Now in regard to the Clemens 
farm, how much acreage is neces- 
sary to keep, the sugar mill, such as 
we have, on the Clemens farm, in 
successful operation? 

A. — That mill has a capacity of 
1000 tons per day, -and the average 
cane crop is about fifteen tons to the 
acre, or the mill could handle about 
70 acres per day. 

Q. — It would not be profitable for 
the mill to run just a few days? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What tonnage would it take 

to profitably run the Clemens plant? 

A. — About 60,000 tons, and that 

would require about 4000 acres of 

cane for 60 days. 

Q. — How many acres on the Clem- 
ens farm suitable for cane? 

A. — I would consider about 1500 
acres. 

Q. — How much improvements have 
we on the Clemens farm? 

A. — About $300,000; maybe $325,- 
000 worth. 

Q. — When was that mill built? 
A. — Under Sayers' administration. 
Q. — Has there been considerable 
expense put on the mill since the 
Commissioners were put in charge? 
A. — Yes, sir; a great deal of im- 
provements — about $75,000 or $80,- 
000 the last two years, more or less. 



Penitentiary 'Investigating Committee. 



121 



Q. — If you have only 1500 acres 
of cane on the place, then that one 
place would not sustain a sugar mill? 

A. — No, sir. The Commission 
thought of building a railroad from 
the Clemens farm to Freeport. 

Q. — In what way will that benefit 
our sugar plant? 

A. — It would give us better freight 
rates. 

Q. — But why would that get 
enough cane to run the sugar mills? 

A. — There are several parties who 
raise cane who could ship it to the 
Clemens farm. We have a number 
of railroad connections between the 
Ramsey farm and the Velasco ter- 
minal and Anchor. 

Q. — How much cane have you 
planted on the Ramsey farm? 

A. — 1180 acres. 

Q. — How many miles of railroad 
does that require? 

A. — Seven or eight. 

Q. — Tell us about the cost of it. 

A. — The railroad engineer made a 
survey of the road built there by the 
penitentiary system from Anchor to 
Ramsey, and he put the cost valua- 
tion at $76,000. 

Q. — The road built by the peniten- 
tiary system shows it cost them $47,- 
000 not counting the convict labor. 
Now I understand you to say fifteen 
tons is called a good average crop 
and you can depend on that in how 
many years? 

A. — The majority of the men state 
they count on good crops from four 
to seven years, and that fifteen tons 
was considered a good average crop. 

Q. — Did you ever think of the ad- 
visability of doing away with cane 
and growing cotton, or something 
else? 

A. — I stated I would be very much 
in favor of limiting the cane crop 
and putting in something else. 

Q. — In the sale of the Imperial 
sugar farm was there not a separate 
contract, and did not that contract 
with Mr. Eldridge, who represented 
the vendors, provide that he make 
certain railroad constructions? 

A. — I don't know. I believe the 
contract stated we were to retain 
$15,000 as earnest money, and it 
would be forfeited if the road was 
not built. 

Q. — Do you think from your ex- 
perience the last two years the state 
needs any more sugar mills? 
A. — No, sir. 



Q. — Don't you think the state has 
been exceptionally generous in tak- 
ing over cane plantations? 

A. — No, sir; I don't believe the 
State has paid any too much money 
for the properties they have bought. 
Q. — Has sugar cane growing 
proven unprofitable to the individ- 
ual farmer? 

A. — Well, I don't know — I don't 
think we have paid any too much 
for the lands bought. 

Q. — One other proposition, I want 
to bring to your mind, you stated 
this morning in regard to cooks — 

A. — That should have all been 
overtime for cooks and for barbers. 

Q. — Are the barbers they allowed 
overtime for their work? 

A. — Yes, sir. There are no cooks 
employed, or barbers employed, in 
the system. 

Q. — You stated, I believe, how 
much the Commission had invested 
in permanent improvements since 
the Commissioners took charge of 
this property? 

A. — I think it is about $685,000. 

Q. — Were these improvements 
made at a time when we had no 
money to pay for them? 

A. — Yes, sir; but we thought they 
were needed badly. Some of these 
improvements might have been de- 
ferred, and would have been defer- 
red if we had not been in the great- 
est need of them. We were borrow- 
ing up to the last minute, and we 
felt very certain of meeting the larg- 
er part of the indebtedness. 

Q. — The law provides, Mr. Cabell, 
that the Commissioners receive a 
certain amount of salary, and that 
they have a house to live in? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you build any of these 
houses? 

A. — Yes, sir; we could not rent a 
house in this town and we were ab- 
solutely compelled to build. 

Q. — Do you charge any rent to 
your employes? 

A. — Yes, sir; they were charged 
rent. 

Q. — Were any changes made in 
regard to their salary? 

A. — Yes, sir; there was a decrease 
in the salary. Mr. Haynes' was de- 
creased early in the year and Mr. 
Jordan's was decreased last year. 

Q. — What salary does Mr. Haynes 
get in money? 

A. — $2000 per year and his house. 



122 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — They get their salary and their 
house rent free? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Anything else? 

A. — Water and light. 
Q. — How about labor about the 
house? 

A. — Each one of the State's houses 
have been allowed a servant. 

Q. — Under the present law you 
have provided better shoes and 
clothing for the convicts? 

A. — Yes, sir; we think so. 

Q. — What do you think enters into 
the increased cost of the convicts? 
Is it because of better food and better 
clothing ? 

A. — In my opinion, it is a better 
quality of everything. 

Q. — You think that accounts for 
part of the additional expenses of the 
penitentiary system? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — Have we a surplus of convict 
labor on hand? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You have more labor units 
than you have employment? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Diverting from the present 
financial condition, what effect would 
it have on the penitentiary system if 
a certain number of these convicts 
were recommended for clemency? 
How many do you think could be par- 
doned from the penitentiary in justice 
to the public, and in justice to the 
convicts themselves? 

A. — Several hundred men. 

Q. — As many as 400 men? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — And you think they ought to 
be pardoned? 

A. — Yes, sir. I would like to pass 
on each individual case, however. I 
judge a good deal by this; we paroled 
62 men, and out of that parole there 
were four or five life-time men. Some 
of them have been paroled about two 
years, and I believe we have had 
only two men who have absolutely 
violated the parole law, and one man 
technically violated it. 

Q. — If there were as many as four 
hundred pardoned from the peniten- 
tiary it would relieve the item of ex- 
pense about $80,000 per year. Of 
course, from that would be deducted 
their net earnings, and that would 
have to be taken into consideration. 
I believe you stated yesterday that 
the wagon manufacturing business is 
a profitable industry. Will you state 



whether or not you think you could 
find a permanent market for all the 
products. 

A. — Yes, sir. We have had no trou- 
ble selling wagons from the shop. 

Q. — And it would be your idea that 
the tailor and shoe shop should be 
operated up to a certain capacity in- 
asmuch as you have a market for 
these products with the State itself? 

A. — Yes, sir; and I would not main- 
tain any shop beyond its known 
market. 

Q. — If the wagon manufacturing 
department is a profitable industry 
about what per cent of the convicts 
could you use to advantage if it 
were enlarged ? 

A. — One hundred and fifty men. 

Q. — How many have you employed 
there now? 

A. — About seventy men. However, 
this number will vary. 

Q. — Don't you think it would be to 
the State's interest to specailize to 
something like that, and at the same 
time be giving the convicts an edu- 
cation that will be of value to them 
when they go out into the world? 

A.— Well, I don't know. 

Q. — You are not prepared to advise 
this Committee it would be best for 
the State to extent its operations on 
cane? 

A. — No, sir; I would not. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — It was stated yesterday the 
political agitation last year was an 
element of loss to the prison system 
by reason of the fact that the im- 
pression was abroad if there was a 
change in the administration that 
those who led in trouble would be 
rewarded for it. 

A. — I don't think so, but I think 
there were some fools around here 
who thought they were being backed 
up, or they tried very hard to make 
that impression. 

Q. — Was it sufficient to be con- 
sidered as a factor in the produc- 
tiveness of labor here? 

A. — Probably for awhile, but that 
did not apply to every part of the 
system. 

Q. — What part of the system did 
it apply to? 

A. — Mostly on the outside. It ap- 
plied more to the white men who 
were on the outside. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



123 



Q. — How long did that affect the 
productiveness? 

A. — I did not figure it cut much 
figure. It was more effective in the 
way of good discipline, but it was 
nothing serious. 

q. — Mr. Cabell, how about the Shaw 
farm? Have you been to the Shaw 
farm lately? 

A. — I have not been there since the 
first of the year. 

Q. — How many times have you been 
there in all? 

A. — Four or five times. 

Q. — How often does Mr. Brahan 
visit the Shaw farm? 

A. — About the same number of 
times I have been there, and our 
inspector, Judge Campbell, makes his 
regular visits. 

Q. — When the Commissioners can- 
not go to the different farms do you 
send the inspector? 

A. — Judge Campbell occupies the 
position as parole man and inspector. 
It is his business to look after the 
parole, and while there he makes a 
special inspection of all conditions, 
and everything in general. 

Q. — Does he make out a written 
report ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, is the Rusk Penitentiary 
visited regularly by the Commission- 
ers every month? 

A. — The Rusk Penitentiary is 
visited quite often. Mr. Tittle and 
I go there quite regularly. 

q. — Do you go there monthly? 

A. — Sometimes we go oftener. A 
monthly statement is made of all the 
visits. Mr. Tittle goes there quite 
often. 

Q. — Do you consider it possible to 
operate the Shaw farm profitably, it 
being so distantly located from the 
rest of the penitentiary system? 

A. — It has disadvantages on ac- 
count of the distance, and it has 
another disadvantage. We are about 
twelve miles from the railroad, and 
we have to haul everything to and 
from the railroad. 

Q. — What is the name of the rail- 
road point? 

A.— DeKalb. 

Q. — Now, in regard to the Rusk 
Penitentiary, the box factory, there 
is about the only profitable industry 
being operated, is it not? 

A. — Well, it is the principal indus- 
try The reports from the foundry 
make a very good showing, but, of 



course, a great deal of it has been 
railroad work — keeping the engines 
in repair, etc. 

Q. — How many men are employed 
in the box factory? 

A. — Fifty-two. They have had as 
high as seventy and as low as forty. 

Q. — How do you get your logs in 
there ? 

A. — Over the Texas railroad. 

Q. — Where do 3~ou market the 
boxes? 

A. — They are shipped abroad. 

Q. — Are they shipped to Galves- 
ton? 

A. — I think most of the shipments 
have gone to Galveston and New Or- 
leans. 

Q. — Now as to the Huntsville im- 
provements; I have before me im- 
provement account at Huntsville 
showing from January 2 0, 1911, to 
December 21, 1911, $49,166.67 in 
improvements, and I find some items 
of labor and material charged up. 
The next item is convict labor. What 
is this item of labor and material? 

A. — That should be for labor other 
than convicts. 

Q. — Now just a little further down 
they have carpentering, $4612.37. Is 
that other than convict labor? 

A. — I don't know about that. I 
think not, however. 

Q. — Is that carpenter labor em- 
ployed to improve the Huntsville 
penitentiary outside labor? 

A. — Several carpenters do the 
work. You will have to ask the 
bookkeeper about that. 

Q. — What I am trying to ascer- 
tain there is an item of $3718.60 
for convict labor, and then there 
are other labor items of $6374.11, 
$4612.37 and $557.40 which seems 
to be charged up to labor. 

A. — The bookkeeper can tell you 
better about that than I can. 

Q. — Telephone system, $385.48. 
What does that mean? 

A. — We built a general telephone 
system inside the walls, and that is 
about what it cost us. 

Q. — You have a system with the 
central office inside the walls? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now I see here an item of 
$3225.95 for furniture in 1911. 

A. — That is improvements here at 
Huntsville. 

Q. — I find prison furniture and 
fixtures on January 20, was $9539.- 
7 and it was inventoried on Decem- 
ber 31 at $6793.81, showing a loss 



124 



Report and Findings of 



of $2745.89 during the year 1911 in 
the furniture and fixtures account. 

A. — I would like for you to ask 
the bookkeeper about that. 

Q. — And you can't account for the 
discrepancy? 

A. — No, sir; and I have no person- 
al knowledge of that question. 

Q. — Now in regard to the cane 
crop on the different farms, and 
other questions in connection with it, 
what was done with the tops of the 
cane raised on the farms? 

A. — I think they are lost and not 
used. I think the large part of it 
is lost. 

Q. — About what proportion of the 
stalk is a loss? 

A. — I could not tell you. I have 
never investigated it. Mr. Brahan 
could probably tell you. 

Q. — What I am trying to arrive 
at is there a large loss in the tops 
cut from the cane that could be 
used for feeding purposes at a profit? 
A. — I think it would be better 
for the State to put up silos and a 
great saving could be made, I think. 
Q. — Do you buy all the beef you 
use? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Never raise any beef? 
A. — Yes, sir; some, but it is the 
practice to buy the beef. 

Q. — Would it not be profitable to 
utilize the tops of the cane and raise 
beef? 

A. — We ought to raise on these 
farms everything we could use. 

Q. — Is there not also a large 
amount of general pasture wasted 
on the farms? 

A. — The general pasture only ap- 
plies on two farms. We could use 
it on the Clemens and Ramsey. There 
is practically no pasture on the Im- 
perial and Harlem. 

Q. — What becomes of the pea crop 
that is planted? 

A. — That crop is a fertilizer, but 
the crop has not been very produc- 
tive during the last two years. 
Q. — It is not harvested? 
A. — Yes, sir;' they harvest what 
they can. 

Q. — They don't can what they har- 
vest? 

A. — No. sir; I don't think so. 
Whenever the cane harvesting starts 
up you have no time for anything 
else, and the peas are largely wasted. 
Q. — You don't attempt to raise 
hogs? 

A. — Yes, sir; we are raising hogs 
on all the places. We lost 300 hogs 



at one place. We have some hogs 
at the Ramsey, Imperial and in fact 
a few at all the places. 

Q. — What do you do with the 
hogs? 

A. — The hogs have been shipped 
to the packers. The bulk of it goes 
to the packers and we buy it back 
from them as cured meat. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — In the reports I notice two 
shipments of hogs the government 
inspector condemned as having tu- 
berculosis. Was that totally lost? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many instances of this 
kind do you know about? 

A. — I don't know of any except a 
few head before that. These other 
gentlemen might tell you something 
about it. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — To what extent do you grow 
vegetables for the penitentiary sys- 
tem? 

A. — This year they are growing 
vegetables for the penitentiary sys- 
tem. This year they are growing 
more vegetables than ever before. 
We try to raise all the vegetables 
we use on the farm. 

Q. — Have you done that, or have 
you bought any canned vegetables? 

A. — We bought a good many can- 
ned vegetables. Now the House 
place had no garden, and the conse- 
quence was we shipped vegetables 
to them from the Harlem farm. 

Q. — All those farms have good 
vegetable soil? 

A. — Yes, sir; all of them. 

Q. — How far is the Rusk farm 
from the penitentiary? 

A. — About two and a half miles. 

Q. — Are there any houses or bar- 
racks about the farm? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What kind of road do they 
have to the farm? 

A. — A fairly good road. It is a 
little sandy in spots. 

Q. — About how many men do you 
keep employed on the Rusk farm? 

A. — About forty men. 

Q. — How many men does it take 
to guard the convicts at the Rusk 
farm? 

A. — Quite a few. However, most 
of the garden work is done by trus- 
ties. It takes about three guards 
on an average. 

Q. — Those men have to go from 
the prison every morning and return 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



125 



every evening, a distance of two and 
a half miles? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many horses, or work 
animals, are kept at Rusk? 

A. — Sixteen or eighteen head. 

Q. — Are they kept at the prison? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, I notice an item of the 
Goree farm where they are credited 
with $1900 worth of vegetables. 
Where were they sold? 

A. — To the penitentiary here. 

Q. — On what basis were they 
charged to you? 

A. — About 2 cents per pound. 
The penitentiary here is the only 
market for the Goree farm, and the 
price which is fixed in the operating 
account is largely an arbitrary 
price, and we give them what they 
were worth on fhe market. 

Q. — Now, reference was made yes- 
terday to provisions for managers, 
and it was stated no limit was placed 
on the amount of provisions fur- 
nished? 

A. — The agreement was they had 
a right for bacon, flour and staples 
of that kind. 

Q. — You have no way of telling 
how much provisions are taken from 
the various commissaries by the va- 
rious managers? 

A. — I doubt very much if any re- 
port is made out by the managers 
and the assistant managers. How- 
ever, they ought to be keeping ac- 
count of it. 

Q. — How many assistants do the 
managers have on each farm? 

A. — One to each camp. 

Q. — Some of the farms have sev- 
eral camps, do they not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Any others allowed provisions 
besides these two? 

A. — No, sir. Well, the doctor has 
the right to vegetables and feed for 
his horse. 

Q. — This report shows that today 
the total population of the Hunts- 
ville prison is 630 men, and you 
have 280 productive men? 

A. — That means those that work 
in the shops. 

Q. — The non-productive men are 
those who are in the asylums and 
hospitals and dark cells, etc.? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Indispensables. You have 
clerks thirteen — 

A. — Those clerks don't all belong 
to the Huntsville prison system. 



There is one in that room (indi- 
cating adjoining room), one in this 
room and three or four down stairs. 
That thirteen includes the men in 
the various offices. 

Q. — Another: Hospital attend- 
ants, thirteen. I notice there is 
about an average of fifteen or six- 
teen men in the hospital, with about 
thirteen attendants. Do you think 
it is necessary for that number of 
attendants? 

A. — That includes the attend- 
ants — ■ 

Q. — In the dining room you have 
about sixty? 

A. — It varies all the way from 
thirty-five to sixty. The surplus of 
labor is more than it should be. 

Q. — But if necessary you could re- 
duce the dining room down to just 
thirty-five or forty, could you not? 

A. — You see, Mr. Mayes, they all 
have to be waited on and eat inside 
of an hour. We generally pick the 
men who are capable for the work. 
We have more men here now than 
we need. Now, we have here build- 
ing tenders. Janitors are used in 
sweeping out the office. The build- 
ing tenders are those on the inside 
such as bed cleaners, etc. 

Q. — I suppose your experience 
shows you are using about the right 
number of men for building tenders, 
or do you have more than you need? 

A. — We could cut the per cent 
on all of them and make those build- 
ing tenders work like other labor. 
We could get along with less. 

Q. — Do you allow your dining 
room men overtime? 

A. — No, sir; we do not pay them 
overtime, for it is a job sought for 
by them, and we don't pay overtime 
there. 

Q. — You don't pay overtime for 
the cooks? 

A. — Yes, sir; and a good cook 
earns his money. It is a serious 
thing in the penitentiary to get 
cooks who are good ones. It does 
more good in obtaining good prison 
discipline than anything else nearly. 
It would almost pay the penitentiary 
to hire good men to do the cooking. 

Q. — How many men have you in 
the outside forces? 

A. — 103. 

Q. — Do you know how the out- 
side forces are distributed? 

A. — Thirty are cutting wood at 
the Goree farm. 



126 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — How far from the prison is 
that? 

A. — About three and a half miles. 

Q. — At what time do you start 
them out to cutting wood? 

A. — They go out in a wagon at 
7 o'clock and carry their dinner with 
them, and work eight hours. 

Q. — How long does it take them 
to get out there? 

A. — About three-quarters of an 
hour or nearly an hour. That is a 
pretty sandy road, and they do prob- 
ably eight hours' work. 

Q. — The hour that is lost going to 
the farm, is that included in the 
ten hours' work? 

A. — Yes, sir. Then we have a 
great number of men in what we 
call the '•dummy" — helping pile lum- 
ber, clean up and unload coal, etc. 

Q. — Do you really get much work 
from these outside forces? 

A. — It depends on the work. 

Q. — What do you do with the 
wood you cut off the Goree farm? 

A. — Burn it. We have to keep 
a good supply of wood on hand, and 
sometimes we are forced to shut 
down completely. 

Q. — Where do you get your coal? 

A. — From a Houston company; 
and when the fuel is gone we have 
to shut down. 

Q. — I notice a great pile of lum- 
ber in bad shape in the yard in the 
prison walls? 

A. — We had that piled under the 
supervision of the foreman of that 
shop, but we have no shed room for 
it, and we have a good deal of lum- 
ber piled up all over the country. 
Some of that is old seasoned lum- 
ber that has been here some little 
time. 

Q. — Now, you spoke of eight 
servants; where are they? 

A. — At this time two are at my 
house, one or two at Mr. Brahan's, 
one at Mr. -Haynes' and one at Mi*. 
Hordan's and one other at Mr. Tit- 
tle's. 

Q. — What is paid for these serv- 
ants on the outside? 

A. — Five dollars per month. We 
feed them and pay them for over- 
time. That is the rule by the mem- 
bers of the Commission. We did 
pay $10 per month for them, but 
under a ruling of the Commission 
they reduced it to $5. 

Q. — Now, in regard to the houses 
built by the State; three of those 



are occupied by the Commissioners, 
are they not? 

A. — Yes, sir. Mr. Palmer, who 
was secretary of the Commission, 
was in the house next to me, and 
when his family moved out the as- 
sistant warden — 

Q. — Are these houses furnished 
for them in addition to their sala- 
ries? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now, Mr. Haynes 
was appointed at $200.00, and when 
the last change was made in regard 
to Mr. Haynes' salary it made a dif- 
ference of about $200.00 per year 
when he first came and what it is 
today. 

Q. — What about the others?. 

A. — Mr. Jordan paid rent on his 
house up to about the 1st of January 
at which time he was allowed a house 
in connection with his other salary. 

Q. — What did he pay? 

A. — $15 per month. 

Q. — What did this house cost the 
State? 

A. — I think $3,800. 

Q. — What rent does the State get 
from the other houses? 

A.- — Just those two occupied by 
Mr. Palmer and Mr. Jordan. Just 
those two. 

Q. — Rent was never charged to Mr. 
Palmer? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you any criticisms to 
make in regard to the penitentiary 
system? 

A. — Yesterday, I believe, it was 
Mr. Brahan who made the statement, 
when the Commissioners were called 
into council, that they themselves 
would be their worst critics. 

Q. — W T hat criticisms have you to 
make? 

A. — I have none. Mr. Brahan 
made that statement. I have critic- 
ised the law under which we are 
operating and I think it ought to be 
changed. I have already explained 
that, but I have no criticism to make 
of the Commissioners. 

Q. — What mistakes have you made 
in the management of the peniten- 
tiary system the last two years? 

A. — ( No response ) . 

Q. — What occurs to you has been 
the greatest mistakes of the Commis- 
sion the last two years? 

A. — As a financial proposition, I 
think we made a mistake in not let- 
ting the contract forces extend or re- 
newing them for two years, but I 
would have been opposed to that. I 
don't know of any mistakes we have 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



127 



made without some justification. Of 
course, we did not arrange to take 
care of the men thrown idle by fires. 
I don't know what other mistakes 
we made. I think misfortune had 
had a great deal to do with it — loss 
of shops; fires; financial condition, 
and all those things have made it 
hard for the Commission. It has 
been a strenuous time. If the Com- 
mission had been together to pass 
on all the questions as a Commis- 
sion, instead of being separated as 
they were, I think it would have 
been better for them. 

Q. — What portion of your time is 
spent in Huntsville? 

A. — The greater portion of my 
time is spent in Huntsville — more 
than two-thirds of it. 

Q. — How about the other Com- 
missioners? 

A. — Mr. Tittle is here more than 
Mr. Brahan. Mr. Brahan is absent 
more as he is on the farms as much 
as he can be looking after things. 

Lieutenant Governor Mayes inter- 
rogates Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — You spend a great deal of your 
time going to and from the farms? 

A. — It takes a great deal of time 
in travel; yes, sir. 

Q. — And necessarily spend a great 
deal of your time in Houston? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Houston is a point you have 
to get to any of the farms except the 
Shaw farm? 

Mr. Cabell states: Mr. Brahan is 
at Houston more than any of us, as 
it is necessary for him to go through 
there. It takes about as long to get 
from here to Houston to attend to 
any business as it would be to go to 
Dallas or St. Louis. I think that is 
one of the greatest hardships here, 
and I think from the amount of 
traffic given the railroad, and the 
patronage of the penitentiary system 
alone, we ought to have two trains 
from this place. This town is grow- 
ing and the traffic is very large. There 
is a good-natured set of citizens here 
or they would be kicking all the 
time. 

Lieutenant Governor Mayes re- 
sumes interrogation of Mr. Cabell: 

Q. — Have you any other sugges- 
tions or statements to make? 

A. — To make myself clear, I think 
there should be some changes in 
reference to the number of hours 
worked on the farm. I don't be- 
lieve an average number of hours 
can be worked, as at certain times 



much longer hours can be worked. 
I think the law states ten hours to 
and fro mthe work, and it is un- 
reasonable in the busy farming sea- 
son. 

Q. — Anything further? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — When I was asking Mr. Bra- 
han a question he said something 
about you buying some particular 
mules. Now — 

A. — The way the mules are bought 
is by order of the Commission after 
Mr. Brahan makes a report as to the 
number of mules necessary to carry 
on the crops, and I was authorized 
to buy these mules, and you would 
consider that he and I bought them, 
and I think he bought them right 
and at a good price. The next mules 
bought were from Bassett Blakely. 
Mr. Tittle and Mr. Brahan had agreed 
with Mr. Bassett Blakely that he 
would sell us any amount of mules 
needed at Fort Worth prices, and 
the agreement was that he would ship 
them and Mr. Brahan and I would 
look at them and pass on them. The 
first carload he brought we went and 
looked at them, and he said he would 
furnish them to us, but that he would 
not furnish us any more. There was 
not enough mules, and we went to 
Fort Worth together and bought the 
mules. 

Q. — From the price listed, those 
mules must have been bought for the 
purpose of cultivating the cane 
farms? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you use any of the cane 
mules for cotton farming considering 
you required a certain class of mules 
for that crop? 

A. — For the larger and heavier 
mules we would term "cane mules". 
I will say I bought thirty head of 
cheaper mules. 

Q. — What I wanted to get at was 
did you buy more cane mules than 
you needed? 

A. — The fact is they have asked 
us for more high class mules than 
we bought. 

Q.- — What about the death rate of 
the mules? Have you lost any? 

A. — Our death rate has been very 
small. I think we have lost very 
few. We have lost some from colic, 
but we have a veterinarian and he 
is kept constantly on the go. 

Q. — What do you pay him? 

A. — $100 per month. 



128 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Does he have the general sup- 
ervision of the feeding as well? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — One question in connection with 
the inquiry of Governor Mayes, he 
did not ask what rations you gave 
your prisoners. What proportion of 
beef and bacon do you give your 
prisoners ? 

A. — On the white camp we give 
beef two time a week and with the 
negroes we give them beef once a 
week. The rest of the time we feed 
them bacon. 

Q. — Was it not the policy of your 
system at one time to contract locally 
the supply of beef cattle for the 
system ? 

A. — We have started this year to 
advertise for a contract for a supply 
of beef on the different places for a 
period of twelve months, but it was 
changed afterwards and we have now 
an advertisement for beef to all the 
system on all the farms for a period 
of six months. 

Q. — You were going to experiment ? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now, we never feed 
canned stuff to convicts. 

Q. — Will you state what adminis- 
tration has done in the way of teach- 
ing convicts? You showed us some 
of the work on the blackboards. 

A. — The teaching at the two points, 
Huntsville and Rusk, has been fairly 
well carried on. In fact, we have a 
good school, and the prisoners are 
learning different things. We have 
a regular employed teaching chaplain, 
and it is being carried on the same 
way at Rusk; also at the different 
camps, but they have not taken a 
very extensive interest in it at any 
of the different farms. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — There has been some discussion 
of the advisability of having the 
furniture factory manufacture furni- 
ture for the public schools of the 
State. 

A.— Well, I had Prof. Ellis come 
here, and had him bring a catalogue 
showing the kind of furniture wanted 
and he met our foreman, and he feels 
very certain we can manufacture 
most of the parts of the desks used 
in our public schools. 

Q. — Can you do it in such a way 
to sell them to the public schools at 
less than they are now buying furni- 
ture? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 



SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Testimony by Louis W. Tittle. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — You are a member of the 
Prison Commision? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What department of the Prison 
Commission are you especially in 
charge of? 

A. — The financial department. 

Q. — Could you explain in your own 
way to the Committee your reason 
why the Brison Commission is so 
much in the red now? 

A. — Yes, sir; I can off-handed, I 
suppose. There are a great many 
things that enter into it, and as ex- 
plained by Mr. Cabell and Mr. Brahan, 
I would say the loss was considerable. 
The first considerable loss was the 
cane crop of 1911. 

Q. — How much did that amount 
to? 

A.— $250,000 to $500,000. 

Q. — Does that mean the crop or net 
values ? 

A. — I mean the net value. 

Q. — You mean to say it would have 
netted you this amount if it had not 
been for the freeze? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, in regard to the fire. 
How much atcual cash was lost. I 
don't mean book value, but how much, 
expenditure money was the State put 
to as the result of the fire? 

A. — I should say the expense has 
been from $5~0~,000 to $60,000. 

Q. — To restore what has been de- 
stroyed to what it is today? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You compute in that loss the 
loss of time for convicts? 

A. — Yes, sir. 
- Q. — You charge up to loss the time 
of the convicts in which you were 
building the temporary improve- 
ments ? 

A. — No, I don't think the convicts 
have been charged. It has been the 
outside labor. 

Q. — How much did that loss at 
Huntsville amount to? 

A. — Well, that would be pretty hard 
to estimate. In the first place the 
factories practically shut down for 
about six months. The shoe and tai- 
lor shops went on as they were not 
damaged much. The boiler shop, 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



129 



foundry, machine shop and cabinet 
factory was shut down for six months. 
They did a little work, but it was 
very little. The per diem is another 
thing which enters into the loss. It 
will amount to about $225,000 for the 
two years past. Transportation of 
convicts under the new laws is con- 
siderably more than under the old. 
It is about three or four thousand 
dollars increase per year. Short hours 
enter into it very materially. 

Q. — How many hours do you work 
the men in the factory? 

A. — Ten hours, I believe. It is 
generally conceded, I believe, that 
that is long enough for men to work 
in the factories. The high cost of 
living the past two years has entered 
into it to some extent. Supplies are 
higher than for years past. I think 
we could have bought some cheaper 
with cash. 

Q. — I believe Mr. Cabell said the 
cost of supplies run from 15 to 25 
per cent higher than it would if he 
had the cash to pay with. 

A. — I don't know of any article we 
paid over 10 per cent more for, but 
it would have been cheaper if we 
could have had the cash to purchase 
them for. We don't have any con- 
tract for supplies excepting oils and 
fuels. That is about all the con- 
tracts we have, excepting tobacco, 
but the other supplies are bought 
every thirty days. 

Q. — Who orders the purchasing of 
supplies ? 

A. — In the first place the order 
comes from the foreman of the shop 
for supplies, and the Commissioners 
aprove it, and it is then passed to our 
office for purchasing, and unless it 
is a small item, we submit it to 
dealers for competitive bids, and buy 
from the lowest bidder. That is the 
way all the supplies have been bought 
through my office, and I have never 
bought any goods except as approved 
by the Prison Commission. 

Q. — Have you any other sugges- 
tions ? 

A. — We contend that the ocnvicts 
have been better fed; better clothed, 
better cared for, and been furnished 
with better accommodations in every 
way for their comfort and care. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphres: 

Q. — Have they had better medical 
and dental attention? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — As a Commissioner in charge 
of the financial department, can you 
say to this Committee if there is any 
additional expense to the salary of 
the officers as against the old sys- 
tem? 

A. — No, sir; I think we are op- 
erating our financial office cheaper 
than in any administration. We have 
no surplus salaries. We should have 
had more help than we have had. 
We ought to have had at least one 
or two more men here last year. 

Q. — Could you say in your judg- 
ment if there is a surplus of em- 
ployes in any department? 

A. — No, sir; I think not. How- 
ever, there may be some services 
that could be dispensed with. 

Q. — How much has the prison 
system lost by abolishing the lease 
system? 

A. — -I think it has lost practically 
what we owe today? 

Q. — That accounts largely for the 
indebtedness? 

A. — Yes, sir. The receipts for the 
contract labor was $400,000 per year, 
and there is nothing from that source 
now at all. 

Q. — Do you know whether or not 
private parties would be willing to 
lease convicts now? 

A. — No, sir; I can not say. 

Senator Robert L. Warren: 

Q. — If I understand Mr. Tittle, the 
loss of revenue to the State was by 
reason of the lease and contract sys- 
tem, and that it practically amounted 
to the present indebtedness. The 
present indebtedness is one or one 
and a half-million dollars. Now you 
state the amount of revenue from 
that source is about $400,000 per 
year. 

A. — I mean by that, together with 
other losses, taking into considera- 
tion the losses by freezes, fires, etc., 
would cover our present indebted- 
ness. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — You mean the abolishing of 
the lease system accounts for prob- 
ably $400,000 annual losses? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you had anything to do 
with the finances of the State rail- 
road on the part of the prison sys- 
tem? 

A. — No, sir; not in the way we 
handle finances. 

Q. — Do those finances come un- 
der your supervision? 

A. — Yes, sir. Their losses are 



130 



Report and Findings of 



about $41,000 or $42,000. They are 
losing in their operations now from 
$1000 to $1200 per month. 

Q — Is the machine shop at Rusk 
dependent largely on the State rail- 
road? 

A. — Yes, sir. Of course, they do 
some other custom work, but mostly 
it is for the State railroad. 

Q. — Do you get that back in cash? 

A. — It is debited, and we get no 
pay in cash. 

Q. — In your judgment is the rail- 
road run as economically as it could 
be? 

A. — Yes, sir I think so. They 
have no engine, but have had one 
leased from the I. & G. N. for five 
or six weeks. 

Q. — Wihere do you get these rail- 
road employes? 

A. — They are all private citizens. 

Q. — Has the system maintained 
any luxuries in the way of the rail- 
road system? 

A. — No. sir; only one or two old 
coaches. 

Q. — Are you prepared to say the 
railroad is, or is not, a good invest- 
ment for the state? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think it is a 
good investment. Of course they 
could get better results from the 
road if they had the proper equip- 
ments. I think it would be much 
better than it is. 

Q. — There was an item brought 
to my attention yesterday in refer- 
ence to the furniture account. Are 
you familiar with that? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — This inventory shows on De- 
cember 31, 1911, $6793.81, and the 
inventory of January 20, 1911, shows 
$9539.70, showing a loss in the in- 
ventory of $2,745.89, though be- 
tween January 20, 1911, and Decem- 
ber 31, 1911, there was $3225.97 
expended or put into furniture. How 
can you account for this loss in the 
inventory? 

A. — About 1800 or $2000 worth 
of the fixtures is in the residences. 
Every officer is furnished with a 
certain amount of furniture, and 
that accounts for the bulk of that 
item. 

Q. — When were these officers' 
houses equipped? 

A. — About one year ago. 

Q. — You can account for about 
how much of the furniture that went 
into the residences? 

A. — I would say from $1600 to 
$1800. Possibly $2000. 



Q. — The policy is to furnish the 
houses, and furniture too? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Does that include all the 
houses? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is that furniture going to all 
the State residences? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Any part to the State resi- 
dences on the farms? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You could not tell us where 
the balance of the amount went? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Would your records show? 

A. — Maybe the bookkeeper could 
explain it. I could not. 

Q. — What is your interest account 
on your outstanding indebtedness? 

A. — About $36,000, Mr. Huey re- 
ported. 

By R. B. Humphreys: 

Q. — What would you think of the 
advisability of suspending further 
operations on the State railroad? 
From any standpoint, would it be 
advisable to do it? 

A. — We have discussed that time 
and again, but did not see proper 
to do it. 

Q. — Is there any outstanding in- 
debtedness against it? 

A. — $100,000 worth of school 
bonds. . 

Q. — How are those bonds guaran- 
teed in payment? 

A. — I don't know. I have never 
seen one of the bonds. 

Q. — You don't know whether they 
bind the State to keep the road in 
operation or not? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — What is the mileage of the 
State Railroad now? 

A. — Thirty-two and one-fourth 
miles. 

By Robert B. Humphreys: 

Q. — You spoke of additional equip- 
ments. With but a little extra 
equipments would not the income 
be very much better? 

A. — I understand if the road was 
put in proper shape the income would 
double. 

By Senator Robert L. Warren: 

Q. — In your opinion, is the Rusk 
penitentiary a favorable proposition 
to the State financially or otherwise? 

A. — I don't think it is any more 
favorable under the present man- 
agement than any other proposition, 
except* in one or two ways. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



131 



Q. — Do you think it would be best 
for the State to concentrate its pri- 
son system? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you not think the ideal 
prison system would be to have it 
more centrally located, or as nearly 
as could be? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q.— -Do you not think that would 
apply not only to the actual walls, 
but to the whole farms? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you not think also a loss 
to the State is transportation by rea- 
son of lack of concentration? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is there not a great loss to 
the State by virtue of the idle labor 
you have in the prison system? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think that question 
can be met at this time by pardons 
to convicts? For instance, those 
that have perfect records? 

A. — I think quite a good many; 
yes, sir. 

Q. — Both from financial and hu- 
manitarian grounds? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you not think it would be 
policy on the part of the State to 
develop gradually a trustie system 
that has not been paid much atten- 
tion to heretofore? 

A. — I don't think so to a great 
extent. Some, but not to a great 
extent. 

Q. — You don't think it advisable 
to extend that system? 

A. — I think to some extent; yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Will you give your reasons 
why you would not advise it to any 
great extent? 

A. — I find where there are too 
many trusties it demoralizes the 
forces. 

Q. — Is there not also a great loss 
to the people of Texas financially on 
account of our industries not being 
developed up to the standard they 
should be? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Don't you think an extension 
of those industries so as to include 
furnishing certain staples to the 
various institiutions of the State 
would be a good financial proposi- 
tion? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Don't you also think there 
would be a great saving to the peo- 
ple of Texas financiallv if we could 



purchase our supplies on a high com- 
petitive basis? 

A.— I don't know how high that 
would run according to your idea, 
but we do purchase our supplies on 
bids. There has only been two or 
three grocery concerns in the State 
from which we could buy supplies 
for the past twelve months; W. D. 
Cleveland & Sons and the Schumach- 
er Grocery Co. of Houston, Texas. 
You gentlemen understand the keen 
competition of the farmers located 
in the vicinity of Houston, and it 
enables them to sell cheaper than 
anywhere else in the State, and we 
get numerous letters from other 
concerns in which they state they 
can not compete against them. 

By John G. Willacy: 

Q. — Did you ever receive bids from 
these grocery concerns? 

A. — Yes. sir, we received some bids 
from them. 

Q. — Have you had anything to 
suggest to you that there was an 
understanding between these firms 
that they would not compete for the 
business? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you heard anything of the 
kind? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Senator Robert L. Warren: 

Q. — Is it not your opinion that it 
such a thing could be done, the prop- 
erty, or really the prison walls them- 
selves, should be in close proximity 
to the farms? 

A. — No, sir. On account of the pres- 
ent condition. I don't think the pen- 
itentiary should be maintained in 
the Brazos bottom. 

Q. — Is it not your opinion that the 
ideal prison of Texas would be with- 
in the boundaries of the farms? 

A. — I think it advisable if the farms 
are located right. Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are there not many reasons 
why it would be a saving financially 
and also as to the morality of the 
institution? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you not give the pres- 
ent management an opportunity of 
developing any industries: raising 
hogs, and everything that the Chair- 
man of the Committee developed yes- 
terday afternoon; raising their beef; 
feeding their beef, etc.? 

A. — Yes. sir. 



132 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — State whether or not such an 
institution so located and so managed 
would he substantial financially. 

A. — I am not willing to state that. 
I don't know, hut I think it would 
be. Yes, sir. 

By John G. Willacy: 

Q. — I suggested yesterday that you 
had visited the Shaw land more par- 
ticularly than anywhere else? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you tell us what the dis- 
tance is from the nearest railroad? 

A. — Some citizens claim it is 12 
miles, and some 13 miles, and every- 
thing has to be hauled out this 12 
miles. 

Q. — Do you find that to be very ex- 
pensive? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is the character of that 
land? 

A. — It is very good land. It is 
Red River bottom land, and some 
of it is very good land. 

Q. — Has there not been a good deal 
of land in that country subjected to 
very wet seasons the last few years? 
Or in other words, have there been 
any crops raised in that neighbor- 
hood in the last few years? 

A. — The auditors' report shows that 
in 1911 on the Shaw lease the state 
lost in round figures $12,000. 

Q— And in 1912 the state lost in 
round figures $25,000? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In 1911 they were operating 
on the share system? 

A. — Yes, sir; at that time they had 
a promising cotton crop on it — some 
600 or 700 acres of cotton that was 
late. We had an early frost that de- 
stroyed it, and nothing was made on 
it. We had this labor to take care 
of, and thought it probably the best 
to be done under the- conditions. 

Q. — It would have been cheaper 
to have taken care of the labor with- 
in the walls than to have operated 
these farms? 

A. — I think so. 

Q. — Is it very expensive getting con- 
victs back and forward from Hunts- 
ville to a tract of land 300 miles 
away? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is it not very expensive to 
get feed for the livestock, and the 
products back to the railroads? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — About the only person, or per- 
sons, who can profit by this is the 
railroads? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Q. — And we are not supposed to be 
running a system to favor the rail- 
roads? 

A. — No, sir. 

By W. O. Dime: 

Q. — Are you the financial agent 
of this Commission? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You buy and pass on all the 
purchases? 

A. — Yes, sir, financially we do, but 
we first pass on the requisition. We 
pass on that first, and if it is approved 
it is passed to our office to make the 
purchase. 

Q. — Now in reference to the ac- 
counts sent in from the different 
farms, how do you keep tab on the 
correctness and justness of these 
claims? 

A. — Of course, the invoices are re- 
ceived direct here in our office, and 
are sent in duplicate to the managers, 
and they check the invoices, O. K. 
them, and pass them back to 'the 
office here. 

Q. — When you get requisitions from 
the farms, where are they purchased 
from? 

A. — Now the managers never order 
anything like supplies. 

Q. — There has been something said 
about paying the cooks that are for 
the prisons and the farms. How often 
are they paid off? 

A. — The sergeant gives them over- 
time. They are allowed $1 per day 
for overtime, and the cooks in the 
prison are allowed overtime of $1 per 
day for their work. The cooks that 
are cooking for citizens are paid up 
monthly, but those working for the 
prison are not paid up. 

Q. — What was your rule in 1911 in 
reference to paying cooks? Did you 
have sufficient means? 

A. — Yes, sir, I think we paid all 
overtime for 1911, which amounted 
to $36,000 or $37,000. 

Q. — Now how do you know whether 
or not the cooks and convicts got 
their money? For the last twelve or 
fifteen months there has been no 
money remitted to the managers for 
convicts' overtime. 

A. — When a man is discharged he 
gets everything the State is due him; 
his per diem, and all that is coming 
to him. It is to their credit, and 
they will get it when we get the 
money. 

Q. — When you pay these cooks, or 
other employes overtime, do you 
take any receipt from the party who 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



133 



received pay as check upon the man- 
agers? 

A. — Yes, sir. The manager makes 
out a statement with everything at- 
tached to it; the $5 discharge, per 
diem, and overtime. 

Q. — Have you anything from the 
convict himself so he will know what 
he is receiving, or in other words 
do you have a receipt from the con- 
vict to the manager? 

A. — Not here. The manager is sup- 
posed to keep that in his office. 

Q. — You do not have anything 
showing the manager paid it to the 
prisoner? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think it a good idea to 
adopt a system in which any money 
is paid out by which it should be 
paid out in voucher, showing the 
amount paid, and what for, so the 
convict will know what is coming to 
him, and the voucher signed by the 
convict, and kept in this office? 

A. — I will state that everything 
paid out has been on voucher since 
I came here. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — Senator Willacy and Senator 
Warren were asking you a question 
about the cost of supplies. Have you 
made any comparison of the prices 
paid two and four years ago with the 
prices now? 

A. — Xo, sir; we have not. Now in 
the year 1911 when we were supposed 
to buy for cash, we find our prices 
compared favorably with most things 
for that year. 

Q. — Do you think you could effect a 
saving by placing an order for the 
approximate amount representing the 
quantity you know the prison would 
require in the course of a year, and 
order it out in quantities? 

A. — I doubt that. Our prices com- 
pared with the State purchasing de- 
partment shows we have the best of 
it in the past six months. 

Q. — I thought perhaps you had 
made a study of the increased cost 
of maintaining the prison, as you 
made the statement that the cost 
was greater today that formerly, and 
I was very desirous of having en- 
tered into the records some estimate 
of the approximate increase. 

A. — When I made that statement 
I had reference to the past two years, 
1911 and 1912, and on supplies cost- 
ing more money than previously. 

Q. — In answer to Senator Willacy, 
you made the statement regarding 
loses of revenue in regard to the 



convict lease system. Is it your in- 
terpretation of the present law gov- 
erning the prison commission that 
you could have continued these leases, 
and that you could have 'renewed 
leases at their expiration? 

A. — Yes, sir, it is; up to the year 
1914. 

Q. — Did you consider that formally 
as a Commissioner? 

A. — Yes, sir, we did; discussed it at 
some length, and under the present 
law, and with the approval of the 
Governor and Commission, thought 
it best to not renew them. 

Q. — Did you enter that upon the 
records of the Commission? 

A. — Yes, sir, we did. 

Q. — What time did you take that 
action? 

A. — I could not state what month, 
but would say from May to July, 1911. 

Q. — Do you recall when the last 
lease contract expired? 

A. — Yes, sir, it was last year. We 
had three lease contracts to expire 
last year, December 31, Mr. Shaw's 
farm, the Trammel farm and the 
Lakeside sugar farm. 

Q. — Would you be able to say if 
the lease system sustained consider- 
able expense from receiving convicts 
under lease that had expired, or under 
the leases that were surrendered to 
you? 

A. — Yes, sir, I think the State sus- 
tained considerable expense on ac- 
count of having to put up new build- 
ings and making arrangements to 
care for the men. 

Q. — When this law became effec- 
tive, did you notify persons who held 
the convicts under lease that they 
would have to comply with the pro- 
visions of the law as to the hours 
they were workd? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — By reason of that fact you 
think any of these lease holders de- 
cided to surrender the convicts 
rather than continue working them 
under these conditions? 

A. — I can't say. Some of the con- 
tractors surrendered their forces be- 
fore the expiration of the contract. 
Q. — Why do you do this? 
A. — We thought it best. The men 
who had them in charge were dis- 
satisfied. 

Q. — They stipulated the special 
reason they had for surrendering 
i them was the conditions imposed by 
! the new law? 
A. — Yes. sir. 



134 



Report and Findings op 



Q. — In endeavoring to comply with 
the law, have you sought to acquire 
sufficient lands for the State to em- 
ploy these men froih January 1, 
1914, as the law stipulates? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have secured op- 
tions. 

Q. — Do you think the options you 
have in addition to the lands the 
State now owns will furnish the men 
work with all the acreage needed? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you mind giving to 
the Committee statements as to the 
lands you now hold options on that 
you would not take advantage of? 

A. — No, sir. I could not give you 
all of them unless I had a list of 
the options here. 

(Mr. Tittle is requested to give 
to the Committee a list of the op- 
tions he holds he would not take ad- 
vantage of.) 

Q. — The present Commission has 
bought no land? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Does the prison system own 
any land now that you think unprof- 
itable property? 

A. — Yes, sir. They own about 
2000 to 2500 acres of land in Cher- 
okee County, and it is about the av- 
erage land of that county. The tim- 
ber is cut off and it is not bringing 
in any revenue. 

Q. — Any improvements? 

A.— None. 

Q. — fenced? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What is the approximate value 
of this land? 

A. — $10 for this land. 

Q. — Is that included in the prop- 
erty account at Rusk? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — When was this land pur- 
chased? 

A. — Under Governor Lanham's 
administration, and it was purchased 
for the timber. However, it has 
been cut off and sold. Some under 
Campbell's administration. They 
are now taking off the gum and oak. 

Q. — They bought it only as a tim- 
ber proposition? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How far from Rusk peniten- 
tiary is this land you speak of? 

A. — About fourteen or fifteen 
miles west. 



By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 
Q. — Where is that piece of land 
in this inventory? (Inventory book 
is handed to Mr. Tittle.) 

A. — I suppose it is included in 
the real estate items. It must be 
in the property accounts. It was in- 
ventoried, I am sure. I won't say 
at $10, but that is my recollection. 

Q. — What is the acreage of the 
two farms at Huntsville? 
A. — About 2000 acres. 
Q. — What is it worth now with- 
out any improvements? 
A. — About $10 per acre. 
Q. — What are the improvements 
worth on it? 

A. — On the Wynne farm, I would 
say the improvements are worth 
$20,000, and on the Goree farm $15,- 
000. This is only approximately. 

Q. — Now, if you wanted to dis- 
pose of these farms, you would prob- 
ably get the value of the land. What 
would you do with the buildings? 

A. — There are some good resi- 
dences there I think we could sell 
at approximately 50 per cent. The 
prison building could not be used, 
but it could be torn down and 
worked into other buildings. 
By Senator John G. Willacy: 
Q. — Your home is here? 
A. — At Rusk. 

Q. — Would I be too personal if I 
asked you if you own any property 
at Rusk? 

A. — I own one lot at Rusk. 
Q. — You are a citizen of Rusk? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You stated that you thought 
it would be a good investment on the 
part of the State to consolidate the 
State penitentiary here or elsewhere? 
A. — Yes, sir. I think it would be 
a good proposition. 

Q. — Do you think it would be a 
good investment for the state to 
maintain the penitentiary at Rusk? 
A.— I think it is as good, if not 
better, than to maintain a peniten- 
tiary here. Yes, sir. I think it has 
many advantages over this place. 

Q. — Do not all the records for the 
Rusk penitentiary show it has been 
a losing proposition for the State? 

A. — Yes, sir. They are all losers, 
for that matter. 

Q. — Which of the three has been 
the greatest loss? 

A. — I believe Mr. Moore states 
Rusk has lost over $1,000,000 since 
Rusk has had a penitentiary. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



135 



Rusk Prison, 

J. A. Palmer, Warden. 
Rusk, Texas, May 5, 1913. 
Hon. L. W. Tittle, Prison Commis- 
sioner. 

Dear Sir: As per your request 
that I make report of the losses oc- 
curring at Huntsville since January 
1, 1900, beg to submit the follow- 
ing: 

Loss 2 2 months to Au- 
gust 31, 1902 $76,682.79 

Loss 2 4 months to Au- 
gust 31, 1904 61,559.55 

Loss 24 months to Au- 
gust 31, 1906 77,749.15 

Loss 2 4 months to Au- 
gust 31, 1908 61,641.06 

Loss 12 months to Au- 
gust 31, 1909 74,536.16 



Loss for 12 months to 
Dec. 31, 1912 



105,600.94 



$352,168.71 
Loss April 1, 1910, to 

January 20, 1911. .. . 10,722.84 | 
Loss January 20, 1911, 

to December 31, 1911 127,269.89 ! 
Loss January 1, 1912, 

to December 31, 1912 123,907.84 ! 



$614,069.28 
Convict labor charged 

1910-11-12 207,745.00 



$406,324.28 
Respectfully yours, 

JOHN M. MOORE, 

Prison Auditor. 

Rusk, Texas, May 5, 1913. 
Hon. R. B. Humphrey, Chairman. 

As per request of your Commit- 
tee, asking that I make report of the 
losses at Rusk occurring since Jan- 
uary 1, 1900, I beg to submit the 
following: 
Loss 22 months, Oct. 

31, 1900, to Aug. 31, 

1902 $217,689.50 

Loss 24 months, Aug. 

31, 1902, to Aug. 31, 

1904 201,758.72 

Loss 24 months, Aug. 

31, 1904, to Aug. 31, 

1906 215,815.06 

Loss 24 months, Aug. 

31, 1906, to Aug. 31, 

1908 192,278.48 

Loss 12 months, Aug. 

31, 1908, to Aug. 31, 

1909 35,192.96 

Loss April 1, 1910, to 

Jan. 20, 1911 10,593.46 

Loss for 12 months to 

Dec. 31 1911 85,219.72 



Total losses for 13 

years $1,066,148.84 

In the above estimate there is 
charged and considered an item of 
convict labor for the years of 1911 
and 1912, which is $85,832, and if 
same is not considered as a legiti- 
mate charge, would change the net 
losses to $980,316.84. 

There also appears a loss by the 
operation of the iron industry 
amounting to $277,651.86, and if 
same is looked upon as not a part 
of the losses, for the purpose of 
making a comparison with other 
prisons where no such burden is 
carried, it will further reduce the 
losses to the sum of $702,664.98. 
This is also not charging to the iron 
industry any convict labor. This 
report is taken from the report of 
the Corporation Audit Company and 
from the several reports of Auditor 
F. J. Huey. However, I will call 
your attention to these several .gen- 
tlemen's report as to the reliability 
of the books from which this infor- 
mation was compiled by them. 
Respectfully submitted, 
JNO. M. MOORE, 
Prison Auditor. 

Q. — What is your present indebt- 
edness of the prison system up to 
date? 

A. — I can tell you for April 21. 

Q. — Does that indebtedness in- 
clude your outstanding obligations? 

A. — I would like to ask Mr. Moore 
one question. 

Mr. Tittle interrogates Mr. Moore: 

Q. — Mr. Moore, I understand from 
your statement, for instance, we 
invoiced with, say, 10,000 pounds 
bacon, bought for the Wynne 
farm, that the invoice is trans- 
mitted to Mr. South; he O. K.'s 
it, and it is turned in to the office the 
bookkeeper has charge of. Do you 
know what the bookkeeper does with 
that invoice? 

A. — I presume he would enter it 
immediately on his books. 

Q. — I understood you to say it laid 
there until paid? 

A. — Those things are not entered 
as promptly as they should be, and 
there are a number of things, I un- 
derstand, do not go into the books 
as promptly as they should. 



136 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — On the 21st day of last month, 
the total indebtedness was, includ- 
ing the appropriation, $320,768.18, 
was $1,923,076.18, but not the net, 
less the assets, which accounts are 
cash, Bills Receivable, Accounts Re- 
ceivable, Due from Railroad, leaving 
a net deficit of $1,602,608.00. In ar- 
riving at that net deficit would you 
deduct the net assets from the total 
obligation? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would this increase or de- 
crease this amount? 

A. — Increase, and will continue to 
be an increase. 

Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
Moore: 

Q. — Would the increase then be 
greater than the actual expense from 
the period of December 31, 1912? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — That would not include any 
expense incurred for permanent im- 
provements of that kind? 

A. — Yes, sir; that would include 
all expenses. 

Q. — Would you care to state if 
there were any material items of 
improvements since January 1, this 
year? 

A. — Yes, sir; about $25,000 or 
$30,000. 

It is requested by the Committee 
that Mr. Moore make out statement 
of the losses at Huntsville, which he 
did, and read as follows: 

(See statement on page 135 here- 
of). 

Interrogation of Mr. L. W. Tittle 
resumed: 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — What do you think of the 
policy of extending these improve- 
ments, and creating heavy obliga- 
tions in the absence of money ap- 
appropriated? 

A. — No, sir. I don't think this 
is good policy, but if you put them 
on farms, and keep them, you must 
go to this expense. 

Q. — What was done with the 
$100,000 appropriated by the Legis- 
lature and the $450,000 in another 
item, and what relation was that 
appropriation applied to the indebt- 
edness? 

A. — We used $100,000 in paying 
the pay roll. We paid the December 
and January pay rolls. 

Q. — About what part of the $450,- 
000 has been used? 

A. — $65,000 out of it. We have 
warrants for that $65,000, but it has 



not been applied to our indebted- 
ness. 

Q. — The prison system has cost us 
the $100,000 appropriated by the 
Legislature, and $65,000 out of the 
last item? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 

Q. — Is it not a fact, taking the 
statement of December 31, 1912, the 
net deficit shown by that statement 
was $1,628,458.04 less $439,720.93, 
leaving a net balance of $1,188,- 
738.11? 

A. — That was the first of January. 

Q. — Does not the present state- 
ment show a financial status up to 
April 31, 1913, of $1,602,302 as be- 
ing the net deficit? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Then does not that leave 
$586,435.11 as being the indebted- 
ness at this time in excess of Jan- 
uary 1, 1913? 

A. — Yes, sir; but you understand 
the appropriations have not been 
used. That is, the $450,000. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Now we have passed a law 
issuing $2,000,000 in bonds to pay 
off the indebtedness or improve- 
ments; that bill did not authorize 
the purchase of lands? 

A. — No, sir, it did not. 

Q. — If the proceeds of the $2,- 
000,000 is applied to this indebted- 
ness and we get on a cash basis, this 
Committee would like to know if you 
can see any day-light so far as the 
financial condition of the penitentiary 
system is concerned? That is, if 
we were on a cash basis, and there 
should be a certain amount left for 
improvements, do you think even 
then the prison system could be able 
to be caried along without further 
donations without loss? 

A. — I think it could be worked 
out in one or two years. 

Q. — What is the most necessary 
for the penitentiary system to be op- 
erated without a loss? In other 
words, is there any particular line 
of activity that could be developed? 

A. — Some are developed that could 
be done away with. I think it 
would be more profitable to raise 
more cotton than cane. 

Q. — What does the per diem 
amount to? 

A. — About $120,000. It increased 
last year on account of the increased 
population. In 1911, about $97,- 
000 or $98,000. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



13" 



Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
the convicts to be able to suggest 
about how many could be released 
in justice to the public? 

A. — I don't know that I could. I 
might state, I believe two or three 
hundred. I think I would be safe in 
making that statement for the en- 
tire system. 

Q. — With the losses of the farm- 
ing operations before us, would you 
advise as a business proposition any 
extension of farming industries? 

A. — I could, but I think it more 
profitable in some sections than in 
the coast country. 

Q.— Does that apply to cane or 
what? 

A. — Most everything raised there. 

Q. — Do you charge that up to the 
condition of the soil, or climatic con- 
ditions? 

A. — Climate. Corn and cotton 
raised in that section are not very 
profitable, but taking — - 

By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 

Q. — In what portion of Texas do 
you think cotton raising is the most 
success? 

A. — North Texas and Central Tex- 
as. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — What was the financial condi- 
tion of the State prison when you 
took hold of it? 

A. — I receipted Mr. Barton for 
$49,000 in cash, and the indebted- 
ness of the Railroads Bonds, $130,- 
000, and the pay roll for $35,000, 
and I receipted for $49,000 in cash. 

Q. — The indebtedness is now about 
$1,600,000? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — That includes the $100,000 ap- 
propriated by the State? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Were the accounts payable 
you held for $130,000 inherited? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Senator rcobert L. Warren: 

Q. — In this property account shown 
in Mr. Huey's audit, the additions to 
the penitentiary property for 1912 
was given as $428,140.84. Are you 
in position to give the items of addi- 
tion to the committee? 

A. — It could be done, but it would 
take two or three men fifteen or 
twenty days to do it. 

Q. — If it is not too great a task, 
we would like to get it for our rec- 
ords. Could you give us a report by 
which we could see for what char- 



acter of buildings and what charac- 
ter of labor within a few days? 

A. — I think we could get that for 
you in four or five days. 

Mr. Tittle is requested by the Com- 
mittee to furnish that report. 
By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
Q. — What is the amount of the 
asset you spoke about? 
A. — $320,000. 

Q. — What were the assets submit- 
ted in your financial statement, and 
how much could you reasonably ex- 
pect to collect? 

A. — The suits we have I think are 
doubtful. Outside of that I would 
say 90 per cent. 

Q. — Do you expect to get any re- 
turns out of the $100,00 from the 
railroads? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Thirty-three and one-third per 
cent, of your $100,000 is right there? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you expect $150,000? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Can you reasonably expect 
$100,000? 

A. — I think so. 

Q. — The total amount of the out- 
standing indebtedness is $1,923,076. 
If the total proceeds of the bond is- 
sue is $2,000,000, you would then 
have a net proceeds of $76,924. What 
improvements do you contemplate 
from the bond issue? 

A. — We would have no improve- 
ments except that I stated a few min- 
utes ago. 

Q. — Are they included in the $1,- 
923,076 obligation? 
A. — Yes, sir. 
By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
Q. — Are you carrying assets and in- 
debtedness on account the State rail- 
road of $90,000? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you carrying the bond as 
an obligation of the system? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Then you are carrying an as- 
set of indebtedness incurred on the 
system of $90,000? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Understanding that the Legis- 
lature has removed the railroad from 
under control of the Prison Commis- 
sion, how would you adjust this ac- 
count on your books? 

A. — We have not yet adjusted it. 
The Governor has not taken charge 
of the road yet, and the account has 
been carried on the books for the 
past two years. 



138 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — You are earring the railroad 
account as liability of $100,000. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Then as an asset counting the 
money expended to maintain it and 
operate it of $90,000? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is the loss to the road 
to be operated per month? 

A. — About $1200 per month. 

Q.— The $90,000 represents the 
credits you held against the road on 
January 1, 1913? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Then you would have some- 
where near $7500 to add to that by 
the time you are relieved, less the 
operation of the road, making ap- 
proximately $100,000 credit on that 
account? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Practically offsetting the two 
items ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I want to get your idea of the 
inventory of the prison property. 
Now, here are the inventories taken 
January 20, 1911, and another Decem- 
ber 31, 1911. Does either of these 
inventories represent in your judg- 
ment the fair valuation of the prop- 
erties? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Will you state why the inven- 
tory taken by the Commission you 
think represents a reasonable value 
of the property? 

A. — My reason for saying the year 
1912 would be that the Commission 
went over the inventory carefully both 
years, and we unanimously decided 
the inventory was reasonable and 
right. 

Q. — In your answer to Senator 
Willacy, you made some statements 
regarding the value of the prison 
farms. What is your judgment re- 
garding the value of the Clemens, 
farm to the prison system? 

A. — Well, I hardly know how to 
answer that question. I don't know 
much about the value of land in that 
immediate section. 

Q. — You concur in the judgment of 
Mr. Brahan that there is only about 
1600 or 1700 acres of land suitable 
for growing cane? 

A. — I cannot say, but Mr. Brahan 
has made statement . to that effect. 

Q. — From your knowledge of the 
adaptation of lands in that vicinity 



to growing cotton, would you say 
it is good cotton land? 

A. — No, sir; it is not good cotton 
land. 

Q. — You would not think there is 
more than 1700 acres suitable for 
growing cane? 

A. — I think that is about correct. 

Q. — These being the facts, would 
you conclude it was good property 
for the State to own and operate? 

A. — No, sir; I think not. 

Q. — Have you made any inquiry 
as to the probable value of this prop- 
erty at the present time? 

A. — No, sir; I have not. 

Q. — Under the circumstances, would 
you recommend the disposal of the 
property ? 

A. — Yes, sir; I would. 

Q. — Are there any other lands aside 
from the tracts you have heretofore 
mentioned in answer to my questions 
you would dispose of. 

A. — No, sir; I would not. The 
other lands are valuable, and could 
be made substantial. 

Q. — You would transplant the en- 
tire system to a better locality? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I had particular reference to 
the Clemens farm. 

A. — I think negro convict labor 
could be utilized there better than 
anywhere else. 

Q. — Do you believe the Prison Com- 
mission would really be placed on a 
self-supporting basis if it was located 
in Central Texas? 

A. — Yes, sir. If the whole system 
was placed there I think it would be. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think it advisable, Mr. 
Tittle, to have the Commission ex- 
pend any more money in the con- 
struction of railroads in connection 
with the farms? 

A. — The proposition down at the 
Ramsey farm is one we considered, 
went far enough into it to ascertain 
the cost of building a railroad. 

Q. — If you disposed of the Clemens 
farm, would there be any reason for 
constructing the railroad? 

A. — No, sir; I think not. I can't 
see that there would be any beneficial 
results from it. Our experience from 
the State owning and operating rail- 
roads has been very expensive. 

Q. — Could you state the value of 
the equipment on the present mileage 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



139 



of the Texas State Railway? 

A. — I would not know how to value 
it. 

Q. — Have you ever had it valued? 

A. — Yes, sir. No doubt it is valued 
in the inventory. It would not be 
worth but a few thousand dollars, at 
best. 

Q. — Have you given any considera- 
tion to the manufacturing end of 
the business? 

A.— No, I have not. Mr. Cabell 
had supervision over the factories, 
and he is very much better ac- 
quainted with the conditions than I 
am. 

Q. — The Committee would like to 
have your conclusions, however, as 
to the maintenance of the manufactur- 
ing enterprises in connection with the 
prison system. What better invest- 
ments would you recommend? 

A. — I would recommend the tailor 
shop, shoe shop, wagon shop, and the 
boiler and machine shop, but would 
not recommend any extension in the 
way of the boiler and machine shop. 
They should be confined simply to 
their own custom. I think our ac- 
counts show the custom work for 
the past twelve months has amounted 
to little, and has not been satisfac- 
tory. 

Q. — Have you considered approxi- 
mately the number of men that could 
be employed to advantage in those 
enterprises ? 

A. — No, I have not lately. We have 
figured on that a number of times 
in the past two years, but it was on 
the idea of increasing the force and 
capacity of all the shops. 

Q. — What class of convicts would 
you say are employed in those in- 
dustries ? 

A. — Well, different shops and fac- 
tories use all cripples; they use 
crippled men; one-legged men, one- 
armed men, but the majority are 
first class men. The tailor shop and 
shoe shop use quite a number of 
crippled men. 

Q. — What is the proportion of the 
inefficient convicts in the penitentiary 
would you estimate? 

A. — I would say five to six hundred. 

Q. — What proportion of these do 
you think, if the Commission assigned 
them carefully, could be made self- 
supporting? 

A. — Probably 10 per cent. A very 
few of that number. 



Q. — Do you think it necessary to 
carry the others as dead expense to 
the prison system? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you looked into the ques- 
tion of salaries and general expenses 
of the system as financial manager? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you any recommendations 
as to the reductions in expenses? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think so. Some 
I made to the Commission which you 
will find on the Commission minutes. 

Q. — In making the credits for the 
shoe department and tailor shop I 
find they were charged to the system 
at a reasonable profit making basis. 
Can you give any light on how you 
arrive at the figures ? 

A. — As to the manufacture of shoes, 
I understood the foreman of the shop 
makes up his cost from the material, 
labor and adds his per cent for over- 
head charges. 

Q. — You do now know what the 
overhead charges are ? 

A. — No, sir; not for that particular 
shop. 

Q. — What is your general attitude 
toward the policy of paying over 
time? Do you think you pay more 
for over time than is necessary? 

A. — No, sir; I think not. 

Q. — In looking through the accounts 
I found one guard had about thirty- 
eight days in one month, and there 
was a credit of two days, one and 
one-half days, one and one-half days, 
and he put in about eighty-four hours 
out of a hundred and twenty con- 
secutive hours. Did that come under 
your supervision? 

A. — Yes, sir. Sometimes they draw 
as much as $40. That is done in this 
way: 

One or more guards will wish to 
lay off and another guard will sub- 
stitute for them. 

Q. — Have you any suggestions re- 
garding cnanges relating to the dis- 
charge of convicts? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What would you suggest? 

A. — The discharged convict should 
be furnished with transportation to 
the point of conviction, or to a point 
equal in distance in the State. 

Q. — Would you make that condi- 
tional that he actually go? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You understand you <• 
compel him to go? 

A. — Yes, sir; but I would make it 



140 



Report and Findings of 



conditional, that if he did not go, he 
would have to refund the money for 
transportation. 

Q. — Have you a statement of the 
amount paid on account of discharged 
convicts for railroad fare? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. I am 
not sure I have. The amount of 
transportation paid to discharged 
convicts under the new law is $30,- 
996, and under the old law is $25,687 
for the same length of time. 

Q. — Would not the Prison Commis- 
sion, in your judgment, be justified in 
discontinuing the cultivation of cane 
as rapidly as possible? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In what other crops would 
you put tlrs land? 

A. — I would reduce the cane crop 
to 2,000 to 2,500 acres, and make 
sugar and syrup for the prison system 
only. It takes a certain amount of 
cane to operate either of the mills, 
but we could put in a smaller mill 
that would cost less money than the 
Harlem Mill and could make it only 
for the Prison System. 

By Mr. L Tillotson: 

Q. — Have you made any calculations 
as to the acreage considering the 
average yield of cane that would be 
required to produce sufficient sugar 
and syrup for the Prison System? 

A. — No. sir; I have not. 

Q. — Have you given any considera- 
tion to the proposition to install a 
cotton seed oil mill? 

A. — No. sir; I have not given that 
much attention. 

Q. — Do you think it feasible, ami 
also economical to install an oil mill 
in connection with the Harlem Sugar 
mill. 

A. — Yes, sir; I feel that would be 
the place to locate it. 

Q. — Have you any other recom- 
mendations regarding the policy of 
the system; the general management, 
or details that you would like to 
go into the records for our consider- 
ation? 

A. — As to the per diem would recom- 
mend that it be abolished. It could 
probably be arranged by the Legisla- 
ture that prisoners could be helped in 
some way should they merit it. 

Q. — Do you think the convicts in 
the penitentiary would accept that 
change in good spirit? 

A. — Some might not. I rather think 
the majority of prisoners in the Sys- 
tem do not appreciate that to any 
great extent. While some do, yet the 
large majority do not appreciate it. 



I believe there are hundreds of them 
that get $35 per year who think 

thev ought to get $70. I would pay 
a discharged man a minimum of $15 
and a maximum of $40; this to be 
regulated by the number of years he 
has served in prison. This would let 
a man go out into the world with 
enough money to pay his board and 
lodging for thirty or forty days. 

Q. — Would that sum be in lieu of all 
items paid them; $5 discharge, etc" 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — That would be in addition to 
railroad fare? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You would also add the railroad 
fare to that? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you be able to estimate 
the approximate cost per annum for 
embalming and shipping bodies back 
to friends or relatives? 

A.— $1,221.47. 

Q. — What additional expense has 
the System incurred under the new 
law for embalming? 

A.— The $1,221.47 is for the embalm- 
ing alone. I also think the Commis- 
sioners should have the power to reg- 
ulate the hours of labor. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — You take these prisoners from 
certain points. When they die, we 
ought- to deliver them back to where 
we got them from. 

A. — The railroad company will not 
take them unless embalmed. No, sir. 
By Mr. Tillotson: 
Q. — Do you endeavor to ascertain 
when you send a body out if it will 
be received when it arrives at des- 
tination? 

A. — Very often we send a man 
with the body. There was only one 
body returned that I know of, and I 
was absent at that time. They are 
generally shipped without any per- 
son with them because the relatives 
are notified in advance just as soon 
as the convict dies, and the manager 
gets in touch with the relatives or 
friends, and if they demand it the 
boiy is shipped. In one or two in- 
stances we had to send a man with 
the body. Now as to the outside su- 
perintendent, I believe it a good idea 
to have one for a year or more, and 
that he be appointed by the Commis- 
sion, and think the Commission 
should be appointed by the Governor. 
I am opposed to purchasing land in 
the Brazos River bottoms. 

Q. — Do you believe in the course 
of five years it will be as easy to 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



141 



lease lands for farming operations 
as it is today? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You don't think then that the 
State is in a measure compelled to 
purchase in a short time lands to 
be reasonably acquired for farming 
operations, or does it not base the 
probable fact that it will have to pay 
two or three times more for the land, 
if it wanted to buy, on an increase of 
probably 5 per cent, to 100 per cent, 
more than today? 

A. — Yes, sir; it is a fact that the 
land is increasing in value. 

Q. — Would you then say it is the 
better policy to buy desirable lands 
as soon as possible, or to buy no 
more lands? 

A. — I think it is advisable to buy 
more lands. 

Q. — You think it not advisable to 
retain those lands that could be sold | 
at a profit? 

A. — Well, they might be, I think 
so. 

Q. — Are you satisfied that all the 
land purchased by the prison system 
could now be sold at a profit? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Could the options the State 
now holds be turned at a profit? 

A. — I don't know of any. I be- 
lieve I heard Mr. Brahan say some 
party wanted to take up an option, 
and that we could make a profit on 
it — on the Ramsey place. It is all 
prairie land. 

Q. — Is that as good coton land as 
the river bottom land? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think it better. 
I don't think you could raise long 
staple coton on it, but it is easier 
to cultivate. 

Q. — At what price have you an 
option on that land? 

A. — $50 per acre, and about 400 
acres adjoining at the same price. 

Q. — At what price do you under- 
stand the option could be turned? 

A. — I understand he would give 
us about $5 to $10 per acre for re- 
leasing it. 

Q. — How long have you got an op- 
tion of this land? 

A. — January 1. The State closes 
its option at that time, or loses it. 

Q. — I believe you agreed to fur- 
nish the Committee with a list of 
this? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — When can you have this ready. 

A. — Sometime this evening or in 
the morning. 



Q. — What is your idea of the 
health of the convicts in that lower 
Brazos River bottom. Is it not re- 
garded as very unhealthy? 

A. — Well, it used to be, but we 
have found that it is just as healthy 
there as any other place. Condi- 
tions are. changing all the time in 
Texas, and making it different from 
what we used to think it was. I can 
remember when the Cummings and 
the Eldridge farms was a death-hole. 
They are now clearing up the land; 
getting water off of the lakes and 
swamps, have artesian wells, etc. 

Q. — How much of the valley lands 
is subject to overflow in the Brazos 
River valley? 

A. — I think practically 9 5 per cent 
of it. 

Q. — Does that apply to lands on 
which we have options? 

A. — No, sir; the Ramsey place was 
never under water. There has never 
been but one overflow that I know 
of. That was in 1899 or 1900. Out- 
side of that not over 10 or 12 per 
cent ever overflows. 

Q. — But the valley lands will over- 
flow every once in a while? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now in reference to health 
conditions, does that apply to the 
white convicts as well as the negro 
convicts on the lower Brazos? 

A. — I don't think a white man 
would be as healthy as a negro 
would, and I would not recommend 
working them there. 

Q. — Would you advocate the lower 
Brazos as a place to keep white 
men? 

A. — No, sir; I think they ought 
to be kept in Central or Northern 
Texas. It is simply against my 
wishes, and the white men were put 
there over my protest. 

Senator Jno. G. Willacy interro- 
gates Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — Mr. Brahan, I believe the gen- 
eral opinion is that cotton raising is 
the most profitable work the system 
is engaged in? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now. if you moved any of the 
convicts, you would want them in a 
healthy country where cotton raising 
was profitable? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Mr. John M. Moore makes this 
statement: I want to say the best 
criterion for the health of that coun- 
try would be the death rate, and all 
the deaths are reported. I will say 
mv health in that country was bet- 



142 



Report and Findings of 



ter than in San Antonio. I think 
it will compare favorably with any 
county in the State. The prejudice 
is fostered and created on the prai- 
rie, and we think the Brazos River 
country is unhealthful. 

Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
Brahan: 

Q. — Have you on file at the dif- 
ferent farms a record of the num- 
ber of men in the farm operations 
from month to month? 

A. — You can find it in the records. 

(The Committee requests that Mr. 
Brahan furnish this record to the 
Secretary.) 

Senator Willacy makes the follow- 
ing request of Mr. Tittle: 

I would like to have you furnish 
us with a summary of the following: 
The amounts paid per annum for 
overtime; the per diem; interest on 
bills payable; the amounts paid on 
account discharged convicts; the 
amounts paid on account of the 
transportation of convicts; additional 
salaries under the new law; increase 
of salaries, if any; the increased per 
capita cost on the total prison pop- 
ulation; the increased cost due to 
the present credit system; the low- 
est revenue per annum due to the 
abolishing the contract lease system, 
and the cost of embalming convicts 
and sending them to their homes or 
relatives. 

Interrogation of Mr. Tittle re- 
sumed. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — We would like also to have 
a record of the escapes of convicts 
for the years 1911 and 1912. 

A. — There were 902 made trus- 
ties, 4 2 of them were violated, and 
2 2 are still out that were made trus- 
ties. The escapes for 1910 was 175 
men, and 50 captured. Escaped in 
1911, 225 men, and 185 was cap- 
tured. 

By Hon. R. B. Humphreys, Chair- 
man: 

Q. — We want your opinion as to 
the advisability of trying to use trus- 
ties as guards. 

A. — It is a new idea to me. Of 
course, I have never seen it put into 
execution, but I rather doubt the ad- 
visability of it. It might be worked 
out in the course of time. It would 
take quite a number of years to work 
it out successfully. 

Q. — The Governor, I believe, wrote 
you a letter in regard to this mat- 
ter, asking you to recommend 2 00 
men whom he could parole? 



A. — The Commission does not un- 
derstand under the present law that 
we could use trusties. The guard 
must be a sitizen of the State; 21 
years old, and sober — those qualifi- 
cations, and I doubt very much if 
it could be done. 



SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Testimony of J. C. Haynes. 

By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 

Q. — State your name? 

A. — J. C. Haynes. 

Q. — What is your occupation? 

A. — Chief clerk in the financial de- 
partment of the penitentiary system. 

Q. — How long have you been en- 
gaged in that department? 

A. — Since January 20, 1911. 

Q. — As such, what are your du- 
ties? 

A. — To carry out the orders of the 
penitentiary system through the 
financial department; principally in 
securing prices of merchandise to be 
bought. 

Q. — Have you had charge in a 
general way of the purchasing and 
selling of this institution since you 
came here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you had any knowledge 
of the details? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have. 

Q. — I will ask you in the first 
place about the question of sales of 
the institution; accounts which have 
been made by reason of those sales. 
Did you assist the auditor in making 
this audit and passing on this ac- 
count? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you seen the audit of 
what he considers good and doubt- 
ful? 

A. — No, sir; I have not. 

Q. — Have you made a list of what 
is considered doubtful? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is the aggregate of ac- 
counts, taken at face value, in this 
institution — approximate it, about 
what? 

A. — I think about three hundred 
and some odd thousand dollars, of 
all kinds. 

Q. — Of those, approximately how 
much in your opinion is doubtful at 
this time. 

A. — That includes Bills Receiva- 
ble. I don't mean we have sold 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



143 



within two years $300.,000 worth to 
the trade. 

Q. — How much Is now standing on 
the books unpaid at this time? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — Have you a list of those you 
consider doubtful? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What does it aggregate? 

A. — At this time it is $709.65, ac- 
cording to my judgment. 

Q. — Do you consider the balance 
of those accounts collectible? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are they due? 

A. — Practically all due. 

Q. — Are collections being pushed 
on these accounts? 

A. — Not at this time. These are 
made out by the bookkeeper with a 
request to please remit, and if they 
don't I write them a personal letter 
about it. I will state furthermore 
there are a number of smaller ac- 
counts included in this total of 
$709, such as $4.50, $3, $1.75. 
These are items which are a mat- 
ter of contention; some claim a dis- 
count where a man send in $400 
or $500. 

Q. — Whose immediate duty is it 
to look after the collection of these 
accounts? 

A. — The finance commissioner's. 

Q. — I want to ask you about the 
purchases for this institution. Are 
they a matter of competition? 

A. — Practically all of them. Oc- 
casionally it happens that in a job 
of work we find the stock has run 
out, and they are in a hurry to make 
the article, and they phone from the 
shop to get this order, and he 
makes requisition and states who it 
can be gotten from and at what 
price. 

Q. — Your blanks are fixed so you 
make requisition for such article, 
and then you put on the price of the 
article to be delivered at the prison 
system? 

A. — Say, for instance, if you 
wanted to order a dozen Yale locks, 
and if bought them last month at 
$7.50 per dozen, it would approxi- 
mately be $7.50 this month. 

Q. — Now, let me ask you some- 
thing about bois d'arc. Do you make 
all your purchases under competi- 
tion? 

A. — Absolutely so. 

Q. — How long a time is that price 
good; quarterly, annually, how? 

A. — We get our prices very far 



ahead on bois d'arc. That has to 
be cut in a season that it can be 
used. If the foreman of the wagon 
shop reports he wants some deliv- 
ered the 1st of August, we will write 
out to the various dealers in bois 
d'arc in the State; find out what 
their stock is; what prices they have, 
subject, to the inspection of the fore- 
man of the wagon shop. We get our 
data together, and then requisition 
is made by the foreman of the 
wagon shop for that material from 
the cheapest and best man to pur- 
chase from. 

Q. — In your general purchasing 
of supplies and all articles for the 
institution, how long are these prices 
good? 

A. — We purchase very few sup- 
plies more than thirty days ahead, 
and all annual contracts are exe- 
cuted by the Prison Board of Com- 
missioners. 

Q. — Suppose it is an article in 
which there is about to be a violent 
fluctuation? 

A. — Beef, tobacco, oils of all 
kinds, and lignite is about all the 
annual contracts we have. 

Q. — Where do you carry your 
bank balance? 

A. — Huntsville and the State 
Treasurer. 

Q. — What is the average amount 
you keep on hand? 

A. — We have had none practically 
in this administration. Some days 
we have a few thousand dollars, and 
the next day we have none. 

Q. — Have you overdrawn at the 
bank? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — The last statement showed 
you had $38,000? 

A. — That is the per diem for the 
convicts, which is held in trust by 
the Prison Board Commission, and 
a portion has already been set aside 
for them. 

Q. — Please explain to the Com- 
mittee in your own way the question 
of the losses of the prison system 
and your estimate, as a financial 
man, of the causes of the deficit, or 
how that arose? 

A. — The deficit, I figure, is made 
up in this way: We lost about 
$300,000 in the fire at Huntsville, 
and according to Mr. Huey's state- 
ment we lost about $500,000 for 
cane during the freeze. 

Q. — Now, in reference to the loss 
of $500,000 on cane; have you any 



144 



Report and Findings op 



other information excepting his es- 
timate? 

A. — No, sir. We have had different 
parties to vary it from $300,000 to 
$500,000. Accepting the auditor's var- 
iation to be correct, it would make 
an $800,000 loss at Huntsville, and 
in addition to that the System has 
lost $400,000 per year through the 
management of the convict lease sys- 
tem, as compared with former years, 
and that would practically offset the 
present indebtedness as up to today. 
In other words, I think if it had not 
been for the unforseen financial re- 
verses caused by the freeze and fire 
loss, and if the lease system had not 
been maintained under the former 
administration, the Prison System 
today would be practically free from 
debt, taken in connection with every- 
thing else. 

Q. — Now as we have departed from 
the lease system, do you mean to 
advise the Committee the State will 
run that much behind on its ■ present 
management? 

A. — No, sir; I did not say that. 

Q. — What would be your advice for 
the future or concurrent year 1913? 

A. — I think the present Commis- 
sioners are better able to give you 
ideas about that. You have got the 
farms down there, and can't do any- 
thing but operate them. You have 
the sugar mills, cane planted and 
are obligated to cultivate it this year. 

Q. — Would you like to suggest to 
the Committee some amendments? 

A. — I think the per diem law ought 
to be amended, and placed to the con- 
victs in the first grade, and at the 
discredit of the Prison officials, and 
used as a reward of merit. I think 
of course that the hours of labor on 
the farms are too short, and ought 
to be lengthened to conform wiith 
the farmers free labor. I think when 
a convict dies his remains should 
be shipped back to his home and the 
expense ought to be borne by someone 
else other than the Prison System. 
I think the transportation for dis- 
charged convicts when their time has 
expired should be furnished them to 
the place where they were sent from, 
and if to any other place, not to ex- 
ceed a greater distance. 

Q. — Could you make any sugges- 
tions in addition by saying they had 
to go there? 

A. — I don't see what there would 
be to gain there. I think the thing 
to do is to give him the money and 



let him go where he wants to, and 
have it fixed on a reasonable basis. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — You stated the fire cost us 
$300,000. Do you mean the property 
loss? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How do you arrive at that 
$300,000? 

A. — That was an approximate es- 
timate of $300,000 of the officials on 
the ground here. It was the prop- 
erty, machinery and equipment, that 
is, the actual money required to re- 
place the factories burned in the same 
condition they were. 

Q. — Could you give us an idea as 
to what it cost to restore the factor- 
ies to their present condition? 

A. — I cannot answer that accurately, 
but my estimate would be between 
something like $60,000 and $75,000. 

Q. — So the actual money burden im- 
posed on the State is $60,000 or $70,- 
000? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — Now, there is a certain amount 
of that indebtedness caused by fire, 
and the amount caused by the fire to 
date represents the amount expended 
to restore the buildings up to the 
present time? 

A. — That does not represent the 
stock. 

Q. — I understand that includes it 
all. 

A. — I don't think so. 

Q. — How much stock? 

A. — I don't know. They replaced 
all that loss, I know. 

Q. — I understand the fire may have 
destroyed $300,000 worth of prop- 
erty, but that does not effect our pres- 
ent financial condition. Of course, the 
loss due to the freezing of the cane is 
purely arbitrary estimate, but that 
don't represent $500,000 indebtedness 
confronting the Prison System. The 
indebtedness might have been reduced 
$500,000 if we had ground the cane 
and sold it. 

A. — Yes, sir; that is true. 

Q. — But there are many things 
that can effect the money received 
from the crop of cane? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What do you know about the 
System managers being permitted to 
pay overtime and accounts of that 
kind to the prisoners direct? Do they 
send in a statement to you direct or 
do you pay the overtime to the cooks 
before the convicts are discharged? 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



145 



You are not paying any now because 
you have nothing to pay with. 

A. — I have heard of no one paying 
out funds for convicts overtime unless 
a convict is to be discharged, and in 
that event they are authorized to pay 
all monies due him. 

Q. — What kind of check do you 
have on him that the amount is 
paid? 

A. — That is the only money paid 
him — when he is discharged. 

Q. — Now is the manager informed 
as to the amount going to the pris- 
oner to be discharged? 

A. — There is a statement sent to 
the manager from the Commission 
advising him of the discharge, etc., 
during the coming month. 

Q. — Do the convicts know how much 
money is coming to them? 

A. — Some do, and some d'on't, I 
think. 

Q. — Do you ever get anything to 
show that the prisoner has received 
the amount due him? 

A. — The sergeant gets a receipt 
from the convict, or he would not 
be re-imbursed by the Prison Com- 
mission. 

Q. — You say to this Committee that 
receipts are taken from the convicts 
by the sergeants? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And based on this receipt, you 
refund the sergenat? 

A. — Yes, sir; and when he buys a 
ticket for the prisoners he also takes 
a receipt for that. All these things 
are paid by voucher. 

Q. — And you don't pay the manager 
except on presentation of the ser- 
geant's receipt signed by the convict? 

A. — Yes, sir. Convicts are not 
allowed to have funds in their pos- 
session while they are convicts. 

Q. — How do you account for the 
fact the records show we have several 
items credited to Mr. Oversby, I 
think for $47, and Mr. Oversby not 
being a convict, but a sergeant? 

A. — I think, as long as the convict 
is in the service, these funds are 
placed in the hands of the sergeant. 

Q. — You mean to say you pay to 
the Sergeant the convict's money to 
be held in trust until the convicts are 
released? 

A. — The financial department. Sena- 
tor, don't carry accounts with con- 
victs direct. Those accounts are 
handled by the warden, and sergeants 
of the different places. My informa- 
tion about it is each warden and man- 
ager was trustee so far as any money 



was concerned, and if a man is, trans- 
ferred from a farm to Huntsville, if 
he had any funds due him by the 
manager of this convict, these funds 
were transferred with him to the 
warden or manager. The financial 
department here absolutely has noth- 
ing to do with this system. 

Q. — Have you anything to do with 
keeping a record of these things? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, here is E. B. Mills, $44.40. 
When these overtimes are computed 
that record was kept here and that 
much credit was given the convict? 

A. — The records kept here are com- 
puted by the sergeant, and sent in 
and approved by the Prison Commis- 
sion, and held in trust for them for 
the convicts. 

Q. — Are these sergeants instructed 
to pay over any part of this money 
to the convicts? 

A. — Before they go out they do. 

Q. — If they are life-time convicts, 
they are to hold it all this time? 

A. — I don't know; probably they are 
to give them a little money. 

Mr. Tittle makes the following 
statement: 

They are permitted to spend this 
money for their own use from time 
to time, but are not allowed to handle 
it or keep it about them. 

Senator John G. Willacy interro- 
gates Mr. Tittle: 

Q. — Instead of having a trustee 
for this convict, don't you think it 
better to have this money handled 
by this office? 

A. — It is too small for us to handle. 
If he wants tobacco or something like 
that he can make a requisition on 
his manager and get the tobacco. He 
can use the money for anything he 
is permitted to buy. 

Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
Tittle: 

Q. — Now if the sergeant fails to 
pay the money over to the convict, 
what recourse has the convict? 

A. — The convict can make a report 
to the Commission, and the manager 
is under bond, and it can be made 
good. 

Senator John G. Willacy interro- 
gates Mr. Tittle: 

Q. — Now, if they want any money 
from time to time, don't you let 
them have it, say money for tobacco, 
etc? 

A. — No, we have not got it, and of 
course if we paid one, we would have 
to pay all the convicts who demanded 
it. 



146 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
imposition being practiced on the con- 
victs ? 

A. — I have never heard of one dur- 
ing the past two years. 

Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
Tittle: 

Q. — You say the guards or ser- 
geants are under bond? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — At no time do they have money 
in their charge excessive of their 
bonds ? 

A. — No, sir. 

Mr. Brahan makes this statement: 

When a man comes into' prison 
they make a note on their books of 
what money he has. If they send him 
to a farm the name and register num- 
ber is sent to the manager of that 
farm. When they get there it is en- 
tered on the manager's ledger that 
the prisoner has so much money. That 
is done for the reason we don't want 
any money accumulating in the build- 
ing, which causes escapes, etc. Dur- 
ing the first year we put in two com- 
missaries belonging to the prison, 
and we got a statement of how much 
they buy; how much sold and how- 
much they buy at the end of the 
month, and if they are able to pay 
them. He can send this to his wife, 
and sometimes some lawyer will offer 
to get them a pardon, over our pro- 
test, for what money they have, that 
we do not think is right, but we have 
advised them not to do it, and not 
spend any money for pardons. I 
know where one negro paid out $160 
for a pardon. However, the receipts 
for this money are all in our office. 

Interrogation of J. C. Hayes re- 
sumed: 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — How long have you been con- 
nected with the penitentiary system? 

A. — I have been financial agent of 
the penitentiary system since Janu- 
ary, 1909. 

Q. — What about the report trans- 
mitted by you to members of the 
Prison Commission of an inspection 
of the different State farms made in 
November last year in which you 
made a particular investigation of 
the permanent improvements on the 
farms? I see you made this state- 
ment on the four farms, together with 
a grand total of $141,428. 

A. — That amount has been carried 
in the operating account. 



Q. — You mean prior to the time in 
which the present law became effec- 
tive all improvements accounts such 
as are included in this statement, 
ditching, fencing, carpentering, etc., 
were carried in the operating ac- 
count ? 

A. — Yes, sir. I was only taking 
into consideration the amount of the 
improvement account, and charged 
off the operating account during this 
administration. 

Q. — Do I understand from January 
20, 1911, to the date of this report, 
it had been customary to include such 
improvements in the operating ac- 
counts ? 

A. — Yes, sir. It shows the amount 
of work that was permanent such as 
ditching, clearing lands, etc., had not 
been reported up to that time. 

Q. — They had records at their 
places on their daily reports, but had 
never made report up to that time to 
the Prison Commission ? 

A. — No, sir; not up to that time. 

Q. — Is it your understanding the 
Commission established a policy No- 
vember, 1912, to have a statement of 
this class of labor or work, and not 
estimate what the value of that work 
as permanent improvements, added 
to the property account? 

A. — From that time on; yes, sir. 

Q. — And it was for that purpose 
you made this statement? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — On what basis were you in- 
structed and how did you make the 
calculations of men and time doing 
the work of ditching, clearing, and so 
on? 

A. — May I refer to that just a 
moment? (Report handed to Mr. 
Hayes.) The specifications of $1.10 
is for man labor, and the $1 per day 
is for mule labor. Will state the 
prices fixed there were placed by me 
by instructions of the Prison Com- 
mission, and was not made by me. 
AH that I did was to compute the 
days actually put in on the different 
classes of work. 

Q. — Were the credits for the farm 
labor made by you on the general 
farm work? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — It is your understanding that 
these credits were made at the rate 
of 50 cents per day? 

A. — Yes, sir; for convicts labor 
over and above maintenance. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



147 



Q. — Why was the allowance of $1.10 
per day made on this class of work? 

A. — My understanding was the 
Prison Commission, when they fur- 
nished maintenance for men — when 
they put men in for improvements on 
this place, it would be the same as 
employing free labor, and it occurs 
to me that this would be a correct 
way of doing that. They get no pro- 
ceeds back only of book records of 
permanent improvements. 

Q. — Have you been doing more or 
less purchasing for the system since 
January, 1911? 

A. — I have been assisting in it. 

Q. — In making your purchases — in 
ordering supplies to be distributed, 
do you believe the present system of 
ordering, distributing and checking is 
sufficiently careful to avoid a leak in 
the system? 

A. — Yes, sir; I do unless you havS 
a dishonest steward or sergeant. If 
the Commission should be unfortu- 
nate enough to have a man not 
making the proper use of them, that 
would be a very unfortunate thing, 
and unless that is the case, I feel 
sure the system would be a good 
one. 

Q. — You know the approximate 
amount of bacon you use at the 
Clemens, Harlem and Imperial farms, 
and you want to send 10,000 pounds 
to each, and you send an order to 
Swift at Fort Worth to ship that, 
what system have you of following 
that up and ascertaining the quanity 
and quality that is delivered? 

A. — I will state when we place 
those orders — and I want to state 
right here on bacon, flour, meal, cof- 
fee and sugar. Those heavy items, 
the Prison Commission has had 
splendid competition. We get bids 
on our bacon from every packing- 
house in the State. 

Q. — This is the question, Mr. 
Haynes; you send an order to Swift 
& Company, Fort Worth, Texas, for 
10,000 pounds bacon to go to the 
Clemens farm. Do you notify the 
manager down there? 

A. — When the order is placed there 
is a copy of that order placed with 
the manager or warden in which it 
shows the price paid, the quality or 
grade of meat purchased and amount. 
Copy of that is also sent to the secre- 
tary of the Prison Commission, and 
the third copy remains on file in the 
finance department. There are three 
invoices that come to this office, and 



when they are received here they are 
numbered and registered. One is re- 
tained, and we mail the other to the 
sergeant. This is received and the 
manager O. K.'s the invoice and 
send the O. K.'d copy back to the 
finance department, and after it is 
O. K.'d in all respects, is passed to 
the bookkeeper to be entered on his 
books. 

Q. — How then is that meat distri- 
buted to the different camps on the 
farms and checked there? 

A. — The only check I have; we buy 
this and send it there, and get the 
reports back here. I have been per- 
sonally too busy to look into the mat- 
ters just asked about; however, will 
say that it is the duty of the steward 
down there to make monthly reports 
to the Commission. 

Q. — No copy of any receipt of rec- 
ord made at each camp is ever re- 
turned to this office? 

A. — I don't get those, and I can't 
say with certainty that each camp re- 
ceipts for what it gets. I cannot say 
as I know nothing about the details 
of each camp. 

Q. — Would you think it necessary 
that such receipts be required and be 
sent to this office in order that a 
complete check be kept on the sup- 
plies ? 

• A. — Yes, sir; I think so. Now, don't 
understand me to say no receipts are 
kept. I am not conversant with this. 
They do, however, send in a monthly 
report of'what they receive, etc., but 
that does not come to me. 

Q. — Were you connected with the 
prison at the time the Corporation 
Audit Company in 1909 made it's 
audit? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the sys- 
tem of accounting the Corporation 
Auditor recommended? 

A. — Yes, sir. I am not an account- 
ant, but to this extent I am familiar 
with it — 

Q. — What I wash to ascertain is 
when the present bookkeeping system 
was installed, and when the system 
of accounting was put into effect in 
its entirety. Was it at this time ? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think it was, and 
it was installed: books, blanks, etc. 

Q. — You visited the farms last year 
to make an inventory of the improve- 
ments of a permanent nature made 
oy the Prison Commission and if you 
are familiar with the character of 
improvements existing at the begin- 



148 



Report and Findings of 



ning of 1911, will you state the con- 
dition of those improvements? 

A. — I am not familiar with those 
improvements, hut from heresay. It 
was badly run down, and the build- 
ings have been practically rebuilt; 
new roofs; new floors, and something 
new about everything. 

Q. — I believe you had in your hand 
just now a list of accounts. What 
did they represent? 

A. — You refer to the accounts 
Senator Warren had? Those ac- 
counts represent the present out- 
standing amounts due the prison sys- 
tem that has been sold to customers 
and various people under the present 
system. 

Q. — Have you a separate state- 
ment of the accounts of the peniten- 
tiary system from sales made prior 
to January 20, 1911? 

A. — No, sir; I have none available, 
but they could be gotten up very 
easily. You mean a statement re- 
garding the collectibility of those ac- 
counts? 

Q. — Yes, sir. Now those other ac- 
counts prior to that time, what pro- 
portion could be collected? 

A. — No, sir; I have none available, 
but they could be gotten up very 
easily. You mean a statement re- 
garding the collectibility of those ac- 
counts? 

Q. — Yes, sir. Now those other ac- 
counts prior to that time, what pro- 
portion could be collected? 

A. — From what I know of them I 
don't consider them of very much 
value. 

Q. — You don't know the amount of 
those? 

A. — No, sir; I do not. 

Mr. Haynes is requested by the 
Committee to furnish a statement of 
accounts, giving names, dates, etc. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — Could you tell us, Mr. Haynes, 
which enters into the items of main- 
tenance and supplies? 

A. — All supplies furnished con- 
sumed by the convicts. 

Q. — There is a separate item of 
$17,291.04; what does tkat cover? 

A. — That means plows, implements 
and any items that may be bought, 
and the items of maintenance takes 
in everything such as clothing, hos- 
pital, supplies, and everything of that 
kind. 

Q. — Now the three items of Crop 
Expense, Maintenance and Supplies 
and Clothing, amounting to $84,- 



307.10; now are these things gotten 
on requisition? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.« — Mr. Tillotson asked you If 
you had any way of following up 
supplies such as had been bought, to 
ascertain if the quantity and quality 
had been received. 

A. — This is furnished by the ser- 
gent showing what we had bought, 
and we have to depend on the man- 
agers and stewards. 

*Q. — Now the Imperial farm has 
items of crop expense, $9,315.42, 
Maintenance and supplies, $69,935.50 
and clothing $14,400.61, making a 
total of $94,646.51. Are all these 
supplies gotten on requisition? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Could you approximate the to- 
tal amount for the several farms? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Several hundred thousand dol- 
lars? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. There is 
$170,000 in the Harlem and Imperial. 
I would suppose it would amount to 
about one-half million dollars, ap- 
proximately. 

Q. — We are buying on a competi- 
tive basis as to price and quality, 
and if there is no way to follow up 
the purchases, and if the quality does 
not come up to the quality purchased, 
of say even 10 per cent., then you 
would lose $50,000, would you not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think it worth while to 
follow this up and get what is or- 
dered? 

A. — The Prison Commission has 
an inspector who goes in there and 
inspects food and supplies, but he 
can't be there all the time, and it 
is going in there all the while. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
how much has been expended on any 
of the leased or rented lands in the 
way of permanent improvements? 

A. — No, sir; I don't know. 

Q. — You found that the supplies 
purchased and delivered to the sev- 
eral farms did not come up in qual- 
ity to what was sold you on com- 
petitive bid, and for what the State 
paid? 

Mr. Tittle makes the following 
statement: 

I found that was so when I first 
came into office, and for several 
months after that, and that applies 
to everything we purchased. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



149 



Senator John G. Willacy interro- 
gates Mr. Tittle: 

Q. — Were the supplies purchased 
and sent to the managers, with the 
prices at the time you speak of? 

A.^Yes, sir. 

Q. — And was the grade of supplies 
purchased inferior to that which you 
ordered and paid for? 

A.- — Yes, sir; and we sent an in- 
spector to places where complaints 
were made, and lots of bacon was 
turned down and sent back to the 
factory, and it would amount to about 
10 per cent, or more on the grade, 
but every manager and steward has 
instructions in writing to report on 
this. We leave it up to the manager 
and steward. 

Q. — Is that under control of the 
manager or Commission? 

A. — It is under control of the man- 
ager, or Commission. Both. 

Interrogation of Mr. Haynes re- 
sumed: 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — How much money has been ex- 
pended for improvements on any of 
these rental lands? 

A. — On the Ransome place quite a 
little improvement. 

Q. — How much was that? 

A. — $15,000 to $20,000. 

Q. — And we have that only rented? 

A. — Yes, sir; that is the only place 
I know of. 

Q. — There has been no other land 
cleared on rented land? 

A. — Yes, sir; in one or two places; 
it was some clearing of brush. 

Q. — Does the cost of clearing land 
amount to any more than the pay- 
ing for the land? 

A. — No, sir; not as much. 

Q. — Now, in regard to the certain 
tract of land we have only rented 
upon which the $15,000 or $20,000 
improvements have been placed, has 
that been charged against the own- 
er of the land, or will we get it back? 

A. — If the State buys it, the own- 
er has to pay 25 per cent, of the im- 
provements. I think this correct, ac- 
cording to my recollection. 

Q. — Is that a written contract? 

A. — No, sir; we have no written 
contract, excepting a letter. 

Q. — How long does that lease run? 

A. — The first of January, and the 
right to renew the lease, but don't 
know whether the option will run 
for five more years. 

Q. — You have nothing but a let- 
ter with which to protect the State? 

A. — That's all. 



Q. — Is it such improvements that 
could be moved off without much 
loss? 

A. — Considerable loss. 

Q. — How much are you paying per 
acre for that land? 

A. — One-fourth of the crop. 

Q. — No option to pay money rent? 

A. — No option. It was the first 
one we made. 

Q. — And you are certain you have 
an option to renew the lease period 
five years, nve years from January 
1, 1914? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In that option, is the State 
fully protected for the investment of 
permanent improvements? In other 
words, is there any agreement be- 
tween the State and the owner of 
the land where the State is to be re- 
imbursed for the value of these im- 
provements put on this land? 

A. — No sir; it is only if we buy it. 

Q. — Was there a great deal of 
ditching done? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — The State gets no compensa- 
tion for that? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What were the terms upon 
which we rented it? 

A. — One-fourth the crop. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — How much cash would you 
have to have to make the first pay- 
ment, and what were the terms on 
the deferred payments? 

A. — It did not say in the option. 
Mr. Brahan is better acquainted with 
it than I am. 

Mr. Brahan makes statement: 

Nothing stated. I will state this; 
and I don't believe the man would 
take an advantage of any technicality 
of any kind. There was nothing said 
about taking notes or anything. 

Mr. Tillotson interrogates Mr. Bra- 
han: 

Q. — Is that the only rented place 
on which you have put permanent 
improvements? 

A. — We put improvements on all 
places we rent, and we try to rent 
land where every stick of wood cut is 
| in the way of improvements. 

Q. — Is there any compensating fea- 
ture to the State? 

A. — No. sir. Just about like any 
tenant. If he runs a water furrow, 
digs a ditch, he gets nothing for it. 

Q. — The reason you do that is to 
cultivate the land easily? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



150 



Report and Findings of 



Interrogation of J. C. Haynes re- 
sumed. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson; 

Q. — Were you once the State Pur- 
chasing Agent? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
methods of other State purchasing 
agents; other State institutions? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is it your judgment, having 
knowledge of the purchasing meth- 
ods of the State agent's office, and 
as financial agent of this system, that 
any saving could be made of sta- 
ple articles by having the purchases 
of the penitentiary system made 
through the State agent? 

A. — I think not. 

Q. — State briefly your conclusions? 

A. — To begin with, the material 
purchased for these factories are not 
to be combined with like purchases, 
for the factory would be at a stand- 
still, and the business would close 
down, and the men doing nothing. 
He might get out and work and buy 
all the various character of supplies 
he desires purchasing for the peni- 
tentiary, and the very next day some- 
thing else would come up not an- 
ticipated. I don't believe it to ad- 
vantage to buy the supplies in Aus- 
tin unless headquarters were located 
there so you could get at it. 

Q. — You are familiar with the 
shoes made in this penitentiary, and 
you are familiar with the class of 
shoes purchased by the State for its 
institutions. Is it your judgment 
that the penitentiary can manufac- 
ture shoes properly for the inmates 
of the different State institutions? 

A. — Yes, sir; with this explana- 
tion: At the present time the State 
is getting shoes for its institutions 
a little cheaper than we could make 
them, but taking the wearing qual- 
ity into consideration, believe we 
can manufacture them here, employ- 
ing convicts' labor not adapted to 
other pursuits, and at the same time 
save the State money. 

Q. — Do you think in that way you 
could employ a great many inmates 
of the penitentiary now unemployed, 
who would be at least self-support- 
ing? 

A. — Yes, sir. I think such arti- 
cles as mattresses, and other arti- 
cles could be manufactured here, 
too. 

Q. — Did you, as State agent, have 
occasion to buy much furniture? 



A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Does the penitentiary make 
any furniture that they would prob- 
ably need? 

A. — No, sir; but practically all fur- 
niture, such as kitchen tables and 
chairs, can be made here. 

Q. — Taking meats, flour and pro- 
visions of all kinds for the State in- 
stitutions, do you buy the same qual- 
ity here? 

A. — No, sir; we do not; for the 
State institutions buy ham, bacon, 
and things we don't buy here. 

By Mr. W. O. Diffie: 

Q. — Are you acquainted with the 
material out of which they make 
their shoes? Do they buy substi- 
tutes such as leather horn fibre? 

A. — We buy pure leather, and that 
is the advantage in supplying the 
State institutions, even if it were 
higher in price, and this is one of 
the advantages we would have in 
supplying them, as it would be bet- 
ter than the cheap shoes sold them. 



SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Testimony of J. B. Robinett. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — What is your name? 

A. — J. B. Robinett. 

Q. — What position do you hold? 

\. — Bookkeeper. 

Q. — Have you charge of all the 
accounts in the system? 

A. — Yes, sir? 

Q. — Could you tell us without 
much delay the actual amount of in- 
debtedness against the prison sys- 
tem up to April 21st? 

A. — No, sir; a statement is now 
being prepared, and will be fur- 
nished you within the next few days. 

Q. — Have you any idea what the 
total amount of outstanding obliga- 
tions not included in that statement? 

A. — I should say from $65,000 to 
$70,000. 

Q. — Not included in the enumera- 
tion given there? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you keep the accounts be- 
tween the system and the employes 
of the system? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Does the system furnish any 
of its manufactured products to any 
of its employes? 

A. — They do in the State's houses. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



151 



Q. — Does the prison sell any of 
its products to employes? 

A. — In some instances. 

Q. — How do you arrive at the 
prices charged? 

A. — The prices are made by the 
foreman at the shops. 

Q. — Do you know what he in- 
cludes in making up the price? 

A. — He charges according to the 
labor and material going into the 
work. 

Q. — Does he sell it at actual cost? 

A. — Xo, he makes a profit on it. 

Q. — Could you approximate the 
amount of what is done? 

A. — I guess it will average $25 
or $50 per month. 

Q. — The amounts are not import- 
ant in a sense of being large? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — I asked for a summary of 
the following amounts a while ago, 
and requested how quickly you could 
comply with it. That is, the sum- 
mary of the amounts paid for over- 
time, per diem, interest, bills pay- 
able, and the amounts paid for the 
transportation of discharged con- 
victs, and increase of salary of the 
employes. Has there been any in- 
crease of salary to employes? 

A. — $5 per month increased guard 
salary under the new law. 

Q. — Also the additional salary un- 
der the new law increasing the cost 
per capita on the total prison popu- 
lation. Now have you figured out 
the cost of the various supplies? 

A. — I can not see how we can ar- 
rive at that on account of the fluc- 
tuation on groceries, and other prod- 
ucts bought for the prison system. 

Q. — Can you give us some infor- 
mation in regard to loss of revenue 
per annum as a result of abolish- 
ing the lease system; the increased 
cost of embalming? 

A. — No, sir. 

( Mr. J. B. Robinett is requested 
by the Committee to get this in- 
formation up for them, which he 
did in detail and turned over to Mr. 
Willacy.) 

Q. — When we purchased on the 
credit system, how do we pay for 
those supplies? Do you issue a note? 

A. — Yes, sir; a note when request- 
ed to close the open account. 

Q. — Do you have a uniform rate 
of interest? 

A. — It varies mostly from 6 to 8 
per cent. 



Q. — Anything higher than 8 per 
cent? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — Here is a statement through 
Chairman Cabell from Mr. King the 
manager of the furniture factory, 
showing disposition of goods to the 
State residences, and prison accounts 
with the State's employes. When 
this furniture is placed in the State 
residences is it inventoried and the 
value entered in your records? 

A. — Yes, sir. The particular res- 
idence in which the furniture is 
placed is shown in the report made 
by this department. 

Q. — Is there a record in the office 
of the Commission as to the cost 
of the buildings; cost of the improve- 
ments on the buildings, and the fur- 
niture that is placed in the building? 

A. — There is a record of perman- 
ent improvement charges for all fur- 
niture and other material furnished 
to the residences and other prison 
industries. 

Q. — Then the furniture that goes 
into the residences is not carried in 
a separate account? 

A. — It is carried in the inventory 
account called Prison Furniture and 
Fixtures. 

Q. — Have you an idea of the value 
of the furniture in each residence 
in Huntsville today? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — There is nothing of record in 
your department that would reveal 
the amount of furniture. 

A. — I think there is a list of fur- 
niture made up by Mr. King from 
time to time. 

Q. — -Would you be able to express 
an opinion as to the value of the 
furniture in the different residences? 

A. — I could not say. I don't re- 
member, but an itemized list of all 
that is kept. Mr. King, foreman of 
the Cabinet Department, can tell 
you. 

Q. — This is the matter Mr. Moore 
called attention to. Has it been the 
practice to hold invoices and bills 
until such time as the accounts were 
paid, or until such time you paid 
cash or settled it by note? 

A. — As soon as an invoice has been 
properly approved, it is carried to 
our records; passed to credit, and 
the department charged with same, 
regardless of when the account may 
be closed by note, or settled. All 
accounts that have been properly ap- 



152 



Report and Findings of 



proved at the end of each month 
are taken into our records. 

Q. — Have you given the system of 
accounting, recommended by Mr. 
Huey, any consideration? 

A. — I have not heard his system 
fully outlined. 

Q. — From what you have learned 
of the system recommended by Mr. 
Huey, and your knowledge of the 
details of accounting in the peniten- 
tiary system, do you think his recom- 
mendations are calculated to meet 
the requirements for a betterment of 
operations. 

A. — He has made several sugges- 
tions along different lines, but for 
the general systems, I have never 
seen his recommendation. 

Q. — Would you recommend any 
other system for reducing expenses 
or establishing a check on handling 
the supplies? 

A. — With a bookkeeper on each 
of these farms it would help us out 
considerably in making these re- 
ports and sending them back to us 
promptly. 

Q. — Would that reduce the labor 
to any extent? 

A. — No, sir; but it would help us 
considerably. 

Q. — Do you think there could be 
found among the convicts trusties 
that could be the bookkeepers on 
the farms? 

A. — I am not prepared to say. I 
never come in contact with them 
enough to say. 

Q. — Otherwise it would entail 
quite a little expense to have a man 
on the farm? 

A. — Yes, sir; you would have to 
pay a good bookkeeper a good sal- 
ary, but the accounts could be kept 
so as to furnish more detail in op- 
erations and annual statements. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
the policy of carrying the operating 
account and maintenance account, 
and how it might happen items will 
come under the operating account 
one year and another year in another 
account? 

A. — We keep an auxilary set of 
books for maintenance, tools, etc. 

Q. — How do you separate the 
maintenance and operating accounts? 

A. — The operating account is kept 
on the general books in one account, 
but is shown in detail on the auxil- 
iary or farm books. That is, show- 
ing the maintenance, pay roll and 
other operating expenses separate 
and in detail. 



Q. — Who makes these classifica- 
tions? 

A. — We do in the office. 

Q. — In the bookkeeping depart- 
ment? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you any general instruc- 
tion from the Commission to use 
your own classification? 

A. — We have been instructed to 
keep these accounts separate; that 
is, the operating and property ac- 
counts. 

Q. — Could you state in brief the 
implements and tools that go in the 
operating account? 

A. — Plows, big plows, we carry in 
the property account. Singletree and 
small implements, that are easily 
broken are placed in the operating 
account. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — About your cash on hand; 
now, where do you carry your bal- 
ance? 

A. — In different banks. The 
cashier handles the cash. 

Q. — Can you tell us what the av- 
erage daily balances are in these dif- 
ferent banks? 

A. — I would have to get you a 
daily statement. 

Q. — Can you tell us about the av- 
erage""? 

A. — I could not say. 

Q. — Do we sometimes have over- 
drafts on the local banks? 

A. — I am not prepared to say. 

Q. — You say you have no system 
of bookeeping on the farm at all? 

A. — I have never been on the 
farms, and don't know the manner 
in which the accounts are kept. 

Q. — You don't receive any state- 
ments from the farms? 

A. — No, sir; only on charges from 
one farm to another, and the prod- 
ucts shipped, such as corn, cotton, 
and things of this kind they report 
to this office. 

By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 

Q. — There was one matter refer- 
red to yesterday in reference to the 
question of entries of "cooks" on the 
disbursement statement. Explain 
what these entries mean. 

A. — That is overtime paid the con- 
victs for Sunday work, and extra 
work. First class cooks get $5 per 
month, and $1 per day is paid over- 
time for work performed by other 
convicts. We have not paid any 
overtime for fifteen months, except 
when a convict is discharged. The 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



153 



amount he has earned is paid him 
at that time. 

Q. — During 1911 for one month 
there is an aggregate of over $1000 
for cooks? 

A. — That must have been the 
amount paid to men discharged that 
month that had been here from time 
to time. 

Q. — How long have they been 
earning that overtime? 

A. — Since January 2 0, 1911. 

Q. — How long back would that 
cover? 

A. — We would have to get the dis- 
charge papers to tell you that. If 
we discharge a man today, for in- 
stance, the overtime he has earned 
is paid him in full on discharge. 

Q. — I see "J. S. Murphy, Septem- 
ber, $12.75." What did you do with 
that? Did you pay it to him in 
cash? 

A. — We paid Mr. Murphy in cash. 

Q. — Who got the cash? 

A. — The convicts. 

Q. — Does the report stipulate to 
whom paid and what amount? 

A. — Yes, sir; the convict's name 
and number and his occupation is 
shown on the overtime report. 

Q. — -Do I understand that the 
cook's overtime is paid for as he 
earns it each month, but the general 
convict overtime is not paid for until 
the end of his service? What was 
the rule when you had the money? 

A. — We would remit to the ser r 
geant monthly, and the sergeant 
would pay the convict, and place to 
his credit. 

Q. — You have nothing signed by 
the convict who received the money? 

A. — Nothing; but it is signed by 
the sergeant. 

Mr. Tittle interrogates Mr. Robi- 
nett: 

Q. — The present policy of the 
Commission toward payment of over- 
time to the different convicts, as I 
understand Mr. Robinett, the amount 
of convict overtime is placed to his 
credit on the books of the system 
until the day of his discharge? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — All his overtime is then fig- 
ured, and the sum due is paid in a 
lump on discharge, and no money 
paid to him while he is in the peni- 
tentiary? 

A. — No, sir; only in 1911, and 
since then we bave not been able to 
pay it only on discharge. 



Mr. Warren interrogates Mr. Rob- 
inett; 

Q. — What do you owe on the con- 
vict overtime account for the year 
1911. 

A. — We don't owe anything. We 
owe about $14,000 for convict over- 
time that has not been paid. This 
means all the convicts in the peni- 
tentiary. 

Q. — For the year 1912, I under- 
stand overtime has been accruing, 
and is being carried now on the 
s books as a credit to the different 
convicts. The cooks are treated in 
the same way? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q- — There is no overtime paid to 
! convicts since 1912, except on dis- 
charge of men? 
i A. — No, sir. 

Q. — I see there are three cooks 
cooking under Mr. Murphy's direc- 
tion; he reported to you there was 
$12.75 due them for the month of 
September, and you sent him check 
1 for it? 

A. — Yes, sir; however, when you 
make a cash payment you do not 
credit them with it. 

Q- — What year is that? 

A.— 1911. 

Q. — I thought it was 1912? 

A. — No, sir; 1911. 



SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Testimony of R. M. Warden: 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — What is your name? 

A. — R. M. Warden. 

Q. — Will you explain in your own 
way in a few words to the Commit- 
tee just how you handle the con- 
victs in the penitentiary? 

A. — When a convict is brought to 
the penitentiary, the first thing we 
do is to take him to the bath room. 
He takes a bath, and is given his 
clothing. Then the next place, he is 
taken to the measurement man, Mr. 
Jones, who takes his measurement, 
and they are then taken to the hos- 
pital to be examined, and after ex- 
amination they are taken to what is 
known as the "dummy" and all new 
men are put on the "dummy" until 
assigned to their work. The "dum- 
my" is the inside work such as un- 
loading cars of coal, and work of 
that kind. We have men who oper- 
ate the "dummy" force, and nfter we 



154 



Report and Findings of 



get the men located we take them 
out of there. We locate them as a 
rule from the doctor's report. He 
examines them hoth physically and 
mentally. Some are first; some sec- 
ond, and some third grades. If he 
has a leg off, he is in the third grade; 
and if partially crippled in one arm 
he is third grade. Before I get to 
this, however, while they are being- 
dressed out, I have my clerks to take 
down their names; take the amount 
of money each one of them has on 
hand, and then have a sergeant who 
receives that money from each and 
every one. For instance, here is a 
book (indicating book) that shows 
just exactly how much each man 
has, and I give him a receipt for that 
money. That is given to him the 
next day after we find out how much 
he has, and we give him a receipt for 
that, and then I deposit that fund in 
the bank. We have two funds. I 
deposit one in the Huntsville State 
bank and one in the Gibbs National 
bank. I have a statement here show- 
ing exactly the amount due each con- 
vict in this prison up to the first day 
of May. I put the commissary fund 
in the Gibbs National bank, and the 
convicts' fund in the Huntsville State 
bank, and then I keep an accurate 
account of the funds in each bank. 

Q. — About what is the total 
amount of that fund? 

A. — In the commissary fund 
$82 5.91; in the convict fund in the 
Huntsville State Bank it is $3,- 
647.51. There is $288.70 that are 
in checks outstanding that have not 
been paid yet; not paid up to the 
first of this month, but the amount 
to my credit in the bank is $3,647.51. 

Q. — How do they acquire an inter- 
est in this commissary fund? 

A. — They got that before I came 
here. I have only been here since 
the first of January. 

Q. — What is the purpose of that 
fund? 

A. — It is to aid the convicts. For 
instance, they have had a show or 
two here, and the proceeds would go 
to the commissary fund. 

Q. — -Where do they get the benefit 
out of the commissary fund? 

A. — They buy commissary tickets, 
and give an order. They don't gei 
any money, but get a ticket, or any- 
thing in that way, such as tobacco, 
or anything kept in the commissary. 

Q. — How are they assigned to la- 
bor in the several jobs? 

A. — If a man who is a common la- 



borer, and who takes an interest in 
work, we assign him to a place that 
we think would benefit him when he 
goes out. We have men who have 
handled tools, and we put them to 
work here in the cabinet shop or ma- 
chine shop, and try to classify him 
in that way. 

Q. — How long have you been war- 
den? 

A. — Since January 1. 

Q. — Can you tell us if the food is 
better than it used to be? 

A. — I could not say. 

Q. — How about the general con- 
duct of the men?. 

A. — As a rule, it is very good. Of 
course, some are very unruly, but 
you could not pick out 600 or 700 
men in any place without finding 
some you could not get along with. 

Q. — Are there many of them? 

A. — No, sir; we have only ten or 
twelve in stripes. The discipline is 
as good as in almost any Federal 
prison. I have been in almost all of 
the Federal prisons. 

Q. — Have you any more convicts in 
the walls than you actually need for 
employment in the walls? 

A.— Yes, sir; we have men we ab- 
solutely need for nothing. 

Q. — About how much surplus have 
you? 

A. — Possibly 130 or 140 men more 
than we can use to advantage. 

Q. — Now are the shoe and tailor 
shops full up? 

A. — They have al the men they can 
use, and I don't think they can use 
any more men in the blacksmith 
shop. 

Q. — Do you get enough work to 
keep the machine shop busy? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 

Q. — What little funds you have on 
hand of the convicts, how many have 
you with comparatively la r g e 
amounts? What is the largest 
amounts any of the convicts have? 

A. — The largest one we have is 
four hundred dollars and something, 
and one has three hundred dollars 
and something, and one has $211.60, 
and another has $277.90, and then 
they have all the way down to 10 
cents. 

Q. — You are looking at November, 
1912. Is that the right account? 

A. — I wanted to look at April. 
Here is one (indicating on book), for 
$60.55, and here is one for $133.30, 
and one for $300.45, one for 
$478.25. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



155 



Q. — Is that the largest you have? 

A. — Yes, sir; and then they all run 
down from that to ten and fifteen 
cents, hut we have to keep an account 
with every individual. 

Q. — They are drawing no interest? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What about the overtime? 

A. — It is not paid now. 

Q. — They will deposit it with the 
rest? 

A. — When it is paid it will be de- 
posited with the rest. 

Q. — How much money do you let a 
convict have at one time? 

A.' — When a man is dressed in if 
he has a small amount like fifteen 
cents I let him keep that, but if he 
has as much as a quarter it is taken 
away from him. 

By Judge W. O. Dime: 

Q. — Does that embrace all monies 
on the farms? 

A. — Nothing but what is behind 
the walls. 

Q. — Do you know where the other 
records are kept? 

A. — I suppose they are kept on the 
farm. Now when we transfer a man 
to the Imperial farm, for instance, 
we go to the record, get the name 
and number; see how much money 
he has here; we then add that up; 
get the amount of it, and send the 
manager a check for that, and ask 
him for a receipt. 

Q. — Can different men who have 
money use this for any purpose he 
'wants to? 

A. — Yes, sir; the system does not 
allow him to use money inside the 
prison. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — These items represented in 
this list (indicating), have they been 
paid out? 

A. — No, sir. The first day of every 
month we send a man who has an ac- 
count a statement and let him verify 
it, and then if it is not right, I call 
him in. I had one yesterday who 
said we owed him more and — 

Q. — In grading a man and classify- 
ing him, how do you classify him? 

A. — If a man has been good — if he 
has had a clear record, in other words 
when a man enters the prison, he en- 
ters as a second grade man. He 
then has the privilege of going up to 
the first grade or going down to the 
third, and at the expiration of three 
months if he has been good, I re- 
commend him to the first grade, and 
if he has been disobedient, I put him 
in the third grade. 



Q. — How many demerits does he 
have to get before he is put in the 
third grade? 

A. — For mutiny, assault, or any- 
thing of that kind he can be put in 
the third grade, but for any minor 
offenses such as smoking in his cell, 
he would have to commit three of 
these small offenses before he could 
be reduced. 

Q. — What is the shortest time you 
reduced a man to third grade after 
he came to the walls? 

A. — I can't call to my mind any- 
one now within two or three months, 
but have recommended several to be 
raised from second to first grade. 

Q. — Since you have been warden 
here have you recommended or tak- 
en any from the third up to the sec- 
ond grade? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You think you have in the 
third grade all who should be there 
by proper classification? 

A. — No, sir; there are now ten or 
twelve, and when they are graded up 
I think there will be possibly twenty 
or twenty-five. 



SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
HUNTS VILLE, TEXAS. 

Testimony of Frank M. Nash. 

By Senator John G. Willacy. 

Q. — Give the stenographer your 
name. • 

A. — Frank M. Nash. 

Q. — What is your occupation? 

A. — Master mechanic. 

Q. — Have you charge of the ma- 
chine shop? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many men do you work 
in the wagon shop? 

A. — I have nothing to do with the 
wagon shop. I have the machine 
shop, tin shop and boiler shop and 
furniture. 

Q. — Do you do any custom work? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you enough to keep any 
particular number of men employed? 

A. — We are working 117 men, that 
is, charged up against the machine 
shop, including power shop, light 
plant, etc. 

Q. — Do you repair your own loco- 
motives; the three on the Clemens 
Farm? 4 

A. — There is only one small locomo- 
tive on the Clemens Farm — thirty 
or forty ton. 



156 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — What size cylinder? 

A. — Sixteen inch in diameter. 

Q. — You take in custom work? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How do you keep check on the 
cost of work in the shop? 

A. — When the order comes in, we 
enter it on a daily work book, and 
then give it to a shop number, and 
also a register number, and from that 
we send it out to the department that 
has anything to do with that parti- 
cular shop, and when it is O. K.'d, 
it is returnded to this office. That 
is an actual transaction (indicating) 
I handed you there. 

Q. — This work is done for some 
local citizen? 

A. — Yes, sir; and when that comes 
back to the office it is entered on 
these cards, (indicating). The 
amounts which appear on the cards 
is the actual cost of this piece of 
work. 

Q. — That indicates what you receiv- 
ed for it? (Indicating). 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is the price, and this indi- 
cates the cost? 

A. — Yes, sir; and then it is taken 
from the card and entered on a book 
ruled like this. (Exhibits book). 

Q. — Do you find in doing this local 
work it is profitable to the State? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You figure out the cost for 
material and cost for labor?- 

A. — Yes, sir. We figure $1.10 for 
labor, and we double the overhead 
charges. I established that rule in 
my shop, based on charges in the 
Navy, etc., and what it costs us, and 
at the end of the month compare 
them. I am at work now trying to 
eliminate all non-productive labor 
out of the shop so as to make every 
man in the shop productive labor. 

Q. — You are trying to make every 
man in the System a productive man? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, that one item, you make 
it for $.3, and sell it for $6. What do 
you base that charge on? 

A. — I represent those charges 
based on my experience throughout 
the State. 

Q. — What is your experience in re- 
gard to this kind of work? 

A. — I was foreman of a shop in 
Dallas for fifteen years, and foreman 
in two or three ships before that, 
and had a good deal of experience 
in contracting work in machine shops. 



Q. — What do you make your cast- 
ings out of? 

A. — Scrap iron; however, that de- 
pends on the grade. If the scrap 
iron I have is hard, I use pig. 

Q. — What kind of fuel do you have? 

A.— Coke. 

Q. — Where does it come from? 

A. — Alabama. 

Q. — Do you ship it direct? 

A. — Ship it direct. 

Q. — Sometimes you get work to do 
that you don't get paid for? 

A. — I know nothing about that. 
i|makeafi-good 

Q. — Do you think a machine shop 
and boiler shop and foundry, such as 
is under your supervision and direc- 
tion is paying now? 

A. — Our last year's report and an- 
nual report shows it to be a paying 
shop. 

Q.— In addition to your work done 
in your several shops, do you take 
men and train them along this line 
of labor? 

A. — I keep a lookout for men with 
long terms, but sometimes I have 
to take anyone I can get. I try for 
young men *with a long term. 

Q. — Do you have convicts for 
foreman? 

A. — Yes, sir. The foreman of our 
foundry is conducting the business 
just as if he owned it. He takes all 
the interest in the foundry work 
that he possibly can. 

Q. — What number of men could 
you operate in there profitably witti 
your present equipment? 

A. — Probably twenty men. 

Q. — Now as to equipments, are 
they the latest improved? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — A foundry, I should judge, is 
somewhat different from the ordin- 
ary class of work. You find no great 
number of men who make good at 
this? 

A. — I have a great deal of trouble 
of this kind. I work a great many 
Mexicans in the factory. I consider 
them to be a good force of men. 

Q. — Do you find a market for your 
engines? 

A. — We have sold none lately. We 
have been in no position to put them 
on the market, and then I wanted to 
change the details and measure- 
ments, and change the blue prints, 
etc. 

Q. — Do you think you can build 
them as cheaply and as good as 
other machinists? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think better. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



157 



Q. — Do you build boilers? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Does the penitentiary system 
ever sell any to th« State institu- 
tions? 

A. — Yes, sir; we sent one to the 
Confederate Home last summer, and 
I think a penitentiary boiler is in the 
Insane Asylum at Terrell. 

Q. — I notice every year there are 
several institutions asking for new 
boilers. Can they be manufactured 
in the penitentiary and compete with 
prices of competitors? 

A. — Xo, sir; we could not furnish 
them any cheaper, but our boilers 
are thoroughly good boilers, and we 
have several in saw mills other than 
the State property who are very 
much pleased with them. 

Q. — Where do you get your sheet 
iron? 

A. — This we have on hand now 
we got from Rice & Co. two years 
ago. 

Q. — So you think men readily ad- 
just themselves to this work? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And you think the custom 
work pays? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Senator Robt. L. Warren: 

Q. — In addition to what you have 
answered, do you think it would be 
profitable to the State of Texas to 
extend this machine shop? 

A. — I think the foundry part 
would be all right, as the foundry 
part is hardly large enough for the 
machine shop. 

Q. — Do you think it profitable if 
it were made larger? 

A. — No, sir; there is a limit to 
that. 

Q. — Do you have any difficulty in 
adjusting men to conditions of the 
machine shop? 

A. — None at all. I don't want to 
fool with a man who does not like it. 



SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Testimony by Albert E. King. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — What is your name? 

A. — Albert E. King. 

Q. — How long have you been fore- 
man? 

A. — I entered the service in 1892. 

Q. — And been out how long? 

A. — I entered as assistant fore- 
man eight years, and at the death of 



the foreman I took his place; with 
the exception of one year, 1910,- 
when I was in Dallas. 

Q. — Do you find a ready market 
for all that you manufacture? 

A. — Yes, sir; we have found a 
ready sale for everything we manu- 
facture. 

Q. — How do you do; accumulate 
a lot of furniture, or sell on orders? 

A. — The sales we are now mak- 
ing are mail orders and coming from 
customers we have had previously. 
I made a trip the other day and sold 
about $1200 worth of furniture. 

Q. — But before that? 

A. — The furniture was sold to job- 
bers, and that which was not sold 
by jobbers was taken up by dealers. 

Q. — Do you figure .out you get a 
profit on all the furniture you manu- 
facture? 

A. — Yes, sir; we figure on getting 
a profit of from eighteen per cent to 
twenty-four per cent in carload lots. 
On local lots we get from twenty- 
four per cent to thirty per cent. 

Q. — How do you figure on the 
cost? 

A. — First is the lumber; then I 
add the freight; then I add the hand- 
ling of the lumber at this end and 
then the lumber is brought into the 
machine shop and I charge from $12 
| to $20 per thousand for machining 
the lumber — that is, owing to the 
class of furniture we make. If it 
is an ordinary table that does not re- 
quire much machining it does not 
cost so much. We take the cost of 
I the bench room and figure what an 
j average man's services would be that 
week in making that table, and then 
j we add the cost of glue, and the dif- 
i ferent things in order to make the 
furniture, and from that it goes into 
the finishing room and add the cost 
there on the furniture, such as labor, 
etc., and from there it goes into the 
trimming room where such things as 
handles, locks, hinges, etc., go on, 
and. also add the cost of crating and 
to that we add three per cent for 
wear and tear that is supposed to pay 
for oil paints, and wear and tear in 
the machine rooms and tools used 
In the making of the furniture, and 
then on to that we add the employes 
accounts, and I get that from the 
amount of business done during the 
year and the pro rata of the cost of 
the different people in that depart- 
ment, and it will be about ten per 
cent, if we do a business of $40,- 
000 per year, and the salary is 



158 



Report and Findings of 



$2000, we make about forty-five per 
•cent. Now I always figure my cost 
high enough to cover that. I always 
add the waste to lumber when I 
figure on the cost. If it takest sixty 
feet of lumber to make a particular 
chest, I add forty per cent waste, and 
where cedar costs $60 per thousand 
I figure it at $80 per thousand. 

Q. — Are you making a profit on 
this furniture? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you do any custom work 
around in the community?- 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you figure on a price that 
will make a profit? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How about your convict la- 
bor, and no doubt there are a great 
number who are not trained in your 
particular line of work. Do they ad- 
just themselves very readily? 

A. — During the last two years I 
have had little trouble with labor, 
as I have been given the privilege of 
selecting the labor as it comes to me. 
We have no guard in our factory, and 
we find they want to work and help 
all they can, and I find in every in- 
stance where I have been able to get 
a first-class man — an average man 
— with me, they make very fine 
workmen, and are very anxious to 
learn the trade. Sometimes they feel 
like, after working there for a while, 
that they would like to do some other 
work. I don't object. I have a 
young fellow I have only had four 
weeks. He can make a nice table, 
and do just as nice work as can be 
done. I have two or three others 
who have been with me about three 
or four months who do just as good 
work as anyone on the outside. 

Q. — Have you any surplus furni- 
ture on hand now? 

A. — Yes, sir; some. -We are making 
furniture all the time, and have to 
move it from the factory to the ware- 
house just as fast as we can on ac- 
count of our floor room, and several 
days ago I went out and — 

Q. — In figuring up the cost of man- 
ufacturing, do you include the expense 
of selling? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you making furniture at a 
nice profit? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — If the factory was enlarged 
could you make a profit? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think it could be 
made one of the best paying institu- 
tions in the State. 



Q. — Do you find any prejudice 
against convict-made furniture? 

A. — No, sir. 

Mr. Ben E. Cabell interrogates Mr. 
King: 

Q. — Mr. King, if you purchase your 
material — or lumber that is not sea- 
soned, or bargain for that kind, would 
that add to the profit? 

A. — No, sir; it would not, as the 
freight would amount to much more 
on green lumber than on the dry. 

Q. — You have been working in the 
shop you are now in charge of with 
guards: and you are now working 
without guards. Which plan is best? 

A. — It works out a great deal bet- 
ter without guards. Now, if we were 
to work 150 or 200 men like we used 
to, we could eliminate the guards if 
we had another foreman. Men will 
work under a foreman better than a 
guard, but we would have to have 
another foreman. 

Q. — Has your factory been hurt in 
the fall of the year by taking men 
out and sending them to the cane 
fields? What effect does that have 
on the men? 

A. — In the summer time we don't 
need the men, it shows a debit against 
our shop, and they put them on the 
farms when we do need them. 

Q. — Are the men working in the 
shop in the shade fit to go to work 
in the fields ? If these men are taken 
down on the farm, what do these 
fellows look like when they get back ? 

A. — Some are fit men when they 
go off, and you would hardly know 
them when they get back, and as a 
rule they don't come back in good 
shape, but so far as the factory is 
concerned the loss is in the summer 
time when the men are crowded in 
on us, and force the shop to take 
care of them. The men are in each 
other's way, and we have to take 
care of them. They used to transfer 
men from the farms, leaving them 
here three or four days, and they 
would be put on the lumber yard 
gang, and one time we had twenty- 
three men for a month when we only 
needed three or four, and then in the 
fall of the year when we ought to 
have had lots of men, they took them 
away from us. We were handicapped 
in every way possible. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — What does lumber cost — or the 
per cent what factor does it cut in 
the cost of a piece of furniture? 

A. — About ten per cent. The fact 



...V 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



159 



of the matter is, we have to buy the 
lumber where we can and when we 
can. You cannot buy lumber like 
hardware and get it anywhere. We 
have to write to the mills and locate 
this lumber, and find out if they have 
any, and we go there and get the 
prices and see what is it worth. Then 
we inspect the lumber, and if it is 
good, we buy it at the best price we 
can. Sometimes we pick up good 
bargains. At one time we bought 
two or three thousand feet of Magno- 
lia at a bargain, and lumber for the 
other departments have been bought 
in the same way. 

Q. — We understand if you had a 
continuous line of employees, without 
taking any away from you, it could 
be made a paying proposition? 

A. — I believe it the best proposi- 
tion in Texas. There is now only one 
furniture factory in the State. 

Q. — Why is there only one furni- 
ture factory in Texas? 

A. — They are just beginning to 
come into Texas. In the last few 
years they have begun to come, and 
no doubt it will be a big industry. All 
furniture comes from the northern 
and eastern markets, ninety-five per 
cent of it, and our men make just 
as good furniture as they can in 
Grand Rapids. 

Q. — Can they compete with the 
other furniture men in the market ? 

A. — Absolutely. Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — In following out the line of in- 
quiry suggested by Senator Willacy, 
you stated if you had a certain num- 
ber of men, and could retain your 
men, you could make your department 
profitable. I assumed from that you 
wouli rather not change your force. 
Now do you think it advisable, as a 
matter of policy, for the Prison 
Commission to give you from time 
to time young men bright enough 
to learn the trade, and without di- 
minishing the probable success of 
the operation of your department, 
could you give them a practical 
knowledge of the business? 

A. — Yes, sir; they can learn a 
trade here that will equal any trade 
when they are released from prison. 

Q. — That without endangering the 
operation at a profit? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many employees are under 
you? 

A.— Only forty. 



Q. — And how do their terms of sen- 
I fences run? 

A. — Life to two years. 

Q. — Your experience covers quite a 
! number of years. Do you find long 
time men take more interest in the 
I work? 

A. — No, sir; I don't find that to be 
the case. I have had some life time 
men in here though who take a great 
interest. 

Q. — Can you take those long term 
men and train them to the point of 
technicality and develop the interest 
so they will assist you in creating a 
degree of efficiency in new men? 

A. — I think that altogether owing 
to the temperament and disposition 
of the men. 

Q. — You are in accordance with 
the policy of endeavoring to give 
these young short term men some 
practical knowledge? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You can do that and still 
make the department self-support- 
ing? 

A. — Yes, sir; it can be done as long 
as we have the men, and when their 
time expires we will have to put in 
new men. 

Q. — I see in the operations of the 
cabinet shop for 1912, we have custom 
sales, $7,233.31, and system sales, 
$9,110. Now your custom sales repre- 
sent articles made solely on orders 
received? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What particular line of articles 
offer the greatest profit? 

A. — The cedar chest line last year 
gave us the biggest profit. 

Q. — Your system sales? What is 
meant by that? 

A. — That was everything furnished 
I to the penitentiary, etc. 

Q. — Was anything made in the sys- 
I tern sales disposed of outside the pen- 
itentiary System? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Will you state how you arrive 
at a price to be placed on the articles 
in your system sales, or what you 
dispose of to the penitentiary system? 

A- -Well, everything we made for 
the System, we arrived at the cost 
the same as if we made the goods for 
the trade; the lumber material to be 
consumed, wear and tear, employees 
exrieirses, and everything of that kind. 

Q.— There was no forced market in 
order to take care of the System 
goods? 

A. — No, sir. 






160 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — In figuring your price on your 
custom sales, did you figure your per 
cent, of profit on the same basis as 
the System sales? 

A. — No, sir; on the custom sales 
we figure a profit, and on the System 
sales we furnish them at the cost of 
production, labor, etc., and add enough 
to make a small profit. 

Q. — What additional classes of the 
system products can you turn out that 
can be utilized by the other State in- 
stitutions? 

A. — School desks could be made, 
and chairs could be made. We have 
furnished the A. & M. College with 
chairs. We furnished the Normal 
here with chairs. We made the fur- 
niture that went in the Railroad 
Commissioners' office at Austin. 

Q. — In charging those institutions, 
do you know if you figured they were 
paying your department no more thai? 
they would have had to pay if they 
purchased elsewhere? 

A. — We figured the goods we sold 
them at a fair profit. We were never 
questioned whether this chair was 
cheaper or not. 

Q. — You don't know whether they 
could have bought them cheaper or 
not? 

A. — The question was never asked 
me. We would have no trouble in 
selling these. 

Q. — I see you have charged up here 
in the cabinet shop operations, con- 
vict labor, !t>7,784. That was at the 
rate of $1.10 per day? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And overtime, $102.80. Is 
that convict overtime? 

A. — There is no other overtime, 
except convict overtime. 

Q. — I see you inventoried your 
shop on the 31st of December at 
$62 5 4.15, and then on December 31, 
•1912, you inventoried it at $10,- 
53 6.42. Did you add any equip- 
ment during the year? 

A. — The first inventory was taken 
after the fire. 

Q. — Did you buy some equipment 
during the year 1912? 

A. — Yes, sir; we bought about 
$2500 or $3000 worth of it. 

Q. — It would be a difference of 
nearly $4000 in the two invento- 
ries? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How do you care for your 
stock on hand? 

A. — Our lumber is all under shel- 
ter outside the walls. Our common 



lumber, however, is all in the open 
air, which is best for it, and for 
our goods we have a warehouse out- 
side the walls, and as fast as we 
make the goods we pile them up in 
the warehouse. 

Q. — How long have you been with 
the penitentiary department? 

A. — I have been associated with 
the penitentiary system twenty or 
twenty-one years. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the op- 
erations of the furniture factory in 
1908? 

A. — I was here. 

Q. — Were you engaged in the fur- 
niture department at that time? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you tell us about the loss 
of $51,000 or more that year? 

A. — I can't tell you anything about 
it that year, unless it was a con- 
fusion of inventories. In fact, if I 
remember, during that year we had 
several financial agents, and sev- 
eral inventories taken by convicts. 

Q. — You think it impossible to 
sustain such a loss as that now? 

A. — There was never such a less 
sustained like that, anyway; that 
is just in figures. Now, the fact is 
last year Mr. Cabell has never both- 
ered our factory, at all. He asked 
me the other day if we could use 
more men. I told him we had all 
we wanted, and he did not put them 
in on me. This is the proper way to 
do this. 

Q. — You think you could not in- 
crease the number of employes? 

A. — No, sir; I could not do it now, 
as we have not enough floor space. 
The floor space is now taken up with 
machinery, etc., and the men would 
be charged against the shop, and we 
would not get the results. 

Q. — It seems the overhead ex- 
pense you have is rather heavy for 
the force you have in operation, and 
it will always be a question if you 
can make a profit. If you "had floor 
space you could handle probably 50 
per cent more men? 

A. — That is ft. If we had more 
floor space we could turn out twice 
as much work as we do, and could 
do it at a cost of from three to five 
thousand dollars cheaper; however, 
this is just an approximate on my 
part, but in doing that we could 
work seventy-five or one hundred 
men where we work only forty 
men now. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



161 



By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — It occurs to me your report 
is very gratifying, and it is very 
pleasant where the men are under 
good control and give every evidence 
they want to reform. Now, have 
you ever been able to keep up with 
your men after they left the walls? 

A. — Yes, sir; several I have. One 
got a position in Dallas; another got 
a position in a large furniture house 
in Dallas, and another got a posi- 
tion in a furniture factory in Fort 
Worth, and I got two positions in 
Brenham myself. They were still 
at their places when I left Dallas — 
there were three of them working 
there, and there are quite a num- 
ber at different times who have gone 
away and got good positions. 

Q. — Have any of those who were 
in your department come back? 

A. — Yes, sir; however, not very 
often. 

Q. — You have seen some of them 
back here, however? 

A. — Yes, sir; but not very often. 



SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913. AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Testimony of Dr. L. E. Bush, Prison 
Physician: 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — Are you the physician of the 
prison? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How long have you been the 
physician? 

A. — Since the 15th day of Feb- 
ruary, 1911. 

Q. — What has been the general ! 
health of the convicts within the i 
walls? 

A. — Very good, excepting chron- 
ics. 

Q. — Any venereal cases? 

A. — Yes, sir. Some venereal 
cases and some chronic cases. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
the convicts prior to the time you 
took charge? 

A. — Only in a general way. I 
have been coming in here at times 
for about twenty years. 

Q. — Where is your home? 

A. — Right here. 

Q. — Are you in position to tell the 
Committee whether or not the phys- 
ical condition of the convicts are as 
good now as in past years? 

A. — I don't understand. 



Q. — Are the average convicts now 
coming into the penitentiary as good 
physically as the convicts brought 
here twenty years ago? 

A. — Decidedly not, and I could go 
back six years and say that. How- 
ever, there was a matter of four 
years I knew nothing of them. 

Q. — The convicts received in the 
penitentiary now are not physically 
as good as those received six years 
ago? 

A. — Do you mean as to freedom of 
disease or physically? They are not 
as strong now so far as work is con- 
cerned. 

Q. — Are there any more diseased 
now than there were six years ago? 

A. — Yes, sir; a larger per cent, of 
them. 

Q. — Do you find more from the city 
than the country? 

A. — You find the largest per cent, 
of physically good men come from the 
rural districts. 

Q. — How do the convicts within 
the walls compare with those on the 
farms? 

A. — We have some few good men 
in here, but send the majority of 
good physical men to the farms. 

Q. — How do the farms on the 
Brazos River, for instance, effect the 
convicts? 

A. — I think it effects the white 
convicts more than the colored men. 

Q. — Do you find when they are 
returned to prison they have suff- 
ered with malaria? 

A. — Yes, sir; some of them, but not 
so much from the Brazos as from 
the Colorado. 

Q. — Would you say to the Commit- 
tee it is injurious to white convicts 
particularly to be sent out to these 
farms, taking it as a whole? 

A. — No, sir; I could not say that 
at the present time. 

Q. — They do not become inoculated 
with the malaria on the farms? 

A. — No, sir; the health of the 
prisoners is considered good. 

Q. — How many are there in the 
hospital today? 

A. — Twenty-nine — nurses, etc. 

Q. — How many are sick? 

A. — About sixteen. 

Q. — Sixteen not capable of work- 
ing? 

A. — There will be five of those 
go out tonight. 

Q. — Is that about the average num- 
ber in the hospital? 

A. — Our average number is from 
twelve to thirteen. 



162 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — What of the present number 
is chronic? 

A. — About seventy-five per cent, of 
them. Out of the total prison popu- 
lation, six hundred and something, 
last year from January 1, 1912, to 
January 1, 1913, we had seven deaths 
in the prison hospital. Of those sev- 
en there were two who had been in 
this prison only as much as twenty- 
five days. One of these deaths was 
due to methyl alcohol, and the other 
was due to chronic bronchitis — an old 
Mexican sent in from a farm during 
the year 1911. 

Q. — Did you say there was any 
danger from malaria on the farms? 

A. — I think the danger has very 
materially lessened in the last few 
years. 

Q. — What is the cause of that? 

A. — I think it is from cleaning up 
the soil and having good water. 

By Senator Warren: 

Q. — Are you familiar with the lo- 
cation of the State farms? 

A. — I have been on all of them 
with the exception of the Shaw 
farm. 

Q. — What would you say to the 
Committee as to the healthfulness 
of the location of those farms as to 
the convicts? 

A. — Under the circumstances, 
they are about as healthful as you 
could get. 

Q. — How is it there, compared 
with other portions of the State, or 
as compared with Huntsville? 

A. — I think Huntsville is more 
healthful. 

Q. — Well, say Central Texas. 

A. — In that portion of the coun- 
try you do not have as much typhoid 
and pneumonia as you do in the 
western part of the State. Since 
I have been here, February 15, 1911, 
we have had one case of typhoid 
fever. 

Q. — Have not you physicians dis- 
covered an absolute cure for typhoid? 

A. — I can't say. 

Q. — Would you say that these 
farms are as healthful as other 
places in the State? 

A. — I can't say. 

Q. — Have you studied the death 
rates in the various portions of the 
State? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is it higher down where the 
State farms are located than in Cen- 
tral Texas? 

A. — I think it is a little higher. 



Q. — Apparently what has been tHd 
change in the sickness? 

A. — Now, I don't know unless as 
I told you. A period of four years 
I know nothing about this — during 
the period of Campbell's administra- 
tion, but prior to Campbell's admin- 
istration I knew it was considered 
very unhealthful. 

Q. — Does excessive rainfall have 
anything to do with malaria in that 
country, and has there not been a 
great deficiency in the average rain- 
fall since Campbell's administration? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How do you handle consump- 
tives in the prison walls? 

A. — I get them out just as soon 
as I find them. 

Q. — Do you make an effort to seg- 
regate them? 

A. — Yes, sir. We had a building 
erected under the present adminis- 
tration 40 feet by 92 feet, divided 
into two sections — white and black 
— and each section had a separate 
dining room and each man has a 
separate bed. 

By W. O. Diffie: 

Q. — I believe you state you no- 
ticed the convicts that come to the 
prison the last two years are infe- 
rior to those of former years, and 
attribute that to the fact that they 
come from the city? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are the city men unhealthy? 

A. — No, sir. It is the lives they 
lead there. In large cities you get 
an inferior population, or what I 
term the "scum of the earth." It 
is the manner of living, the lives 
they lead, and the drug habit. 

Q. — Do you find any addicted to 
the opium and morphine habit? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What do you do for them? 

A. — We give them a treatment for 
that. There is no regular routine. 

Q. — Do you put them out on the 
farms? 

A. — No, sir; not until we cure 
them of the habit. They will get 
along and fatten up and get in good 
health, but will go back to it if they 
have not made up their minds. 

Q. — What effect has the ten hours 
of work in regard to health as com- 
pared with former years? 

A. — I don't see that it makei 
much difference. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — How many years have you 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



163 



practiced medicine in Southern 
Texas? 

A. — Since May 1, 1892. 

Q. — Long enough, you think, to 
qualify you to pass on the question 
of healthfulness in conditions here 
as applied to labor? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you in charge of the gen- 
eral sanitary conditions of the dif- 
ferent farms and camps, or the prison 
alone? 

A. — My work is confined to this 
place and to the Wynne and Goree 
farms. I visited all the camps in 
Southern Texas last July. 

Q. — When did you make your first 
visit? 

A. — Only the one time — last July. 

Q. — Will you state the condition 
of the different camps found by you 
on that visit? 

" A. — Well, all the camps were 
properly equipped in a sanitary way. 

Q. — Kept clean? 

A. — We found some defects. 

Q. — Can you indicate any camps 
you would direct the attention of the 
Committee to so they might inves- 
tigate them when they go to the 
farms? 

A. — On my return I made a re- 
port, which you will find on file here, 
which will give you a better* idea 
than I can give you at this time. 

Q. — You have answered Senator 
Willacy and Senator Warren that 
you thought the conditions of health 
in Southern Texas was good, and 
that the inmates of the penitentiary 
working on those farms were not 
suffering, and that the healthfulness 
was not prejudiced by reason of the 
location. Would you make any sug- 
gestions as to what conditions, 
stating conditions of healthful- 
ness the State should make for 
its convicts in the way of an 
ideal location for the peniten- 
tiary system? This has little re- 
lation to the investigation, but I 
want to know your idea as a physi- 
cian whether you think the State 
of Texas is doing justice to the con- 
victs by locating the penitentiary in 
a part of the State the farms are 
now located in, or would you locate 
in another? 

A. — I think you might possibly 
find some healthier location than is 
there. 

Q. — You have never practiced in 
any other part of the State? 



A. — No, sir; only with the excep- 
tion of Galveston. 

Q. — Are drugs smuggled in to the 
convicts? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.- — Have you been able to detect 
the methods? 

A. — In some we have, and some 
we have not. 

Q. — It is not very prevalent? 
A. — I do not think so much as 
several months ago. 

Q. — Do you make a very thorough 
physical examination of new con- 
victs on arrival? 

A. — About like you would for a life 
insurance examination with the ex- 
ception of testing urine, and where 
we have occasion to believe they have 
kidney trouble we examine them in 
that respect. 

Q. — How do ages compare with con- 
victs in previous years? 

A. — We are getting more young 
men. 

Q. — Say, taking the last twelve 
months, what would be the increase 
of the young men? 

A. — I couldn't say. I have not paid 
much attention to that. It may have 
been as much as ten or maybe not. 

Q. — If a man comes to the prison 
and you have reason to believe he 
is insane, and he is offered to the 
penitentiarv officials, what do vou 
do? 

A. — In the first place, I take him 
into the hospital and watch him, and 
if he is insane, put him in the 
asylum; that is, if he shows any vio- 
lence or interference with the rest 
of them. 

Q. — How many cases of this kind 
has occurred since you have been in 
office? 

A. — Some twenty-five or thirty 
cases in the last two years. The last 
few months we had twenty-three at 
one time. Some have gone out, and 
on some their time has expired. 

Q. — How many violently insane 
have you on hand at this time? 

A. — We have, 1 suppose, some eight 
or ten that are violent, and then 
others we couldn't turn loose. There 
are about twenty we have to keep 
locked up. 

Q. — What proportion are whites 
and what proportion negroes? 

A. — About equal. 

Q. — From your observation of the 
men in your care, would you care to 
make any statement regarding the 
moralitv; whether thev are worse 



164 



Report and Findings of 



than they were two years ago when 
you came here? 

A. — I don't know. I can't say if 
they are worse or better so far as 
morality is concerned. 

By Mr. Humphreys: 

Q. — The consumptives are kept out 
at the Wynne Farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are there any cripples, etc., 
kept out there? 

A. — Yes, sir. All chronic trouble; 
eye trouble, etc. They are kept in 
a building and worked by themselves; 
just west of those are the consump- 
tives, and just west of this is where 
we have the cripples such as broken- 
down men, and beyond that we have 
the old men's gallery — some ranging 
in years from sixty to ninety-nine 
years, I believe. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — You have visited the share 
farms, or lease farms, as well as the 
State farms? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you be able to make a 
statement regarding the State farms? 
Have all the men been equipped 
with sanitary conveniences conduc- 
ive to the health of the convicts? 

A. — I think so. 

Q. — What has been done on the 
lease farms? 

A. — The sanitary conditions on the 
lease farms are very poor. 

Q. — You mean to say, however, there 
are a number of bad conditions on 
the State farms? 

A. — No, sir; I think not. However, 
there were some things like ventila- 
tion that was defective, but I under- 
stand they have been corrected. 

Q. — Do you have deep wells on all 
the farms now? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 



SATURDAY, MAY 3, 1913, AT 
HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

Night Session. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — State your name to the stenog- 
rapher. 

A. — C. C. Johns. 

Q. — What is your position? 

A. — Superintendent of the wagon 
and blacksmith fatcory. 

Q. — How many men do you em- 
ploy? 

A. — About sixty men. 



Q. — Do you ever employ more than 
that? 

A. — We could not handle more 
than that. 

Q. — About how many wagons do 
you turn out. 

A. — About four wagons per day, 
but we take in repair work and that 
cuts down the wagon business. We 
do all the repairing for the town, 
and a great portion in the country. 

Q.— You think it best? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is there a profit in it when you 
take into consideration that it inter- 
feres with the regular wagon manu- 
facturing business ? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think so. We 
keep supplies for the wagons and it 
is necessary for us to repair the 
wagons. 

Q. — How long have you been in 
this business? 

A. — A little over 'six years. No, 
sir; not at first. I was in the furni- 
ture department with Mr. King. 

Q. — What could you make a wagon 
for? 

A. — Take a 2 1-2 inch bois d'arc 
wagon, it would cost us approximately 
$48. 

Q. — How do you figure that? 

A. — We figure the material, time, 
the iron we cut, and the iron is 
figured by the weight, and we figure 
the time to prepare the iron, and 
figure the time on assembling the 
wagons and painting, and add the 
overhead charge of $2.10 on the 
wagon. 

Q. — How do you arrive at that? 

A. — That is the system overhead 
charge which carries the whole busi- 
ness. My salary, etc. 

Q. — How do you charge for convict 
labor ? 

A. — 11 cents per hour, or $1.10 per 
day. 

Q. — What profit do you make on 
this wagon? 

A. — On this particular wagon we 
make about 29 per cent. The wagon 
costs about $48.59, and we sell it for 
$64.25. 

Q. — How does that compete with 
other wagons? 

A. — Three dollars cheaper than 
eastern wagons. 

Q. — How does it grade up? 

A. — People say it is the best wagon 
made in the State. 

Q. — They give good general satis- 
faction ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



165 



Q. — How about your market; can 
you sell any amount of them? 

A. — We have never been equipped 
so we could supply the demand. 

Q. — Could you tell us if you could 
sell a larger amount if you could 
make them? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — If you could increase the num- 
ber very materially, could you sell 
them on the market? 

A. — Well, the records show, and I 
have talked to those who were in the 
business before I came here, and they 
say they have never been able to 
supply the demand. I have turned 
down orders in the last two months 
amounting to about $1,500 for log 
wagons, for I could not supply the 
demand. We base our cost on the 
wagon on the Wood factory's prices, 
but we buy the material cheaper than 
from the Wood factory. 

Q. — You show a profit of about 29 
per cent? 

A. — Yes, sir; the wagon I used as 
a basis, about 29 per cent, but then 
the average all the way through, is 
from 24 per cent to 29 per cent, the 
larger wagon brings a little more 
profit. 

Q. — You are having to draw labor 
from the convict forces? 

A. — At the beginning of last year 
we had only three or four in that 
capacity. About 90 or 95 per cent ol 
the men we take in there make good. 
Q. — During the cane cutting sea- 
son, do they take men out of the 
wagon business as they do the 
others ? 

A. — No, sir; they did not do it last 
year, 1912. 

Q. — Does not Mr. Cabell think the 
wagon business could be increased? 
A. — Yes, sir. 
By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
Q. — Have you had any experience 
in manufacturing wagons outside of 
th j penitentiary ? 

A. — Only in a blacksmith and repair 
shop. 

Q. — You state you are selling your 
wagons at about $3 below what simi- 
lar wagons are being offered to the 
trade. Now, have you had any means 
of knowing the cost of wagons with 
which you compete? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Don't you think it probable 
from the fact they are able to secure 
large stocks and make a larger num- 
ber of wagons that they can turn 



them out much cheaper than you can 
here? 

A. — I would not be surprised if they 
could. 

Q. — Can you state how, in your 
judgment, the cost of the wagons you 
turn out would be materially re- 
duced ? 

A. — Yes, sir; I can. In the first 
place to secure the necessary material 
for wagon building you must buy at 
least twelve months or two years in 
advance. 

Q. — How much capital would that 
require, basing it on the force you 
now have? 

A. — In twelve months as advance, 
it would take $19,000 or $20,000. 

Q. — Would you require an increased 
investment in equipment? 

A. — I would need about $1,500 to 
$2000 in machinery. 

Q. — Making a total increase of in- 
vestment of just those two items or 
about $4000 over the other invest- 
ment. 

A. — We would have to have more 
floor space, and we lack four-fifths 
as much as we had in the old wagon 
factory, and I think $1500 would put 
the material on the ground and give 
us room for employment of additional 
men also. 

Q. — How many? 

A. — Twenty or twenty-five men 
could be worked without any addi- 
tional overhead expense. 

Q. — You have no difficulty in find- 
ing among the convicts plenty of 
available men? 

A. — I have had no trouble whatever 
in this line. 

Q. — Have you ever found it neces- 
sary to get out and make an effort 
to sell your products, or can you sell 
them as fast as you can make them ? 
What are the styles and sizes of 
wagons you are now making? 

A. — We make a 2 3-4 inch, 3 inch, 
2 1-2 inch, 3 1-4 inch and 3 1-2 inch. 
We make the 2 1-2 inch, 2 3-4 inch 
and 3 inch in either bois d'arc or oak 
rim. The larger wagons we make 
of oak only because we have not 
been able to secure bois d'arc rims 
large enough to take the wagon tire. 
Q. — Could you use other woods 
that were more easily attainable to 
equally as good advantage? 

A. — The only woods that would 
be fit to use in a wagon that we 
guarantee must be the black locust 
hub and second growth white oak 



166 



Report and Findings of 



spokes, or either oak or bois d'arc 
rims and hickory rims. 

Q. — The cost of that would be 
about the same? 

A. — The market prices are about 
the same, but we very often buy 
wood $10 to $15 cheaper than the 
market prices. 

Q. — How did your shop pay last 
year? Did you have a profit? 

A. — Taking the whole year 
through, we lost money according to 
books. 

Q. — Can you state the reason? 

A. — The wagon factory did not go 
into the manufacture of wagons un- 
til the 1st of July. I was appointed 
temporary manager on the 17th of 
June. We did not get full power 
to run both the wagon and black- 
smith shops until the 15th day of 
July, and the men were utilized in 
getting ready. After that time we 
made and sold $26,000 worth of 
wagons up to the first of the year, 
but taking the whole year through 
we lost money on account of the la- 
bor being utilized in getting ready. 
It should have been charged to the 
equipment account instead of the op- 
erating account. 

Q. — Now as a matter of business 
policy, if the Commission would pro- 
vide you with additional space to 
accommodate twenty-five more men, 
just what would you make; wagons 
only? 

A. — I would make road wagons, 
log wagons, and log carts, and would 
repair all wagons as we have been 
doing, as we put on a 50 per cent 
profit. 

Q. — What do you make for the 
Wells-Pargo Express Company? 

A. — We don't make anything for 
them, but repair their trucks that 
come in. They ship them in here 
for repairs. 

Q. — Could you make those trucks? 

A. — Yes, sir; but I don't think it 
is a good idea to cover too much 
ground. I would rather specialize 
in wagons as it would be better in 
my opinion. 

Mr. C. C. Johns is requested to 
file a statement with the Commit- 
tee in regard to enlargement of the 
wagon shop, which he states he 
thinks can be done for about $1500 
and work approximately 25 more 
men without extra overhead ex- 
pense. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — Do you think there is a limit 
to the enlargement? 



A. — I don't see any reason why a 
wagon factory here with a capacity 
of 1000 or 1500 wagons — I don't see 
any reason why we could not dispose 
of them. 

Mr. Ben E. Cabell interrogates Mr. 
C. C. Johns. 

Q. — How many men are you now 
working? 

A. — Sixty men. 

Q. — Have you got any guards 
there? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Any assistant? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You have worked convicts 
with guards? 

A. — Five years. 

Q. — Do you find the system with 
a foreman better? 

A. — I find convict labor is excel- 
lent without guards in the shop. 

Q. — How do the convicts work? 

A. — Just as good as I can possibly 
expect. 

Mr. Tittle interrogates Mr. C. C. 
Johns. 

Q. — Mr. Johns, I would like for 
you to state to the Committee your 
mode of purchasing supplies for the 
wagons so they will know about the 
price we pay in Missouri and Ar- 
kansas compared with the prices paid 
in Texas? 

A. — You know we base our cost 
on the prices at the factory. As an 
illustration, 2 1-2 inch axles cost us 
90 cents f. o. b. factory; we pay 
the freight. Now that 2 1-2 inch axle 
bought from the factory will make a 
larger wagon axle. The next axle 
cost us $1.10. We purchased in 
Texas 2000 axles that will make any 
size wagon we manufacture at 40 
cents a piece at Nacogdoches, Texas, 
and the freight is seven cents per 
hundred pounds. 

Q. — Mr. Johns, I would like for 
you to tell the Committee in regard 
to the purchase of lumber you made 
last fall. 

A. — The Commissioners authorized 
me to go out — I had to have some 
lumber, and I went over on the H. E. 
& W. T. and found just what I 
wanted. There was 255,000 feet of 
that lumber that we bought for 
$6.85 per thousand, and we paid 
freight at a 5 cent rate on it, and I 
had the hard wood man of the S. W. 
Lumber Co. put a price on it. He 
said the No. 2 was worth $14; the 
No. 1 common was worth $23, and 
the clears was worth $45 and the 
per cent of this class was about 30 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



167 



per cent and was about 10 per cent 
on the No. 2; the balance rated- as 
No. 1, and I figured we saved about 
$S000 in the purchase of that lum- 
ber. We bought it all for abouc 
$1500. 

Q. — Is it not often that you can 
get good figures? 

A. — Yes, sir; in East Texas they 
are all the time out picking up these 
bargains, and unless we go and hunt 
up the lumber and inspect it, you 
will get some thrown on you that 
you don't want. Still, the man who 
inspects and buys this lumber must 
be qualified to mark and grade the 
lumber when he buys the stuff. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — What per cent of the raw ma- 
terial could you buy in Texas? 

A. — We can buy it all except the 
spokes and iron. There is no spoke 
factory in Texas. The balance; the 
felloed, the axles, the oak, and the 
bolsters, we can buy in Texas, but 
for the iron we have got to get out 
of the State to do it. 



SATURDAY, MAY 3, AT HUNTS- 
VILLE, TEXAS. 

Xight Session. 

Testimony by Chas. Zaby. 

By Mr. John G. Willacy: 

Q. — State your name to the steno- 
grapher. 

A. — Chas. Zaby. 

Q. — You are working for the Pris- 
on Commission? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What position do you hold? 

A. — Manager of the shoe factory. 

Q. — How many employes do you 
have in there? 

A. — Twenty-one. 

Q. — How many convicts, I mean? 

A. — Twenty-one. 

Q. — Is that the capacity of the 
shop? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you able to dispose of 
the shoes you make? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Where do you dispose of 
them? 

A. — To the different farms over 
the country. 

Q. — Principally the penitentiary 
system, itself? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Q. — What class of labor do you 
use? 

A. — They are good strong men. I 
could not use any otherwise. They 
could not stand the work. 

Q. — Those that are weakly and 
sickly you could not use? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you figure out the cost of 
the shoes? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How do you arrive at that? 

A. — At the end of the month I 
take all the shoes and take an inven- 
tory of all the stuff I have at the 
first of the month, and from that I 
take what I have used; taking into 
consideration the convicts' labor, 
sales, guards, salary, etc. 

Q. — You use a guard in there? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever try operating 
without a guard? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You arrive at the cost by fig- 
uring the cost of material and your 
charge for labor, $1 per day. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By W. O. Diffie: 

Q. — What experience have you 
had? 

A. — Worked at the trade practical- 
ly all my life. ' 

Q. — Was this shoe (indicating) a 
store bought shoe? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know from the out- 
side what that shoe is composed of? 

A. — That shoe (indicating) is 
made mostly of flank or bellies. 

Q. — Now you mean the leather 
part of that shoe is flanky leather? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
substitutes being used besides leath- 
er used in shoes? 

A. — There is cloth in the shoes. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
Horn Fibre, Straw Board, etc., made 
of paper? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What do you think of the 
leather in this heel? 

A. — Only one solid in this. 

Q. — Now you take this shoe; that 
you call your discharge shoe, (indi- 
cating), that is made of what? 

A. — Box calf. 

Q. — All leather? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now is it not a fact that this 
shoe (indicating store* shoe) is much 
easier on the foot? 

A. — But my shoe will out-wear the 
store bought shoe two or three times. 



168 



Report and Findings of 



Q.— What is the selling or retail 
price of these shoes? 

A. — The prison made shoe retails 
at $3; the store bought shoe re- 
tails at about $2.25. 

Q. — And you state the pure leath- 
er shoe will last as long again at 
least, and costs one-half dollar more? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In enlarging your shoe fac- 
tory or continuing it as it is, you 
would recommend the pure leather 
shoe? 

A. — Yes, sir; I would for the sys- 
tem as I think it best to make an 
all-leather shoe. 

Q. — But if you wanted to swindle 
somebody you would make it like 
the factory shoes? 

A. — Yes sir; I would put the same 
in as the factories. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — How many kinds of shoes are 
you making? 

A. — Discharge shoes; ladies' dis- 
charge shoes; ladies' farm shoes; 
buckle brogans and lace brogans. 

Q. — Now state to the Committee, 
please, the cost of those shoes? 

A. — I make the discharge shoes 
for $1.67. 

Q. — Now that is the-discharge shoe 
for men? 

A. — Yes, sir. For the women, the 
same shoes and same price, and the 
brogan is $1.72, both buckle and 
lace. The cloth shoes for prisoners 
employed in the hospital and dining 
rooms, I make them for $1, and some 
for 60 cents. 

Q. — This is the negroes' farm 
shoe? (Indicating brogan.) 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.- — Do you furnish this to white 
men, too? 
.A. — I don't know. 

Q. — What kind of shoe do they wear 
around the factories and in the walls ? 

A. — This last shoe. (Indicates bro- 
gan.) 

Q. — The prices are the same? (In- 
dicates both kinds brogans.) 

A.— Yes, sir; $1.72. 

Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
the price of shoes to know whether or 
not you could buy them for the same 
money in the market. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you do it? 

A. — I can make them cheaper than 
you can buy them. 

Q. — What is your estimate that you 
could get for them in the market? 

A. — $2.60. That is for black elk. 



Q. — Where do you get your leather ? 

A. — I get it from Pfister Boger. 

Q. — Where are they? 

A. — Detroit, Michigan. 

Q. — You buy all supplies from 
them? 

A. — No, sir. I buy some at Buffalo, 
New York. 

Q. — Who are those people? 

A. — They are tanners. 

Q. — Are there no tanners in the 
State of Texas so shipment would be 
less? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many pairs do you turn 
out per dey? 

A. — One hundred pairs. 

Q. — How long have those men in 
your employ been in the shoe shop? 

A. — Mostly new men. Two or three 
months, but several old men who have 
been there two or three years. 

Q. — How long does it take to teach 
a young man just coming to the pen- 
itentiary to turn out the different 
parts of work in making a shoe? 

A. — I start him out when he first 
comes in the shop, and he gradually 
picks up. 

Q. — Do you change your men 
around ? 

A. — I change them around. 

Q. — How long does it take you to 
teach a man to put a shoe together? 

A. — It will take all the way from 
one to two years. I depends on what 
interest he takes in that department. 

Q. — Do you have to send back any 
of the men given you? 

A. — Some times. 

Q. — What is the principal reason? 

A. — They don't take any interest; 
don't like the trade. 

Q. — Some develop lack of skill? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many more shoes are you 
making than the penitentiary needs ? 

A. — I have disposed of every pair 
we have made. Sometimes we get 
behind on leather and that throws 
me off, and I can't keep up with it. 

Q. — Do you know how many pairs 
of these shoes it takes every year for 
the penitentiary system? 

A. — I think two pair of shoes per 
man is more than he can wear out. 

Q.— To your knowledge, they have 
not exceeded that in the penitentiary 
walls ? 

A. — They use less inside the peni- 
| tentiary walls than on the farms. 

Q. — Do they average two pair there? 
i A. — Sometime they do. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



169 



Q. — Now you have estimated shoe- 
ing the convicts in the penitentiary, 
what would you estimate it would 
cost to the Penitentiary System per 
annum? 

A. — I have never figured on that. 
I have only been here a short time. 

Q. — Would you estimate two pairs 
of shoes on the entire prison popula- 
tion would be a liberal estimate? 

A. — Yes, sir; one pair of shoes will 
last a man a year if they can get 
them repaired. 

Q. — So you say it costs the State 
of Texas $3 per inmate for shoeing? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
the clothing shop? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Can you use any more men? 
A. — No. sir; I have just as many as 
I can use. I have not enough floor 
space. 

Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
Cabell: 

Q. — Have you any idea how many 
pairs of shoes you had to buy in 1912 
besides what was made inside the 
walls? 

A. — We bought no shoes at all ex- 
cepting 1,700 pairs we had to buy 
immediately on assuming control, 
and we sent to Dallas and got Mr. 
Morton to straighten us out on shoes, 
but we have never bought any shoes 
except the discharge shoes except 
that one time. 

Q. — Was there no shoe shop here 
when you took charge? 
A. — None. 

Q. — What equipment? 
A. — Nothing; practically no equip- 
ment. 

Q. — Does your inventory show the 
valuation of the shop at the time of 
January 20, 1911, and then does it 
show the property added? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you ever seen the class of 
shoes bought by the State Purchasing 
Agent for the other State Institu- 
tions? 

A. — No, sir; I have not. 
Q. — And you say, Mr. Cabell, the 
1,700 pairs you bought in 1911 is all 
the shoes the Prison Commission had 
bought in the last two years? 

A. — Yes; discharge shoes. We 
bought on an average of 85 pairs per 
month for fifteen months. 
' Q. — How long have you ceased buy- 
ing discharge shoes? 

A. — Eight or ten months. 



Q. — Have you bought any shoes in 
the last ten months? 
A. — I think not. 

Q. — Does the present output of 
shoes at Huntsville shop provide all 
the shoes required by the Peniten- 
tiary System? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Will it prove more? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is an average of two pairs of 
shoes to the inmate of the peniten- 
tiary sufficient? 

A. — I think we are getting to the 
point where it will be. We send out 
to each camp a card by which every 
pair of shoes is charged. If the stew- 
ard attends to his business, there is 
no reason why it should not be done. 
When a prisoner comes in for shoes, 
they are looked over and seen if he 
had destroyed his old ones, and if he 
shows he has worn them right, the 
shoe is then repaired. We have es- 
tablished a cobbler's shop on one of 
the farms — something we have never 
done before. We have had an awful 
hard t'me to get the steward to take 
care of it. I don't think it a question 
but what two pairs of shoes a year 
will cover it, but as a general average 
the two pairs will cover it. 

Q. — Now, Mr. Cabell, a question 
regarding the tailor shop. Prom your 
knowledge of the clothing furnished 
the convicts, would you be able to 
state the average cost per man for 
clothing for convicts? 

A. — I would not like to do this off 
hand. The convicts would naturally 
destroy them in a way, and then lay 
them down anywhere. We have a rul- 
ing that they should be laid in a pile, 
and they state the guards would not 
let them go back for them, and during 
the night someone would steal them. 
The clothing is now being checked 
closer than ever. We have established 
a system by which a man sends in 
the size he wants. When they make 
his order, they look over and see if 
it is the same number when he drew 
these clothes. By the card system 
and check system we are trying very 
hard to systemize it. There comes in 
an order for a certain line of shoes. 
We first get him to tell us what kind 
of shoes these men's previous orders 
calls for. and he tells us. Now, we 
have adopted another system; we had 
j a heavy coat last year for the winter. 
We have taken up all the coats and 
I laundried them and put them away: 
then tli< i camp states how much they 



170 



Eeport and Findings op 



have sent in and laundried and packed 
away. 

Q. — How many suits do you esti- 
estimate it takes for the prisoner? 

A. — It takes two coats. I think it 
better to calculate on three pair of 
pants. 

Q. — Do you know about what one 
of those coats costs you? 

A. — Well, yes, I can tell you in a 
very few minutes. There are state- 
ments here to the effect it would cost 
the State about $16 to maintain each 
convict. 

Q. — This item of shoeing and cloth- 
ing is included? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you made sufficient allow- 
ances? 

A. — I have no doubt of it, and I 
think it could be reduced very ma- 
terially. 

Q. — To what extent are you making 
mattresses? 

A. — Only for the System. 

Q. — How many per day? 

A. — I can't give you that. It is 
according to how many we need. 

Q. — When did you begin the manu- 
facture of mattresses? 

A. — At the very first of the admin- 
istration. 

Q. — In what inventories are the 
mattresses? 

A. — In the tailor shop. 

Q. — Do you know what mattresses 
are costing you? 

A. — I can't tell you. 

Mr. Cabell is requested by the Com- 
mittee to get the cost of everything 
in the shoe shop and the tailor shop. 



TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK, 
TEXAS. 

Testimony of J. A. Palmer. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — What position do you hold 
with the penitentiary system? 

A. — Warden at Rusk. 

Q. — How many convicts have you 
now?" 

A. — The count at the present time 
is 252. 

Q. — How many employes have you 
here? 

About thirty; sometimes about 
thirty-three employes. 

Q. — How many of these are 
guards? 

A. — Eight altogether. 



Q. — How many residences have 
we here owned by the State? 
A. — Ten residences. 
Q. — How are they occupied? 
A.— One by the chaplain; one by 
the master mechanic; one by Mr. 
Smith, superintendent of the furni- 
ture factory; one by Mr. Walton, 
bookkeeper; one by Mr. Grammar, 
the steward; one by Mr. Newsom, 
the farm man; and one by Rev. Tin- 
ney, chaplain; one by Mr. Stubble- 
field, superintendent of the railroad; 
and one by Mr. Dupree, conductor of 
the State Railroad, and there are 
two vacant. 

Q. — Do any of these pay rent? 
A. — Mr. Walton, the bookkeeper, 
and Mr. Dupree pay rent. 

Q.- — What were the cost of repairs, 
put on these houses? 

A. — That was done before I came. 
Q. — Any new residences built.? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How are your convicts dis- 
tributed? 

A. — We have them distributed at 
the box factory, the farms and doing 
various things about the prison. 

Q. — You have a number of then* 
clearing up the debris, wreckage, 
etc.? 

A. — Yes, sir; we have a certain 
number of men who are not fit to 
work, and we keep them in the 
yards. For instance, it is known a 
man has a permanent trouble, and 
we put him on that kind of light 
work. 

Q. — You have no other work for 
them? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — And you use them in clearing 
up the debris? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And that occupies quite a 
number of convicts? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How much of this convict la- 
bor do you charge to the railroad 
account? 

A. — We supply one man who 
takes charge of the engine in the 
afternoon, and we do two hours of 
coaling each day, unless we have to 
do extra work. 

Q. — Do you think the amount 
charged to the railraod is a reason- 
able amount? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — About how many men do you 
have on the farm? 

A. — We work regularly about six- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



171 



teen men. We are working today 
probably twenty-five or thirty. 

Q. — How many guards have you 
with them? 

A. — Two. 

Q. — And you have dogs, have you 
not? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. — How much land have you out 
there? 

A. — Approximately 4 5 acres. 

Q. — How far do they have to go 
from Rusk to the farm? 

A. — An average of two miles. 

Q. — Then going to and from the 
farms, that is quite a good deal? 

A. — Some walk two and a half 
miles. 

Q. — What factories have you here? 

A. — We have the box factory and 
the foundry. At the present time 
we are not operating the foundry 
on account of the lack of coke. We 
have a machine shcp employing ten 
or eleven men, repairing locomotives 
and cleaning machinery, and we 
have a tin shop and blacksmith. 

Q. — Do you run the power plant 
all the time? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — At night you supply light for 
the city of Rusk? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — -What price do you charge 
them? 

A. — $15 per month. 

Q. — Have you ever figured out the 
cost on that? 

A. — The contract was made when 
I was secretary to the Commission. 

Q. — Have you any idea what the 
amount is per kilowatt? 

A. — Mr. Xash figures that about 
5 cents. 

Q. — Have you any register test? 

A. — They have a meter. 

Q. — Now, you run the plant in 
the daytime. What is the reason 
of that? 

A. — To supply the box factory 
with power. 

Q. — You don't supply the city in 
the davtime with light 

A. — I believe the contract says the 
first of June we are to supply the 
city with light, or a day current. 

Q. — What additional expense will 
that incur? 

A. — No additional employes, and 
I will say in that connection the city 
owns the small machine that sup- 
plies the lights. We furnish the 
men and the fuel to keep up the ma- 
chinery. We also supply the cur- 



rent to the men who leased the smel- 
ter. We are under contract to do 
that. 

Q. — Are you supplying them now? 

A. — We are supplying them with 
a small amount; I suppose about 
twenty lights per day. 

Q. — Are they paying for that? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How do you estimate fkat 
cost? 

A. — Mr. Xash estimates it with- 
out a meter. 

Q. — Is that a very large plant? 

A. — Yes, sir; it generates about 
3 50 kilowatts. 

Q. — Do you think the farm out 
here can be operated profitably? 

A. — I don't know that they can 
as a farming proposition. I don't 
think they ever did, and I don't hes- 
itate to say thrse men ought to make 
wages on that farm. This is a good 
propositios. f <r hogs a nd cattle, but 
I don't thirA it can be operated 
profitably as a cotton and corn prop- 
osition. 

Q. — Hew long has that farm been 
in operation? 

A. — Long before I came here. I 
put in about seventy-five acres of 
new land this year. 

Q. — What do you think about the 
box factory? Do you think it a 
profitable industry 

A. — I could not answer the ques- 
tion for the reason I am not thor- 
oughly familiar with it and the de- 
tails for the cost of material. 

Q. — Do you think it has been run- 
ning long enough to get a bearing 
on it? 

A. — Xo. sir: I think not. 

Q. — Does the State furnish furni- 
ture to the residences here? 

A. — I don't think so since I have 
been here. However, there is fur- 
niture that belongs with the resi- 
dences. Just how long it has been 
here, I don't know. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
terms of the contract of the lease 
of the iron works? 

A. — Xo, sir; I have never read the 
contract, but I am familiar with it 
in an advisory way. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
iron and ore contracts? 

A. — Xo. sir. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
the railroad we have to the ore-beds 
— thp number of miles? 

A. — About two and a quarter 
miles. 



172 



Eeport and Findings of 



Q. — About what will it cost to 
put the road in condition to handle 
the contracts? 

A. — The road was in very poor 
condition and was without ties. I 
needed some wood and employment 
for some men, and I made a contract 
with men who owned the timber ad- 
jacent to our farm to take off some 
wood, and in doing that I got from 
1200 to 1400 ties to put the road in 
good shape. I will need six or 
seven hundred ties yet, but I never 
put a cost on those ties. 

Q. — Do you consider them good 
ties? 

A. — I think they will hold for 
eighteen months or two years. They 
are not standard. They are just 
bottom land ties. 

Q. — How are you fixed for cars 
to haul that ore? 

A. — The equipment will have to 
be repaired and put in condition. 

Q. — What kind of an engine have 
you to haul this ore? 

A. — The prison has none, but we 
can get the State engine to come out 
every day one trip and push emp- 
ties in and bring back the loaded 
cars. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
mining ore? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
the cost of taking the overhead cov- 
ering off the ore? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
the cost to handle it? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you talked with anyone 
familiar with the proposition as to 
how many men it will take to handle 
fifty tons of ore per day? 

A. — Yes, sir; I can load with 
proper arrangements — I can take 
care of that contract with fifteen to 
eighteen men per day, that is where 
it is already mined. 

Q. — What will it cost to mine fifty 
tons of ore? 

A. — I am not familiar enough with 
that to say. 

Q. — Will there be some additional 
cost in handling the trams to bring 
the ore in? 

A. — That information will have to 
be obtained from the railroad. 

Q. — What is the consideration the 
State receives for the leases? 

A. — The State is to receive $5000 
a year for the lease of the property, 
and other considerations in the way 



of putting it into operation, and they 
are to take fifty tons of ore per day 
from the State at $1 per ton, or 50 
cents per ton if delivered to them at 
the ore fields. 

Q. — What other things is the State 
to do in addition to handling the ore ? 

A. — The State has a contract to 
sell them the electricity to operate the 
plant. 

By Mr. Ben E. Cabell: 

Q. — Is it at the State's option to 
deliver the fifty tons of ore per day? 

A. — Yes, sir; the State does not 
either have to sell it or deliver it to 
them if they do not want to. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — In the selection of your em- 
ployes, is there any political favorit- 
ism shown, or do you select the ones 
that suit you? 

A. — None whatever. 

Q. — When the foundry is running 
here, have you any idea of the amount 
of pig iron the State consumes? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What industry do you think 
could be operated here at a profit? 
What industry do you think it ad- 
visable at all to operate at Rusk to 
the best interest of the State? 

A. — In my mind, the box factory 
and the foundry could be operated at 
a profit. The box factory could be if 
it was not forced to put its products 
on the market unless it got the mar- 
ket price. The great trouble with an 
enterprise of that kind, we started 
without any material on . hand. We 
had green stuff, and we have been 
buying and trying to do some busi : 
ness to keep going on. 

Q. — Is there any agreement as to 
what the State pays for its pig iron ? 

A. — I presume they would buy from 
them as it is bought on the market. 

Q. — You suggested that the box 
factory should hold for the market 
and only sell as the market demands ? 

A. — We have not enough material 
to make pineapples crates and 
have them ready for the market next 
year. We ought to be able to get 
the material for making the boxes, 
and when the market comes on go to 
work and shove them out to them. 
I am satisfied this box factory could 
sell every bit of stuff it could manu- 
facture in the State of Texas. 

Q. — At a better price than we are 
getting now? 

A. — I won't say that. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



Q. — What about the machine shops. 
Do you think that a profitable en- 
gagement here? 

A. — No, sir; but I think we should 
maintain a small machine shop be- 
cause we have some work of our own 
going on all the time, but not as a 
commercial proposition. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
furniture manufacturing business? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you had any experience? 

A. — Only through observation. 

Q. — Was any of the stock of the 
furniture factory burned up ? 

A. — I was not here then. When I 
came here during this last burning 
there was some furniture stored in 
the chapel building which burned. 

Q. — In a general way you think the 
box factory and the foundry could be 
made a success? 

A. — Yes, sir. It would depend on 
the success of the pipe foundry. 

Q. — But if that is a success there 
and they find a market for the pipe, 
they will also "find a market for the 
specialties ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
the foundry and pipe department, in 
your judgment, to say whether or not 
a foundry could be operated at a 
profit ? 

A. — I am convinced we have men 
who can produce that product. 

Q. — You think it can be done by 
taking labor out of the walls un- 
trained ? 

A.— I do. 

Q. — Can you state to the Commit- 
tee the terms of the contract between 
the State and the parties who leased 
the smelter plant? 

A. — Yes, sir; in substance, the con- 
tract with the prison system and 
those leasing the furnance and pipe 
foundry is that they will have to pay 
the sum of $5000 per year, making it 
in three different payments, $1669 
each for four months. 

Q.— When did that begin ? 

A. — The contract was supposed to 
begin about January first; about that 
date; anyway about the first of May 
was about the first payment to be 
made. Beginning on the first of 
January and the first payment coming 
due the first of May; the next four 
months hence, and so on. They have 
paid the first payment and the second 
payment and the contract was to 
begin on the first of October, and 
have it ready to begin receiving ore 



on the first of October, unless they 
could show reason it was no fault of 
theirs, then they would have until 
the first of December to do this, and 
then they would forfeit to the State 
the amount of money they paid in. 
They were to receive the plant as it 
was and all repairs necessary to be 
made bv them without cost to the 
State, and put it in first class operat- 
ing order, and when they left they 
would leave the plant in as good shape 
as they received it, in addition to the 
other improvements. The State has 
the right to furnish them with as 
much as fifty tons of ore ■ per day, 
counting it three hundred days in the 
year, at $1 delivered to them at the 
furnace, or 75 cents at the mines. 

Q. — How is it delivered to them at 
the mines? 

A. — They are to load the iron ore 
they receive at the mines themselves. 
The State is to get it out and they 
are to do the rest, or we can let them 
have ore at five cents per ton in the 
ground, unmined. The State has a 
right to do this, but it is not com- 
pelled to do it; but they must receive 
from the State fifty tons of ore or 
fifty tons per day from the mines, 
and the option stated they should put 
this plant in operation. Now, they 
are not to manufacture anything but 
pipe; that is, they are not to make 
any fixtures, etc. 

Q. — What is the objection to them 
manufacturing the specialties? 

A. — Our specialty department is 
here in the walls. Our foundry, etc., 
is here in the walls and we would 
not want them to have anything to 
do with anything in the walls. While 
it is not made a part of the contract 
that they are compelled to patronize 
our machine works it is stipulated in 
the contract all work shall be done 
by us and at a reasonable price. 

Q. — We will get a copy of that con- 
tract? 

A. — Yes, sir. It was to dem- 
onstrate if this was practicable 
and if the iron ore could be 
manufactured here, and I think 
it is the best proposition ever 
credited to the Prison Commission. 
I think it will amount to more to the 
people here after it is developed, and 
it will settle the question of who is 
right or wrong in this matter, which 
has been going on for years. Now 
another thing they are to pay us 
so much per killowatt for electricity. 
I think five or six cents. 



174 



Keport and Findings of 



Q. — Have you ever figured out how 
much it would cost us to manufac- 
ture the juice? 

A. — We had our mechanic and assis- 
tants make an investigation, and we 
feel we will make a very nice profit, 
and this is another reason we thought 
it inducive to make this contract. We 
calculate we can make it for three 
cents. 

Q. — What do you think of the con- 
tract with the city of Rusk for their 
electricity, and how far do you have 
to transmit it? 

A. — Not over thirty feet. They 
have a generator and motor there 
and they* only run this at night. 

Q. — You have a very heavy power 
plant out there, and of course, it is 
not economical to run a heavy plant 
where a small plant could be run. Do 
you think it requires a heavy plant 
out there? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think it does. 

Q. — It has never been loaded up to 
more than fifty per cent, of its capa- 
city? 

A. — That is my understanding. 
Now, Mr. Lewis, the master mechanic, 
who has been in charge for a number 
of years, could give you accurate in- 
formation, and so could Mr. Nash. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Was this contract made before 
the last fire? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Then the advantage sought to 
be retained to the Rusk penitentiary 
in the provision for the use of your 
plant over here, it would be useless 
to you? 

A. — Yes, sir; so far as the machine 
shops are concerned, but I understand 
it is absolutely necessary in taking 
care of the work that will be brought 
by that foundry over there. 

Q. — What will that equipment cost? 

A. — I would say between $15,000 
and $25,000. 

Q. — To prepare the buildings and 
euqip it? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q— What would do that? 

A. — I would think the machine shop 
would cost $20,000. It should be a 
two-story building, heavy walls, i I 
should say it would cost between 
$35,000 and $50,000 to equip a machine 
shop up to date; that is, a modern 
building, practically fireproof. 

Q. — Is it not contemplated by the 
Prison Commission to make that in- 
vestment? 

A. — No, sir; nor any other invest- 
ment at either of the penitentiaries, 



we have got down to our very limit, 
and we have got to get advice and 
judgment of this Committee so as to 
see our way out in the way of perma- 
nent improvements. I know this, 
whatever is done, I am in favor of its 
being done right. These buildings 
here were never located right in refer- 
ence to the convicts, and I think a 
great deal of attention should be 
given to the location of the next 
buildings. 

Q. — Do you think five cents per ton 
for the ore in the ground is on an 
equitable basis with the price mined 
and the price delivered? 

A. — I would hardly think so. It 
seems like five cents per ton is a 
very small amount. 

Q. — Have you ever had any ex- 
pert estimate the amount of ore in 
the ground? 

A. — I think on that line I have a 
report of Mr. Guin in reference to 
that. They calculate they have 
enough ore owned by the State to 
run it fifty years or more. 

Q. — Do you think the ore in the bed 
at five cents per ton is a very small 
amount for it, and that you would 
be giving the ore away, and that you 
would be forced upon a doubtful prop- 
osition? 

A. — Yes, sir; but on that contract 
we are not forced upon this proposi- 
tion, as we don't have to sell it or 
mine it. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — If we should act on the terms 
of the contract and deliver the ore 
to the smelter at $1 per ton, what do 
you think it will cost, the State using 
its own labor, to mine it and deliver 
it to the smelter? 

A. — You gentlemen saw the facili- 
ties for geting it down. We feel the 
cost would not be very great, 
and then the very fact we had 
the 18,000 tons already mined 
that we wanted to dispose of 
and we could not get over 
$1 per ton for it. The equipment 
necessary to bring that down will be 
from $1,200 to $1,500, and possibly 
not so much. We have the engine 
and rails and railroad there already, 
but it requires some improvements, 
and the force we have got to have is 
just enough men to load fifty tons per 
day. 

Q. — As to the matter of keeping the 
convicts properly employed, of course, 
we have to keep in consideration the 
incidental expenses, as well as the 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



175 



direct cost of the convicts. There are 
other things entering into this be- 
sides the blasting and taking out of 
the ore, and one is the cost for taking 
off the earth over the ore. 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Taking the average ore pockets, 
what would be the cost of taking off 
the overhead earth and material? 

A. — There are two men who will 
be before you this evening. One says 
it can be done, or got out and brought 
to the furnace and a reasonable profit 
can be made at $1 per ton. The other 
thinks it will be close work to do it. 
One worked there for several years; 
the other is the master mechanic, and 
he is a capable man. 

Q. — I understand they thought 
something of running the engine em- 
ployed on the State Railroad to 
haul in the ore cars. I have looked 
over the old road with its very light 
rigging, and I am in my own mind 
convinced this can not be done, 
and you will have to deliver it 
through a more intelligent system. I 
am advised by the people here you 
can do this, but it is a very light steel 
rail, and you are operating a 24-inch 
cylinder engine. Have you a smaller 
engine at Huntsville you could op- 
erate here? 

A. — Yes, sir; but we thought the 
State engine could go up and 
bring the cars down each day 
without additional expense. Now in 
regard to the ore, will say the aver- 
age was made by two men, after the 
ore was stripped, was ten tons per 
day. Now some of them got out four- 
teen tons per day, but that depended 
on who was the boss. That con- 
sisted of blasting and loading it out. 
Those details can be given you by Mr. 
Lewis and Mr. Grammer. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 

Q. — Did you ever take an invento- 
ry of the furnace and equipment? 

A. — Yes, sir; we did last year. We 
appointed our master mechanic to go 
over it and make an inventory of 
everything pertaining to this and 
what we should take away, and we 
have a copy of it here and one at 
Huntsville. 

Q. — What is the provision of the 
contract in reference to returinig this 
property to the State in as good con- 
dition as received? 

A. — It is to be returned to the State 
in as good condition as received, and 
the State is to receive the benefits 
of all the improvements. 



Q. — What is your estimate of the 
amount of ore the State owns? 

A. — It has always been estimated at 
from four thousand to six thousand 
tons to the acre. 

Q. — What is the acreage of the 
State's ore lands? 

A. — The State owns in fee simple 
about 1,200 acres of ore' land. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — Inasmuch as this ore is found 
in pockets, what percentage of that 
acreage could be classed as good ore 
land? 

A. — My information is all this land 
has practically the same amount of 
iron ore in it, but some of it has 
to have more stripping done on it, 
and it has been stripped where it 
was the least trouble. 

Q. — Is there enough ore there to 
last this penitentiary for a great 
number of years right in a body? 

A. — I don't think there is any 
question about the quantity of iron 
there. 

Q. — What is your estimate per acre 
for the iron ore? 

A. — Four to six thousand tons of 
iron. Mr. Lewis says it will average 
four to six thousand tons per acre. 

Q. — Now this price of five cents 
per ton. Is that in the ground? 

A. — Yes, sir.- 

Q. — And does not apply to that 
ore that has been mined and piled? 

A.— They have agreed to take that 
at $1 delivered. 

Q.— Now, if they did not want to 
take the ore there and — 

A. — They went and agreed that 
this ore already mined out was ac- 
ceptable. 

Q. — You have a lot already mined? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And some stripped that is not 
mined? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now if they take all on the 
ground already mined and receive it 
there, what do they pay for it? 

A. — They get it at seventy-five 
cents. 

Q. — We are to understand thsy 
can not buy this at five cents? 

A. — Yes, sir. It takes nearly thirty 
cents per cubic yard to strip the 
earth. 

Q. — Can you do it at twenty cents? 

A. — If we can I am satisfied we 
can make money on this proposition. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — How long have you been here? 

A. — Since about September. 



176 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Are you familiar with the in- 
ventory of the Rusk penitentiary as 
it appears in the auditor's report 
made by Mr. Huey for 1912? 

A. — In some instances I am. 

Q. — How long were you with the 
Commission before coming here? 

A. — I was Secretary to the Com- 
mission ever since its organization. 

Q. — I see from the inventory made 
December 31, 1911, it gives the Rusk 
property account at $482,750.10, and 
that in 1912 there were additions of 
$11,120.75. What were those ad- 
ditions? 

A. — I will state this: The inven- 
tory of 1911 was evidently very 
carelessly made, and when it was up 
to me to take the inventory Janu- 
ary, 1912, I gave it my personal at- 
tention, and had every superintend- 
ent of each department to make an 
inventory of the entire stock, and to 
just give you an idea there was a 
piece of property that cost the State 
$8000 or $10,000 I put on the in- 
ventory myself which has never ap- 
peared before. It was more the re- 
adjustment of the old inventory than 
anything else, and all the improve- 
ments I wanted to have on the in- 
ventory. 

Q. — Will you say, according to 
your best judgment the inventory of 
1912 for $493,875.85 represents the 
reasonable value now? 

A. — No, sir; I would not. I ac- 
cepted them as I found them in 1911. 
I lowered some of the buildings and 
made some higher. Now the walls 
of this building and cells, etc., was 
invoiced at certain figures in 1911, 
and I accepted those figures and 
passed them in at that. 

Q. — According to this inventory, 
the State of Texas is supposed to 
have a half million dollars at Rusk. 
Is it worth that? 

A. — It is not now. We have had 
some considerable loss you know, and 
whether it was ever worth it, I don't 
know. 

Q. — The last loss was estimated 
to be $130,000? 

A.— Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — Then, according to your 
judgment this property inventory 
here should be reduced anywhere 
from $130,000 to $150,000? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now in estimating the loss of 
$130,000, was anything allowed for 
salvage from loss by fire? 

A. — I don't know. There was very 
little salvage. 



Q. — Who made the estimate of the 
loss? 

A. — Mr. Moore, himself. (Mr. 
Moore is the auditor.) 

Q. — Have you made any independ- 
ent calculations as to the amount of 
scrap iron and other salvage? 

A.- — No, sir; we have not got to 
it. I have' made none at all as we 
can't tell until it is sold or offered 
for sale. 

Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
Moore: 

Q. — How did you arrive at your 
loss, Mr. Moore? I mean the fire 
of March 1, 1913, of $130,000? 

A. — I took the inventory on which 
the present administration received 
it from the former administration 
and added to it such additions and 
repairs as I was able to locate by 
both book entries and all other 
sources of information, and in some 
cases I had to make an estimate of 
the work done, and I found it to be 
one hundred and thirty-two thou- 
sand dollars and something, and I 
located the amounts necessary to 
cover the value of the property de- 
stroyed by fire, and located the book 
value $122,299.30. That takes into 
account the salvage account of $6000 
to remove the debris of the fire, and 
places it in position to reinvest it 
with the other industries. The sal- 
vage account is intended to be event- 
ually closed in the profit and loss 
account. If my estimate is too low 
it will add to the fire loss, and if it 
is too high it will take from it, and 
is to be charged to the profit and 
loss account as these items are lo- 
cated. 

Mr. Tillotson resumes interroga- 
tion cf Mr. Palmer: 

Q. — Do you know the location of 
the lines of the lands owned by the 
State at Rusk? 

A. — There is 1100 acres adjacent 
to the state prison; the other lies 
outside of town. 

Q. — Outside of the 1100 acres, the 
remainder of the land is in small 
tracts? 

A. — No, sir; it lies in bodies along 
the railroad. 

Q. — Can you say whether or not 
that land is suitable for agricultural 
purposes? 

A. — As a farming proposition as a 
whole, I think not. 

Q. — Would you be willing to esti- 
mate the amount of land that could 
be cultivated in the entire acreage? 

A. — No, sir. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



177 



Q. — You would not, in your judg- 
ment, state it is a good proposition 
for cultivation? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you learned since com- 
ing here what its approximate value 
is? 

A. — I have learned the usual val- 
uation of it is $28,000. 

Q. — Could it be sold for more than 
that? 

A. — I presume it would bring more 
than that including this property 
here. 

Q. — Since you came here, Mr. Pal- 
mer, has there been any punnshment 
of convicts contrary to the present 
law which has come to your notice? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What are the methods of pun- 
ishment? 

A. — We have dark cells, solitary 
confinement and the chains. I have 
never coincided with the view the 
dark cell was a good proposition, 
and have never used the dark cell 
with the exception of a very few 
hours, and I have never used the 
chains except once. I used the chains 
after the strap, and it was very of- 
fensive to the investigating commit- 
tee that I kept a man in solitary con- 
finement. When I put a man in there, 
he has water, corn bread and plenty 
of meat, and it is all they get while 
in there. I had one man in there 
eight or ten days. 

Q. — You are familiar with the pro- 
visions of the law regarding pun- 
ishment? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you consider the present 
law authorizes you to use the chain 
method of punishment? 

A. — Yes, sir; I believe it does. That 
is my opinion, for the reason the 
strap was abolished, and I believe the 
Commission has the right to say the 
mode of punishment. 

Q. — Will you illustrate the meth- 
od of how you use the chains? 

A. — Yes, sir; I can .do that, but I 
don't use the chains at all. 

Q. — As I understand it, you employ 
the chain method because you be- 
lieve the prison commission has un- 
der the law the right or authority 
to prescribe the mode of punish- 
ment. That being true, I would like 
to have the modes of punishment pre- 
scribed by the Commission described? 

A. — Well, they have prescribed we 
can punish a man by barring him 
from certain privileges; we can con- 
fine a man in the dark cell from 24 



to 3 6 hours, I don't know which, and 
we can punish a man by chaining him 
to the cell door by his wrists. I do 
not know that this mode of punish- 
ment was used generally. 

Q. — Do you chain by the wrist? 

A. — Yes, sir; to the cell door. The 
object is if a man will not work he 
is chained up, and he is made to stand 
up. 

Q. — Are they chained so they can 
not stand fiat-footed? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many orders since you 
have been here have you issued for 
chaining? 

A. — Quite a number of them. I 
got a lot of men here from Sugar 
Land who had raided that country, 
and when they were received at this 
prison they proceeded to do the same 
thing, and I proceeded to punish 
them. I will describe, that instead 
of using chains, I just got me a bar 
of wood 2x4 inches, 24 inches long, 
and instead of suspending a man by 
a chain I secured a leather strap 
about 3-4 of an inch wide and strap- 
ped his wrists to the ends of the bar 
of wood and pulled it up, and no man 
was ever to remain over two hours. 

Mr. Cabell states: The bar of 
wood was fixed in such a manner the 
prisoner could not unstrap it. 

Mr. Palmer continues statement: 

I want you to understand I never 
use the chains at all, or chained them 
up with their arms stretched up. I 
have never done that. If a man com- 
mits a minor offense and I find they 
are entitled to lose time by it, I sen- 
tence them to five hours' in the dark 
cell for having a scrap. If I find a 
boy at 3 o'clock smoking I put him 
in the dark cell and keep him there 
until 6 o'clock. The last time I had 
men in the dark cell they cost the 
State about $600. They cut up a lot 
of Yale locks and cut up the door. 
The transfer man who brought them 
from Huntsville put them in the Pal- 
estine jail, and that night they com- 
pletely riddled it and cut it all to 
pieces. 

Q. — What did they cut the places 
up with? 

A. — Saws. 

Q. — Where did they get the saws? 

A. — I can't tell you. They may 
have been saws carried there at some 
former time by some other men. 

Q. — Are liquors or drugs smuggled 
into the penitentiary to any great 
extent? 



178 



Beport and Findings of 



A. — No, sir; not much; however, 
we got on to a distillery a while 
back. I found it in the foundry near 
the cupola, and the other night we 
found a box of prunes that they had 
souring. We never say anything 
about things like this. 

Q. — How about the discipline in 
the penitentiary here? 

A. — As a rule, it is good. There 
are not over 20 or 30 mien who do 
not want to get along. 

Q. — Do you classify them accord- 
ing to the terms of the law? 

A. — I have about 210 men in the 
first grade. I don't think I have 
over 40 or 50 in the second grade and 
third grade. 

Q. — How many have you in 
stripes? 

A. — None. When I first came 
here there were three men in stripes, 
and by an agreement with the Com- 
mission I got the stripes removed. 
One of these men had escaped twice 
and was considered a bad boy, but I 
would not be afraid to trust him 
now, and there was one I considered 
a half-witted fellow. I don't think 
the man is strong minded. Lee and 
King are entitled to stripes again. 

Q. — And you have not since you 
have been here put a man in stripes 
voluntarily? 

A. — No, sir. I don't believe it is 
the intention of the Commission to 
have white clothes and stripes to- 
gether, and I believe when a pris- 
oner has white clothes on he is in- 
tended to be put on a farm where 
they all have white clothes. 

Q. — Have you had any complaints 
from men on account of the food? 

A. — No, sir; I have not had any 
complaint in months. I consider we 
feed our men well here, and I want 
to say we have sixteen men on the 
farm here and I don't believe we 
have a man in the country who is 
doing his work more carefully, or is 
any more interested in his crop. 

Q. — Are you clearing up this 
wreckage as fast as you can? 

A. — Yes, sir; just as fast as we 
can. I want to say this: we have 
forty or fifty men here who are not 
really able to do any class of work, 
and we are using them to clear up 
the debris. 

Q. — What proportion of your pris- 
on population is inefficient or non- 
productives? 

A. — I would say at the present 
time one-fifth of them, or not quite 



one-fifth, are not really men who 
could be considered laboring men. 

Q. — In the last six months how 
many men have you had on the aver- 
age in the hospital? 

A. — We have had six or eight in the 
hospital, and I would like for the 
Committee to ask the physician about 
the punishments that have come un- 
der his observance that have been 
executed under his term of office. 

Q. — You have about 450 acres of 
land in cultivation? 

A. — Yes, sir. 
a Q. — What is the increase over 
that of last year? 

A. — About one hundred acres. 

The Committee requests that Mr. 
Palmer file with the Committee an 
inventory of all live stock at the 
Rusk penitentiary. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Now we have an estimate of 
the property lost on account of the 
fire, but we would like to get at the 
actual cash outlay as the result of 
the fire. We do this in order to ac- 
count as near as possible for the de- 
ficit revenue for any money expended. 
In other words, . how much money 
have you expended in cash in re- 
storing the Rusk penitentiary, inas- 
much as it has been restored, to put 
the plants in operation? Now one 
thing you have put in is the box fac- 
tory. 

A. — That was before the fire. 

Q. — So that was not lost by fire? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Now how much capital out- 
lay, or how much indebtedness, has 
been created, due to the efforts of 
the prison authorities here in re- 
storing the prison plant here? 

A. — There has been very little 
money expended up to this time. We 
had quite a lot of lumber shipped 
in here for improvements and in or- 
der to build a temporary dining room, 
for which I made requisition. There 
has been six or eight hundred dollars 
spent for the Rusk foundry, but I 
think possibly the requisitions for 
that was made prior to the fire, and 
that is about all that has been done. 

Q. — Do you get ten hours' labor 
out of your convicts within the walls? 

A. — Practically,' we do now. We 
are endeavoring to work them ten 
hours. 

Q. — You approximate ten hours? 

A. — I do within the walls. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



179 



TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK, 
TEXAS. 

Testimony by John M. Moore. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — You have familiarized your- 
self with the estimated cost of main- 
taining convicts under all the audits 
that have been made the last few 
years, and the estimated cost is 
around $16 per month per convict. 
From your investigation of the rec- 
ords and the methods of figuring the 
cost of maintenance, do you believe 
that that represents the actual cost 
of maintenance? 

A. — It does so far as Huntsville 
and Rusk is concerned. That is 
reasonable, fair and accurate for 
these two points. At the other 
points it is absolutely unreliable. 

Q. — What I am trying to get at 
is whetheor or not this Committee 
could accept the estimate of $16 
per month per capita as applied to 
the entire convict population for the 
last two years? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think that is fair. 

Q. — Are there any elements of ex- 
pense represented in these various 
accounts in your judgment that have 
not been taken into consideration 
and which have not been figured? 

A. — There is absolutely nothing 
accurate about the carrying out of 
the supplemental information of any 
of the books in the system at any 
point. They are not properly classi- 
fied anywhere and have never been. 

Q. — Then you would not be willing 
to say you believe this estimate of 
cost maintenance is correct? 

A. — No, I would not any more 
than I would any other particular 
account therein set forth, and I defy 
any man to show the cost was over 
$15.80 the two years prior. They 
have no books whatever to back up 
the statement. 

Q. — Do you believe, Mr. Moore, 
you could take the records of the 
penitentiary system and prepare for 
the use of the Committee, within the 
next ten days, an estimate that 
would be more reliable in your judg- 
ment as to the actual cost of main- 
tenance for the convicts for the last 
two years? 

A. — I could not come nearly as 
close to giving you that particular 
information as to what it ought to 
be, taken from the United States 
Army standpoint — in the food, qual- 
ity, and what it should be. 



Q. — Would you be willing to pre- 
pare such an estimate? 

A. — I would, so far as the foods 
are concerned. You understand in 
the maintenance the clothing is 
worked into this. 

Q. — I will ask you, Mr. Moore, as 
auditor of the penitentiary system, 
to prepare from the records kept at 
the Rusk penitentiary, memorandum 
of all the expenditures the State of 
Texas has made at Rusk, and the 
purposes for which the various 
amounts have been appropriated. If 
the convict labor enters into this it 
should be separately stated. 

A. — This will have to be an esti- 
mate. 

Q. — You say that will have to be 
an estimate? 

A. — Convict labor has been con- 
sidered of no value because prior to 
1010 — 

Q. — Did I understand you to say 
the system of bookkeeping recom- 
mended by the auditor some years 
ago was never put into its entirety? 

A. — No, sir; they only laid the 
foundation by simply recommending 
that some one complete the system 
started by them. That has been 
called to the attention of the Com- 
mission from time to time, and from 
that time to the present time. 

Q. — I believe, in a statement made 
by Mr. Haynes, the bookkeeper, he 
says the system was installed by 
them? 

A. — I want to correct that. They 
only laid the foundation and insisted 
it should be completed, and stated 
the completion would be a saving 
of $25,000 per year to the prison 
system. It never has been com- 
peted. 



I TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK, 
TEXAS. 

Testimony by J. W. Grammer. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Are you connected with the 
orison system? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In what capacity? 

A. — Steward. 

Q. — How long have you been con- 
< cted with the prison system? 

A. — Since the 6th day of last No- 
. mber. 

Q. — Were you ever connected with 
the prison system before? 

A. — Yes, sir; I served as Sergeant 



180 



Report and Findings of 



on the ore beds. 

Q. — Could you state to the Com- 
mittee, or give them your idea of 
what it would cost to mine the ore, 
including taking off the overhead 
covering? 

A. — The officials claimed it cost 
50 cents per ton at that time. 

Q. — Did that include taking off the 
overhead covering? 

A. — Including everything. 

Q. — Did that include the cost of 
bringing it into the plant? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — All of that? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How did they arrive at the 
50 cents? 

A. — I could not tell you. 

Q. — Do you know how many men 
it would take each day to mine fifty 
tons of ore and do the stripping? 

A. — Of course, I can't tell about 
that. Some is heavy and some is 
very light stripping. 

Q. — So you don't know how they 
arrive at the 50 cents? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you know whether or not 
if it was purely an estimate, and if 
it included the cost of the guards? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q.— «-At that time did the prison 
officials charge up a per diem against 
any work done by convicts? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How long ago was that? 

A. — I commenced January 1, 1900, 
and remained until September, 1906. 

Q. — What kind of labor did you 
use — white or black? 

A. — Mixed. As a rule some were 
second-class and some third-class. 

Q. — After the ore was stripped, 
how much ore would a man get out 
per day? 

A. — I would guess two men would 
get out ten tons per day; that is, 
get it out and pile it up. 

Q. — Did that rule apply to all the 
beds, or to any particular bed of 
ore? 

A. — That was any part of the bed 
where we were working. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the ore 
fields out here? 

A. — No, sir; I only went over it 
where I worked. 

Q.— You do know it is in pockets? 

A. — Yes, sir; it covers all the tops 
of the hills. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Did you ever find the ore ex- 
cept on top of the hills? 



A. — Yes, sir; on the side of the 
hills. 

Q. — Where you find, it on the sides 
bf the hills, do you find it to any 
considerable extent? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Are not the deposits you find 
to any considerable extent only on 
top of the hills? 

A. — That is about the only place 
it is hardly worth working. 

Q. — Is it not pretty difficult to 
estimate the cost of mining this ore 
on account of the difficulty in mining 
it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many acres have you su- 
perintended stripping? 

A. — I don't know. I would have 
to guess at it. I worked there six 
years. 

Q. — What would you say was the 
average cost of stripping the deposit 
you superintended? 

A. — It would be more than 50 
cents. 

Q. — You include the cost of strip- 
ping, loading, etc.? 

A. — Yes, sir; the officials estimate 
the cost of stripping the ore, and 
working it. 

Q. — What is the average depth of 
the ore? 

A. — I will say the average depth 
after stripping is from four and a 
half to five feet. 

Q. — You have never found any de- 
posit at a greater depth than five 
feet? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have found it at 
a depth of fourteen feet. 

Q. — What was the shallowest 
depth? 

A. — On the outside of the hill. 

Q. — What distance do you have 
to move this? 

A. — I would just break it up and 
just throw it back where we broke 
it up. 

Q. — Did you ever take a contract 
for moving dirt by the cubic yard? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How did you move this? 

A. — With an ordinary wheel 
scraper. 

Q. — Under the terms of the con- 
tract you heard Mr. Cabell state — 

A. — I never heard him. 

Q. — Do you believe thirty men can 
get out fifty tons per day? 

A. — It is according to how much 
dirt they move. 

Q. — Have you ever heard any es- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



181 



timate made of the ore deposits 
owned by the State? 

A. — I have heard, but I disremem- 
ber. 

Q. — Do you think it is worth while 
for the State to sell its ore at five 
cents per ton in the ground? 

A. — If they could sell it all, I 
think it would. 

Q. — But you have no definite in- 
formation as to the extent of this 
deposit for the acreage? 

A. — No; but I know there is ore in 
all the hills I have examined. 

Q. — Don't you think there is one 
acre out of every fifty owned by 
the State that contains ore? 

A. — I don't know how much they 
own. 

Q. — They own four thousand 
acres. 

A. — (No response.) 
Q. — Did you ever hear anything 
of the ore right the State holds? 

A. — Yes, sir. I saw it one time in 
the reports how much they paid for 
it, but it was very little. 

Q. — Have they paid for it? 
A. — I guess they have. It has 
been over thirty years ago. 

Q. — You are not familiar with the 
contract? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you any suggestions re- 
garding the mining of that ore that 
would reduce the expense of getting 
it here over the method that was 
employed at the time you worked 
the beds before? 

A. — No, sir; I don't know that I 
have. 

Q. — If you were placed in charge 
of that would you employ the same 
plans as you did at that time to get 
it out and down here? 
A. — I think so. 

Q. — You think that is the cheap- 
est? 

A. — The cheapest ever tried in this 
country. 

Q. — Do you know what it cost to 
move the railroad around from bed 
to bed? 

A. — No, sir; I do not. I always 
took my men and did it. 
By Senator John G. Willacy: 
Q. — You say we get the ore only 
on top of the hills? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you tell us the average 
depth of the overhead earth? 

A. — I will say it will average five 
feet. 



Q. — And it will cost you how much 
per cubic yard to take it off? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — If the overhead earth is three 
feet deep there will be 40,048 cubic 
yards to take off each acre, and if 
it is six feet deep there will be 
96,096 cubic yards of overhead earth 
to take off the ore, and you could 
not tell what it would cost the State 
to take that off? 

A. — No, sir. 

Senator Jno. G. Willacy interro- 
gates Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — Were you ever informed as 
to the amount of men required to 
mine fifty ton of ore per day? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you not say yesterday that 
you understood it would take a cer- 
tain number of men to mine the ore? 

A. — I imagine it would cost under 
the most favorable circumstances 10 
cents or more per yard to move the 
dirt. The contractors figure on 10 
to 14 cents to move the dirt, and 
this is harder to move than the ave- 
rage stuff. I believe if it was moved 
with a steam shovel it would be more 
economical. If it was moved with a 
steam shovel it would cost about 16 
cents per cubic yard. 



TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK 
TEXAS. 

Testimony by P. E. Jones, Prison 
Physician. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — What is your name? 

A.— P. E. Jones. 

Q. — How long have you been con- 
nected with the Rusk Penitentiary as 
physician? 

A. — Since the first day of February, 
1913. 

Q. — What has been the average 
number of inmates since you have 
been here ? 

A. — I could not be accurate with- 
out referring to the records. I would 
say about eight confined to the bed 
on an average. I could tell you exact- 
ly by going into the office. 

Q. — Does that represent the aver- 
age number in the hospital? 

A. — That means confined to the bed. 

Q. — What would be the actual num- 
ber incapacited for work? 

A. — About twenty. We have quite 
a number of men here who are not 
able-bodied men. 



182 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Are there any men now who 
are required to work who are not 
physically able to work? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — It has been your policy to 
examine the men from time to time? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is there any particular ailment 
that has afflicted the men? 

A. — We have at the present time 
an epidemic of bowel trouble, and 
it has been troubling us for the last 
two weeks — those generally over the 
community. 

Q.i — Have you changed your ra- 
tions ? 

A. — Yes, sir; we have looked into 
it. 

Q. — Do you think the rations caused 
this epidemic ? 

A. — No, sir; I do not. 

Q. — Do you make the physical 
examination here? 

A. — That is made at Huntsville, I 
suppose. 

Q. — Or do you receive the men and 
make no special examination when 
they come in? 

A. — We have received no men since 
I came here. 

Q. — In sending men to the farm do 
you make an examination of them? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How do you make a diagnosis 
of the inmates ? 

A. — Very often I hear of a condi- 
tion and have a man brought in and 
I examine him. 

Q. — Have you any insane men in 
the penitentiary? 

A. — We have three confined in their 
cells. 

Q. — How long have you had them? 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — Were they here when you 
came? 

A. — Yes, sir; one of them was. The 
other two have been pronounced in- 
sane since I came here. 

Q. — Is it the policy of the manage- 
ment of the penitentiary to have you 
see every case of punishmens ? 

A. — I have. I think I have seen 
every case. 

Q. — You are familiar with the 
terms of the law regarding punish- 
ment? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you state there has been 
no instanec of violation of the law in 
regard to punishment? 

A. — I don't think there was ever a 
man punished when he was not able 
to undergo the punishment. 



At this time Dr. Jones produced 
a report and there was some general 
discussion among the Committee and 
Dr. Jones, and he explained it showed 
the ages, number of the men, etc., 
and stated they would find some 
where men advanced in years and not 
able to do a day's work physically, 
and that a great many of them suf- 
fered from hemorrhages, etc. 

Q. — How often do you make up 
these reports ? 

A. — That is the only one. I make 
up a report each month. There are 
practically one out of every five who 
are not able-bodied men. 

Mr. Tillotson requests that copy 
of report under date of May 1, 1913, 
be submitted to him by Mr. Jones, 
also to send him copy of report of 
insane convicts about one year ago. 



TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK, 
TEXAS. 

Testimony by Sam J. Smith. - 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 
Q- — Please give your full name to 
the Secretary. 

A. — Sam J. Smith. 

Q- — What is your position in the 
penitentiary system ? 

A. — Superintendent State Prison 
factories at Rusk. 

Q.— All the factories? 

A. — Yes, sir; at Rusk. There is 
nothing here but the box factory. Of 
course, we had some other factories, 
but the box factory is now all we 
have. 

Q. — How many men are you em- 
ploying now? 

A. — Sixty, now. I really ought to 
have seventy or seventy-five all the 
time. 

Q. — What is your daily output with 
your sixty men? 

A. — That depends on conditions. It 
would be hard to arrive at what would 
be a daily output. 

Q. — How long have you been run- 
ning the box factory? 

A. — From about September 1, last 
year. We started with new men and 
I have never had a man who worked 
in a box factory before. I had to 
learn them all from the beginning, 
and we had to cut the stock of lumber 
and let it dry. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



183 



Q. — Did they engage in his box 
factory without provisions for raw 
material ? 

A. — After we began we had to 
secure orders for the finished product 
and create a market for it, and we 
would have time while we were doing 
this to saw up a lot of lumber and 
get it in condition for the order. 

Q. — You you satisfy yourself as to 
the market? Did you have any as- 
surance of having a market for your 
products ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Where do you market your 
products ? 

A. — Cuba and Porto Rico. 

Q. — Did you try to get any of the j 
Texas trade? 

A. — We could have got lots of 
business, but we had a little agitation 
in East Texas, and the box factories 
complained about the convict labor 
being brought into competition 
against them. They got up a petition 
and caried it to the Governor. 

Q. — They did not want any compe- 
tition? 

A. — They thought the convicts 
made them cheaper than free labor. 

Q. — Have you sold your output 
pretty well up to date? 

A. — Yes, sir. I sold last September 
about as much as we can make in 
the next eight or ' ten or twelve 
months. 

Q. — Have you orders in Porta Rico 
and Cuba for your entire output, or 
do you get your orders from time to 
time? 

A. — We have not been able to fill 
the orders we took in last summer. 

Q. — Are those continued orders or 
certain quantities at a time? In other 
words, have you a reasonable hope for 
a continuous market for your sup- 
plies? 

A. — Yes, sir; no question about that. 

Q. — After the different products for 
which these crates and boxes are 
used are finally shipped into the mar- 
ket, then have you looked into the 
sale of the other products that are 
coming on that you furnish boxes 
for? 

A. — Yes, sir. When I first came 
with the State I brought these cus- 
tomers with me. I already had the 
trade established. I knew there was 
no doubt about the business. 

Q. — What does it cost to build 
equipments of that kind? 

A.— Practically $29,000. 



Q. — Have you ever figured on the 
cost of material and the cost of oper- 
ations, including the usual charge 
per diem for the convicts? Have you 
ever figured that upon a given amount 
of products as against the amount of 
money we receive for that product 
net so as to be able to see whether 
or not the State is making a profit 
out of that industry? 

A. — I don't know that I have. 

Q. — Have you got it figured down 
so you know what a crate costs you, 
or about? 

A. — It is a little difficult to figure. 
There are a number of things arising 
with convict labor that do not appear 
with free labor. 

Q. — So you don't know whether 
you are making a profit or not? 

A. — Well, I think we are. I think 
we are making a little money. It is 
hardly expected that a new plant 
would make any money the first year. 

Q. — You have been running this box 
factory since September 1? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — \\ r e would like to have the cost 
of operation and the amount received 
so as to find out whether it is carried 
on at a profit or loss and in that 
connection will ask how you sell your 
products? 

A. — Thirty days cash. 

Q. — Have you any difficulty in col- 
lecting these amounts? 

A. — No, sir; they are paid prompt- 
ly. 

Q— You sell F. O. B. here? 

A. — F. O. B. Havana You can't 
ship open to a foreign port I will 
say while I was putting in 
this factory I made requisi- 
tion for a boiler and engine 
for power to run our plant, and 
after some little time it was reported 
to me there was no boiler or engine 
available in the System that would 
give me the sufficient power I wanted; 
consequently they gave me a fifty 
horse-power engine from, the machine 
shop, and a hundred and fifty horse- 
power boiler. 

Q. — You have a separate plant out 
there? 

A. — We have a steam shaft and an 
electric shaft, and some of the ma- 
chinery is run with electric motors. 
If I had received steam power enough 
I would not have had to be charged 
with electricity. I have plenty of 
fuel out there, and I have to haul it 
off and burn it up. 



184 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — How do you arrive at the 
charge against your plant for electri- 
city? 

A. — So much is charged a kilowatt. 

Q. — You sugested there are some 
things that ought not to be charged 
against the plant? 

A. — If this had been put in at the 
beginning, it would not be necessary 
to use any electricity at all. 

Q. — In other words, if you had a 
steam plant capable of taking charge 
of everything, you could dispense 
with the electricity of the Peniten- 
tiary System? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do they make a charge of con- 
vict labor there? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How much do they charge? 

A.— $1.10. 

Q. — Does that vary? 

A. — Yes, sir; some. 

Q. — Do you have any more men 
than you need, or as much as you 
need? 

A. — Sometimes the conditions vary. 

Q. — Are you furnished with the 
number of men you need from time to 
time, or are you furnished with more 
men than you can economically use 
from time to time? 

A. — I have to have sufficient men 
that can do what is necessary to be 
done for you cannot tell what minute 
men are goint to the hospital, and 
there are that many men short that 
day and until they come back. 

Q. — What about your material? If 
the box factory continues to run, and 
probably be enlarged, what assurance 
have you of getting the material you 
need at reasonable figures? 

A. — Fifteen months ago I con- 
tracted for a sufficient amount of tim- 
ber to run two or three years, and I 
think there is no question of getting 
all the timber we need indefinitely. 
There is lots of timber, however, I 
have had no opportunity to buy. 

Q. — Do you have to have any spec- 
ial grade of timber? 

A. — Sweet gum and pine is all that 
is necessary. We contracted for this 
timber before the foundation of this 
factory was built and I got it cheap 
because they did not know who would 
use it, but since they have found out 
the State was going to use it they 
have doubled the price. 

Q. — Is that the general rule when 
the State wants to buy anything? 

A. — I don't know about that. It 
seems to be the general rule of the 
nesters. 



Q.— Is there any reason, Mr. Smith, 
in your mind, why the box factory 
cannot be made a real success, and 
if there is a reason, what is it? 

A. — If we could put in sufficient 
steam power to eliminate the expense 
of electricity; keeping an average of 
seventy-five men, and plenty of tim- 
ber, there is no question on earth 
about the success of the plant. 

Q. — Do you think you could keep it 
going and sell all the products at a 
profit? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How do your men seem to 
adapt themselves to this work? 

A. — They seem to like it. A band 
sawer gets from $7 to $10 per day. 
Of course, a man of five or six months' 
experience could not go out and get 
a job like this, but then if they are 
found efficient they can fall into a 
job of sawer. 

Q. — How many employes have you 
out there; not convicts? 

A. — Only one. He is the yard 
foreman. 

Q. — Do you use any guards in the 
box factory at all? 

A. — One. 

Q. — The plant is run with sixty 
men? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do men • work better with 
guards than without them? 

A. — He does not interfere with the 
convicts at all. He sees that they 
do not go out in cars, and he looks 
for those that hide out. 

Q. — In steaming your logs, do you 
use the exhaust steam? 

A. — We use the exhaust. 

Q. — Is the stock you have not in- 
tended to fill the orders you have on 
hand? 

A. — There are a few crates up 
there that are unsold, but they are 
made from scraps. 

Q. — What do you make cabbage 
crates of? 

A. — Scraps. When finances were 
low and they needed some cabbage 
here, I recommended that we sell 
some crates and take our money out 
in cabbage. 

Q. — Did you make any money? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you get the cabbage as 
cheap as you could have for cash? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you any suggestions you 
would care to make in line with the 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



185 



successful operations other than you 
have made? 

A. — I think this is necessary, 
though I don't know as it is in line 
with what you are talking about. 
Now in regard to the work and han- 
dling of labor, the legislature seems 
to have condemned the only system 
of punishment we have, and have 
made no other. I notice in the paper 
where the dark cell and dungeon is 
condemned, and they have not left 
anything in place of it, and the con- 
victs know this. I worked about 
300 men six or seven years ago, 
and I never had any trouble work- 
ing them, and I only had one whipped 
in three years, and if a man was 
put on a task of work he did his 
task. Now out here it takes about 
two men to do one man's work. 

Q. — What is the reason for this? 

A. — Now in the first place, they 
don't work as many hours. 

Q. — How many hours do you think 
you should work them? 

A. — Ten hours, but now while they 
are supposed to work the ten hours 
they are not working all the time. 

Q. — How many men did you work 
in the furniture factory for a num- 
ber of years? 

A. — One hundred and fifty to two 
hundred and fifty. 

Q. — Can you tell the Committee 
why it was not a success? 

A. — It was a success, I think. 

Q. — Will it show a profit if you 
charge the convict labor against the 
manufacturer? 

A. — Yes, sir; and it was actual 
profit. I was getting money from 
abroad and bringing it here. 

Q. — How about your collections? 

A. — I think they were good. 

Q. — Now this box factory, do you 
think it good, clean, healthful work 
for the men? 

A. — I don't know of .anything 
against a man's health. In building 
the plant we put safety devices on all 
the machines, and consequently have 
not had men hurt while running the 
plant. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Will you state what periods 
you were in charge at Rusk? 

A. — I went out before Mr. Camp- 
bell came in. I was traveling sales- 
man for two or three years, and un- 
der the latter part of Sayers' ad- 
ministration and the first part of 
Lanham's administration, second 
year of Lanham's administration I 



was made superintendent of the fac- 
tories. 

Q. — Were you familiar with the 
Auditor's report of the manufactur- 
ing enterprises at Rusk? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Were you here in 1904? 

A. — I think so. 

Q. — Are you aware of the fact that 
the Auditor's report covering all 
those years uniformly shows all the 
factories conducted at Rusk were 
operating at a loss? 

A. — No, sir; I did not know that. 

Q. — Were you here in 1906? 

A. — W(hen did Governor Camp- 
bell's term begin? 

A. — 1907. 

A. — I was here in six, five and 
four. 

Q. — Were you in charge of the 
other manufacturing plants during 
those years? 

A. — (No response). 

Q. — During the two years it shows 
the manufacturing departments lost 
$10,277. Are you familiar with the 
method of accounting by the system 
at that time which might give us 
any reason for assuming the state- 
ment contained in this audit is not 
correct, and that the operation of 
the furniture factory justified you in 
assuming there was a profit? 

A. — I remember on my report 
there was a profit shown every 
month. 

Q. — I will say, Mr. Smith, the re- 
port indicates that all those years 
the factories at Rusk were unprofit- 
able. The Committee hoped that 
you being in charge at that time, 
might be able to state the method of 
accounting for profits and losses, 
and the method of operations would 
indicate whether or not this audit 
is all right. 

A. — I only had the stuff made, 
and that was all. 

Q. — Did you have charge of the 
buying of the raw material? 

A. — Yes, sir; I bought the lumber. 

Q. — Did you have charge of the 
selling? 

A. — No, sir; they had a regular 
traveling salesman on the road at 
that time. 

Q. — Was your relation to the fur- 
niture factory at that time such that 
you would know whether it was op- 
erating at a profit or not? 

A. — I was really only superin- 
tendent of the manufacturing of the 
goods, but I kept track of what was 
bought. 



186 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — What constituted and what 
was the amount of furniture sold? 

A. — I had nothing to do with the 
bookkeeping or shipping of the 
goods. Now, I don't want to take 
issue with the auditor, but I still 
say we operated at a profit. In going 
back several years there were num- 
bers of persons in the prison system 
that were not good at bookkeeping, 
and it is very hard to arrive at actual 
results. 

Q. — Well, you say when you came 
to the system last fall you brought 
the trade you now have with you? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Where were you operating at 
the time prior to your coming here? 

A. — Orange, Texas. 

Q. — What is your method of se- 
curing trade in foreign countries? 

A. — I always make personal trips 
to the West Indies. I sold a few 
cars five or six years ago through a 
broker, and they were well satisfied, 
and since that time I go there and 
sell to parties I know are all right. 

Q. — Were you familiar with the 
Huntsville operations? 

A. — Yes, sir; we had a compara- 
tive statement every month. 

Q. — As a matter of policy, do you 
think it advisable for the State to 
engage in the manufacture of an 
article like boxes that is hardly con- 
sidered a staple article on which you 
would have to depend on a special 
trade? Now, if you make wagons, 
chairs or anything of that kind, that 
is what you might call a staple ar- 
ticle, but boxes is a special article for 
a certain kind of trade, and you have 
only a demand in special territories 
at certain seasons. Do you think it 
advisable for the State to engage in 
the manufacture of articles of this 
character? 

A. — There is no closed season on 
the box trade, if you know where 
the trade is and how to get it. 

Q. — -Now, state where you could 
get a market for the boxes you might 
make this year? 

A. — I could ship now — I could 
ship a number of orange boxes to 
Jamaica and Porto Rico and different 
points in Cuba. I turned down one 
order I knew we could not fill at 
all, amounting to $70,000. 

Q. — How long do these particular 
demands continue? 

A. — They continue for the whole 
year, but those previous contracts 



prevented me from accepting any- 
thing else. 

Q. — Have you figured those export 
contracts in competition with the 
local contracts; that ,is, figured on 
them to see if they were as profita- 
ble? 

They are not as profitable. I 
should judge about 15 or 20 per 
cent less profit on the box trade, and 
it is on account of paying the freight 
to the seaboard, and we would vir- 
tually save 15 per cent at least. 

Q. — When you make your drafts 
thirty days, in the ordinary course 
of collection, how long is it before 
you get returns? 

A. — About forty days. 

Q. — Have you any information as 
to the loss sustained in the furniture 
department as to sales for which col- 
lections are not made? 

A. — No, sir; I am not in position 
to know about those things. 

Q. — What kind of furniture did 
you leave on hand here when you 
left in 1904 or 1906? 

A. — I know what it was when I 
came back. 

Q. — What class of furniture did 
you make at that time? 

A. — Chairs, tables, bookcases, and 
all kinds. 

Q. — What did you find when you 
came back? 

A. — I found bookcases, sideboards, 
desks, chairs, but nothing you could 
push the sale on. You could not 
close out the entire stock to any par- 
ticular merchant very well. 

Q. — Is your sole reason for confin- 
ing the trade to the foreign trade 
mainly on account of the protest of 
the Texas box factories? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. When 
this controversy arose, I formulated 
a letter and submitted it to Governor 
Colquitt and sent it to the box men 
in the State of Texas telling them that 
our business was export business, and 
we would not interfere with them in 
any way, and that was the policy of 
the Prison Commission. The Gover- 
nor said it was all right, and to send 
out all I could. I told them in our 
letter that we expected to keep on 
hand so many car loads of crates in 
case of famine, and should there be 
a combination to control the prices 
we would sell direct to the user at a 
modest price, thus saving as much as 
we could, and that we would mar- 
ket them direct to the fruit grower. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



187 



It seemed to satisfy the fruit grower 
ai d the manufacturer both. 

Q. — There is no objection to nick- 
ing or selling baskets? 

A. — I can make baskets or any- 
thing that can be made. 

Q. — Have you sold anything at all 
to any manufacturer? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have they sent you any or- 
ders to fill? 

A. — I have an order sent me yes- 
terday for a carload of heads to send 
to Mineola. It is from a friend of 
mine in a factory at Tyler, and he 
wants some stuff. 

Q. — Have you an agreement as to 
the price you will furnish this to 
them? 

A. — The price is agreed upon when 
they first purchase them. 

Q. — At what price will you sell 
the order? 

A. — I will not fill it at all. He | 
wants it too cheap. They only want l 
the heading for the crates. They 
make the other part themselves. 

Q. — Do you think you could get 
more from the Mineola manufacturer 
than you could get from the export 
trade? 

A. — I think probably it would be 
a little more. I have not compared 
the prices as yet, but think it would 
be a little more. 

Q. — Do you think you are justified 
in confining your sales to foreign 
trade at a reduction of 15 to 20 per 
cent under market prices, solely for 
the reasons you have stated? 

A. — No, sir; if left to me I would 
have sold them at the beginning, but 
as I stated before, I would not care 
to handicap the Commissioners or 
Governor, or ^antagonize their inter- 
ests with the people right around 
where tbe factories were located. 

Q. — You have practically the ex- 
clusive export box business from 
Texas today? 

A. — Yes, sir; the one at Orange 
is the only one doing export busi- 
ness. 

Q. — Do you think there is any 
likelihood of the Texas box factories 
increasing to any extent? 

A; — (No response.) 

Q. — In other words, you think as 
long as you stay out of Texas at 15 
to 20 per cent less than the market 
price that they will keep out of your 
territory? 

A. — It was not done for that rea- 
son at all. We are unfortunate in 



being so far from the seaboard. We 
can not get as much for our goods 
as those nearer the seaboard. I 
say that is the reason our trade is 
not profitable. 

Q. — It is 150 miles nearer to the 
market and they have better water 
rates besides? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Under those conditions you 
think the prospects for maintaining 
a box factory at Rusk promises a 
profitable permanent enterprise? 

A. — Yes, sir; because when this 
class of business is over we get into 
a business that you might consider 
more profitable, because it is lighter 
goods and does not weigh so much, 
and you get more out of it, but you 
put more labor into it, and the 
freight is not so much, and I think 
it is more profitable. I took two 
orders together — the' order when we 
get through with this I consider 
should turn us out about 30 or 40 
per cent net profit. 

Q. — Which order is that? 

A. — The one where I took two to- 
gether, but the profit I have in mind 
is on 300,000 macaroni boxes. 

Q. — How many contracts have you 
today? 

A. — One. 

Q. — Who is that made with? 

A. — J. N. Alleyn, Havana. 

Q. — Do they box the fruit, or do 
they buy the boxes for fruit grow- 
ers? 

A. — They buy and sell them to 
fruit growers. 

Q. — Do they get a commission? 

A. — No, sir; they get a profit; they 
make about 1-2 to 3-4 cents per 
crate. 

Q. — Do they send you orders for 
crates for different purposes from 
time to time? 

A. — When I was over there I took 
an order for 135 carloads of stuff, 
and that was all I wanted. I have 
no use for more at the present time, 
anyway. 

Q. — That was made up of what 
kinds? 

A. — Two kinds only. 

Q. — Your present capacity, what 
do you think could be your output? 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — Have you enough orders to 
run you the rest of the year? 

A. — I think so. It never worries 
me about taking the orders. It is 
making the stuff that I worry about, 



188 



Report and Findings of 



the raw material and running it out 
of the mill. 

Q. — What would be the addition- 
al cost for equipping your plant so 
you could operate fifty more men? 
Could you use them profitably? 

A. — I could use more men prof- 
itably than I now have. With a 
very little cost we might put in a 
few more machines and use more 
men. 

Q. — Have you any idle machines 
now in your present equipment? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are they machines that are 
necessary in your present output? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — They are not machines bought 
for this purpose in box making? 

A. — No, sir; they are machines we 
use regularly when we have the labor. 

Q. — How many machines have you 
that are idle, and how many men 
would you require additional to 
operate the machines now idle? 

A. — About twenty or twenty-five 
men. After the first of June I have 
got ten or twelve men who are now 
working in the yard, putting lumber 
on the dry kilns and taking it down, 
after then I will take these men and 
put them on the machines. 

Q. — How much lumber should you 
have on hand at all times in order to 
keep the supply of lumber ahead? 

A. — If we make pineapple crates 
we ought to have at the beginning of 
the season 600,000 feet. 

Q. — How many feet have you on 
hand now? 

A. — We have none now. It is com- 
ing direct to us from the saw mill, 
and we have to dry it. 

Q. — How many feet have you in the 
yards now? 

A.— About 350,000 feet. 

Q.— What kind is it? 

A. — Most of it is gum and the rest 
is pine. 

Q. — Does it make any difference 
whether it is seasoned or not in the 
manufacture of boxes ? 

A. — Yes, sir; the freight will range 
from $15 to $30 more per carload. 
It wants to be absolutely dry. 

Q. — You say the freight will pay 
the interest on an additional invest- 
ment of stock? 

A. — It will be quite a saving. 

Q. — You feel sure, Mr. Smith, that 
your method of accounting, take care 
of your overhead expenses (all the 
items should be considered in endeav- 
ering to ascertain whether or not 



you can operate at a profit) and that 
those things have been taken into 
consideration by you today? 

A. — I don't try to keep any regular 
system of bookkeeping out there. I 
only keep a memorandum out in my 
office, and I really don't know exactly 
how the matter stands. 

Q. — You have a certain fixed charge 
for power and a certain scale for 
labor. How do you credit your over- 
head expenses or do you charge it 
up? 

A. — Now, in regard to the power. 
I don't know what that is until three 
or four months. I have a meter there, 
but I can't read it any more than 
Chinese, and I don't know until some- 
body comes along and reads the 
meter, and these other expenses are 
charged up on the books here. I 
have been trying to get on a basis 
on which I could make a price on the 
products, and you can only make a 
price on the products when you know 
what it is costing you, and you 
don't know exactly what it is cost- 
ing. 

Q. — Are you operating at a profit? 

A. — Now, if you want the business, 
you have to take it at that or what" 
other people can make it for on the 
outside. 

Q. — Now, I want to know the rea- 
son the other factories in the State 
are staying away from the foreign 
t] ade ? 

A. — The principal reason the facto- 
ries are staying away from that trade 
there is no one that is large enough. 
They could not get out an order of 
that magnitude or an order that they 
would want to place. You see what 
they would want would be a tremen- 
dous order for any little factory in 
East Texas, and the business don't 
come that way. It comes 50, 75 and 
100 cars, and there is no factory I 
know vl that is able to get it out. 

Q. — You have been observing the 
manufacturing industries of the peni- 
tentiary system for a number of 
years. I will ask you to state to the 
Committee what industries the peni- 
tentiary system might engage in, at 
a reasonable profit? 

A. — It is a question of whether the 
penitentiary system should engage in 
the manufacturing industry at all. 
Some say it is always a loss, and 
others say it is always a profit. 

Q. — I would like for you to please 
indicate the manufacturing industries 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



189 



in your opinion the State could en- 
gage in at a profit. 

A. — I don't know whether or not I 
would be a competent juror. I thought 
I was making money out of the furni- 
ture department. I think wooden 
articles, and there is no question of 
convicts becoming adapted to it, and 
it is agreeable work, and learns them 
a trade so when they go out they will 
be useful citizens, and it would he 
profitable, and they might make furni- 
ture and chairs; not the kind of stuff 
we are now making, however. You 
would only want to make stuff up to 
date and salable. You can make good 
stuff with convicts. It is not neces- 
sary to make a cheap grade of furni- 
ture like we have been making. We 
use all the timber, but don't put the 
labor on it. You want to utilize all 
the timber in the country. Try to get 
something for the labor, but don't 
use so much timber. 

Q. — In your operations of the manu- 
bacturing departments do you change 
ycur men around so as to teach them 
all the details, or do you put one man 
at one place and keep him there all 
the time? 

A. — I prefer to keep a man at a 
machine there all the time. 

Q. — If you had a young man and 
you was going to teach him a trade 
so he will be of better service when 
he goes out, would it not be better 
policy to change him around? 

A. — There will be enough changing 
necessity forces us to change the 
men. They all have a good idea about 
the different machines out there. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — I understand you to say the box 
factories had the same schedule of 
prices ? 

A. — No, sir; I did not intend to say 
that. 

Q. — We have a basis down in my 
country and quotations are about the 
same. 

A. — Yes, sir; most of thlem are 
about the same. 

Q. — They almost have to be the 
same. 

A. — It is largely a question of 
freight rates. 

Q. — Could you give us an idea of 
your total sales ? At the present rate 
what would that amount to in one 
year? 

A. — You mean what I have sold and 
shipped up to this time? 

Yes, sir. 



A. — Counting my stock on hand 
when I began, I have shipped about 
$27,000 worth, first shipment Novem- 
ber 1. 

Q.— Is that the total ? 

A. — I think so. 

Q. — Were not the letters you sent 
out to the different box manufacturers 
in effect an agreement not to compete 
with them for the State's business, 
and that you were going after only 
the Cuban and Porta Rico business? 

A. — I did not consider that a bar- 
rier to going after the home trade. 
I will say it was the policy not to 
interfere. 

Q. — Your total value of the stuff 
manufactured up to date is $27,- 
000.00. 

A. — Yes, sir; about that. 

Q. — You think we have lost about 
15 to 20 per cent, in sales because 
it did not go into the State market? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tillotson requests that he 
would like for Mr. Smith to prepare 
a statement of all the items of cost 
entering into jlhe Jnanufacture of 
his products, and to file same with 
the committee. 

Mr. Smith states that is would be 
a hard mater to prepare this state- 
ment as they were handicapped in 
December and January; that they 
were without fuel to run the power 
plant, and that the electric part of 
the machinery which contained nine- 
tenths the capacity for producing 
was not in commission; that during 
the month of March they had floods 
and could not get the logs to the 
factory; that some days they had 
logs and some they did not, and that 
he did not see how he could arrive 
intelligently at the cost of anything 
made; that if he could have had all 
the material brought to him, and 
all the men he could work, and all 
the power necessary, etc., that he 
could give the exact cost. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — You stated in answer to a 
question by Mr. Willacy you could 
probably reduce the expense of op- 
erating by the installation of power 
over in your factory that would burn 
the fuel you have there. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now include in your state- 
ment your estimate of what would 
be saved. 

A. — There would be probably a 
saving of $3,000.00 per year. 



190 



Report and Findings of 



By Mr. Tom Finty: 

Q. — Why was it they did not have 
the fuel to operate the plant in De- 
cember and January? 

A. — I would like for you to ask 
the Commissioners. 

Mr. R. B. Humphreys suggests 
that Mr. Smith include in the state- 
ment requested by Mr. Tillotson the 
cost of the plant, the amount of re- 
ceipts, the amount of disbursements 
for various purposes, and if he can 
do so to prepare an inventory of the 
stock on hand at the present time; 
that it would enable the Legislature 
to form some idea as to whether or 
not the plant is doing a good busi- 
ness. Also to include in your state- 
ment estimate of the deterioration 
of all machinery. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — Now, they asked you about 
training your convicts in your plant. 
Is that a good trade to teach them? 
Are they not learning a good trade? 

A. — Yes, sir; they can get a job 
anywhere. I have never had a man 
that was ever in a box factory be- 
fore either. 

Q. — Your raw materials are pur- 
chased in this State, are they not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — The State does not own any 
timber that could be utilized for this 
purpose? 

A. — Very little; though I think 
some. 

Q. — Do I understand you to say 
the State has been discriminated 
against when it comes to the price 
of. the material? 

A. — -Yes, sir; I offered a certain 
price for some timber and got it, and 
when they found out it was for the 
State they doubled the price. 

Q. — Don't you think discrimina- 
tion is a very gentlemanly word? 

A. — It is a very modest way to say 
it. 

Q. — Now, what about moving this 
machinery and this plant? If the 
Legislature was to determine to move 
this plant could it be done without 
much expense? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — T^rom your experience as a box 
and crate manufacturer, what would 
be the life of such a plant as this? 

A. — About twenty or twenty-five 
years. Of course, you have to keep 
up the repairs, but if you do that 
you could run indefinitely, but there 
is new machinery coming out every 
few years and you might want to 
purchase a later or more modern 



machine, and of course, that does 
away with the old one. It might, 
however, deteriorate about five per 
cent, a year. 

Q. — Is not the light house out there 
maintained solely and expressly to 
keep up the box plant? 

A. — No, sir; they have one or two 
motors in the foundries, and they 
have lights here, and they furnish 
the town lights, too. 



TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK, 
TEXAS. 

Testimony of J. A. Stubblefield. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Please give your name in full 
to the stenographer. 

A. — J. A. Stubblefield, at Rusk, 
Texas. 

Q. — What is your position with 
the penitentiary system? 

A. — I am now superintendent of 
the State railroad. 

' Q. — And formerly you held what 
position? 

A. — Assistant Secretary of the 
Prison Commission. 

Q.- — You have control of all traffic, 
etc., on your lines? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In your present position you 
are general manager of the railroad 
properties? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. What is the mileage of the 
road? 

A. — Thirty-two and six-tenths 
miles. 

Q. — Is that exclusive Of the sid- 
ings? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — About what mileage have we 
in sidings? 

A. — About four or five miles of it. 

Q. — What is the physical condi- 
tion of the railroad property? 

A. — The( general surface of the 
road is good. We are in need of 
Ues and our bridges are bad. We 
have about sixteen bridges which 
should be repaired. 

Q. — You have how many bridges? 

A. — Sixteen. That includes cul- 
verts. 

Q. — Can you state how much that 
road is costing, taking a period of 
one year? 

A. — I could give you a statement 
exactly by going to the records for 
year ending June 30th, 1911, to June 
30th, 1912. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



191 



Q. — Would that be an average 
year's operation? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

It was requested by members of 
the committee that he give a com- 
plete statement in regard to railroad, 
which he did under date of May 17th, 
1913. 

Q. — That will include also the 
revenue? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. Could you state what the rev- 
enue would be without the records; 
or approximately? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Could you state if the revenue 
is in excess of the operations? 

A. — It is less than the cost of 
operation. 

Q. — In round figures, how much 
per year more does it cost to operate 
the road than we make out of it? 

A. — Probably $700.00 or $800.00 
per month. 

Q. — We are losing about how 
much on operation alone? 

A. — About $300.00 or $400.00 on 
operation alone under present con- 
ditions. 

Q. — Under the head of "Better- 
ments" do you include ordinary re- 
pairs or upkeeps such as section 
gangs? 

A. — No, sir; that is charged to 
maintenance. 

Q. — Could you give the committee 
any idea as to what it would cost 
the State to put the railroad in re- 
pair? 

A. — Do you mean railroad stand- 
ard? 

Q. — Railroad standard. 

A. — One hundred and seventy-five 
to two hundred thousand dollars. 

Q. — The railroad stee* or rails 
themselves, are in good condition, 
are they not? 

A. — About two and a half per cent, 
grades. 

Q. — How many of these grades 
are there? 

A. — We have two of them. 

Q. — Is it expensive to handle traf- 
fic under such conditions? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is the condition of the 
ties along that railroad? 

A. — Yes, sir; they are bad. 

Q. — Practically all of them? 

A. — I estimate we should have be- 
tween 40,000 or 50,000 removed in 
the next two years. 

Q. — What would be the cost to 
put them in? 



A. — About 75 cents; that is, laid 
in the track. 

Q. — What would the pine ties 
cost? 

A. — About 45 cents to put them in 
the track. 

Q. — You are referring to sap ties, 
are you not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — The life of sap ties is very 
short? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever figure on the 
cost of creosoted pine ties? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many (bridges on the 
line, did you say? 

A. — About sixteen. 

Q. — What is the condition of the 
piling under those bridges? 

A. — They are bad. 

Q. — In coming over the line yes- 
terday, Mr. Stubblefield, we stopped 
at two larger bridges. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — The first one was over the 
Nachez? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And the second one? 

A. — Tailes Creek. 

Q. — What would it cost in your 
judgment to put in the necessary 
permanent piling and place each of 
those two long bridges in first class 
shape; that is, the one across the 
Nachez River and the one across 
Tailes Creek? What would it cost to 
put them in first class condition? 

A. — They would have to be remov- 
ed entirely. 

Q. — Can you give us an estimate 
of what it would cost? 

A. — About thirty-five or forty 
thousand dollars apiece. 

Q. — What engine and cars have 
you owned by the State? 

A. — We have only one serviceable 
engine. 

Q. — That has just been repaired, 
has it not? 

A. — Yes, sir. We had it repaired 
last December. 

Q. — It cost us about $3,000.00 on 
repairs on that engine last year? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is it an old engine? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is the condition of the 
boiler? 

A. — The boiler inspection is made 
by the master mechanic, and is pro- 
nounced good on No. 6. 

Q. — That is the only engine in 
reasonable repair? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



192 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Have you any other rolling 
stock? 

A. — Yes, sir; we have some flat 
cars and three locals. 

Q. — About how many flat cars have 
you? 

A. — We have lots of them not in 
service, but I think we carry in the 
inventory about 3 5 or 40 of them, 
including the bridge gang and sec- 
tion gang. 

Q. — How many have you that are 
actually available for use? 

A. — I judge, counting the wood 
cars, about ten. 

Q, — Have we any box cars avail- 
able for freight? 

A. — We have two cars for local 
service. 

Q. — For traffic on the line going 
to other lines, we have none? 

A. — We have none at all. 

Q. — We have to either pay mileage 
or per diem for the use of freight 
cars to accomodate the traffic of the 
State railroad? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What do you pay per day for 
the use of cars? 

A. — Forty-five cents per day. 

Q. — When does the per diem end 
on any particular car? 

A. — It begins on the day we re- 
ceive it and ends on the day we re- 
turn it. 

Q. — What per diem do we pay? 

A. — Forty-five cents per day, and 
includes holidays and Sundays. 

Q. — What would be the average 
cost of such cars, as received from 
the other roads, to purchase? 

A. — Between $750.00 and $800.00. 
It depends whether or not it has 
steel trucks. 

Q. — What would it cost to equip 
this railroad with reasonable neces- 
sary rolling stock? I mean, equip it 
for business, including your passen- 
ger choaches? 

A. — I figure we ought to buy two 
coaches that would answer our pur- 
pose for $4,500.00. 

Q. — $4,500.00 each? 

A. — No, Sir; for the two. 

Q. — And you ought to buy how 
many engines? 

A. — One engine anyway. 

Q. — What would that cost? 

A. — About twelve thousand dol- 
lars. 

Q.— What engine is this you are 
using now? 

A. — I. & G. N. 

Q. — What are we paying for that? 

A. — $10.00 per day. 



Q. — What kind of labor do you 
use on the trains? 

A. — Free labor. 

Q. — What kind of labor do you use 
on the tracks? 

A. — Free labor. 

Q. — In your opinion, is free labor 
more economical than convicts labor 
for the ordinary track work? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Convict labor could not be 
used economically except with large 
gangs? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you include in your estim- 
ate it would be $175,000.00 to $200,- 
000.00, did you include in that the 
purchase of extra engines and cars? 

A. — No, sir; that was for equip- 
ment. 

Q. — In addition to the $175,000.00 
to $200,000.00 what would it cost us 
in round numbers for this equip- 
ment? 

A. — Between $45,000.00 and $50,- 
000.00. 

Q._ When you say $175,000.00 to 
$200,000.00 for the road, you mean the 
maximum to put the road in shape? 

A. — (No response). 

Q. — The committee understands it 
will take about $250,000.00 to put it 
up to railroad standard. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What are your prospects for 
revenue on the line? 

A. — We have about three saw mills 
on the line now. Now outside of 
lumber there is not much prospects 
of revenue except feed stuff and such 
local stuff as parties living on the 
line will give us. 

Q. — Could you give the committee 
an idea about how much that rev- 
enue would amount to? I mean, tak- 
ing everything into consideration — 
all the business of the line, can you 
see any certain prospects for the 
future? 

A. — Our total revenue runs between 
$2,400.00 and $3,000.00 per month. 

Q — That would be about $36,000.00 
for gross revenue? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Including passenger receipts 
also? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is there any net revenue' at 
present? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — To the contrary, there is a loss 
of about how much? 

A. — About $300.00 or $400.00 per 
month. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



193 



of the 



interest 



Q. — Exclusive 
charges ? 

A. — Yes. sir. 

Q. — Including the interest charge 
the net los on the road is something 
like $800.00 per month? 

A.— Between $700.00 and $800.00 per 
month. If we could operate this road 
under better conditions we might be 
able to cut this down some. 

Q. — If these improvements, ap- 
proximating $250,000, were to be 
provided, what would be the natural 
life of these improvements? 

A. — Those bridges ought to stand 
seven or eight years if they were put 
up in a first class manner and used 
first class timber. 

.Q — -Allowing ten years — would that 
be a liberal allowance? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — If it cost about $250,000.00 to 
put this railroad in good condition, 
we would figure on it costing $25,- 
000.00 per year, if it had to be re- 
newed in ten years? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you see enough revenue in 
the road that would justify putting 
it in first class condition? 
A. — No, sir ; I do not. 
Q. — Are you familiar with the 
country between here and the Pales- 
tine terminal of the road? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Has the agricultural resources 
oi the country been developed? 
A. — No. sir. 

Q. — It is a timbered country, is it 
not? 

A. — Yes. sir. 

Q. — Who owns the bulk of the im- 
ber? 

A. — I think the largest timber tract 
is owned by the Southern Pine Lum- 
ber Co. 

Q. — Bid the owners of these lands 
contribute by bonus or otherwise in 
putting this road through this 
country? 

A. — I don't know. That was before 
my time. 

Q. — You don't know then whether 
or not there was any bonus given by 
the owners of the land between Rnsk 
and Palestine? 
A.— No. sir. 

Q. — Do you know if the lands have 
enhanced in value because of the 
construction of the railroads? 
A. — Yes, sir: I think -<». 
Q. — Now taking an estimate of 
$200,000.00 to put the roadbed in pro- 
per repair, and $50,000.00 for equip- 
ment, making a total of $250,000.00. 



and these items having all to be re- 
newed again during a period of ten 
years, which you say is a very lib- 
eral allowance? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — -It means that we will be up 
against an expenditure of $25,00.00 per 
year? 

A. — Yes. sir. 

Q. — But your ties will rot and the 
timbers will decay just the same? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you see any daylight 
through this proposition as to rev- 
enue so far as the State is concerned? 
A.— No, sir. 

Q. — What would it cost to tear up 
the railroad, using convict labor? 

A. — I could not say approximately ; 
not much, however. 

Q. — The rails are in good condition, 
are they not? 
A. — Yes. sir. 

Q.— Are the ties and timbers of 
much value? 

A. — They are of no value. 
Q. — I would not like to ask you the 
question as to whether or not it would 
be a good investment to tear up the 
railroad rather than enter into an ex- 
penditure of $250,000.00 which would 
have to be renewed during the next 
ten years, but if you feel like sug- 
gesting an opinion, we would like to 
have it. 

A. — Well, I would not like to say. 
Q. — You would not like to own the 
road as an individual property? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — The same thing ought to ap- 
ply to the State the same as an in- 
dividual ? 

A. — Yes, sir ; it should. 
Q. — The revenue from the road, as 
it is now, represents a loss, including 
the interest, from $700.00 to $800.00 
per month? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many saw mills on the 
line? 

A. — Two. There will be practically 
four. 

Q. — Yon don't know of any new 
mills? 
A.— One. 

Q. — You don't know the value of the 
steel rails? 

A. — They are new rails that were 
laid down here, about $30.00 or $35.00 
per ton. 

Q. — In arriving at the gross expense 
of operating the railroad, do you in- 
clude the convict labor charged 
against the railroad here at Pusk? 
A. — Yes. sir: that is charged to us. 



194 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — How much is charged? 

A. — Whatever pleases the master 
mechanic. 

Q. — But the last two years there has 
been between $8,000.00 and $10,000.00 
charged against the railroad, exclu- 
sive of the night watchman. Do you 
think this charge excessive against 
the railroad? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How much would you consider 
it excessive? 

A. — About 50 per cent. 50 per cent, 
at least. 

Q. — By charging an excessive 
amount against the railroad it re- 
duces the charge against the peniten- 
tiary system itself, does it not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — So under that system, the peni- 
tentiary is benefitted 50 per cent, of 
the charges against the railroad? 

A. — Yes, sir. We have no store 
rooms, and we have no way of de- 
termining the bill. 

Q. — And you thinK it about 50 per 
cent, excessive? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Could you have the repairs done 
for this road by other machine shops 
besides Busk? 

A. — Yes, sir ; and they guarantee 
their work. 

Q- — Do you pay free labor current 
or railroad prices? 

A. — No, sir ; we pay the engineer 
$110.00. 

Q.- — How" much do you pay the con- 
ductor? 

A.— $100.00; the fireman $75.00; 
brakemen $65.00 and auditor $100.00. 

Q. — What is your own salary? 

A. — $150.00; the auditor's clerk 
$45.00; the Palestine agent $80.00 and 
he has a boy over there at $25.00. The 
agent at Madelle gets $45.00. At 
Busk we use a joint agent witn the 
T. & N. O. We are supposed to pay 
him $50.00, but have not paid him 
anything yet. 

Q. — When you have any traffic on 
the State road, what arrangements 
have you for getting cars for the 
State road? 

A. — If it goes by the I. <& L.- N. 
we make requisition for a car, and 
it is the same way with the Cotton 
Belt. 

Q. — Could you give the Committee 
an average division of the traffic 
charges? 

A. — On logs going to the I. & G. N 
we get five cents per hundred pounds. 

Q. — What per cent, of the average 
g'ross charge is that? 



A. — That would vary. About 25 per 
cent. I would say. 

Q. — Now, what other traffic origi- 
nates along the line? 

A. — Lumber and wood and mines, 
and some little cotton. 

Q. — Do you ever ship a carload of 
cotton? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Has there ever been a car load 
of cotton grown on the line? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you shipped any vegeta- 
bles on the line? 

A. — Last year we shipped 62 cars 
of tomatoes and peaches, and such as 
that. 

Q. — How much a car do you get out 
of that? 

A. — Fifteen per cent of the 
through rate. 

Q. — If the rate is to North Texas 
we get fifteen per cent? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Our mileage being thirty-two 
miles, it is so short that our per cent, 
of the long haul would necessarily 
be very small? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And out of our per cent, of those 
charges we have got to pay 45 cents 
per day rent on those cars? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And that reduces our earnings 
that much? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — When it comes to a business in- 
vestment of this kind, the proof of 
the pudding is certainly the eating? 

A. — It certainly is. 

Q. — How long has this road been 
in operation? 

A. — It was built in 1908 or 1909. 
Part of it has been built a long time, 
but the new part of the line in 1908. 

Q. — How long has it been losing 
money? 

A. — I presume ever since it was 
built. 

Q. — You have no promise by any of 
these timber owners to cut their tim- 
ber soon so we could anticipate some 
early business? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Could you tell us how much 
money the State has sunk in the rail- 
road up to date? 

A. — I can get it from the books 
over there, but can't tell you off- 
hand. 

Q. — If $250,000.00, as you suggest, or 
whatever the amount necessary, was 
put in the rehabilitation of this rail- 
road, with your knowledge of condi- 
tions, and the development of the 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



195 



country, taking- into consideration 
your judgment it would have to be 
replaced in ten years time can you 
see the possibility of any traffic de- 
velopments along this line enough to 
justify, this expenditure? 

A. — No. sir. The only thing I can 
see would be to sell it. 

Q. — Do you know of anybody who 
wants it? 

A. — No. sir ; I do not. 

Q. — As a rule the people don't pay 
the State for property any more than 
they have to? 

A. — I don't think they do. 

Q. — You don't think it would take 
any great amount of money to tear 
the road up and load the steel on 
cars? 

A. — No. sir. 

Q. — And the ties and bridge timber 
are of very little value? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — They would not be worth mov- 
ing, and would not sell for anything? 

A. — No. sir. 

Q. — They are not of any value now 
because if we keep the road they will 
have to be removed and others put in? 

A. — No. sir. 

Q. — If this smelter gets in opera- 
tion, is it your understanding the 
State road would get any part of that 
traffic? 

A. — The State would have to get it. 
This is a local point. 

Q. — This road is under the operation 
of the Kailroad Commission so far 
as rates are concerned? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Sow far is it from here to 
Rusk? 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — You would only get switching 
charges ? 

A. — Yes, sir ; we would get a rate. 
Our rate is all Texas points, or any 
other points. ' 

Q. — What railroads are now enter- 
ing Rusk ? 

A.— Three. The T. & N. O. and Cot- 
ton Belt and Texas State. 

Q. — It being only a mile to the 
smelter, do you think it would be 
very long that you could Keep out the 
other roads? 

A. — They could not get in here, I 
don't think. 

Q. — They would not get any part of 
this traffic? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How long have you been in the 
railroad business? 

A. — I was with the Katy two years ; 
Railroad Commission about six years, 



and with the Santa Fe railroad two 
years. 

Mr. Tillotson at this time requests 
that statement be prepared showing 
the entire cost of the State railroad, 
also asks that Mr. Stubblefield file 
with the committee itemized state-: 
ment of the employees salaries. Mr. 
Stubblefield states': When I first 
came over our Auditor quit, and I am 
now about the only man who has 
stayed with the State Railroad, but I 
think we- have a first class auditor 
with the company now, and think 
it will not be long until we will have 
the records in first class shape. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — Has there ever to your knowl- 
edge been any proposition from any 
other roads, or parties, wanting to 
lease the State Railroad? 

A. — Nothing tangible. One report- 
ed about six weeks ago they might be 
interested in buying it. I saw Mr. 
Combs about it, and he said the most 
serious objections was in regards to 
the grades and condition of the 
bridges, and while I was in the Com- 
mission, we advertized trying to sell, 
or lease, the road. We got several 
propositions trying to buy the steel. 

Q. — You think there is no proba- 
bility of making any disposition of the 
property? 

Q. — I believe you made a state- 
ment regarding the teritory between 
Rusk and Palestine. Do you think in 
the ordinary course of events there is 
a probability of this territory con- 
tributing materially to the support 
of the road with an increase of freight 
in the near future? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the State 
lands owned near the railroad between 
Rusk and Palestine? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you know if there is any 
valuable timber on it or not? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Mr. ^Humphreys : 

Q. — The Audit made in February, 
1910, shows the total cost of the road 
to have been $530,382.00. Now on the 
books dated December 31st, 1912, the 
road is charged with the general ac- 
count, $91,070.00. Does that account, 
if you know, represent advances made 
in the way of equipment purchased 
or labor furnished ; or in other words, 
do you know what that accounts for? 

A. — No, sir ; don't know ; though I 
know it does not include equipment 
as we have bought no equipment. 



196 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Now this same account, dated 
January 20th, 1911, for $41,400.00. 
Twenty months later, December 31st, 
1912, it is $91,070.00, which is a dif- 
ference in twenty months operation 
of $50,000.00? 

A. Now that accounts, as I under- 
stand it, includes every purchase made 
for ties, betterments, repairs for the 
engine. 

Q. — In other words, they have lost 
that much? 

A. — It is not from an operating 1 
standpoint. It is for maintenance of 
the track, etc. 

Q. — Is the condition of the road as 
good now as it was when this esti- 
mate was made, February, 1910? 

A. — I did not see the road then, 
as last year was the first time I saw 
it. Now, last year we did a lot of 
ditching ; getting it out of the mud 
and strengthening our bridges. 

Q. — You don't think this $50,000.00 
in the twenty months operation has 
been a total loss? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q.— You think some of the $50,000.00 
is represented by betterments or im- 
provements ? 

A. — Yes, sir. I think the labor 
charges have been excessive. We 
never get a cent for scraps, etc. 

Q. — You think the system of ac- 
counting between the penitentiary 
and the railroad has not been fair 
to the railroad? 

A. — No, sir. For instance, we had 
a charge of $1,800.00, and I think we 
could have got this work done a great 
deal cheaper on the outside. 

Q. — In other words, if you were al- 
lowed to purchase your equipment 
outside the penitentiary system, the 
railroad would make a better show- 
ing? 

A. — Yes, sir ; and we would get bet- 
ter serivce. 

Q. — Now this audit made in Feb- 
ruary, 1910, shows the total cost of 
this road to be $530,382. According 
to the books of the penitentiary sys- 
tem, since that time to December 31, 
1912, there had been a loss from 
operations of $91,000.00. Now figur- 
ing that at five per cent, interest on 
the $530,382.00, could you give us the 
cost of the road to February, 1913? 

A. — -(No response.) 

Q. — What we are interested in is 
finding the cost to the penitentiary 
system? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.— If it would cost $600,000.00 
down to February 1st, 1913, and if 



there was $91,000.00 against it in the 
way of accounts, it would cost the 
system approximately $700,000.00 
down to the present time? 

A. — We can give you that exactly 
since February 1st, 19 1 1,— exactly 
what we have spent — that is, since 
the present Commission took charge 
of the road. 

Q. — What it the attitude of the 
shipping public, or traveling public, 
toward this road, and at each termi- 
nus? 

A. — I think Rusk could give more 
carload business than they have, 
though some of the merchants here 
have been very friendly to us. One 
reason the merchants do not like to 
patronize our road is on account of 
the damage suits. In case a car is 
wrecked, they can not sue for dam- 
ages unless they have permission 
from the Legislature. 



TUESDAY, MAY 6th, 1913, AT RUSK, 
TEXAS. 

Testimony of W. H. Lewis. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy : 

Q. — Give your name in full to the 
Secretary? 

A.— W. H. Lewis. 

Q. — Are you connected with the pris- 
on system ? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q.— Were you ever connected with 
the prison system? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever handle any ore for 
them? 

A. — Not directly. I had charge of 
the repair work on the ore beds and 
the track work. 

Q. — You never had the actual hand- 
ling of the men getting the ore out? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Are you pretty familiar with 
this ore here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is the ore found in pockets, or 
generally over the country? 

A. — It is found in layers. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the State 
lands ? 

A.— The}' own about 1,200 acres. 

Q. — What per cent, of that contains 
ore? 

A. — I understand it all contains ore. 

Q.— But you have never had charge 
of the actual blasting out of the ore? 

A. — No, sir. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



19^ 



Q. — Have you had anything to do 
with the uncovering- of the earth over 
the ore? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Could you tell the Committee 
what it cost to get out the ore? 

A. — Ninety cents. 

Q. — What do you base this on? 

A. — I base it on the actual cost of 
labor, material, and bringing it in, 
and the labor connected with it in 
every way. 

Q. — How much do you allow for con- 
vict labor? 

A. — One dollar per day. 

Q. — And allowing $1.00, per day 
you think you can get it out at 90 
cents? 

A. — We did do it. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 

Q. — When was this work done? 

A. — 1907, 1908 and 1909. 

Q. — You were connected with the 
furnace at that time? 

A. — I was master mechanic of the 
prison. 

Q. — You figured the labor at $1.00 
per day, and you considered it cost 
90 cents per ton delivered at the 
prison? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you connected with the 
furnace now? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Have you any suggestions to 
make in reference to mining this 
ore that would reduce the cost of it 
laid down? 

A. — I think it ought to cost 50 per 
cent less than it ever did. 

Q. — Can you explain how that is? 

A. — In the first place, I would 
place a steam shovel on the hill, and 
pick up the dirt and lay the dirt out 
of the way, and I would then run 
my track out and load the ore right 
in my car, and as you take the ore 
out move the shovel and fill the dirt 
back in the hole. 

Q. — Can you load the ore with that 
machinery also? 

A. — Yes, sir; we can load with the 
same shovel. 

Q. — How many men would it take 
to operate one of these shovels? 

A. — About eight, successfully. 

Q. — About how many tons do you 
estimate they can strip and load in 
one day? 

A. — We have loaded about ninety 
cars of dirt per day, and that would 
be something like 1,100 yards. We 
loaded that on cars, run it a couple 



of miles and unloaded it, and then 
came back and loaded it again. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the av- 
erage depth of the dirt covering the 
ore? 

A. — Yes, sir; on these beds here 
it is about five feet deep. 

Q. — It will not exceed five feet? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — With a steam shovel how 
much do you estimate it would cost 
per yard to move the dirt? 

A. — You could move it with a 
steam shovel for about 3 cents, and 
you could load it for about the same 
money. It would cost about as much 
to load the ore as it would to move 
the dirt. 

Q. — What would the cost of the 
equipment be — steam shovel, outfit 
and everything? 

A. — The State already owns a 
steam shovel over here, but it needs 
some repairs on it of $800.00 or 
$850.00. 

Q. — You think then for the expen- 
diture of $1,000.00 you can equip 
a steam shovel for operation on the 
ore beds? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would there be any economy 
in loading with steam shovels alone? 

A. — The matter of deposit is such 
that you can run a track right into 
the fields* and I should say the 
grades are something like three de- 
grees to the top of the ore field. 

Q. — And the engineers estimated 
the land contains about 6,000 tons 
to the acre. Did you accompany the 
engineer when he made any of these 
tests? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How do you regard the esti- 
mate of the engineer? 

A. — He was very conservative. 

Q. — Under the present contract, 
would it be your suggestion that the 
State find it more profitable to mine 
and deliver the ore? 

A. — It is owing to the price. 

Q. — They get $1.00 per ton deliv- 
ered, or 75 cents mined on the 
ground, or five cents in the field un- 
| mined. Which would be the better 
[part of this contract? 

A. — Well, with the abundance of 
labor the prison has got it would be 
better to mine it and deliver it at the 
furnace. 

Q. — Does not the price of five* 
cents per ton seem very small for it? 

A. — Yes, sir. The average price 
paid here is fifteen cents in the 
ground. 






198 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — And your inference from that 
would be the rate claimed in the con- 
tract would naturally compel the 
State to deliver the ore in order to 
get a fair price for the products. 
Would that be your conclusions? 

A. — I think so. Of course, the ore 
is not worth anything unless the 
plant is running, but five cents would 
be very little amount for ore. 

Q. — Do you understand the State 
made especially low prices as an 
inducement to get parties to operate 
the plant? 

A. — I did not know they had any 
such contract. My understanding 
was the State had to deliver it at the 
furnace at $1.00 per ton. 

Q. — Would you, having the track 
or facilities for making the track, 
would you mine it and deliver it at 
$1.00 per ton, or would you build 
the track out there and mine it, let- 
ting the purchasers^ load it and pull 
it in at 75 cents? 

A. — I would deliver it to the fur- 
nace at $1.00 per ton. 

Q. — You state you could load it at 
three cents per ton with a shovel? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What kind of labor would you 
use there? 

A. — Mixed crowds. Negroes, whites 
and Mexicans. 

Q. — Can you get as much work out 
of convicts now as you could then? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Mr. Lewis, what do you con- 
sider the difference of efficiency of 
convict labor now and at the time 
you worked there before? 

A. — About one-half. 

Q. — Will you state why you state 
that? 

A. — About that time they left here 
at sunup and got out and worked un- 
til about 11 o'clock; went to work at 
2 and tried to make it in at sun- 
down. Now they leave at 7 o'clock 
and go to work at 8, and work until 
12 o'clock, and after dinner they 
work until about 5 o'clock in the 
evening and lose an hour in coming 
back here. 

Q. — They are not so good as to 
discipline? 

A. — Yes, sir; a great many of the 
men will work well. 

By Mr. Ben E. Cabell: 

Q. — You have handled or been 
around convicts a great deal. Have 
you ever whipped a convict? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you ever had trouble in 
getting work out of them? 



A. — No, sir. I don't think one 
man in a hundred is fit to work con- 
victs. In the first place, you have 
to win a convict's confidence if you 
are going to handle them, and they 
have to respect you and like you, 
and if you have a man in charge they 
don't like they can do more damage 
in one day than you can repair in 
thirty. 

Q. — Was that in the strapping 
days? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 

Q. — How many men did you work, 
and how long? 

A. — In January, 1906, and Febru- 
ary, this year. Sometimes I had 
charge of 100 men and sometimes it 
would be as low as 35 men. 

Q. — What would be your average? 

A. — About sixty men while I was 
there. 

Q. — Did you work them at the ore 
beds? 

A. — No, sir; my work was inside 
of the walls and not at the ore beds. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Are you familiar with this hill 
at the end of the track where -the 
ore is piled up? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many tons of ore would 
you estimate is piled up there? 

A. — The State had about 14,000 
tons. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 

Q. — Can you tell us something 
about the power plant; what it cost 
etc.? 

A. — It cost something like $28,- 
000.00. 

Q. — I believe you say the power 
you use cost about five cents per kil- 
lowat to generate it? 

A. — That is what they sold it at. 
In 1908 the City Power Plant burned 
down, and I recommended the con- 
tract now made with the citizens; 
they to pay a minimum of $160.0' 
per month, and when it went over 
the minimum they were to pay five 
cents per killowat. 

Q. — Do you regard this as a fair 
price? 

A. — Yes, sir; I consider it some- 
thing like a fair profit to the prison. 
I figured when I was here it costs 
$2.3 5 to $2.40 per killowat. Of 
course, we keep account of all lanor, 
fuel oil and everything used. 

By Mr. Ben E. Cabell: 

Q. — You and Mr. Nach made an in- 
vestigation as to what this power 
cost? 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



199 



A. — Yes, sir; it cost about $2.35 or 
$2.40. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — What do you include in this 
cost? 

A. — I included everything charged; 
convict labor, fuel, cost of power 
house, in fact, every nickel that was 
charged against the power plant. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — You are familiar with the 
power furnished the box factory? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you state if there is a 
greater expense than there should be? 

A. — I don't know what rate they 
art charging now, but I think when 
T was out here they were charging 
four cents per killowat. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — How does that compare as to 
additional cost, when they had all 
steam power 9 

A. — They ought to use the steam 
power. 

Q. — What difference ought they to 
have per month if it was operated 
'with steam power? 

A. — $175.00 per month. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — What would it cost to equip 
the box factory to do that? How 
much additional investment would it 
require? 

A. — If they have the equipment on 
the ground that was here when I left 
it would be the expense of fitting th e 
boilers and the engines and buying 
the belts. That was an 80 horse 
power Corliss that had been thor- 
oughly overhauled. 

By Mr. Ben E. Cabell: 

Q. — There was something said to 
Mr. Barton about $100,000.00 ap- 
propriated to the plant. Do you 
know anything about this? 

A. — That was in 1909. 

Q. — Will you explain it in your 
own way? Mr. Barton said it was 
used. 

A. — The Legislature made an ap- 
propriation of $100,000.00 to repair 
the equipment and operate the fur- 
nace. They spent about $40,000.00 
for getting things in shape. They 
started up and ran either 4 8 or 49 
days. They bought their coke for 
six months, and it was coming in 
here, and they had 2,900 tons in tne 
yards here when they closed down. 
This coke cost them $6.30 per ton 
laid down here. They spent some- 
thing like $50,000.00 in the opera- 
tion; paid out that much money 



while in operation and they owed 
about $20,000.00, which left chem 
some $25,000.00, and I don't know 
what ever became of that. The State 
Railroad burnt up the coke. 

Q. — How many tons of coke did 
they burn up they did not charge to 
operations, to your knowledge? 

A. — 1,300 tons. I asked Mr. Bar- 
ton if I was to make a charge, and 
he said no. During Mr. Barton's 
time we charged actual cost of labor 
and the material without any over- 
head expense. 



TUESDAY, MAY 6, 1913, AT RUSK, 
TEXAS. 

Testimony of Mr. J. B. Long. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Give the secretary your full 
name. 

A. — John B. Long. 

Q. — What position do you hold? 

A. — Representative of this county' 
to the Legislature. 

Q. — I will ask you to state in your" 
own way your observation? of the 
prison plant here at Rusk, including 
the railroad, the causes of the diffi- 
culties, and why it is such an expen- 
sive proposition, and you might altfo 
state in that connection your views 
regarding the ore fields here in con- 
nection with the prison. 

A. — In the first place, the peniten- 
tiary was located here for the pur- 
pose of developing the iron interests 
of Texas. No special, or specialty 
test has ever been made from the 
commencement to the present time. 
I mean no continued test has been 
applied. The running of it has had 
less business manifested in it than 
you would find in the other institu- 
tions of the State. I am stating these 
things considering the way I look at 
it. There has been too much com- 
mercialism in the way of politics to 
permit it to bring the results for 
which it was established. These be- 
ing business matters, it ought to be 
a success, and it must necessarily be 
conducted along business lines. 

Q. — Do you think political man- 
agement can succeed against individ- 
ual competition? 

A. — It cannot succeed. 

Q. — I quite agree with you. 

A. — When this business was being 
conducted in a business way, as it 
was attempted, time and again the 
policy of the prison management, or 



200 



Report and Findings of 



someone else, would stop the industry 
here and take the men out and carry 
them somewhere else for other pur- 
poses. • 

It is not worth while for me to go 
into details on that, but they would 
shut either the furnace or the smel- 
ter down. Their other industries 
connected with it has been treated 
the same way, and it is not charge- 
able to the present administration 
any more than some behind it. Now, 
as to the conducting of the ore bus- 
iness, so far as the ore beds are con- 
cerned, I don't know much about it. 
I have never given much attention 
to it, only see in the papers the con- 
tracts for furnishing the ore. It 
seems to me it would be a paying 
matter to the State to furnish the 
ore. It might in time. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — You mean the present con- 
tract? 

A. — Yes, sir; the present contract. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Are you familiar with the con- 
tracts? 

A. — No, sir; only giving it as my 
judgment. As to the railroad, 1 
don't hardly know where to begin 
with that. It has been a charge on 
the State from the beginning. It has 
not had the business in it that ought 
to have been there, but the railroad 
is evidently getting in better shape 
so far as public opinion is concerned, 
and so far as the development, or re- 
sources, on the road, it shows a dif- 
ference between last year and this 
year of over 5 per cent, in ship- 
ments of carloads of fruits, vege- 
tables, etc. Then the expense to 
which the railroad has been put to 
is a shame. It has to hire its en- 
gines, cars, and pay for the use of 
them all the time. The cars the State 
has here will not be received by the 
other roads. Well, you take the ex- 
penses that are attached to that little 
line of $10.00 to $12.00 per day and 
it amounts up to the hiring of those 
cars to the amount of about $3,000.00 
per month. 

Q. — Was that difference in favor 
or against the old engines? 

A. — Against them, and you take 
the interest being paid on the rail- 
road and it puts a dark cloud over 
the railroad interests. So far as th6 
future of the railroad is concerned, 
it is as good as anything we have. 
I don't believe any man contemplates 
it being a paying proposition for some 



time, but the feature of that railroad 
is if the State continues its business 
here in the way of the iron industry, 
it will get the benefit as the ship- 
ments come on in time, as the State 
will get the greater part, or all of 
it, over the road. If it is not put up 
in running condition and we have to 
make contracts, then we are in diffi- 
culty again. The merchants of our 
town, in conversation with them, are 
perfectly willing to furnish the rail- 
road with all they can possibly do 
if they put it in running order. The 
merchants have no assurance their 
shipments will get to Palestine if it 
is Palestine freight, and while these 
things are discouraging, they put a 
bad side to the conditions. Now, I 
don't believe it to the best interest 
of the State to sell the railroad if 
they are going to continue the busi- 
ness of the ore fields of this peniten- 
tiary system, and if you sell the rail- 
road it would be better to sell the 
iron ore where it is. Somebody 
would buy the road and buy the iron 
if taken that way, and I believe the 
Cotton Belt or I. & G. N. Railroad 
will buy it when the State gets ready 
to give it away. As a matter of 
course, the whole penitentiary sys- 
tem, including the railroad, is a 
problem that is going to be hard to 
settle by this committee or even by 
the whole people of Texas. Senator 
Jno. G. Willacy states that the Com- 
mittee has no authority to make set- 
tlements of these problems. 

By L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Have you any general observa- 
tions to make as to what you think 
should be the policy of the manage- 
ment of the penitentiary system in 
the future? I will say this, Mr. Long, 
that perhaps you have had a long, 
continuous experience in a general 
way with the operations of value to 
the Committee. What lines would 
you suggest? I leave that to your 
own conclusions. You doubtless have 
conclusions in mind from things 
which have occurred, and you may 
have some ideas as to what would be 
valuable for the future. 

A. — Well, that opens a wide field. 
For example, the manufacturing side 
of the penitentiary management. 

Q. — You have observed that very 
carefully, I think, throughout? 

A. — Yes, sir. Taking the interest 
involved here so far as the iron in- 
dustry is concerned, and which has 
been the chief thing. You cannot in 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



101 



one, two or three years develop a line 
of business out of which the State 
can get a profit, and unless there is 
a procedure put on foot in which 
there will be a continued effort on 
certain lines, you might as well shut 
down. In other words, arrangements 
have to be made in a business way 
for selling the iron; either in the 
manufactured product or pig iron, 
and it has been the case that when 
the State wanted to sell the pig iron 
the market -was against the State. As 
long as the State has this in charge 
it is at least business policy to look 
out for these things three or four 
years in advance, and I have known 
financial agents to have to slip off 
when an order was made from some 
St. Louis man, and if the State gets 
a system of selling their ore products 
on the market, then she will gain a 
foothold, and which will govern very 
largely the profit the State will make. 
The Iron Trusts are together and — 

Q. — Did I understand you to say 
the purpose of establishing the peni- 
tentiary at Rusk was to develop the 
iron industry at Rusk? 

A. — I said in Texas. 

Q. — When was it established? 

A. — About 1884. 

Q. — Prom your observations, has 
there been any two administrations 
since then in which the business at- 
titude toward the Rusk penitentiary 
has been the same? 

A. — No, sir; that is the trouble 
about some of the things today; the 
coming in of men who show the er- 
rors of those going out. 
- Q. — Then I would like to ask you 
this one question: Is there any good 
business judgment on the part of the 
State of Texas to have the peniten- 
tiary system engage in any single 
industry, or any class of industries, 
that depend absolutely on the con- 
tinuity of a business policy, and I 
would like to ask this further ques- 
tion in the same connection: Is 
there today, or has there been, a 
manufacturing industry in Rusk 
that could live and show a profit un- 
der those conditions? 

A. — Not one, and I don't think it 
could be done anywhere else pursued 
under these lines. 

Q. — Do you believe there are any 
industries now being conducted at 
Rusk that promise any greater meas- 
ure of success than those conducted 
here before? 

A. — That depends entirely on what 
is done in the future. I have known 



them in the middle of a run to shut 
down and send the prisoners to the 
farms to cut cane, and things like 
that. I don't think any State institu- 
tion will materially affect local in- 
dustries by coming into competition. 
I don't believe they are materially 
injured, and it is my opinion it is to 
the best interests of the State to put 
the men inside the walls and give 
them something to do, and some line 
of industry should be established by 
which they could be kept and come 
as near to paying a profit as possi- 
ble. I believe when we come to 
make profits out of it we are mak- 
ing mistakes. We ought to run this 
institution and make a good busi- 
ness per cent profit. Now, it is just 
as ridiculous along this line; we em- 
ploy a chaplain to be in there and 
preach to them, and we employ an 
officer who does not know anything 
about spirituality or mentality to 
guard them, and who is in the way 
of the chaplain and in the way of the 
reformation designed by the law. I 
do not know of any individual my 
remarks apply to. I am talking about 
the system. We want a great and 
clean moral business reputation un- 
derlying our procedure. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Mr. Long, do you know what 
this smelter plant and foundry cost? 

A. — No, sir, I don't know. 

Q. — It was a very expensive plant? 

A — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Could you conceive of any 
i man of ordinary judgment investing 
that much money, involving so much 
! — could you conceive of any intelli- 
gent man, I say, engaging in an in- 
j dustry of that kind where every oth- 
> er like plant must have its skilled 
labor, and yet undertake to operate 
i an industry of this kind with convict 
: labor which is drawn from all classes 
| of people, and who have had no train- 
!ing? It is an expensive plant and 
lit is very expensive in operation; the 
forms and the molds to make the 
1 nine are very expensive, but yet af- 
: ter all, it all depends on whether or 
not the men who are working know 
what they are doing. For instance, 
knowing we invested several hun- 
idred thousand dollars in the plant 
and are going to employ a certain 
number of men in one day, whether 
i they are competent or not, can it be 
made a profitable industry in compe- 
tition with an industry of like char- 
acter when they have trained men 



202 



Keport and Findings of 



where we have simply a training 
school, composed of convict em- 
ployes? 

A. — No, sir. The State has pursued 
a course of teaching and training in 
this foundry, and it has yielded good 
results, but it does not take many 
trained men in the foundry. Prison- 
ers are like we are; they learn; and 
in putting in their work their yield 
will become effective as they are 
trained to work at it. 

Q. — What effect does it have on 
the industry while they are being 
trained in that particular line of 
work? 

A. — When it comes to handling 
the manufactured products it takes 
more trained men than in the other, 
but where you run a smelter they are 
soon trained, and you would not have 
many untrained men. 

Q. — In every other industry of like 
character they pay high wages for 
tneir men because they are men who 
know what they are doing? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Considering the past record of 
the penitentiary system it would in- 
dicate that the different number of 
it s operations have been unproduct- 
ive in the past. Is it your judgment 
that the present treatment of the 
penitentiary problem should be along 
the lines of radical changes or reor- 
ganization of the entire system? 

A. — The radical changes have cost 
us a good deal of money already, but 
I think we should be slow in adopting 
methods if we expect to get profitable 
returns financially. In the condition 
we are in it rather puts a cloud over 
us as to future changes. However, 
there should be some steps taken to 
stop these leakages. My honest 
opinion, the best way to manage con- 
victs is to make arrangements to 
have them engaged inside the walls. 
I can find nothing favorable in my 
mind in putting them on farms to 
work. 

Q. — Do you think the negro can be 
utilized profitably inside the walls? 

A. — I don't think they could be 
put to much use inside the walls, but 
some farms might be able to 
them to some profit. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Are you familiar with 
farms at Rusk here? 

A. — Some. 

Q. — Do you think that the farms 
can be run at a profit? 



use 



the 



A. — They could probably break 
even. 

Q. — It would take good manage- 
ment, would it not? 

A. — Yes, sir. I was out there this 
spring, and they seemed to be doing 
some good work. 

Q. — When you go to running a 
farm, if you get vegetables, and feed 
the men on turnips, greens, roasting 
ears, and fruits, and keep up their 
health generally, I think the farm- 
ing department is entitled to some 
credit, and then the men are in bet- 
ter shape, and they are more willing 
to enter into the work with more to 
eat of that kind? 

A. — (No response). 

By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 

Q. — Mr. Long, you are familiar 
with the country through which this 
railroad travels? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You have lived in this coun- 
try all your life? 

A. — Yes, sir; born here. Lived 
here nearly seventy years. 

Q. — You made some suggestions 
as to the possibility of the develop- 
ment of the agricultural resources 
along this road. Do you think there 
is a possibility of improvement in 
traffic over that road? 

A. — I don't think there is a better 
place for the road in the country 
than along that line. 

Q. — Do you think it possible to 
ever make the road show a profit? 

A. — I think it can. If it is kept 
moving the developments on the line 
it will make it a rather reasonable 
paying institution, and we have in- 
creased out there over 50 per cent. 
Madelle is now a good town, and 
there are other stations on the line. 

Q. — Have you ever had any prac- 
ticable experience in connection with 
the railroad? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How does that country com- 
pare with the country along the I. 
& G. N.? 

A. — Very fair; some good land^ 
along the sides of that road. 



MONDAY, MAY 19, 1913, AT 
HOUSTON, TEXAS. 

Testimony of T. W. House. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
We have requested that you appear 
before us today for the purpose of 
giving us such information as you 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



203 



can regarding the past managements 
of the penitentiary system and in re- 
gard to some transactions of the sys- 
tem, and also to ask you ahout your 
ideas as to the best thing for the 
State to do in the future in order 
that we may make the penitentiary 
system as self-sustaining as possible, 
and at the same time maintain the 
humanitarian treatment of the pris- 
oners under the law. We are con- 
ducting this as an informal meeting, 
and we have requested you to meet 
us here as a counsellor and Senator 
Willacy will propound such questions 
to you as we would like for you to 
give us information on. 

Ry Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Please give the stenographer 
your full name? 

A. — Thomas W. House. 

Q. — Have you any of your own in- 
dividual lands leased to the State? 

"resent, none of my own 
individual lands. 

Q. — Have you in the past leased 
land to the State? 

A. — Not as a lease; no, sir. 

Q. — Did you in the past operate 
any of your lands with convict la- 
bor? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Under the regular convict 
lease system? 

A. — Yes. sir. We used to pay them 
wages. 

Q. — At so much per month? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — When did your lease expire? 

A. — Two years ago. 

Q. — That was after the present 
prison law went into effect? 

A. — Yes, sir; our lease expired 
then. 

Q. — Was it by the terms of the 
lease, or was it revoked? 

A. — No, sir; the lease expired. 

Q. — This is not your individual 
land? 

A. — No, sir; the Areola Sugar Mills 
Company. 

Q. — Have you been leasing any 
lands to the State since the lease 
contract expired? 

A. — I have the last two years. 

Q. — How much land have you 
leased to the State? 

A. — Last year we leased something 
like 3,100 acres, and this year about 
3,600 acres. 

Q. — What are the terms of those 
leases? 

A. — Last year they paid us $7.00 
per acre, and we furnished them the 
implements and mules and everything 



of that kind. They did the farming. 
That did not include the Sugar 
House. That was just the farming 
part of it. 

Q. — You furnished the tools and 
the mules? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What was that land planted 
in? 

A. — Cane, cotton and corn. 

Q. — Could you tell us the acreage 
in cane? 

A. — Well, last year there was about 
1,40 acres in cane. This year there 
is about 1,100 acres. 

Q. — What has been the result from 
the cane part of the farming indus- 
try, or otherwise? 

A. — It has not been profitable for 
the past two years. 

Q. — You are the manager of the 
Areola Sugar Mills Co.? 

* — Yes, sir; I have been the man- 
ager of the Areola Sugar Mills Co. 

Q. — Have you been grinding any 
cane except your own cane? 

A. — Yes, sir; last fall we ground 
the State's cane. 

Q. — Last year? 

A. — Yes, sir; that is, the Ramsey 
farm and part of the Imperial and 
the cane on the Areola farm. 

Q. — Upon what terms do the Areo- 
la Sugar Mills grind the State's cane? 

A. — The Commission leased the 
Sugar House, and we ran it jointly. 

Q. — What kind of labor did you 
use in the mill? 

A. — We ran the sugar house with 
free lab^r: outside of the carrier 
hands, which the State furnished. 

Q. — Did you have the management 
and control of this sugar house? 

A. — I did. 

Q. — Was there any agreed price 
you were to pay the State for its 
sugar cane? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you mind telling the 
[committee the price agreed upon? 

A. — They agreed to pay $3.85 per 

ton based on a purity test, and it is 

| every cent Y. C. sugar is worth as 

quoted by the New Orleans Sugar 

Exchange. 

Q. — About what would that aver- 
age? 

A. — About $3.50 or $3.51, or 
something like that last year. 

Q. — Was there any agreement by 
which the State was to receive pay 
for its cane before any profits were 
entered into by the State and the Ar- 
eola Sugar Mills Co.? 



204 



Report and Findings of 



A. — They were to receive one-half 
the profits of the mill. 

Q. — But in advance of any profit 
of the mill, the State, of course, was 
to be paid for its cane at the rate of 
8 5 cents? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — That was the first clain 
against the mill before any profits 
could be determined? 

A. — No, sir; that was what we pur- 
chased the cane for, and then we were 
to manufacture it, and they were to 
receive one-half the profit. 

Q. — What about the facilities for 
getting the cane from these several 
farms — the Ramsey and the Imperial 
— to the Areola Sugar Mills? I sup- 
pose the Areola Sugar Mills was lo- 
cated on the Areola lands. 

A. — We have a track connected 
with the Sugarland railroad — our 
own tracks. 

Q. — What is the length of your 
line? 

A. — About two and a half miles, 
and the transfer about one mile. 

Q. — Did you have anything to do 
with the charges to be paid the Su- 
garland Railroad? 

A. — We paid the charges. The 
State was to pay the transportation, 
and we charged it up. 

Q. — Was that a reasonable charge? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you remember what it was 
per ton? 

A. — I think it was 2 7 cents per 
ton. 

Q. — That was to go to the Sugar- 
land Railroad Company? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Then the Areola Sugar Com- 
pany line was to receive its charger 

A. — The Areola Sugar Company 
has its own engine, and we got the 
cars from the I. & G. N. railroad, and 
the actual expense we charged. 

Q. — Did you figure out per ton 
what it cost? 

A. — The engineer was paid about 
$90.00 per month, and what coal was 
burned was about the only charge. 
It was not much. 

Q. — You say the cultivation of cane 
has not been profitable the last two 
years? 

A. — No, sir; I have been interested 
in the cane business since 1872. 

Q. — You have been since when? 

A. — 1872. We had convicts in 
1875. 

Q. — Do you think raising sugar 
cane can be carried on profitably with 
free labor? 



A.— Well, no; not under the pres- 
ent tariff. Under the old tariff it 
could be raised profitably. It is go- 
ing to affect it under this tariff quite 
a good deal. 

Q.— ^But that is not the question of 
the last of profit in raising cane the 
last few years? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You say raising cane for the 
last two years was not profitable? 
What do you attribute this to? 

A. — It was owing to the drouth 
and the freeze. 

Q. — How about the preceding 
years? 

A. — They have made money. In 
1903 we made $96,000 net on sugar. 

Q. — Did you make that on your 
own crop? 

A. — No, sir; we bought a little 
cane, and that year we ground a lit- 
tle cane for the Ramsey farm, but 
the principal amount of the cane was 
raised on our own plantation. 

Q. — What would you consider to 
be the loss due to the freeze last year 
compared to the normal crop? 

A. — The freeze, of course, was 
quite a loss, and we were operating 
then on our own cane. That was the 
last we operated paying money for 
convicts. We had a contract with 
the State for one hundred and twen- 
ty-five men, and they reduced that 
and let them run dowo to seventy 
men, and we could not get the hands. 

Q. — Was that the worst freeze 
they have had in that territory? 

A. — Yes, sir; for years. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the Im- 
perial Sugar farm that was sold to 
the State? 

A. — I used to know the place when 
Col. Ellis owned it, but not since the 
State owned it. 

Q. — Could you tell us about the av- 
erage value of the crop raised on the 
Imperial farm? 

A. — No, sir; I could not tell you. 

Q. — What we are trying to reach is 
the probable loss caused by the freeze 
on that cane. 

A. — It is very difficult to get at 
owing to the cane not being weighed. 
It was just cut down; hauled out, and 
burned up. 

Q. — You say, Mr. House, the past 
year you have been operating the 
Sugar Mill with the prison commis- 
sion jointly? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And the State was to deliver 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



205 



its sugar cane on an agreed price per 
ton? 

A. — We only ground a very limited 
amount of tonnage. I think we 
ground 15,600 for the State, and 
there was 1,600 or 1,700 tons I 
bought outside of the State crop. 

Q. — How were the accounts kept 
between the Areola Sugar Mills and 
the State? Were they kept by the 
Areola Sugar Company? 

A. — We had no one representing 
the State outside the sergeant there. 
I think it was Capt. Worrell. He was 
on the place at the time. 

Q. — How did you arrive at the 
amount of tonnage of sugar cane de- 
livered to the Areola Sugar Mills 
Co.? 

A. — The State had a weigher and 
we had a weigher. 

Q- — The State had a weigner and 
you had a weigher both? 

A. — We also had a joint chemist. 
This was based on a 79 purity. 

Q. — How was this sugar sold that 
was produced at the Areola Sugar 
Mills? 

A. — The Areola Sugar Co. has been 
selling it, and it has a lot on hand 
now that belongs to the mill and the 
State jointly. We have something 
in the neighborhood of about 1,000,- 
000. That is all of it, and it is to 
be taken off next month. 

Q. — Now, in paying the State the 
agreed price per ton for its cane, was 
that to be paid when the sugar was 
sold?' 

A. — There was no agreement on 
that. It was to be credited up to 
them. They were to pay one-half 
the expenses of the mill for operating 
the plant, and they were to furnish 
the carrier men — about 24 convicts — 
which the sugar company must pa> 
$1.00 per day for. All inside the 
sugar house was free labor. 

Q. — Has the State been paid for 
all the cane delivered to the mill? 

A. — They have been credited with 
it. 

Q. — Did the State receive any pay- 
ment in cash at all for its cane? 

A. — No, sir; we still have the 
sugar on hand. 

Q. — Then final settlement will not 
be made until the sugar is sold? 

A. — No, sir; and this third sugar is 
worked out. We have probably 250,- 
000 pounds of third sugar, and it 
ought to make 80,000 gallons of 
Black Strap that has got to be dis- 
posed of. It has got to be dried out, 
which will be done next month. 



Q. — Have you made any estimate 
about how the State and the Areola 
Sugar Mills Co. will come out on 
this contract when you finally dis- 
pose of the products? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think the State 
made somewhere in the neighborhood 
of $24,000.00 or $26,000.00 on the 
operation. The State gets one-half 
of that. It will run from $24,000.00 
to $26,000.00, of which the State 
will get one-half. 

Q. — Have you any idea of what the 
State will receive on the final settle- 
ment for the cane sold by the State 
to the Areola Mills Co.? 

A. — They have been credited with 
about $3.50 or $3.51 per ton. The 
joint accounts have been made out 
on this basis, and rendered to the 
Commissioners. 

Q. — There has been no actual 
money paid on this account? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What I want to know, what 
will there be to pay the State for the 
cane delivered undeir the contract 
price? 

A. — There won't be anything due 
the State after the State pays its 
debts. The State has a note of about 
$12,000.00, and when they took 
charge of this place they purchased 
the corn and hay and stuff on hand 
for them to run it a year, and they 
gave their note for it, which note has 
not been taken up yet. 

Q. — Such sugar as you have sold 
has that been paid for up to date? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many acres of cane are 
they operating there? 

A. — About 1,100 acres this year. 
Q. — And you ground some cane 
from the Imperial and the Ramsey 
farms? 

A. — Yes, sir; about 5 700 tons 
from the Imperial and about 3,100 
tons from the Ramsey. Now, when 
we went into this arrangement we 
fully expected them to furnish the 
sugar mill at least 30,000 tons of 
cane. The capacity of the mill is 
about 45,000 tons during the season, 
and you understand it takes a cer- 
tain amount of cane to pay the ex- 
penses, and they only furnished us 
about 16,000 tons, and they reported 
to me they would send it to me from 
the Ramsey farm, or their manager 
did. I was requested to ask Col. 
South what he would ship us. This 
was in Septembe r He stated about 
10,000 tons. When he shipped it, 



206 



Report and Findings of 



he shipped us only 3,100 tons. The 
Imperial was to furnish about 5,000 
tons, and they shipped about 5,700 
tons, and it was their intention to 
mill part of it at Harlem, 

Q. — How many acres did tne state 
lease from the Areola people? 

A. — This year, or the previous 
year? 

Q. — The previous year. 

A. — 3 100 acres, and 3,600 acres 
this year; and they pay $7.00 per 
acre for it. They are only paying 
this year that amount for the cane 
land, and $5.00 per acre for the other 
land. 

Q. — Last year they paid $7.00 for 
the land? 

A. — Yes, sir; $7.00 all around, and 
they have an option to either take 
part of the crop and give us part of 
the crop, or money rent. 

Q. — This year? 

A. — This year and last year, too. 
Last year they were to give us no- 
tice on the 1st of August, and they 
notified us they would pay money 
rent for the crop last year. 

Q. — Did they pay that? 

A. — It is charged up to them in 
the operation of the sugar house. It 
amounted to about $21,000.00 or 
$21,700.00. 

Q. — They have received credit for 
the feed and corn and stuff of that 
kind. Could you give us a reasonable 
estimate of what the products on 
hand now ought to bring? 

A. — I should think about $50,- 
000.00 worth of stuff there yet after 
this third sugar is worked out. 

Q. — How much cotton was grown 
on this place? 

A. — They shipped 527 bales from 
that place. I think that was what 
it was. 

Q. — You don't know anything 
about how the cotton was sold at all? 

A. — I think it was shipped to 
Moodv at Galveston. I think he got 
it all. 

Q. — You have had a wide experi- 
ence in handling sugar plantations, 
and also handling convict labor. 
Would you mind stating to this com- 
mittee your opinion as to the opera- 
tions of this law, as to whether or 
not it is profitable? 

A. — I don't think it can be oper- 
ated under the present law to advan- 
tage. 

Q. — Have you paid any attention 
to the system of furnishing supplies 



by the State to the convicts operat- 
ing your lands? ♦ 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you know anything of the 
employees? 

A. — I know them all right; that is, 
the sergeants. They leased the place 
about sixteen months ago — two years 
the first of January — and they have 
had three sergeants down there. They 
first sent Captain Mills, and then 
changed to the Clemens farm, and 
then put in Captain Worrell, and 
then about the fifteenth of January 
they converted it into a white force, 
and sent Captain Cunningham with 
the white force, and he is there now. 

Q. — Would you mind stating to the 
committee if the sergeants are com- 
petent men who will take reasonable 
care of the State's interests? 

A. — Yes, sir. However, they are 
neglectful about their implements, 
and almost all of them are. They 
don't care about how they keep their 
implements, and they don't take care 
of them. 

Q. — Are they generally on the 
ground attending to their business? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now, Captain Mills 
was with me years ago and — 

Q. — When does your present con- 
tract with the State expire? 

A. — The first of January. 

Q. — Has there been any renewal? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Any agreement or option or 
offer to buy the Areola Sugar prop- 
erty by the State? 

A. — No, sir. At the beginning 
they did have an option, but they 
turned it down. 

Q. — What are lands reasonably 
worth in that neighborhood? 

A. — They have sold as high as 
$125.00 per acre, and have sold as 
low as $50.00 or $60.00. 

Q. — Would you mind stating to the 
committee, so far as you know, if 
there has been any favoritism shown 
to any of. its employees in your lo- 
cality? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you think the State's in- 
terests have been looked after? 

A. — Yes, sir, I think so. 

Q. — Can you tell about how much 
land each convict is operating on the 
Areola plantation? 

A. — About twelve or fourteen 
acres. 

Q. — About how much did they op- 
erate under the lease system? 

A. — About eighteen to twenty 
acres. You see, we worked part of 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



207 



that place with convict labor, and 
part with free labor, and I ran that 
place with about one hundred and 
forty or one hundred and fifty hands 
and we cultivated a little more land 
than we have now, and I expect the 
State will average about two hun- 
dred and fifty hands down there now. 

Q. — Practically double? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Judge W. O. Diffie: 

Q. — I believe you said that under 
the present law the farming operat- 
ing was not profitable. Will you 
give your reasons? 

A. — The hours are so short. They 
are not working eight hours, and by 
the time they go from the building, 
catch up their teams and go to work, 
it is way up in the day, and then if 
you get a rush season where a crop 
will need attention, there is no way 
of rushing them at all, and they do 
not put in the same number of hours 
free labor does. 

Q. — I will ask you in your opinion, 
and from your information gathered 
from all sources, do the convicts 
work as well under the present sys- 
tem as they did under the old law? 

A. — They do not work as well as 
they did under the old law. Now, 
I always paid especial attention to 
our convicts, when we hired them, 
as to taking care of them. I used to 
go into the dining room two or three 
times a week, but since the State has 
been running them I don't do this, 
and I believe the State is feeding 
them better than they were. The con- 
victs are very destructive on all 
kinds of implements, teams, and 
things of that kind. 

Q. — You stated a while ago that 
under the present tariff, it would 'not, 
or could not be profitable? 

A. — No sir; I don't believe we 
could pay $1.00 per day and make it 
profitable. 

Q. — You think the Republican tar- 
iff would be better than the Demo- 
cratic tariff? 

A. — Yes, sir. Of course, Porta 
Rico gets in their sugar free, and 
the Hawaiian Islands get theirs in 
free, and Cuba brings in 1,900,000 
short tons, and over the $1.90 they 
get a 20 per cent reduction, which 
brings it down to $1.55 or $1.60 tar- 
iff on it, and under this Underwood 
bill for three years it has been a lit- 
tle over 1 cent per pound on sugar, 
and they have charged the basis on 
that. They have made it on the 75 



test instead of 16 Dutch standard, 
and that makes a trifle difference be- 
tween the two. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — The cotton on the farm, five 
hundred and some odd bales, under 
the present contract, was that all 
sold? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Has the State been able to 
pay you the amount due up to date? 

A. — It was charged to them. They 
have not paid us anything. 

Q. — What I mean is this: has the 
crop liquidated it, or any part of it? 

A. — Yes, sir. I don't believe the 
State owes the Areola Sugar Com- 
pany anything. They are just about 
even. Now this sugar business; we 
have always made money on sugar, 
and the State has made money on 
sugar. There is no reason why they 
should not. 

Q. — I notice in the sales of 1912 
the State sold some hogs to the 
amount of $18 479.76. Were you 
interested in that? 

A. — Well, they bought our hogs 
we had there, and they gave ue their 
note for that. 

Q. — Do you know how they applied 
the proceeds of these hogs? 

A. — -They have sold about $3,- 
000.00 worth of these hogs. They 
only paid about $1,100.00 for them. 

Q. — You don't know to whom they 
sold the hogs? 

A. — They sent them to the Hous- 
ton Packing Company. 

Q. — Did they apply the proceeds 
to what they owed the Areola Com- 
pany? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q.- — You say they changed ,the 
management of the farm three times 
the last sixteen months? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — The first manager was Captain 
Mills? 

A. — Yes, sir; and he knew the 
place thoroughly, and he is one of 
the best sugar cane men in the State. 
Now, I don't consider Mills a first- 
class manager either. Of course, he 
can be a good farmer and then not 
take care of his stuff. There is an 
enormous amount of implements, 
such as cultivators, that cost $25.00 
or $30.00 apiece, and disc plows that 
cost $40.00 or $50.00 apiece that are 
not cared for as they should be. 

Q. — He is a good farmer, but a 
poor manager? 



208 



Report and Findings of 



A. — Well, I don't say he is a poor 
manager, but I have seen better. 

Q. — How long was Captain Mills 
with you? 

A. — He was there from January 
until along in July or the first of 
August. 

Q. — Who succeeded him? 

A. — Captain Worrell was on the 
farm as sergeant at the time he suc- 
ceeded Mills. He had absolute con- 
trol of the convicts. We had no con- 
trol over them whatever under this 
lease. All we had to do was to point 
out what was to be done, and they 
were supposed to do it. Worrell 
stayed on there until the 15th of 
January. 

Q. — And who succeeded him? 

A. — Captain Cunningham. 

Q. — Where did he come from? 

A. — The Bonus farm. The lease 
had run out and he had white con- 
victs, and they sent Worrell to the 
Ramsey as assistant to Captain 
South. 

Q. — Do you think a farm can be 
successful when they change man- 
agers three times in sixteen months? 

A.^No sir, I do not; but they 
thought he was a better manager for 
white convicts, or at least better than 
the other. 

Q. — Had these three managers 
been managers under previous ad- 
ministrations? 

A. — Yes, sir; Mills had been. 

Q. — What is Captain Mills' view 
as to the operation of the law? 

A. — He does not approve of the 
humanitarian feature of the present 
law. 

Q. — He believes in the old way of 
driving the convicts? 

A. — Well, I don't know. 

Q. — Have you talked to him in re- 
gard to this subject? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — Does he believe it is impos- 
sible to make a profit unless you use 
the bat or force the prisoners to work 
like they did under the old way? 

A. — No; I don't know. 

Q. — About what proportion of the 
guards on your farm are old men? 

A. — Quite a good many have been 
there a long time. 

Q. — On the Cunningham farm, are 
they new men? 

A. — I don't know whether they 
have been in the system a long time 
or not. Some of the others have been 
there twenty years. 

Q. — Are the guards on the farm in 
sympathy with the present law? 



A. — Yes, sir. They are worse than 
the convicts. We had one guard that 
could tell within half a minute with- 
out a watch when to leave the field. 
He was in sympathy with the law as 
to getting in with his forces at night, 
if that is what you mean. 

Q. — He was always watching the 
clock, twas he? 

A. — Yes, sir; he watched the clock. 
Now I am told that the Asylum is 
paying 5 and 6 cents for their sugar 
today. I don't say the State should 
produce all the sugar for its institu- 
tions, but we would be glad to sell 
them sugar at 4 1-8 cents. That 
would be 7-8 of a cent cheaper. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — Did you ever take that ques- 
tion up with anyone? 

A. — Yes, sir; I took it up with 
Mr. Tittle, and he stated they had a 
contract. 

Q. — When the State's purchasing 
agent advertised for a bid, did you 
or the State, or either of you, put in 
a bid? 

A. — No, sir. They usually adver- 
tise at a time when we are out of 
sugar, but we could hold our sugar 
and make arrangements, if they 
would do it. 

Q. — Have you ever estimated the 
amount of sugar the State uses in its 
different institutions? 

A. — No, sir; but they use quite a 
good deal of sugar. 

Q. — The reason I ask you this is 
because no sugar mill can be run 
profitably unless it has a certain ton- 
nage of sugar cane to grind. 

A. — It is not only that, but they 
ought to centralize their sugar busi- 
ness. Now they have at the Clem- 
ens farm a sugar house, and I know 
the machinery they have there is 
three years younger than ours, and 
is a newer sugar house, and the con- 
tract price during Mr. W'ortham's- - 
he was financial agent — and it cost 
$268,500 to complete it. That is at 
the Clemens farm. It is a 1000 ton 
mill. Its capacity is 1000 tons of 
cane per day, and I don't think the 
mill has ever been run to its capac- 
ity, and it makes a vast difference 
if you grind only 400 or 500 tons 
per day, and therefore it should be 
run to its capacity. I don't believe 
the sugar mill on the Clemens farm 
has ever been run to its capacity. 
Now they built that sugar house on» 
credit. The State had only $40,000 
to pay on it during Governor Sayers' 
administration. When Wortham 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



209 



went in there — lie was financial 
agent — he paid out the gross value 
of the sugar house in two crops. He 
paid that sugar house out. 

Q. — Did he pay it out from the 
cane grown on the Clemens farm? 

A. — Yes, sir; he could not get any 
other sugar cane in there. 

Q.— Are you familiar with the 
Clemens farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you tell us about how- 
many acres is suitable for raising 
cane? 

A. — I don't think it is a very de- 
sirable farm. It is what we call 
peach land, and it is not as good as 
these other soils — red soil. 

Q. — Is it good cotton soil? 

A. — Yes, sir; good cotton land, 
but not as good as the Ramsey farm. 

Q. — And you don't think a 1000 
ton sugar mill should be put there? 

A. — No, I think not. Now you 
take the Ramsey farm cane; to ship 
it you have to go over three roads. 

Q. — Why was the Ramsey farm 
cane shipped to Areola instead of the 
Clemens farm? 

A. — They could not get it there. 

Q. — Do they have to make a back- 
haul over the Eldridge road? 

A. — No, sir. Now the Eldridge 
road and the Areola Sugar Co., they 
run direct. Since then the M., K. & 
T. bought the Velasco road, and they 
are making a survey today. 

Q. — It would not only be too ex- 
pensive, but would take too much 
time to get it there? 

A. — Yes, sir; and then you see a 
ton of cane in hauling it by rail- 
road is 25 cents per ton, and there is 
no money in it. 

Q. — Why was the cane shipped 
from the Imperial farm to the Ar- 
eola Mills instead of to the Harlem 
farm i 

A. — The capacity was not great 
enough to handle the cane from the 
Imperial. The Harlem mill is a 
small mill. I think it is about 400 
tons. Now on the Areola mill, out- 
side of the crusher, we can grind 650 
tons just as it is today. 

Q. — Under the present arrange- 
ments of the farm, where ought the 
Clemens mill to be, if located prop- 
erly? 

A. — It ought to be on the Ramsey 
farm. 

Q. — How far is the Ramsey farm 
from the Harlem? 

A. — About 25 or 26 miles. No, 
it is more than that; it is 30 miles. 



Q. — Under the contract with the 
Areola people, was the State to pur 
in any improvements? 

A. — I estimated it would take $4,- 
000, and the State was to pay one- 
half of the improvements. Instead 
of taking $4,000, however, it only 
took $3,400, about $600 less than 
my estimate on it to put the plant 
in commission. 

Q.— The State has no contract with 
you beyond this year? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What would it cost to move 
the Clemens mill to the Ramsey 
farm? 

A. — About $100,000. Maybe it 
could be done for $75,000. You could 
hardly move the foundations. I 
would think it would cost something 
in the neighborhood of that to fix it 
up. 

Q. — What is the cash valuation of 
the Clemens farm aside from the 
mills? 

A. — I don't know. They have put 
in a great deal of improvements On 
it since I was there. They have 
ditched it and cleared it up. I don't 
know just what has been done. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — They have an enormous num- 
ber of men down there? 

A. — The last time I saw Captain 
Mills he told be he had. 700 men 
down there. 

Q. — From your experience in hand- 
ling sugar and growing cane and 
other farm products in this part of 
the country, what changes would you 
suggest in the farm management in 
order to make the State farming op- 
erations profitable? We want to get 
your ideas. 

A. — I would sell the Clemens farm, 
and would move the Clemens mill to 
some central point, and would grind 
all the cane you produce at one mill. 
Nolw you take before the war there 
were about 1,400 sugar mills in 
Louisiana. Today they have cen- 
tralized them. There are not over 
260 mills in the entire State. Now 
the State of Louisiana has a modern 
sugar mill that cost them $470,000. 
It is more modern than anything in 
the State of Texas. It is thoroughly 
fire proof; steel and brick, and they 
work 900 convicts in it; that is, the 
State does, 'lhey just year before 
last built it. Now the Clemens farm 
has six rollers; we have six rollers; 
the Sugar Land has six, and they 
have nine rollers. Now, I suppose 



210 



Report and Findings of 



they get somewhere in the neighbor- 
hood of 185 pounds of sugar to the 
ton. We get on an average of about 
145 or 150 pounds, taking an aver- 
age of ten years. This year we got 
170 pounds, owing to the glucose be- 
ing extra fine. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — What about the yield per acre? 

A. — It was very poor, but the 
quality was good. Now in Louisiana 
during the freeze, they lost about 
45,000 tons of cane during that 
freeze, and they have had two over- 
flows, and still they are planting cane 
with convict labor. 

Q. — What further suggestions have 
you? 

A. — I would get them as near to- 
gether as I could, and would grind 
all this cane at one central fac- 
tory. 

Q. — How far would they have to 
take the Harlem cane to the new 
factory? Would there have to be a 
new railroad built? 

A. — No, sir; the Sugar Land could 
haul it. It is built now. They could 
take care of the Harlem, Imperial 
and the Ramsey farm in one fac- 
tory. This would cut expenses down 
enormously. I don't know what they 
are paying for engineers, but I think 
about $3,600 now. I am not pay- 
ing anything. I don't need them, for 
there is nothing to do. 

Q. — You mean the State is employ- 
ing engineers during the season they 
are idle? 

A. — They employ them by the 
year. 

Q. : — And you employ them by the 
month? 

A. — Yes, sir; by the month. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — What further changes would 
you suggest in the farming opera- 
tions? Are we growing too much 
cane and too little cotton? 

A. — The way you stand now is, 
you have not enough cane, and anoth- 
er trouble with the State they have 
been trying to run their stubble too 
long. Louisiana used to do this 
years ago, but they don't do it now. 
Where you try to raise cane by let- 
ting the stubble run three, four and 
five stubble crops, the result is you 
don't get the tonnage, and if prop- 
erly handled you can raise twenty 
tons to the acre. Now twenty tons 
to the acre, even at $3, is $60 per 
acre. Now when you go to ten or 
twelve tons per acre, you cut it down, 



and cut out the profit. Now, I ex- 
perimented with the oldest piece of 
land on this place. The first year 
I planted two bushels of peas to the 
acre. I plowed that under; culti- 
vated it thoroughly; and took off 
thirty-seven tons of cane to the acre. 
The next year I put on 600 pounds 
of fertilizer on the stubble, and I 
took off thirty-five tons to the acre, 
and the next year I took off thirty- 
three tons to the arce, and still put 
on the fertilizer. You have got to 
average twenty tons to make any 
money out of it, and you can do it 
by properly handling it. We hardly 
ever have these droughts. 

Q. — How about cotton as a profit- 
able crop? 

A. — Up to the time of the boll 
weevil it was all right. 

Q. — How about the boll weevil 
now? 

A. — I used to make a bale to the 
acre, but since the boll weevil came 
I can't do it any more. 

Q. — Which has shown the greater 
profit; cotton or cane? 

A.— Cane. If they had left the 
tariff on it, it would yet.be all right. 
I don't know what it will be without 
the tariff. Now take Cuba, they get 
220 pounds of sugar to the ton, and 
we get 150 to 160 pounds. 

Q. — Does the cane prove more 
profitable to the farm or to the mills ? 

A. — It has paid more profit to the 
mill man, but we have always run it 
in connection with the mill, and the 
State has got two mills. 

Q. — Have you any other business 
transactions with the penitentiary 
system aside from the Areola planta- 
tion? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you had in the last two 
years ? 

A. — No, sir; nothing to amount to 
anything. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — What do you estimate it costs 
to plant an acre of sugar cane? 

A. — It will cost to plant it right, 
and pea vine it, about $25 per acre to 
plant it. 

Q. — What do you consider the dif- 
ference of cost in the cultivation of 
an acre of cane and an acre of cotton ? 

A. — I prefer the cane. I think cane 
costs less. The cane is laid by in 
July. It is really a forced crop in 
America. It never matures. We only 
get a growth of seven or eight months 
at best, and in the tropics it gets a 



Penitentiaky Investigating Committee. 



211 



growth of twelve months. It never 
matures here, and after the Fourth 
of July it should not be plowed. It 
ought to be large enough at that time 
to shade the ground, and unless you 
get rains in July or August you will 
get a good cane crop. You wont 
make the tonnage either where it 
commences suckering. All this cane 
up now is the mother stalk, and I 
don't suppose there is over six or 
eight, or perhaps ten stairs of cane. 
Now there was in June last year 
thirty-five or forty suckers, and they 
never matured at all. Now just look 
at the tonnage. That is what fooled 
the men. It covered the ground, but 
it never matured. All the suckers 
were wasted. 

Q. — Would that waste make good 
ensilage for fattening acttle? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — For fattening cattle, horses, 
etc? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now, we never bought 
hay on this place at all. The State 
has hay enough to run them, but I 
claim it is the State's fault in not 
putting it up oroperly. I always had 
a layer of salt put in, though it does 
not protest it entirely, yet it is fairly 
good feed up to the time corn comes 
in. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — How much do you estimate the 
yield of cane on those Brazos farms 
could be increased by irrigation? 

A. — It would increase it at least 10 
tons to the acre, if they don't run 
the stubble too long. If they will only 
take two crops of stubble off and 
plant one. Now, the cane exhausts 
all the cane properties in the soil in 
the three years and it ought to be re- 
stored. Land wont stand it unless it 
is newly cleared up. It will cost 
about $4 per acre to fertilize it with 
peas. The Louisiana men this day 
and time won't discuss with you a j 
three years stubble crop. 

Q. — Has Louisiana tried irriga- j 
tion? 

A. — No, sir; I think not. Texas j 
can raise better cane than Louisiana. 

Q. — Would it be your judgment that ! 
irrigation would change the puritv 
test ? 

A. — Yes. sir; I think it would. Now 
the purity test, I don't think is a fair I 
test. It is the suclose in the suga v 
cane. Now, when they make it in 
Louisiana they won't make it in a, 
purity test. As I was going to say, I 
I have seen some cane that would test ' 



7 8. We make it here 79 purity test, 
and that suclose of that cane of the 
78 would go higher. It did this last 
year, and why it did I don't know. 

Q. — What is the average, from your 
observations ? 

A. — We have never had a purity 
test. 

Q. — Now, in the year 1911 when 
they had a large crop effected by the 
freeze, how was that crop ? 

A. — Very good, but not as good as 
last year. The suclose was not as 
high as last year. 

Q. — Do you know approximately 
how much cane was plante4 this year 
outside that planted on the State 
farms ? 

A. — Very little. We planted about 
225 acres, I think, and they planted 
440 acres at the Ramsey, and outside 
of that not very much planted, but 
the State is differently situated in 
regard to this cane business. They 
have got the labor, and with the other 
men it is very risky for when the 
cotton crop is made it is almost im- 
possible to take it off. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — You think it is risky for in- 
dividuals ? 

A. — I do to harvest the crop. You 
can make it with free labor, but it 
is a risk to harvest it. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — You made the statement just 
now your experience has been cane 
was more profitable than cotton. Did 
you take into consideration your cost 
of replanting and fertilizing? 

A. — Yes, sir; I took all that in. 

Q. — But it is more essential that 
you fertilize with a cane crop than 
a cotton crop? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — A mill the capacity of the 
Clemens mill, how many acres of cane 
would you have to plant in order to 
operate that at a reasonable profit? 

A. — The Clemens mill ought not to 
have less than 60,000 tons of cane to 
operate it properly. It ought to take 
care of 60,000 tons of cane easily. We 
have taken care of 45,000 tons of 
cine at our mill. It ought to be 
00,000 tons. Well, say twenty tons 
to the acre — the State does not aver- 
sge twenty tons, but there is no 
reason why it should not — and 60,000 
tons, it would be about 3000 acres in 
pane. 

Q. — Taking the last five years, has 
the market decreased in the yield of 
cane as to former years? 



212 



Report and Findings of 



A. — -Yes, sir; I think it has. It is 
principally the tariff. They have been 
fearful of it all the time. 

Q. — Do you think the Brazos bottom 
farms, are healthful locations for 
white convicts? 

A. — Yes. sir; I think so. They did 
fairly well with us this year. We 
had them years ago — five or six years 
ago. 

Q. — How many acres do you esti- 
mate to the man when you cultivate 
cane? 

A. — We cultivate about eighteen to 
twenty acres. 

Q. — How much corn does it usually 
take to run the place? 

A. — It usually takes from 2,000 to 
2,100 bushels of corn to run the 
place. We raise our own corn. The 
State sent some down there this year; 
the first we have had sent there in 
twenty years. 

Q. — Of your knowledge of the re- 
quirements of the penitentiary 
system, how many acres of agricultu- 
ral land do you think the State 
should own? 

A. — I don't know. I don't know 
what they would want to do, but if 
they average what they do under 
the new law, they would want about 
fifteen acres to the hand. They ought 
to do it. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q.— Does the free labor cultivate 
more than that? 

A. — About twenty or twenty-two 
acres, but they don't cultivate it 
thoroughly, and I think the men 
should be worked with some judge- 
ment. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 

Q. — Did I understand you to say 
you think the State could not grow 
cane profitably under the present 
law? 

A. — I did not say that. Under the 
present Underwood law they can do 
it for the next three years, and I 
believe it can be grown. It all de- 
pends on what you charge up these 
men with. If you charge them $1 per 
day you can't do it, but for their 
feed, clothing and expenses, you can 
do it. 

Q. — I believe you said you had been 
growing cane since '72, and had been 
using convict labor from '75 until 
now? 

A. — Yes, sir; there has been no 
partnership with the State. They 
just farmed the plantation. The only 
partnership was with the sugar 



house. That did not include the 
farm at all. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — I took from your statement, 
Mr. House, that you are of the opin- 
ion the success of these sugar farms 
depend largely upon its men? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In other words, if they were 
managed by men who were interested 
in the work, and understood the work, 
it could be made profitable to the 
State? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you mind stating to the 
Committee, if same business judg- 
ment had been exercised in selecting 
men to take charge of thees enter- 
prises as should have been selected 
in taking charge of these business 
operations? 

A. — I think it would have been a 
little different if you had an in- 
dividual selection. It seems a little 
difficult to get a proper man to run 
them. Now, I have tried all kinds 
of Louisiana men over here, and I 
have never got one from Louisiana, 
except one, that was really a good 
man. The soil and climate is diffe- 
rent, and they persist in cultivating 
land like they do in Louisiana. In 
Louisiana they plant it on a bed, and 
we plant it in the furrow. They do 
it in Louisiana to avoid the water. 
If you do that here, you won't get 
the third year's stubble out of it. 

Q. — You think one of the reasons 
why we have not had our farms man- 
aged profitably, or as they should 
have been, is due to favoritism or 
politics? 

A. — No, sir; it is the present law, 
in my mind. They have tried to 
carry it out in every way, and it has 
been an awfully expensive law, 
taking one thing w i# th another in con- 
nection with it. Take these discharg- 
ed convicts to whom we give tickets 
to El Paso. Well, the Commission 
tried to avoid that by making the 
men take oath they were going there. 
About two weeks ago I sat just behind 
a man coming to Houston, and he 
was trying to get the auditor to re- 
fund him the amount from Ft. Worth 
to El Paso. I told the auditor not 
to give him a cent, and I told him 
he would get in trouble again. He 
said his sister was sick in Ft. Worth 
and he wanted to stop over there. 
This was a white convict. Now right 
here is enormous fare, and almost 
all the convicts want to go there. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



213 



By Mr. R. B. Humphreys: 
Q. — Do you know anything about 
the hours of labor in effect in the 
Louisiana system? 

A. — I think it is ten hours. 
Q. — Just like our laws? 
A. — Yes, sir. Of course, you can't 
get in ten hours in the winter time. 

Q. — I thought you made some com- 
plaints in regard to the hours of 
labor? 

A. — I did, but that is ten hours of 
labor, counting going from the build- 
ing. It will take a half an hour 
to hitch up their team and a quarter 
of an hour to get to their work, and 
the same time to get back to the 
building, and it reduces it to about 
eight hours of labor. 

Q. — Could not the law be revised 
to work these men ten hours a day 
for certain months in the year? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now some of these 
months you don't require it as you 
are well up with your crops, and they 
have nothing to do, but at other times 
you are rushed, ana It is necessary 
to work the men longer hours, but 
they ought not to work these men 
unduly. They ought not to do that 
at all. 

Q. — Would you suggest certain 
months in the year the time of labor 
be extended to certain hours? 

A. — Well, I don't know. During 
the hot weather I would work them 
earlier in the morning and let them 
lay up in the middle of the day. 
When we were paying them $1 per 
day I would have them lay up in the 
middle of the day one or two hours 
about dinner time. Now, the trusty 
system; I am opposed to that. I 
don't think it best. They have an 
enormous number of trusties. We 
have on this place somewhere about 
forty or fifty. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy; 
Q. — Do they do much work? 
A.— No, sir; they just fool around. 
They have no one to look after them, 
and they give a good deal of trou- 
ble. They are idle, and of course, 
they cost the State so much money. 
By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 
Q. — Are those trusties subject to 
the same regulations as the others? 
A. — They should be. They have 
five trusties today where I did the 
work better with two. 

Q. — During the busy season what 
hour limit would you put on the con- 
vict labor? 

A. — Ten hours. 



Q. — Exclusive of the going to the 
field and returning? 
A. — Yes, sir. 
By Judge W. O. Diffie: 
Q. — About what months would 
you put on the extra hours? 

A. — In April, May and June I 
would put those hours on. In July 
and August I would lighten up on 
them owing to the hot weather, and 
in September I would start out again 
when it became cooler; but in July 
and August I would not work them 
any more than you are now, and 
would let them rest in the middle of 
the day, but I would make them 
work later in the evening than you 
do now. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson. 
Q. — You just stated when you 
made this lease to the Prison Com- 
mission they agreed to pay you $7 
per acre. Was there any land plant- 
ed in cane at that time? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — About how long was that 
planted? 

A. — Very little of it three-year 
stubble. Most of it two-year-old 
stubble. 

Q. — How much of it was in stub- 
ble? 

A. — I think about 225 acres. It 
was two or three-year stubble, I 
think. 

Q. — Was there at that time any 
three-year stubble? 

A. — Yes, sir; we usually kept 
three-year stubble to plant with. 
When you cut the stubble early in 
August it injures the stubble, but I 
don't think it is as good cane as the 
two-year stubble. It becomes woody. 
Louisiana only plants the second 
year stubble, and it does not germi- 
nate as well, but we always plant 
three-year stubble, owing to plowing 
it up, and therefore we have always 
reserved some of it for that purpose. 
Q. — In the contract lease what 
was stipulated in regard to the num- 
ber of acres? 

A. — I don't know. We had it sur- 
veyed. The Commissioners appoint- 
ed the surveyor, and we paid for it. 
Q. — What do you think of paying 
the guards a uniform salary? 

A. — You are now paying them 
$35. You increased it under the 
new law, and I don't think you 
helped it a bit. I think you ought 
to have better control over the 
guards. You ought to put them 
under some uniform enlistment, or 



214 



Report and Findings of 



some way you control them better. 
Some are a hard set of citizens. 

Q. — They are now employing one 
guard to eight or ten men? 

A. — It depends on what they are 
doing. 

Q. — Do you think it possible to re- 
duce the number of guards? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think you 
could, but I would put them under 
more restrictions like they do in the 
Arm3 r . Now, you take the Commit- 
tee; they go there and investigate, 
and they had nothing to say to the 
guards or the managers, but just 
went to the convicts, and if you want 
to find out all about things you must 
go over all of it. They went through 
the buildings and questioned the con- 
victs, but never said anything about 
it to us at all, and only took the con- 
victs' statements for it. They got 
there at 7:30 o'clock and left at 11 
o'clock and inspected two camps and 
the camps were two miles from each 
other. That is a fact. They went 
to the Ramsey and got in there at 
7:30 and left at 11 o'clock. There 
is not a man living who could make 
a proper inspection in that length of 
time. They did not look at the crops. 
They would not look over it, and their 
whole object was to see if the men 
had been well cared for. 

Q. — What is the difference in the 
care of the convict at the present 
time than prior to that time? 

A. — They have been better cared 
for, but during the time of John 
Wortham he took good care of them; 
that is, he fed them well, but they 
are better fed and taken care of 
under this law. The care of them is 
all right. 

Q. — Have they materially improved 
the different camps? 

A. — It is improved very much down 
at Captain South's. They have im- 
proved the water; they have no water 
less than 300 feet deep. Our well is 
1,034 feet deep. 

By Senator John G. Willacy. 

Q. — Is that your water? . 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Do you think it policy for the 
State of Texas to have its farming 
lands near together, or would you 
suggest a portion of such lands be 
farther north? 

A. — I would put them all together. 
You can't improve on the land in this 
part of the State. You take the en- 
tire State, they now figure on about 
a fourth of a bale to the acre,, and 



you can figure on at least a half 
bale down here and that is a very low 
figure, and I have made up to as high 
as one and a half bales to the acre. 

Q. — What do you think of the con- 
dition of health here? 

A. — It is good. 

Q. — Is it as good as farther north. 

A. — Yes, sir; just as good. I have 
lived there all my life and I am in 
pretty good health. There is an- 
other sample over there (indicating 
Mr. Brahan). 

Q. — Have you ever had occasion, 
Mr. House, to observe the question 
of the operation of the different fac- 
tories in the prisons? 

A. — No, sir; don't know anything 
about them at all. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — You suggested a while ago the 
guards should be brought under bet- 
ter control. Do they interfere with 
the proper management of the farm? 

A. — They are not attentive to their 
business. They don't see that the 
men do their work properly. They 
don't take the interest in the work 
they should take. Now I am taking 
as a whole. They are too extrava- 
gant and too wasteful, and the entire 
management is that way. They get 
the idea that the State is paying for 
it and the State has plenty of money. 

Q. — Their first consideration is 
not to the best interests of the State? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You think then one of the 
several leaks in our farming system 
is inattention to business? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And lack of sympathy and 
consideration? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think that represents 
a great deal of the financial loss? 

A. — Yes, sir. Of course they 
make failures in crops and so on, but 
if you make a full crop and it costs 
you more to — 

Q. — It is largely a question of 
management? 

A. — Yes, sir; there is no question 
about, it. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — You suggested that the yield 
of cotton per acre is perhaps higher 
than in other sections of the State? 

A. — I don't know the last few 
years whether it has been or not, 
but if it was not for the boll weevil, 
there is no better section than the 
Brazos River section, I don't care 
where you go. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



215 



Q. — Assuming that that is true, 
does it not require a great deal more 
labor to cultivate cotton than in 
other sections farther north? 

A. — Yes, sir; vegetation is more 
rank, and it takes more cultivation. 

Q. — I understand you to say 1* 
to 2 acres per man is what they 
cultivate? Now in Northwest Texas 
we cultivate — 

A. — But you have riding plows. 
All ours are walking plows. 

Q. — Ought they to have riding 
plows, Mr. House? 

A.- — -I don*i know; I think it would 
be better. If I were working free 
labor I would have all riding plows. 
They avoid walking just as much as 
they can. 



HEARING HELD BEFORE INVES- 
TIGATING COMMITTEE OF THE 
STATE PENITENTIARIES, TUES- 
DAY MORNING, BENDER HO- 
TEL,, HOUSTON, TEXAS. 

Mr. Chairman: We are here with 
the idea of learning what we can and 
especially what improvement can be 
made and changes that can be made 
in order to make the system self- 
sustaining, without in any way ab- 
rogating the humanitarian features 
that have been incorporated into the 
law. Mr. Eldridge, we are glad to 
have you with us in order to let 
your views come before us on all 
matters based on your large experi- 
ence in handling this kind of mat- 
ters, also in handling cane and other 
products of this country as a far- 
mer and planter; Senator Willacy 
will conduct the investigation. 

Mr. W. T. Eldridge testified as fol- 
lows: 

Q. — What is your full name? 

A.— W. T. Eldridge. 

Q. — We do not want to go into 
any question where there is a diffi- 
culty between you and the State. 
We want you to tell us as far as you 
can, anything that pertains to the 
operation of the State's farms with 
which you are familiar, so that, as 
the Chairman has stated, we may try 
and arrive at some basis to operate 
it properly; we appreciate the fact 
that there is some question of dif- 
ference between you and the State 
and those questions we will not un- 
dertake to go into here; it ought 
not to be discussed here, being a 
question the courts should decide; 
you occupy some relationship with 



the Imperial Sugar Company, do you 
not? 

A. — I am vice president and man- 
ager. 

Q. — Are you operating anywhere 
convicts under the system? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Never did? 

A. — Oh, I have. 

Q. — Not now? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — When was your contract or 
lease terminated? 

A.— 1911. 

Q. — Is it your experience, Mr. Eld- 
ridge, that cane can be grown profit- 
ably by individuals on a small scale? 
Do you consider it a hazardous busi- 
ness? 

A. — To some extent, Senator, but I 
consider any proposition to some de- 
gree hazardous. 

Q. — Do you consider sugar cane 
growing more hazardous than cot- 
ton? 

A. — Not in the same area. 

Q. — What would you consider an 
average fair crop of cane, we will 
say, for a period of ten years? 

A. — You mean just as we grow it, 
one year with another, out there? 

Q. — As you are growing it down 
there. 

A. — Fifteen tons. 

Q. — Fifteen tons would be an av- 
erage? 

A. — I think it is heavier than fif- 
teen tons, some years we get much 
more than that and some years less. 

Q. — Will you state to the Commit- 
tee the approximate cost per acre 
of making an average crop? 

A. — Well, my experience has been 
about two dollars a ton, one year 
with another, would cover all possi- 
ble expense. 

Q. — Producing the crop? 

A. — In one year, basing tl'.at on 
fifteen tons. 

Q. — Would that estimate deii\er 
the cane to the sugar mills? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is the average price re- 
ceived for cane at the mill? 

A. — Well, the minimum price has 
always been figured based on three 
dollars a ton, Senator, tUat would 
depend on the price of sugar <in- 
der which it is based and the time 
of delivery. 

Q. — How did the cane crop of 1911, 
that is when you had your bad 
freeze, how did that compare with 
an average crop? 



216 



Report and Findings of 



A. — That was above an average, 
Senator, generally speaking. 

Q. — It would average more than 
the general average you gave of fif- 
teen tons per acre? 

A. — Yes, sir. That year would av- 
erage much more than fifteen tons. 

Q. — You are familiar with hand- 
ling convict labor, are you not? 

A. — I believe so. 

Q. — Do you thing the State can 
profitably raise cane with convict la- 
bor under the present law? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you tell the Committee 
how much land is handled by con- 
victs in cane and cotton? 

A. — No, sir, I cannot do that. 

Q. — You have no idea? 

A. — I don't know how many con- 
victs they have at the different farms, 
I know that they have many more 
than heretofore; I don't know how 
many acres of land they are cultivat- 
ing on the different farms. 

Q. — I notice in the public reports, 
reports of the Imperial State farm 
and also one of the Imperial Lease 
farm — is your company leasing any 
land at present? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you leased any lands to 
the State recently? 

A. — No, sir, they repudiated all 
contracts. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
State's system of receiving supplies 
on its different large farms? 

A. — I cannot say that I am; I have 
seen a good many delivered but I 
cannot say that I am familiar with 
the system. 

Q. — You could not say that sup- 
plies are received direct at the camp? 

A. — No, sir; I have never handled 
or seen the supplies delivered at the 
different farms. 

Q. — You keep somewhat familiar 
with the managers and guards in 
charge of the different State farms? 

A. — I know a great many of them. 

Q. — How do they compare as to 
their personality as guards prior to 
the enactment of this present law 
as to punishment? 

A. — Well, I consider many guards 
I have seen and men in charge in- 
efficient men compared to previous 
administrations, according to my 
ideas about it; the men in charge, 
direct, of the farms, managers, I con- 
sider good men in charge, all that 
I know personally. 

Q. — Can you state from your in- 
vestigation, are you able to state to 



the Committee whether or not you 
consider the guards and other em- 
ployes of our State farms in sym- 
pathy with the State's interests or 
not? 

A. — I cannot say that I can, I can- 
not say that I can answer that just 
that way exactly. 

Q. — Well, have you heard or do 
you know it to be a fact that the 
guards do not believe in our present 
law and hence are not in sympathy 
with it? 

A. — Well, I have heard some ex- 
press themselves that you could not 
work the convicts under the present 
law. My ideas and impressions are 
what I gain from the men whom I 
have talked to, that they are simply 
obeying orders from the Commis- 
sioners. 

Q. — In your investigation up at 
Huntsville, you feel it is your right 
to have a certain transaction ex- 
plained there from your standpoint, 
because it shows that the State held 
at one time your note for $10,000 
and that you compromised same for 
$5,000, I think you have the right 
to state your ideas on that proposi- 
tion? 

A. — About the State having my 
note for $10,000. 

Q. — That is the way it comes to 
us. 

A. — I don't remember of any note 
ever being compromised. 

Q. — Were there some bills receiv- 
able or bills payable? 

A. — There were some — there was 
some cane damaged by a freeze that 
^7e agreed on a settlement at fifty 
cents on the dollar, on what it would 
have brought, provided it would have 
been unfrozen cane. 

Q. — You don't think that was in 
the form of a note? 

A. — I don't think it was a note; 
I think it was closed by a note to 
be settled with the products of the 
cane, when the products of the cane 
were to be disposed of. 

Q. — Who agreed with you on the 
part of the State in that settlement? 

A. — Captain Herring, Mr. Barton, 
Mr. Cabell and Mr. Tittle were all 
present and all consented and 
agreed to it. 

Q. — The agreement was unani- 
mous, was it? 

A. — I heard no objection to it by 
anybody. 

Q. — You say that a good average 
value is about fifteen tons per acre? 

A. — One year with another. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



217 



Q. — But. during 1911, when we had 
the freeze, that was an unusually 
good crop? 

A. — The majority of places had an 
unusual crop that year. 

Q. — Would an average of twenty 
tons be a fair average? 

A. — I think on some farms we 
would have gotten twenty-five tons 
that year. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
Clemens farm? 

A. — I cannot say that I am, I have 
been on the place several times, but I 
was not on there during that year. 

Q. — Have you been through the 
sugar mill? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You consider it a modern 
plant? 

A. — They have got a good mill 
there, and, of course sugar ma- 
chinery changes every few years, that 
mill has been built several years and 
just how much improvement has been 
kept up on it, I am not in a position 
to say. 

Q. — You don't know what acreage 
in cane was planted on the Clemens 
farm? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — The Committee has a letter 
from Mr. Barton in which he sug- 
gested that we ask you to appear 
before the Committee and that you 
could tell us some things of inter- 
est. Now, if there is anything at all 
that you know in reference to the 
farm operations of the State, we 
would like very much to have you 
tell it. 

A. — Well, Senator, of course, I feel 
like this, that under the unfortunate 
conditions that exist, that my state- 
ments, to a certain extent, might be 
considered biased. 

Q. — I don't think so and I don't 
think the Committee would so think. 
A. — I would like you all to get 
that in intelligible shape and to get 
it from someone who had been as 
unfortunate as I have been. 

Q. — If you prefer not, we will not 
ask you to do so. 

A. — Of course, I want to make that 
explanation in advance of it; any 
question you would want to ask me, 
I will readily answer same to the 
best of my ability. 

Q. — We are taking a position that 
like all citizens of Texas you are in- 
terested in these matters of the 
State's? 

A. — I tried to show an interest in 
the business of the penitentiary 



farms for a long time, and I have 
always tried to take an interest in 
helping the penitentiary system along 
the best I am capable of, at the 
same time having a selfish interest. 
Q. — Would you mind explaining 
to the Committee the conditions that 
now pertain to the railroads sold 
you by the State or to the Imperial 
Sugar Company? 

A. — You mean to Anchor? 
Q. — Yes, sir. 

A. — Yes, sir; I bought that. 
Q. — But you are not operating it? 
A. — No, sir; not since' the connec- 
tion was made north. 

Q. — Now, what facilities would the 
Ramsey farm have to get to the 
sugar mill without the operation of 
that road? 

A. — I am not positive about the 
rate that it would cost, but I think 
it is about — I think it is fifteen or 
sixteen cents a ton; it would cost the 
State more to ship the cane around 
than it would if we had that road 
connected up and was under the ju- 
risdiction of the Railroad Commis- 
sion; if it was operated as I have a 
right to do under the contract, I 
think it would cost the State nine 
cents a ton more to get the cane 
from the Ramsey farm through to 
the Clemens mill than it would to 
ship it around north by the I. & G. 
X. to its other connections; there 
has been so much said I am sorry 
I misplaced a letter I received yes- 
terday, written Saturday, I believe, 
from the Commission, giving me in- 
structions as to what they would ex- 
pect me to do for the coming season 
about that road. I have gotten some 
letters previously that indicated the 
same demand and I would like for 
the Committee to have them, would 
the Committee like to have a copy 
of the contract between myself and 
the Campbell administration? 

Q. — Yes, sir; we would like to 
have it and we would be pleased to 
have you explain it to us in your 
own way. 

A. — The contract, of course, will 
speak best for itself, it is quite long, 
here it* is. I will be glad to leave 
this copy. 

Q. — You have an extra copy? 
A. — I have the original and I 
brought the copy along. 

Q. — We would like to have it. 
A. — I brought this along so as to 
give to the Committee. 
Q.— Do you need it? 
A. — No, I don't need it. 



218 



Report and Findings of 



Mr. Tillotson: I make a motion 
that the copy of the contract be 
placed in the minutes. 

Mr. Chairman: No objection, con- 
tract so placed. 

Q. — At the beginning the State 
originally built the road? 

A. — Yes, sir; they originally built 
a part of it, and then I extended it 
after I bought it from the State; 
the contract will, of course, speak 
for itself, and I will not attempt to 
quote the exact language, the con- 
tract provides that we shall operate 
that during* the cane season and if 
we fail to operate, the State would 
have the right to run its engine 
over and haul the cars; but if they 
deliver their freight as much as five 
cars down to us at any one time, 
we are to haul that freight on the 
regular basis of what the Railroad 
Commission was authorized to be 
charged in case it was operated by 
the charter company; I took the 
northern end of it, connected it up 
with the chartered railroad, and I 
then ceased to operate the track 
there from Ramsey to Anchor be- 
cause it was expensive to do so and 
really would have been a consider- 
able loss to me. 

Q. — After you built the northern 
connection? 

A. — Yes, sir; after I built the 
northern connection I ceased to op- 
erate it, there was a piece^of land I 
bought from the State and I felt 
they were better served with the 
service we were giving them than if 
left in the shape we bought it and 
operating it to Angleton; I got along 
in fine shape with the Campbell ad- 
ministration but when this board 
came in, they began to make con- 
siderable complaint, but I would oc- 
casionally run south to Angleton, and 
just through accommodation I would 
make a run out there occasionally 
for them before the track got in bad 
shape. 

Q. — What road is Angleton on? 
A. — I. & G. N. road. Whenever 
it was raining they would allow us 
to haul things over our track but 
whenever we had anything down to 
Anchor and the roads were good, 
they would haul their freight, and 
when they were bad they would give 
them to us. Later on in the fall I 
got the following letter, would you 
like for me to read this letter — ? 
Q. — If you please. 
"Ben E. Cabell, Chairman; Louis 
W. Tittle, Finance Commissioner; 



Robert W. Brahan, Farm Commis- 
sioner; J. A. Palmer, Secretary; J. E. 
Stubblefield, Assistant Secretary. 

"Office of 

Board of Prison Commissioners, 

Huntsville, Texas. 

"September 23, 1911. 
"Mr. W. T. Eldridge, 

"Sugar Land, Texas. 
"Dear Sir: 

"We advised you by letter of Au- 
gust iO, 1911, that we would exercise 
the option given the State in the con- 
tract between the Prison Commission- 
ers and yourself, dated August 20, 
1909, to grind the cane on the Ramsey 
farm, and that we would not sell you 
the cane on that farm this year, but 
would grind it ourselves. 

"It is provided in said contract and 
in the contract of sale of the railroad 
leading from the Ramsey farm to 
Anchor dated September 7, 1909, that 
in the event the State elected to grind 
the cane on the Ramsey farm, you 
should furnish to the State in due 
time sufficient cars to enable the State 
to move its crop during the usual har- 
vest season, and should transport the 
loaded cars to the mill. Also, that the 
State should have the cars racked. 
We estimate that it will take sixty 
(60) cars for this season. 

"This is to advise you that we shall 
expect you to furnish sufficient cars 
at the Ramsey farm beginning No- 
vember 1, 1911, to move said crop and 
continue until said crop is removed, 
and to transport the same as provided 
in said contract. 

We are advised that you construe 
the contracts referred to above to give 
you the right to abandon the railroad 
from Ramsey farm to Anchor when 
you have made other connections with 
railroads, and that you have com- 
pleted a railroad north from Ramsey 
farm to the State sugar mill at Har- 
lem. Without waiving any of our 
rights under the contracts referred 
to, we wish to state that if you de- 
sire to transport said cane over the 
road leading from Ramsey farm to 
Anchor, then we wish you to deliver 
the cane to the State sugar mill at 
Clemens farm. If you desire to trans- 
port the cane north over your new 
road, we will hereafter instruct you 
as to its delivery. Please advise us 
at once which route you elect to use. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



219 



"We are ready to begin racking the 
cars at once, and to that end request 
that you deliver them to us at Ram- 
sey farm as soon as convenient. 
"Yours truly, 
(Signed) "BEN E. CABELL, 
"Chairman Prison Committee." 

Q. — What was the date of that 
letter ? 

A. — September 23, 1911; you see 
there a demand that he gives me 
there that — to deliver that at sugar 
mill and that he was ready to com- 
mence racking those cars and I will 
tell you, sir, that he did not have any 
lumber there to rack them there on 
the last day of October, he was not 
ready to rack the cars and I have no 
jurisdiction over the other railroad 
at all. 

Mr. J. F. Wolters: 

Q. — What railroad goes to the 
Clemens farm? 

A. — To get to the Clemens farm, if 
I followed his direction, we would 
have to go over the Velasco road to 
Angleton, then over the Brownsville 
road to Brazoria and then over the 
State's own railroad down to Clemens 
mill; I had a similar letter of that 
kind yesterday, telling me that he 
expected me to have that road in 
operation to handle that cane, that 
they were going to grind it at Clemens 
mill. 

Q. — This question involving that is 
not in the courts now? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — It is just the question of dif- 
ference ? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have a letter telling 
me if I did not do that by a certain 
day they would file suit against me, 
that was written about two years 
ago, giving me to a certain day to 
tell them when I would be ready or 
they would file suit against me. 

Q. — Are you through with your 
statement as to the railroad? 

A. — I want to say further I do not 
seriously believe they would, that one 
of the Commissioners would hardly 
go under that and say that they ever 
lost a dollar for the want of trans- 
portation from the Ramsey farm, to 
any place that was in my power to 
deliver the goods, unless it would be 
between Anchor and Ramsey. We 
have afforded them every facility that 
any demand has been made for, for 
them to handle the products put there 
and deliver them and the fact that 



I have the right under that contract 
to run that as a private road under 
the same rate that the Railroad Com- 
mission would authorize in case it 
was a chartered road, will cost the 
gentlemen more money to get their 
product out that way if they carried 
it around the other way. 

Q. — The Harlem Farm lies, with 
reference to the Ramsey farm, still 
beyond the Imperial? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have some letters 
touching on the Harlem proposition. 

Q. — We would be glad to have them, 
Mr. Eldridge. 

A. — Well, we have operated the 
train daily except Sunday since Feb- 
ruary 1 up to Harlem; the gross 
revenue that has been received from 
Sugar Land to station we call Cabell 
right near the Harlem sugar mill has 
been $35.85, February 1 to May 15, 
$35.86, of which the Sugar Land road 
gets a revenue toll rate of the through 
rate and we have operated since Feb- 
ruary 1 down through Otey and ran a 
caboose and freight train daily 
except Sunday and we have car- 
ried the number of passengers, 
all told, over the line, 259, amount- 
ing to $88.80; we have had two 
through passengers from Cabell to 
Otey over the entire line that was 
contributed by some of the employees 
of the Penitentiary System; now 
there is a case pending before the 
Railroad Commission which has not 
yet been disposed of as to the ser- 
vice we are running on that road 
for the benifit of the present Commis- 
sioners; I just wanted the Committee 
to see the amount of revenue we are 
getting from that; now, the Peniten- 
tiary Commissioners rebuilt the track 
from the Southern Pacific road up to 
the Harlem mill at a considerable ex- 
pense and have an engine leased, so 
I am told, from the Southern Pacific, 
anyway it is marked T. & N. 0. Rail- 
road; they are operating that engine 
out there, at the expense of the Sys- 
tem, or I should say, the State, in 
order to keep the Sugar Land Rail- 
road from earning any money on 
the freight that goes up to that point, 
yet we were required to operate that 
daily through a complaint that was 
made by some of them and I have 
some contracts here in which we 
agreed under certain conditions that 
we would put that line under the 
jurisdiction of the Railroad Commis- 
sion and operate it to Harlem but 
shortly after we did that, they com- 



220 



Report and Findings of 



menced to rehabilitate this railroad 
from Harlem station up to the sugar 
mill there. 

Q. — What is that distance? 

A. — I think it is about three miles, 
Senator, and they are better railroad 
men than I am if they can operate 
that road up there with an ■ engine 
for less than twenty dollars a day 
and if they had permitted us to haul 
the freight up there, would not have 
cost them anything; now, I have 
several letters on that subject. Now, 
to read the letters on that subject 
embodies some things that is, or now, 
not directly sued on but indirectly 
set up in the suit. 

Q. — We would ask for anything 
that affects the case. 

A. — I can not read the letter and 
separate it; of my own personal 
knowledge; I don't think it would 
affect any one for me to read the 
letter. 

Q. — We do not want to do any- 
thing to oppose anybody. 

A. — I don't think it would affect 
anything so far as it could affect any- 
thing in litigation and the consent 
of the Legislature has been asked 
to litigate the other part of the mat- 
ter. (Reads letter October 20 and 
letter of October 21, 1911; also letter 
addressed to Mr. I. H. Kempner, Oc- 
tober 21, 1911; also letter addressed 
to Mr. Jonathan Lane, Houston, 
Texas.) 

Sugar Land, Texas, Oct. 20, 1911. 
Mr. Ben E. Cabell, Chairman Board 

of Prison Commissioners, Hunts- 

ville, Texas. 

My Tear Sir; I am enclosing you 
herewith, triplicate copies of the con- 
tracts that we propose to enter into 
with your board, and you will note 
changes, as follows: 

CONTRACT FOR HAULING HAR- 
LEM CANE. 

Page 1, Article 1. 

"and to deliver the same at the 
sugar mill on said farm loaded on 
the cars." 

"party of the second part hereby 
agrees to pay to the said parties 
of the first part at Sugar Land, 
Texas," 

"by the party of the second part 
at convenient points along said line 
of railroad loaded on the cars." 



CONTRACT FOR PURCHASE OF 
RAMSEY CANE. 

Page 2, 1st Paragraph — 

"and said cane so to be delivered 

shall be paid for at Sugar Land, 

Texas." 

LEASE CONTRACT. 

Page 2, Article 1 — 

"said sum to be paid as the crop 
on said premises is gathered and mar- 
keted, and not later than the 31st 
day of December each year." 

"provided that the aggregate acre- 
age to be cultivated shall not ex- 
ceed 2500 acres." 

Page 2, Article 2 — 

"now being worked on the prem- 
ises herein to be leased at a price 
to be agreed on by the parties here- 
to, this option, however, to be ex- 
ercised before the 1st day of Decem- 
ber, 1911, and the said lessors shall 
also have the right to use the said 
mules until the crops now growing 
on the premises are all harvested." 

Page 3, Article 4 — 

"In the event of a disastrous 
storm or flood over which the les- 
sees have no control." 

The above changes having been 
suggested by Mr. I. H. Kempner. 

And, so far as the leasing of the 
place is concerned, that, of 'course, 
is submitted to you with the under- 
standing that we agree on the quan- 
tity and price of implements that 
you will take off our hands. 

The contract for the movement and 
handling of the Harlem cane is also 
submitted with the understanding 
that you and Mr. Brahan will write 
Mr. Kempner and myself a letter, 
stating that you will vote and recom- 
mend to the prison board that they 
donate the right of way, 100 feet 
in width, to the Sugar Land Railway 
when this extension is put under the 
jurisdiction of the Railway Commis- 
sion, and also the necessary land for 
sidetracks. 

We hope that the small changes 
we have made will meet with your 
approval, and would be very glad to 
hear from you on receipt of this. 
Yours very truly, 

Vice Pres. and Gen. Mgr. 
E-G 

Enclosure. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



221 



Law Office of 

Lane, Wolters & Story 

Houston, Texas. 

October 21, 1911. 
Mr. W. T. Eldridge, 

Sugar Land, Texas. 
Dear Sir: I have your favor of 
the 2 0th inst., enclosing contract for 
hauling the Harlem cane, contract 
for hauling the Ramsey cane, and 
lease contract. I have noted the 
changes outlined in the letter as 
made in said several contracts, and 
agree to the same. 

The Board of Prison Commission- 
ers is ready to execute the contract 
as enclosed in said letter. 

We have executed the contract for 
hauling th Harlem cane, and also far 
the purchase of the Ramsey cane, 
and the same are ready for ycu to 
execute. 

We will take up with you the ques- 
tions of the purchase of the imple- 
ments just as soon as we can get 
it, which we hope to do within a 
very short time. 

Yours truly, • 
(Signed) BEX E. CABELL, 

Chairman Prison Com. 

Law Office of 

Lane, Wolters & Story 

Houston, Texas. 

October 21, 1911. 
Messrs. I. H. Kempner and W. T. 
Eldridge, 

Sugar Land, Texas. 
Gentlemen: Answering your let- 
ter of October 11th, wherein you 
state, "The contract for the moving 
and handling of the Harlem cane is 
also submitted, with the understand- 
ing that you and Mr. Brahan will 
write Mr. Kempner and myself a let- 
ter stating that you will vote and 
recommend to the Prison Board that 
they donate the right-of way, 100 
feet in width, to the Sugar Land 
Railway when this extension is put 
under the jurisdiction of the Rail- 
way Commission, and also the neces- 
sary land for sidetracks," we beg to 
say that we will, when the road on 
the Harlem farm is conveyed to an 
incorporated railroad company and 
put under the jurisdiction of the 
Railway Commission of Texas, vote 
to convey to said railway the right- 
of-way on said Harlem farm 100 feet 
in width, and also the necessary land 
for side tracks on said farm. 
Yours very truly, 
(Signed) BEN E. CABELL, 
R. YV. B RAH AX. 
Louis W. Tittle, Finance Commis- 



sioner; Robt. W. Brahan, Farm Com- 
missioner; J. A. Palmer, Secretary; 
J. E. Stubblefield, Assistant Secre- 
tary. 

Office of 

Board of Prison Commissioners, 
Huntsville, Texas. May 7, 1912. 
Mr. Johnathan Lane. Houston. Texas. 

Dear Sir. — Your letter of April 16 
came duly to hand, but a reply has 
been delayed on account of absence of 
the several members or the Commis- 
sion from their offices. 

While your letter is addressed to 
the Prison Commission, its subject 
matter refers to an agreement that 
was made by Messrs. Cabell and 
Brahan individually, and which was 
not the act of the Commission; hence 
we reply individually and not as the 
Commission. 

Replying to your request that the 
Commission execute a deed to a right- 
of-way across the Harlem farm, we 
beg to say that we have not pre- 
sented the matter to the Commission 
and, as the expenses incident to build- 
ing a certain railroad extension and 
side track across the Harlem State 
farm is now in litigation we prefer 
not to present this matter to the Com- 
mission, or have the Commission take 
any action with reference thereto 
until this litigation is terminated. 

In addition to this we are not satis- 
fied that the Sugar Land Railroad 
Company has met the conditions of 
our promise with respect to this ex- 
tension across the Harlem State farm. 
Our promise to recommend to the 
Prison Commission and the Gover- 
nor to make a deed to the right-of- 
way to the Sugar Land Railroad Com- 
pany across the Harlem State farm, 
was based upon the condition that 
said railroad extension should be a 
part of a common carrier and should 
be under the jurisdiction of the 
Railroad Commission. We are not 
satisfied that this has been done. On 
the contrary, the reports that come 
to us are to the effect that the rail- 
road extension mentioned in your let- 
ter is not performing the functions 
of a common carrier, but that -its 
service is entirely unsatisfactory in 
every respect. 

Yours truly, 

(Signed) BEN E. CABELL, 

R. W. BRAHAN. 

Board of Prison Commissioners, 
Huntsville, Texas. 
Gentlemen: Yours of the 7th inst., 
signed by Messrs. Cabell and Brahan 



222 



Report and Findings of 



of your Board, received this morn- 
ing. 

I was in hopes that you would, in 
a cheerful and proper manner, carry 
out the express promise of two of 
your Board, including your Chairman, 
and convey the right-of-way re- 
quested. 

The reasons assigned for not per- 
forming your agreement, it seems to 
me, are trivial and without weight, — 
more subterfuges — indicating a lack 
of purpose to comply with your 
promise. 

We, of course, know that Messrs-. 
Cabell and Brahan do not constitute 
the entire Board, as suggested by 
you, but we know they do constitute 
two-thirds of it, and could have, if 
they wanted to, put through a resolu- 
tion to do as they promised to do. 

The Sugar Land Railway is a rail- 
road corporation; is under control of 
the Railroad Commission, and by 
every law of Texas and by the com- 
mon law is a common carrier, and 
bound to perform the duties as such, — 
your statement to the contrary, not- 
withstanding. The mere fact that 
Mr. Eldridge desires you to pay for 
a track which you agreed to pay for, 
and insists upon your doing so, is no 
reason why you should not carry out 
your promise in this matter. Since, 
however, you decline to do so, we 
will have to endeavor to take some 
other course to secure the rights of 
the railway company. 

Yours trulv, 
(Copy) 
JL — EGM. 

Mr. W. T. Eldridge: I just want- 
ed you gentlement to see how we 
have suffered at the hands of the 
Commissioners at the expense of 
the State without any profit by them, 
could not possibly profit the business; 
here is the contract, the cane con- 
tract and the Harlem contract; here 
is the other contract that is referred 
to (reads the following letter) : 

A. — In November, Mr. Lane got a 
letter notifying them that they would 
not take the place. 

Q. — That was never operated by the 
State, then? 

A. — It had not been operated under 
the share contract, but they would 
lease it out under a monetary con- 
sideration, but it left us with that 
big -place on our hands without a free 
labor cabin on the place, after agree- 
ing that Mr. Cabell's letter accepting 



the changes while the place was 
turned back on our hands there, with 
twenty-five or thirty thousand tons 
of frozen cane to move off and 
sorghum, and the place run down. 

Q. — You are familiar with cane 
growing, you have been in that busi- 
ness several years? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have been in that 
business several years, I have been 
raising it for quite a little while. 

Q. — There are certain estimates 
which are, of course, arbitrary as to 
the losses the State sustained by rea- 
son of -the freeze. Are you familiar 
enough with the several State farms 
and the amount of acreage in cane 
to give us your opinion as to the 
estimate of loss ? 

A. — I could on the Imperial place 
and the Cunningham place. 

Q. — What would it figure per acre? 

A. — Well, the Imperial place had 
a very poor crop on it that year, but 
the Cunningham place had an ex- 
cellent crop, also the Ramsey place 
had an excellent crop. 

Q. — What would be your estimate 
of the loss excepting the Clemens 
farm? 

A. — What the State lost over there 
that year? 

Q.— Yes. 

A. — I don't think it would exceed 
over $100,000. 

Q. — Are you allowing for the ex- 
pense the State was put to in making 
the crop ? And also taking the frozen 
cane off? 

A. — No, sir; I am not allowing for 
that. I am allowing for what I 
would consider the value of the cane 
they lost. 

Q. — In other words, what they 
would have gotten out of it. 

A. — If they had saved it, yes, sir, 
for those three places I speak of. 

Q. — How many men did you have 
on the Cunningham farm? 

A. — We had a little bunch of a 
little less than 200 men on the Cun- 
ningham farm. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the op- 
tion the State has on some twenty- 
thousand acres of land? 

A. — No, sir. I know they have got 
some options on some very valuable 
land and what their prices are, I 
don't know. 

Q. — Have the prices of land in that 
district advanced recently? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



223 



Q. — Do you know anything about 
the purchase of any new mules or 
other things like that? 
A. — No, sir. 
Q.— Material ? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You are not familiar with those 
things ? 

A. — No, sir; only from hearsay. 
Q. — We are trying to find out if 
we can the direct cause of the present 
financial condition of the penitentia- 
ries, if it has been a lack of diligence 
on the part of the State's repre- 
sentatives, we would like to know 
it; if it has been through causes that 
could not be avoided, we would like 
to know it and we want you, as a 
citizen, to assist us in arriving at 
these facts and we would like to have 
your suggestions, we knowing you 
are a man of valuable experience in | 
farming in that country, we would 
like to have your experience and your 
advice and assistance in any way 1 
you have of telling us, so that you 
may help us and the Legislature to [ 
get the farms' part of our present 
industry on a paying basis, if possi- 
ble. The Clemens farm, for instance, 
shows a loss of $37,229.04, and on 
the Ramsey farm $40,189.22, and we 
would like to arrive at an explanation 
for these losses and I would like ' 
very much for you to give the Com- 1 
mittee your suggestions. 

A. — I think to take my letter pub- 
lished last year direct to the Gov- 
ernor would express my views more | 
strongly than in any way. 

Q.— Do you think with the work 
limited, 10 hours as provided by the 
statute, you could work the convicts 
properly? 

A. — Well, I would say this: I 
would not have surrendered my con- 
tract, now some years you could 
work it profitably and some vou 
would not, but at the same time, I 
would back my judgment on it. 

Q- — Now, what is the reason our 
convicts are not doing a reasonable 
day's work? 

A. — Well, I don't know that I 
could state that positively, but I will 
give you my opinion for what it is 
worth. In the first place, a great 
many of the convicts at the begin- 
ing of the present administration, ; 
when I was — a fair percentage of j 
them were led to believe that they , 
were going to be paroled, a great 
many of them made application to 



get out under parole, I had quite a 
! good many applications myself, and 
then the law requiring them to pay 
per diem, ten cents per day, my own 
judgment of it is now that the Com- 
missioners or State failing to pay that 
per diem dissatisfied the men very 
much, they have been in a very un- 
settled frame of mind; my experi- 
ence with free labor, especially a ne- 
i gro and a Mexican, and applying it to 
certain classes of white labor, that 
if you promise them something, be 
certain to give it to them, give it 
I to them, and if you can get a little 
ahead of their expectation and you 
, will keep them in a very good frame 
I of mind and you will get very much 
better results; in my experience in 
handling convicts' labor, I have gone 
1 frequently to the buildings to con- 
fer with the sergeant or some guard 
or certain bunch of convicts, I would 
select maybe one or two and I would 
scatter myself around among those 
and I would say to them, to Bill or 
John, or whatever his name is, and 
I would say, you take the lead now, 
do me good work and see that these 
boys don't destroy the crop and I will 
give you a dollar a week and I want 
to see this crop come up, and would 
see that nigger begin to sing and 
the whole bunch would be in a good 
humor; you have got to give them a 
little incentive to work and you will 
get better results by that method 
than by driving them; the fact of the 
State not paying that per diem is one 
of the greatest mistakes the State 
has ever made and I have heard that 
the men are trading and trafficing in 
their per diem, offering to take and 
sell it for 25 per cent, on the dollar. 
I have heard that they are offering 
to trade, I will qualify that by say- 
ing that I don't know that any trades 
have been made but I have heard that 
several times, and I think it is a very 
great mistake that the system ever 
got into such a condition. The men 
are in a distressed state of mind, 
they have been disappointed and it 
is going to take good work to get 
them all right. 

Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
trades of that kind being made? 
A. — I only heard of it being made. 
Q. — You never heard of a trade 
being made? 

A. — I would not say anything, I 
am rather of the impression that 
some have been made but I could 
not say positively. 



224 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Do you know of any case 
where any of the employes of the 
State have advanced money to the 
convicts? 

A. — No, sir; I do not. 

Q. — With your experience in hand- 
ling convict labor, do you think a 
reasonable day's work can be got- 
ten out of convicts without the use 
of a weapon? 

A. — Many of them can; there may 
be a small percentage that really a 
whipping would do good, when it 
comes to that, it is a small percent- 
age of them though; I think that 
ninety-nine per cent, of them can be 
handled without it. 

Q. — That small per cent, should 
not be a material cause as to the 
loss of revenue now on our farms? 

A. — No, no, certainly not, if you 
give a negro or anybody else, it will 
apply to anybody, send him to work, 
give him something to look forward 
to, if he knows he is going to get 
something if he gets good results, 
there is only a small percentage of 
them that wont give it to you. 

Q. — (Interrogated by Lieutenant 
Governor Mayes) : Referring to your 
letter to me, published in the Sun- 
day's paper, is there any further 
suggestion you wish to offer in con- 
nection with your plans outlined 
there for the improvement of the sys- 
tem? 

A. — It would require a great deal 
of detail work to figure that out 
and you can do that on a small scale 
to begin with and I think my plan 
would make the system very much 
more profitable than it is now, and 
there are many manufacturing enter- 
prises along that line not necessary 
to come in contact with free labor 
in any way that can be put in by 
the system and made very profitable 
to the system and this money be 
made on the project and it would 
not require any great outlay to start 
it off at one of these places; I think 
if I was the State of Texas own- 
ing four thousand or a part of them, 
I would not take it up in piece-meal. 
I would go at in in a business-like 
way and do it in the way as I in- 
formed you gentlemen in my letter 
to you. If you will come to Sugar 
Land and let me show you in a small 
way, I can show you more there in 
two hours than I can tell you here in 
a week, and I believe I can demon- 
strate it to you it is feasible and 
that it will become very profitable, 
I have a great number of letters I 



recently wrote to every governor in 
the United States asking for an ex- 
pression from them and a copy of 
their prison laws and any sugges- 
tion they would like to make; I got 
some very nice letters, especially from 
many of the wardens. This certain- 
ly shows the trend of mind, and re- 
cently the State of Ohio passed a 
law that is going to allow the con- 
victs a portion of their earnings and 
I think the plan is practicable and 
simple, when put in operation. If I 
was gong to start up in the opera- 
tion of such a thing, the first I would 
start with would be to start me a 
first class brick yard manufacturing 
brick and tile outfit for roofing, and 
that would not be very expensive 
to put in. 

Q. — Do you think it feasible to use 
convict guards to any extent? 

A. — I think it would be a dis- 
grace to Texas. 

Q. — You mean to use convicts as 
overseers? 

A. — Th6re might be occasionally a 
man you could pick out. 

Q. — It has been stated to us that 
the State of Mississippi on the farms 
they are very successful in operating, 
that they use convict guards very 
extensively. 

A. — I have a copy of their law 
and that is a fact. 

Q. — And they have been success- 
ful? 

A. — So I understand, yes sir; my 
idea of' it is why should you ta^e 
that risk for that man would earn 
fully as much as would the free man 
and why would it be necessary to 
take the risk? 

Q. — Another question: from your 
acquaintance with the employes of 
the penitentiary system, from the 
farm managers down, are most of 
them in sympathy with the present 
methods of governing the peniten- 
tiary or not? 

A. — The general impression I have, 
i would say they are not, because 
they are not permitted, as they in- 
form me, to get anything like a de- 
cent day's work out of them. 

Q. — What do you mean by per- 
mitted? 

A. — They just say they have got 
to obey orders and they can not 
work the men. 

Q. — The Commissioners don't al- 
low them to work the men? 

A. — Don't allow them to get a day's 
work out of them. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



225 



Q. — Do thev give anv reason for j 
:hat? 

A. — Well, no, they never explained 
that to me. 

Q. — What would he the explana- 
tion of that? 

A. — I could not tell you what the 
explanation would be. 

Q. — What would be your explana- 
tion of a statement of that kind? 

A. — That they are not permitted 
to get a day's work out of them? 

Q. — Yes? 

A. — Well, I just feel this way about 
it from my personal experience, that 
the Commissioners themselves are 
not just simply good judges of the 
way to handle labor and to get the 
results from them, that would be my 
explanation. 

Q. — It is not that the Commission- 
ers don't want the day's work done? 

A.— I think they are doing the 
best that they can. 

Q. — But don't know how to get it? 

A. — I think it is that, I think that 
is it; I will tell you what I saw last 
year with my own eyes on the Im- 
perial place. I saw men having a 
regular pitched battle, playing with 
cotton bolls, throwing the cotton 
bolls, destroying the cotton bolls. 

Q. — Anybody making any effort to 
stop it? 

A. — Xo. they were just having a 
general frolic there, and if anybody 
said anything. I did not hear it. They 
could have said something without 
my hearing it. The same bunch of 
men on Sundav at noon. shortly 
afterwards, walked out of the build- 
ing. 

Q. — Which one of the camps was 
that on the Imperial farm? 

A. — T believe they call it Xo. 3 
camp. 

Q. — In selecting these men who 
have charge of the convicts, is it your 
observation they are selected with 
reference to their merit or favoritism? 

A. — How is that? 

Q. — In selecting these men who 
have direct charge of the convicts, 
and which men ought to secure a 
reasonable service out of the convicts, 
is it your observation that these se- 
lections and employments of men are 
made strictly with reference to merit, 
or would it be made upon a svstem 
of i'avoriteism or politics, if you 
please? 

A. — Well. I have been informed by 
some of the men that were dis- 
charged, that the men are personally 
sought. I knew a few very competent 



men in the convict business who did 
not vote right at the election last 
year, who lost their jobs. 

Q. — We have been informed. Mr. 
Eldridge, that the average number of 
acres per man under our present 
system of work, would not exceed 
eleven acres to the man. what would 
you think one man ought to culti- 
vate, doing a reasonable service on 
such land as 3~ou have down there 
under the present law. with just 
straight time and not a little over- 
time occasionally? 

A. — I think he ought to cultivate 
seventeen or eighteeft acres of land. 

Q. — Didn't he formally cultivate 
more than that? 

A. — I think they generally con- 
sidered twenty acres to the man is 
my impression, but just how much is 
cultivated. I don't know. I always 
figured on about twenty acres to the 
man. 

Q. — You are familiar with the gen- 
eral method of punishment? 

A. — I can not say I am familiar 
with it, I know of it. I have seen it 
practiced, chaining their hands up, I 
have seen that recently. 

Q. — Do you think that quite as 
severe as the bat? 

A. — I think it is much more severe, 
because a man that is not very par- 
ticular and happens to have a little 
feeling against the particular 
convict he is punishing, he 
might not give him just enough t 
rest. I think that and the dark cell 
is about the worst mode of punish- 
ment that I know of that could be 
inflicted on the men. I think the 
dark cell is just worse than inhuman, 
because as the law first stated, you 
can carry it out and keep a man in 
there seven days. 

Q— What do you think of the 
nolicy of working white convicts on 
the farms? 

A. — Lots of them can be worked 
successfully, you have got to be a 
judge of your man there, there is 
lots of good farmers among white 
men; many of the white convicts I 
would prefer on the farms than most 
any manufacturing enterprise you 
can start, we have some darkies at 
Pugar Land that have been working 
for me for twelve or fourteen years, 
they are just excellent help, and I 
feel like if I want to work at night 
in the refinery and get some things 
through, I can call them out and I 
know they will be there at 6 o'clock 
at night. 



226 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — While we are on that point, I 
would like to ask you if there is any- 
thing in the climatic condition in the 
country around the Imperial or the 
Ramsey farm or the Clemens farm 
that would make the location of the 
penitentiary there objectionable? 

A. — For a healthy man? 

Q. — In the health of climatic con- 
ditions. 

A. — No, sir; I would not think so, 
Governor. 

Q. — What do you consider the reas- 
onable market value of the land in 
the Brazos farm valley, with refer- 
ence to State farms, where they are 
located? 

A. — Well, that is a rather difficult 
question to answer because the value 
of these lands, a great deal of them, 
many tracts, would depend upon the 
location, but with railroad connec- 
tions, I would say one hundred dol- 
lars an acre is reasonable, that is, 
suitable for cultivation in the Brazos 
valley. 
Examination of Mr. Bassett Blakely. 

Conducted by Senator Willacy: 

Q. — You used to own what is 
known as the Ramsey farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many acres? 

A. — About 8000. 

Q. — Did you sell that or a part 
of it to the State? 

A. — Yes, sir; all of it. 

Q. — When was that sold? 

A.— In 1907. 

Q. — How long had you owned it? 

A. — Over two years. I bought it 
in 1905. 

Q. — Had you operated that place 
before selling it to the State? 

A. — Yes, farmed it two years. 

Q. — Under what conditions? 

A. — One year Under free labor, 
and in 1907 had a contract force. 

Q. — Would you mind telling what 
you paid for it? 

A. — Five dollars an acre. 

Q. — Between the time you pur- 
chased it and sold, it, had you im- 
proved it any? 

A. — Yes, I had cleared land, erect- 
ed convict buildings and barns. 

Q. — At your own expense? 

A. — Yes. 

Q. — What price did you receive 
from the State? 

A. — $13.75 an acre. 

Q. — Who was at that time Chair- 
man of the Penitentiary Board? 

A. — Judge Ramsey. 



Q. — Who represented the State in 
the negotiations for the land? 

A. — Judge Ramsey. He made sev- 
eral trips over it with me. 

Q. — Between the time you pur- 
chased the land and the date you 
sold it to the State, was there any 
increase in value? 

A. — Yes, land had increased in 
value all over Texas. I sold lands 
the same year that I had bought at 
the same price, for $15 per acre. 

Q. — Where did those lands lie rel- 
ative to the Ramsey farm? 

A. — I sold two tracts just north of 
the Ramsey farm for $15. 

Q. — Was that about the same 
time you sold this land to the State? 

A. — Yes, just about the same time. 

Q. — Was there anybody interested 
in the purchase from a money stand- 
point? 

A. — Yes; D. H. Kempner of Gal- 
veston had an interest in the land. 

Q. — Was that property "handled in 
your individual names, or as a com- 
pany? 

A. — It was a corporation at the 
time. I had some stock in the cor- 
poration. The corporation trans- 
ferred it to the State. 

Q. — Have you the deeds with you 
showing when you purchased the 
land? 

A. — Yes, it was deeded to me on 
the 26th day of May, 1905. 

Q. — Would you mind showing us 
the deed? 

A. — No, sir. (Hands over deed.)" 

Q. — I notice it was filed for rec- 
ord on the 15th of June, 1905. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Does this deed include all 
the lands then sold afterwards to the 
State? 

A. — It included a little more. 

Q. — Did you sell any more land 
to the State? 

A. — Yes, a little more. 

Q. — That is all the land included 
in the transaction that you sold to 
the State? 

A. — I sold another little tract. 

Q. — Do you mind telling the Com- 
mittee what you paid for that? 

A. — About the same price. I went 
before the Penitentiary Board and 
showed them my authority. 

Q. — After you went before the 
Board did you buy any more land? 

A. — I didn't buy any more land 
after I sold this to the State. 

Q. — We understand, Mr. Blakely, 
that at the time you entered into 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



the transaction with the State, that 
you didn't buy any more land to 
enter into this transaction? 

A. — No. 

Q. — Would you mind telling the 
Committee if anyone received any 
commission or compensation for sell- 
ing this land? 

A. — Not a nickel. I will make 
affidavit that no one received a nickel 
commission. 

Q. — What were the lands in that 
immediate neighborhood selling for 
at that time. 

A. — If I hadn't made a deal with 
the State, I could have gotten $15 
per acre. 

Q. — What were the terms of the 
sale? 

A. — They didn't agree to pay me 
any cash, but 40 per cent of the' 
crop; but the next year they paid 
me. I bought this land in February 
from a New York company. I put 
up $5 000 for it some time in June, 
1905, then put up $5000 more and 
got a deed. I had operated it near- 
ly two years before selling to the 
State. They took my crop and 
everything, and paid me back my 
pay roll. I had been paying the 
men $21 per month. They gave me 
back what I had spent for labor. 

Q. — There was some contract to 
build a railroad through that land, 
was there not? 

A. — Yes. 

Q. — Was there a condition in the 
contract that if the road was not 
built, that the State was to receive 
compensation in some way? 

A. — Yes, I gave bond that if the 
road was not built at a certain time, 
I was to forfeit $15,000. The com- 
pany broke, and the work stopped. 
I then forfeited the $15,000. I cred- 
ited it on the note. 

Q. — The State has an option on 
some small tract near Ramsey, have 
they not? 

A. — I have another place near 
Ramsey, known as the Jackson 
place. 

Q. — Have they an option on that? 

A.— Yes. 

Q. — At what price? 

A. — $40 per acre. You can't buy 
any land there now for that price. 

A. — Leaving Ramsey farm and 
coming to Harlem, you have a tract 
lying near there? 

A. — Yes. 

Q. — How many acres in that tract? 

A. — 3100 acres. 



Q. — How many acres in cultiva- 
tion? 

A. — 2400 acres. 

Q. — What were the conditions of 
the lease? 

A. — They agreed to pay me $15,- 
000 a year, I to furnish all mules, 
implements and everything used on 
the farm. 

Q. — I notice a great many im- 
provements in the way of buildings, 
etc. Were they made by you? 

A. — I built every one of them. 
They were all furnished by me. 

Q. — What were the terms of the 
lease? 

A. — The State agreed to pay me 
$15,000 or one-fourth of the crop. 

Q. — You mean one-fourth of the 
crop and you were to furnish all 
mules and everything? 

A. — Yes. They were to notify me 
by the 1st of July what they would 
do, whether one-fourth of the crop 
or money. 

Q. — Has the State an option on 
that land? 

A. — Yes. 

Q. — At what price? 

A. — $90 per acre. 

Q. — Would you mind telling the 
Committee if anybody whatever has 
an interest in the purchase of that 
land except yourself and the State? 

A. — No, sir; the entire considera- 
tion will go direct to me. No part 
of it to anyone else. 

Q. — Has there been any proposi- 
tion made to you on the part of 
those representing the State in the 
transaction involving the sale of the 
land, that you would pay any money 
to get the sale through? 

A. — No; no proposition has ever 
been made. 

Q. — Have you any other lands here, 
except the tracts we have discussed? 

A. — Yes, I have 480 acres north of 
the Harlem farm, and 1000 acres 
north of Imperial farm. 

Q. — Is the State operating: this 
farm now? 

A. — Yes, they agreed to give me 
$5 an acre on the 1000 acres of land 
adjoining Imperial farm. They have 
been giving me $7000 or one-fourth 
of the crop. I to furnish 50 mules 
and 10 horses. 

Q. — Are there any improvements 
on that land ? 

A. — Yes, some residences. 

Q. — How much of that 1000 acres 
is in cultivation? 

A.— All of it. 



228 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — The State has an option to pay 
one-fourth of the crop? 

A. — Yes, and they have an option 
to purchase the land at $90 per acre. 
I have been offered $100 in the last 
four months. 

Q. — How long does the lease run? 

A. — It runs three years after this. 

Q. — How long does the lease run 
on the large tract? 

A. — The same time, five years, with 
an option to renew the lease five more 
years. 

Q. — The State has erected no im- 
provements on any of the properties ? 

A. — No, they have all been made 
by me. 

Q. — They have an option to pur- 
chase at any time? 

A.— Yes. 

Q. — Does the option state any 
particular terms of payment? 

A. — Yes. One-fourth cash, balance 
yearly payments, five or six per cent 
interest. 

Q. — Would you mind telling whether 
or not you would sell? 

A. — Yes. I would sell it to them. 

Q. — At what price? 

A. — I would have to think about 
that a little bit. 

Q. — Will you state to the Com- 
mittee from whom you purchased 
the land known as the Ramsey plan- 
tation ? 

A. — From the Equity Securities 
Company. They were a New York 
corporation doing business here and 
in New York. 

Q. — Do you know how long they 
had owned the land before you pur- 
chased it? 

A. — Yes. I think they owned it 
eight or ten years. 

Q. — After you purchased it from 
the Equity Securities Company of 
New York, how long before you sold 
it to the Chenango Plantation Com- 
pany? 

A. — A year before I deeded it to 
the State. 

Q. — Did the Chenango Plantation 
Company sell any other land to the 
State than this? 

A. — No, that was all. 

Q. — Do you know whether there 
were any negotiations between the 
State and any members of the Shen- 
ango Plantation Company? 

A. — No, sir; there wasn't any. They 
never offered to sell it to anybody. 



Q. — How many acres in this tract. 

A. — If I remember right, there was 
about seven thousand some odd acres 
in the tract I sold them. 

Q. — Was there a survey of the land 
made? 

A. — Yes, the land was surveyed so 
the State could understand just what 
lands they had purchased, and I 
offered them the survey. 



TUESDAY, MAY 20, 1913, AT 
HOUSTON, TEXAS. 

Testimony of Judge W. H. Gill. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — Give your name in full to the 
stenographer. 

A.— W. H. Gill, Houston, Texas. 

Q. — Have you now any connection 
with the penitentiary system? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You have no connection what- 
ever with it? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you ever had? 

A. — I was chairman of the peniten- 
tiary board from January, 1907, until 
Governor Colquitt came into office — 
over three years. 

Q. — During that period did the 
State purchase the Ramsey farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — While you were chairman of 
the Board? 

A. — Yes, sir; but that requires 
some explanation. Just before I 
went on the Board, but after Camp- 
bell was elected, the Board of Peni- 
tentiary Commissioners leased the 
farm the Chenango people, and in 
that lease was an option to purchase 
the land at a fixed price within a 
given time. After I went on the 
Board the option to purchase was 
exercised, and the purchase was 
made. 

Q._Who did the State buy this 
Ramsey farm from? 

A. — The Chenango Plantation Co., 
which was really Bassett Blakely and 
Kempner of Galveston. 

Q. — What did the State pay for 
this land? 

A.— $13.75, I think. 

Q. — Do you know how long they 
owned that land before the State 
purchased it? 

A. — No, sir; I don't know. We got 
our deed direct from them. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



229 



Q. — Did they not agree to build 
a railroad across the land? 

A. — They agreed to build a rail- 
road from Anchor to the prison on 
the farm. 

Q. — If they did not build the road, 
what were they to do ? 

A. — They were to forfeit to us 
$15,000, if they did not build the 
railroad. 

Q. — The building of the railroad 
was an important question to the 
State, was it not? 

A. — Yes, sir; $15,000 was what was 
written in the contract, and they were 
to build the railroad and own it. 

Q. — Did they not build the rail- 
road? 

A. — They did build the railroad. 
They preferred to forfeit the $15,000. 
and we own it. 

Q— Did the State build it? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q— What did it cost the State? 
A. — 1 would have to approximate 
it. We figured everything, including 
labor at 50 cents per day, or per- 
haps a little more, that it cost us 
between $48,000 and $50,000 — some- 
where along there. 

Q.— I think the books show $63,000. 
Is that correct? 

A. — I don't know whether or not 
that is correct, but I think it is a mis- 
take. 

Q. — In the purchase of that land 
by the State from these parties, was 
it not because the vendors were to 
build the railroad through there that 
induced the State to buy the land? 

A. — It was not an inducement to 
buy the land, but we would not have 
paid this price unless the railroad 
was built there. 

Q. — But it would have cost them 
an v where between $40,000 and $50,- 
000 to build the road, and it was 
better for them to pay the $15,000 
rather than build the road? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — The State built the seven miles 
of railroad? 
A. — Yes. sir. 

Q. — What became of that road? 
A. — It was sold to Mr. Eldridge and 
his associates. 

Q. — Can you tell the Committee at 
what price? 
A.— $32,500. 

Q. — Was that considered good value 
al that time? 

A. — Yes, sir. I expect I had better 
make an explanation that will go into 
the records. We did not discover 



Bassett Blakely and Kempner would 
not build the road until we had 
barely time left to build it in time to 
save our cane crop, and we 
had a good cane crop that sea- 
son, and we employed, engineers 
to make the surveys, and we 
bent every energy to have the road 
built so as to get the cane crop out. 
The ties for the railroad were cut 
anywhere near the right of way, and 
we took anything that would last 
one year. We had to do this as the 
season was very wet, and it was hard 
to get the timber out of the woods 
on the flat lands there. The bridges 
were not built of good material, and 
the rails were second hand rails. 

Q. — Please state the weight of the 
rails. 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — Would they weigh as much as 
fifty pounds? 

A. — I 'don't know. I have been 
over the road and seen it, but I 
don't know how to guess at these 
things. Well, now, I suppose in this 
connection, it would be well enough 
to state whv the road was sold. As 
stated at the beginning, we did not 
want to own the road or build it, be- 
cause we did not t-iink it would pay 
to keep the equipment and crew and 
rolling stock with a road only seven 
miles long. I don't believe any busi- 
ness concern would want to do it. 
We could not get the I. & G. N. to do 
that because it was too far to run 
in engines to use on that line. After 
we were compelled to build the road, 
Mr. Eldridge made the proposition 
to buy it, and my recollection of it 
was he offered $25,000 or that was 
what he first offered. That offer, how- 
ever, brought on negotiations. We did 
not want to keep the road, but we 
wanted to get good terms for it, and 
it was also necessary that the road be 
built further through the plantations, 
which contained about 8000 acres. 
Mr. Brahan states: 7,800 acres. 
A. — So we finally sold it to Mr. 
Eldridge for $32,500, making at 
the same time a contract with 
him covering a period of five 
j years for the sale of the cane 
we raised on the farm at a 
price we regarded as a good price, 
and obliged him to extend the line 
j through the farm a distance of about 
j two miles on our property, and to 
; maintain and operate the road under 
I the terms which are set out in the 
id itself. He was also to main 



230 



Eeport and Findings of 



tain a connection at Anchor until 
he established this other connection, 
which he contemplated establishing 
when he purchased the road, and I 
understand he did that. That is, 
it was not interrupted until this 
other connection was made. In ad- 
dition to that, we agreed with him, 
and he with us, that he should use 
the labor that we could spare from 
the farms at times when the labor 
was not absolutely necessary to work 
the crops, in clearing the additional 
mileage through the farm. My rec- 
ollection is we let him have this 
labor at a little less than $1 per 
day, and therefore less than the cur- 
rent price for the use of the con- 
vie ts, but we figured that, they would 
be used at times when we did not 
absolutely need them on the farms, 
we could well afford to make that 
trade with him, and make it part of 
the bargain for the sale of the road. 
Now, 1 will make this general com- 
ment as expressing my view-point 
and the view-point of my associates 
in the sale of that road. As I al- 
ready said, it was clear to my mind 
we could not operate it as cheaply 
as a regular railroad could, and 
really it would be good business pol- 
icy, if we could not do any better, 
to turn the road over to another 
company to operate it rather than 
undertake to do it ourselves. As 
1 expressed it before, I felt if we 
could sell this road for anything like 
a substantial price, that we would 
have a railroad and escape the bur- 
den and expense of the operation, 
and I have understood since that 
time it is not unusual for business 
concerns to surrender the use of a 
track or spur, or even deed it with- 
out consideration to a railroad com- 
pany, in order that they might get 
it operated into their business plant. 
I will say in this connection I had 
a recent experience of that sort as 
a lawyer. A large lumber concern 
made a contract with a client of 
mine whereby they deeded to my 
client thirty-four miles of standard 
guage railroad already built. They 
had no connection with the trunk 
line at either end. They deeded it 
without money and without price, 
and solely on his undertaking to 
connect up that thirty-four miles 
with a trunk of railroad at each end, 
thus extending the track through 
other properties of the lumber com- 
pany. That is about the situation 



| we were in. The railroad at the time 
: we sold it was in bad shape because 
J of the cheap ties we had put in it 
and the hasty methods of construc- 
tion was beginning to show up just 
as we knew it would turn out, and 
we had already ascertained it was 
an expensive thing to operate, and 
so far as I am individually concerned, 
if the road had cost $75,000 to build 
the seven miles, I would have taken 
$30,000 or $25,000 if I could not 
have gotten any more. 

Q. — Now, at the time the State 
owned it, and before the State sold 
I it, the road extended to Anchor? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And that gave the Ramsey 
I cane an outlet by way of Anchor to 
our own sugar mills down on the 
mens place? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — But when the railroad was 
■ sold and that part between the farm 
and Anchor was discontinued, now 
that prevented the State from send- 
ing cane to our own sugar mill? 

A. — Yes, sir; we knew that. It 
was a much more roundabout way 
to ship it to the Clemens if the con- 
nection was discontinued. 

Q. — The actual result was instead 
of shipping it to our own mill it was 
shipped to the T. W. House planta- 
tion? 

A. — Yes, sir. The truth of the 
matter is it was our purpose, and we 
so contracted to ship to Mr. Eldridge, 
reserving the privilege after two 
years to grind it ourselves, if we 
so desired. We were at that time 
engaged in extending the acreage on 
the Clemens farm, and we took a 
great deal of pains to drain the 
lands. 

Q. — That was on the Clemens 
farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. Some of our ditches 
are only fifty yards apart. The re- 
sult was to make the land very pro- 
ductive, and we were expecting a 
great increase of products and prac- 
tically to reach the limit of that 
mill. We really expected it would 
be only a question of time when a 
mill on the Ramsey farm would be 
necessary. 

Q. — Were you Chairman of the 
Board at the time they built the mill 
on the Clemens farm? 

A. — No, sir; that was built years 
and years before I became Chair- 
man. 



Penitentiaby Investigating Committee. 



231 



Q. — Is that a pretty modern mill? 

A. — It was at that time. The mill 
was practically rebuilt. The storm 
of 1909 blew the mill down and 
played "smash." The house was 
practically rebuilt, and the whole 
thing put in good shape. It was a 
good mill. 

Q. — Do you think it a good invest- 
ment to put money on the Clemens 
farm? 

A. — I don't know. It saved our 
life one year. 

Q. — In that connection, it has 
been stated there was only 1600 or 
1700 acres of land suited to cane 
growth. 

A. — I don't claim to be a cane ex- 
pert, but of course I experienced 
some things, and I differ with some 
people the kind of land cane can he 
raised on. The general impression 
is cane should be planted on red 
land, and that black land is not. suit- 
able. I notice some seasons th* 
black lands raise good cane. Now 
on the Harlem farm we had a small 
acreage we irrigated. The year we 
did not irrigate we made some eight 
to ten tons per acre. We put on 
water the following year from the 
Frost irrigation plant and raised 
some thirty to thirty-five tons to the 
acre on the black land. 

Q. — What was the amount of cane 
raised on the land you did not have 
irrigation on? 

A. — I think about ten, but we 
ought to have had fifteen tons to 
the acre. I think the irrigation will 
treble, and it will pay for itself in 
two years — maybe one. 

Q. — Can the Clemens farm be irri- 
gated ? 

A. — It is on the Brazos river and 
there is an enormous amount of 
water there. Now on the Harlem 
farm we figured on that, and there 
is no question about irrigation there. 
It is the simplest proposition for ir- 
rigation I know of. I advanced it 
after it was called to my attention, 
and we did not go any further with 
it. 

Q. — Were you Chairman of the 
Board when the lease system was in 
operation? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And you went out of office 
when? 

A. — January 11, 1910. 

Q. — Just about the time the new 
law went into effect? 

A. — No, sir; I understand the 



lease system should have been abol- 
ished in 1914. They were to give 
us three years to wipe out the lease 
system. Will say here that it was 
the policy of our administration and 
the preceding administration to abol- 
ish the lease system without refer- 
ence to the date fixed by law. I 
think now it was a mistake to have 
done it as it was done. The law 
ought to have done it in a different 
way. Under the lease system, the 
state housed its convicts, clothed its 
convicts, fed its convicts, and 
at its own expense, just like 
it does on its farms. They were 
handled by guards employed by the 
State, and they were under the con- 
trol of a sergeant controlled by the 
State, and it was up to the sergeant 
as to the whether and how many 
hours they should work, but there 
was always danger of abuse, and 
the owner of a plantation who was 
paying $31 per month for convicts 
had the temptation before him all 
the time to induce the guards to ) 
overwork the convicts, and there 
was that danger, whether it actually- 
occurred or not, that the guard or 
sergeant might be corrupted. That 
was the only harm I know of the- 
lease system while I was in office.. 
I know of occasions of overwork.. 
I know by hearsay there was some- 
pretty hard drivers, but at the same 
time I don't know if it exceeded then 
what free labor is forced to do in 
emergencies where they are threat- 
ened with a freeze or their crops 
are in the grass. I was raised on a 
farm and lived on a farm until I was 
21 years old, and I never saw a con- 
vict work any harder, when I was ' 
on the farm, or out in any worse 
weather — I never saw them work 
any harder than the free negro on 
the farm does. Now, in reference 
to the lease system, there was no 
reason why, if the lease system had 
been properly abandoned, the State 
might not have found ample work 
for their convicts on the farms, for 
there were plantation owners with 
land planted to cane, and other lands 
with other crops that the State 
could either have got for money rent 
or part of the crop. We worked the 
Sugar Land plantation that way when 
I went out of office, and they made 
it a paying proposition too, I think. 

Q. — How many men would that 
have taken care of? 

A. — That would have taken care 



232 



Report and Findings of 



of all the men they had left, and 
even more. 

Q. — Judge, why is the penitentiary 
system so much in the red? Of 
course, it is nothing new to you. 
I would like to have you, from your 
standpoint, give us your opinion as 
to the cause of that, and how, in 
your judgment, it could have been 
avoided, or might be in the future. 

A. — In the first place, I will elim- 
inate some things, so when I get to 
the real reason it will stand clear 
by itself. In the first place, I think 
the lire at Rusk and the fire at 
Huntsville added practically noth- 
ing to the figures on the red side. 
Certainly not more than was actu- 
ally expended in temporarily replac- 
ing the buildings up to now. I 
think if those fires had occurred ten 
years ago and those plants had not 
been rebuilt the system would have 
been less in the red. I think those 
places have been a dead expense be- 
cause none of those manufacturing 
departments have ever been opera- 
ted only at a loss, except the iron 
industry, and there is nothing to 
that. You take the manufacturing of 
machinery; a convict can't lose his 
job. and if he gets sullen and feels 
he has been treated wrong, just one 
stroke of the hammer will "queer" 
a piece of machinery, and you don't 
know when or how it will happen. 
If I was a convict 1 would not care 
myself. The consequences are they 
have never made stuff that appealed 
to the market, and not only that, 
but it can not be made economically. 
Another thing, at Huntsville, the as- 
sembling of the machinery and plants 
was not scientifically arranged, and 
if we had wanted to have gone on 
in the manufacture of anything it 
would have been economy to have 
built a new plant and reassembled 
the whole thing, just as private in- 
dividuals do in modern plants. 

Q. — You say that the plant was 
not assembled scientifically and eco- 
nomically, but let us concede the 
plant was put in there under the 
very best engineering skill possible, 
the State is in a different position 
from individual plants when we open 
the doors of our factories. Say we 
want a thousand men and we will 
take the first thousand men sent in. 
Now, the individual factory will say 
we want a thousand men of trained 
minds and ability, and we will not 
take any unless they have the expe- 



rience and ability. We are all 
bound to confess the State is not al- 
ways able to secure the trained 
mind to put in charge of its indus- 
tries. Now, can the State under 
these circumstances in getting 
trained men that the individuals can 
secure; that is, the State not being 
able to select them, can it compete 
in the market with an individual 
plant that can select skilled men? 
A. — I don't think so. 
Q. — I would like to have you state 
to the Committee right now your 
oipnion as to the business advisibility 

; of carrying on these several manu- 
facturing plants. 

A. — I think this; that the State 
ought not to cease making things in 
the walls because it is necessary to 

I keep some of the men in the walls, 

i and you can't afford to keep them in 
idleness. I think if Mr. Eldridge'e 
ideas of yesterday were carried out 
in detail and in charge of men able 
and masterful enough to do it right, 
it would be worth while. The point 
is, however, the State can afford to 
do things Mr. Eldridge suggests 
even at a small loss. That is: sup- 
plies for the convicts, such as shoes, 
clothing and making syrup for the 
convicts, etc. You have got to start 
out with the proposition you have 
got to have a wall, headquarters, and 
there are cripples, life time men, etc., 
not fit to work out of doors, and you 
have got to have your offices and 
departments there, and in that con- 
nection my idea is that both Rusk 
and Huntsville ought to be abandoned 
entirely as headquarters, and have 
one penitentiary, and that located in 
sight of the dome of the Capitol. It 
has occurred to me it is a good 
thing, and then the thousand things 
complained of against the peniten- 
tiary system would be less likely to 
come up and easier to handle because 
it would be easier of inspection. It 
would be under the eyes of the Gov- 

I ernor and he could send a man out 
every day to see if things were going 
on right. He could visit the peniten- 

; tiary himself once a week. 

Q. — Don't you think also that where 
these penitentiary plants are located 
in the small cities and retained there 
for several years, that the large per 
cent of the employees are necessarily 
residents of that community and 
probably related to each other; don't 
you think the sentiment of the com- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



233 



munity becomes a factor in the suc- 
cess of this institution which it would 
not be in a large city? 

A. — I think so, and it would not 
apply in, or near, a large city. 

Q. — Whenever there is local senti- 
ment it becomes political and when- 
ever it become political it is not a 
business industry? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now, you asked me 
to go ahead and tell why the depart- 
ment was in the red. I don't think 
the freeze of 1911 covers it because 
in the previous administration we met 
with a calamity equally as great. 
We figured conservatively that the 
storm of 1909 cost us in actual dol- 
lors and cents in the loss of crops and 
repairs in the neighborhood of $20,- 
000. We lost a saw mill and lumber 
on the State railroad near a station 
called Newshaw, just beyond the 
Neches river, that involved a loss of 
$45,000 in real money. That is, we 
could have sold the lumber for that 
amount and the mill was easily worth 
$45,000, and that was a dead loss of 
$45,000, and in addition to that we 
lost considerable cane one year by the 
freeze, but after all the crop of 1911 
brought in more money than the 
crop we had because the cane they 
raised sold at a higher price and the 
sugar brought in more money than 
we made, and instead of being short 
they were even with us or ahead. 
• Q. — Did the State get pay for that 
cane? 

A. — I don't know. Now, that elimi- j 
nates those things. I don't mean to 
say they are not important, and they 
would have had more money if it 
had not been for the freeze, still it 
don't cover the red figures. Now, 
another thing to be taken into con- 
sideration is the 10 cents per diem 
paid the convicts. That amounts to 
about $125,000 per year, and I under- 
stand that the Legislature appro- 
priated to the administration, and 
spent something over $300,000, and 
they did not start with a bankrupt 
treasury, and it is apparent the 
$1,000,000 loss is not covered by those 
things. Now, the point is: what 
covers it? If the State had left the 
management of the penitentiary sys- 
tem to myself, or my associates, we 
would doubtless have been in the 
same fix these gentlemen are now, 
because we would not know how to 
run it. 



Q. — Don't you think that really the 
cause of the trouble is in not having 
men capable of running it? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now, I don't say this 
in the way of criticism. I have known 
them for years, and if there has been 
some comparisons between us, I 
don't think there has been any real 
malice growing out of it. Now my 
observation has been it requires more 
ability to handle the penitentiary 
system of Texas than it does the 
biggest railroad system in Texas, and 
that is especially so, as the railroad 
system is so systematized that I 
could^ put myself at the head of it 
and it would run itself for six months 
if I did not interfere with it. There 
are the little leaks in the penitentiary 
that will break you if you are not 
careful. Now, I think the Commis- 
sioners have done the best they could. 

Q. — And you think the Commission- 
ers have done the best they could? 

A. — Well, I think they could have 
leased farms and gone on like we 
did. We made money on leasing 
premises, and I think they could have 
leased the same farms on which 
these convicts were leased, and gone 
right on without missing a day. Now, 
if they had done that, and the men 
had worked wisely, it seems to me 
the result would have been a whole 
lot better. 

Q. — Have you any comments to 
make in regard to handling supplies? 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — Now, the State purchases every 
year a certain amount of supplies, 
etc. Have you any suggestions in 
regard to this? 

A. — Well, I have this to state, 
Senator, about this supply question. 
I suppose it involves what has been 
said about the money being handled 
through the State ' Treasurer and 
about the competitive bids. I don't 
think that is practicable. I don't 
know of any comparison to make in 
the penitentiary system other than 
the mercantile system. You have got 
to sell quick and buy quick at all 
times, and the men that have charge 
of the system ought to have a very 
free rein. I know, of course, there 
is danger of graft and crookedness, 
but so far the institution has been 
strangely free of that. Now, of 
course, when a man is sent out to 
sell seven or eight million pounds of 
sugar, it would be mighty easy for 



234 



Rjepokt and Findings of 



him to knock off a lump and no one 
know it, but on the other hand a 
man might catch the sugar market 
just like he wants it and make sale 
today that he could not make to- 
morrow or next week. That feature 
of the problem has always puzzled 
me; that is, how to prevent dishon- 
esty, but I have not been able to con- 
ceive of any method we could adopt 
in the penitentiary system that would 
not cripple the efficiency of the sys- 
tem itself. 

Q. — You are familiar with the 
farms in general, are you not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar with any 
of the lands on which the State has 
options now? 

A. — I don't know. I may be. 

Mr. Brahan states: We have op- 
tions on the Blakely homestead, 3,- 
200 acres. You had the share force 
on it. We have an option on 100 
acres of land known as the Turner 
place, and have an option on the 
lease with Field & McLaughlin, and 
we have an option on the Ransome 
place north of the Harlem, and we 
have another on 486 acres. 

A. — Now, I am familiar with these 
places only in a general way. 

Q. — Most of them have been rais- 
ing cane? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
these places to tell if these indi- 
viduals have been making money or 
losing money on their private crops? 

A.— I don't know. They tell me 
their chief trouble in raising sugar 
cane is .the labor question, for if you 
cultivate cane and bring it to the 
harvest time, and you can't get the 
labor to harvest it, then your whole 
year's work is spoiled, and then the 
labor of raising sugar cane is some- 
thing that don't appeal to free labor. 
That is the reason they have given 
for not continuing the raising of 
sugar cane after having to give up 
their convicts. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the cane 
growing industry in tine State of 
Texas? 

A. — My only experience was as 
manager of the penitentiary. I was 
like Mr. Cabell about the 96 test. I 
thought a ton of cane was a ton of 
cane. 

Q. — If the State should see fit to 
enlarge their cane growing industry 
would it be your opinion That we en- 
large in the fields we are now oper- 



ating or would you go to the black 
lands north of us? 

A. — I would say that we stick to 
that country down there. Mr. 
Eldridge says it is worth $100 
per acre, and he proves it is 
worth more than that. Now, 
there is this to be said, Bas- 
sett Blakely had 1000 acres lying be- 
tween the Bassett and Ellis place, 
and it was in a perfect square form, 
and it was grown up in sprouts and 
weeds, and Bassett Blakely had 
bought it at $35 per acre, and he 
tried to sell it to us. He then said 
if we would cultivate it he would 
make us a bargain. My recollection 
is we made 800 bales of cotton on it 
and we made good money on that 
lease! I understand he has been of- 
fered since $100,000 for the tract of 
land which is $100 per acre. We paid 
$4 for the Ridick- place, 1000 acres, 
and I think it could be sold for a 
great deal more than that now. Now 
you see at the time we made those 
purchases those who had been hand- 
ling convicts thought they could not 
get along without them, and were 
offering to sell the land at a sacri- 
fice. For instance, we bought the El- 
lis farm for $165,000, a little over 
5000 acres. There was probably 1,- 
800 to 2000 acres in cane, and there 
was good cotton land on it, and the 
buildings on it were good — the best 
place in the system at the time. We 
bought the provender on hand, agri- 
cultural implements, and all the live- 
stock for the $165,000. Now if that 
land is worth $50 per acre, it is worth 
a good deal more than what we paid 
for it, or $250,000. It is true the 
land needs rest, but our contract 
with Mr. Eldridge required us to 
maintain a certain acreage in cane. 
That is the Imperial plantation. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — The trend of scientific agri- 
culture appears to be toward decreas- 
ing the acreage and doing more in- 
tensified farming. Now, with the fa- 
cilities at our hand for irrigation 
from Oyster creek, would you advise 
increasing the acreage or would you 
advise more intensified farming on 
the farms we have now? 

A. — I agree with you the intensi- 
fied farming is the thing now, conse- 
quently there is no use of the State 
buying more than twenty acres to 
the man. Texas is rich and you can 
afford to go slow trying this thin' 1 ; 
out. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



235 



Q. — Would there not be a great 
saving instead of increasing the acre- 
age to the man by decreasing the 
acreage because of the fact we would 
not have to scatter our energies? 

A. — Well, I don't know. 

Q. — It has always been my 'under- 
standing a man cannot handle as 
much land where it is irrigated as 
where it is not irrigated? 

A. — I don't know. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Judge Gill, you say it might 
be better to retain the man in the 
walls, even in idleness, rather than 
acquire additional lands until you 
determine the right policy? 

A. — No, sir; you did not under- 
stand me. I said — 

Q. — The question I wanted to get 
at is this: is it not more humane to 
keep the men occupied at something 
rather than keep them in the walls? 

A. — I should think so. 

Q. — And in view of the fact that 
lands are increasing in value, would 
the State lcse anything by acquiring 
such acres as are available and em- 
ploying the men? 

A. — -Well, yes; I will answer that. 
but if the State passes a law that the 
penitentiary commission shall go out 
and buy lands, you will be touched 
up on the price. Now at the time I 
was on the penitentiary board, I was 
never able to satisfy myself as to the 
law. We just went on and bought 
the land, and those who dealt with 
us were so anxious that they pro- 
ceeded on the theory no government 
would take something for nothing. 
Now, if the board had a free hand 
to purchase or not they would likely 
have much better success, and that 
would be especially true acording to 
my views in regard to the Oyster 
creek land, for they will increase 
their price if we go there and try to 
buy Oyster creek land. Now, my 
idea is this: the board should not 
pay an exorbitant price, and the best 
thing to do is go and lease land or 
rent it on the shares, selecting such 
lands where prisons have been 
erected, and absolutely take their 
time about acquiring lands. 

Q. — Do you mind stating if you 
think the conditions of the share 
f?rrp agreements were equitable to 
the StP.to° 

A. -I thought at the time we 
ma-e ours they were goo:} for us, 
and I tbink they were. 



Q. — Are you familiar with the 
audit made of the different farms, 
' beginning 1911 for the year 1910? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Here is an audit by Mr. Huey 
of the various farms. Most of them, 
you will observe, after deducting the 
allowance for convict labor, show a 
loss. 

A. — That is the Burleson and 
Johns place. 

Q. — Was that a cane farm? 
Mr. Brahan states: Cotton farm. 
Q. — You say so far as — 
A. — I don't think you can prop- 
erly measure the justness of any 
contract by the results of any one 
year. I don't suppose any farmer 
counts on a profit every year. He 
j knows some years, either on ac- 
i count of his own mistakes or on ac- 
j count of the seasons, he is going to 
' have a loss. He must count on an 
average profit. Now, to ilustrate, 
I understand here that neither cane 
nor cotton can be profitably raised 
in the Oyster creek bottom. Now, 
I have this to say; if cane and cot- 
i ton can not be properly raised in 
I the Oyster creek bottom, the world 
must go without sugar and cotton. 
; If it can't be raised there, it can't 
| be raised anywhere else in the world, 
i In other words, I think I might give 
I them 100 acres to work this year, 
| and they might lose money on it. I 
think if they have discontinued the 
lease system, or discontinued any- 
thing else, on account of one year's 
loss, they have made a mistake. 

I think some ran entirely through 
| our administration. We had the 
[ Sugar Land farm only one year 
I before I quit. We were pleased 
I with the results of the Sugar Land 



plantation, however, we might have 
lost money on that. I don't know. I 
will say this about the audit, I don't 
know what method Mr. Huey adopt- 
ed in the auditing of the penitentiary 
system. This is how I know we 
made money the three years I was 
in office; we built the Rusk-Pales- 
tine Railroad; we built the sixteen 
miles standard guage from the 
Clemens farm to Brazoria; we 
bought the Imperial farm for $165,- 
000; bought the Ramsey farm for 
$108,000: and bought the Riddick 
1000 acres for $39,500, and my rec- 
ollection is we paid for them all. 
We pairl for the railroad, which is 
supposed to have cost over $450,- 
000. pxcpj-t $100,000 of the $200,- 



236 



Report and Findings of 



000 which we borrowed from the 
school fund. We paid $100,000 of 
that back. We paid for the sixteen 
miles of Brazoria road to the Clem- 
ens farm; we bought a great many 
mules and implements; we rebuilt 
destroyed buildings; we stood the 
loss of the wind that year; we stood 
a loss of fire at Rusk, too, and we 
could not have built those railroads 
and bought these farms and paid 
for them unless we made money 
somewhere. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
Q. — Do not the books show the 
most money you made was by leas- 
ing convicts at $18 to $30 per 
month? 

A. — Well, I don't think so. That 
paid, all right, but it was not enough 
to have accounted for the difference, 
an 1 to show you that could not have 
accounted for it, they were leasing 
convicts before I went in, but the 
results were not shown we showed. 
Now, I took a lot of convicts from 
other occupations to build this rail- 
road; that railroad from Palestine 
to Rusk, and it was an enormous 
task. Now, before I left the office 

1 advocated the sale of the railroad 
to any road that ran into Palestine. 
I knew it would be a burden to the 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
Corporation Audit Company's audit? 

A. — No, sir; I never had the time 
to master those things. I was not 
working for the Company. 

Q. — I will ask you if you could 
have paid for this property if you 
had not had the lease money for 
these convicts? 

A. — I think a private individual 
could have worked the convicts at 
$31 per month and made a profit. I 
think Captain J. A. Herring, the 
superintendent of the penitentiary, 
could have worked them on lands 
equally as good and made money 
also. I think he was as good a 
farmer as the other fellow. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — In Mr. Eldridge's statement 
yesterday, you may recall he said 
it would be cheaper for the State 
to move the cane grown on the Ram- 
sey up to the House plantation 
around over the Columbia road to 
the Clemens mill, than to pay the 
price he would be justified in charg- 
ing on the Sugar Land railroad. I 
would like to ask you if the sale 
cf that railroad by your Commission 



to Mr. Eldridge, if there was any 
stipulated freight rates to move that 
cane? 

A. — He was to move the cane, 
if moved on our account, at just the 
price the Railroad Commission would 
impose had the road been under the 
jurisdiction of the Railroad' Commis- 
sion. Now, I did not understand Mr. 
Eldridge yesterday. I think Mr. 
Eldridge was either mistaken or 
else we misunderstood what he 
really meant, because this seven 
miles of railroad ran direct from An- 
chor, or rather from the farm to An- 
chor and connected with the I. & 
G. N. to the other road mentioned 
by Mr. Eldridge. 

Mr. Brahan states: At Anchor 
you connect up with the Velasco Ter- 
minal and go to Brazoria to the 
State road running down to the mill. 

A. — I think Mr. Eldridge meant it 
would cost more under the present 
connection than it would if the An- 
chor connection had been maintain- 
ed. Now, I think I wrote that con- 
tract, -and it is a very simple con- 
tract and you gentlemen can read it. 

Q. — I merely wanted to ascertain 
if there was a stipulation as to the 
freight he was to charge to the 
Clemens farm? 

A. — I don't know. If there was, 
it was in the contract. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — In the sale of the railroad 
was there any requirements that 
Mr. Eldridge continue that part of 
the line? 

A. — Until he made the connection 
which he explained about. 

Q. — Now, as a matter of fact, he 
did not put in that northern con- 
nection? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And after putting in that con- 
nection would not operate between 
the Ramsey farm and Anchor? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — And that would cut off the 
feasibility of shipping cane from the 
Ramsey to the Clemens? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And forced it to his own 
door? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Could it be taken to the Har- 
lem farm? 

A. — Yes, sir; it could have been 
done, but the Harlem mill at that 
time did not have the capacity to 
mill it. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



237 



Q. — What do you think of the 
advisability from a business stand- 
point of enlarging the mill at Har- 
lem and using that as the one big 
central sugar plant? 

A. — It is practicable. 

Q. — Is it sufficiently centrally lo- 
cated? 

A. — The chief objection to that 
depends on what the difference in 
freight rates would be if located on 
the Imperial plantation. I don't 
know that -there would be any dif- 
ference. Here is the situation: You 
have got a mill at Clemens farm, 
and I don't think it would be wis- 
dom if a farm is very much out of 
the way to undertake to grind all 
the cane at the Clemens or any other 
mill. Now the Ramsey farm is off 
at the end of a spur, or was, and is 
now on the Sugar Land Railroad. 
Now, my idea would be to put a 
mill at such a point where it would 
be in touch with more than one out- 
let, and from that viewpoint I would 
put it on the Imperial plantation. 

Q. — Now, the mill the Imperial 
Sugar Co. now own, you had an op- 
tion to buy that mill once, did you 
not? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — Do you think it would be ad- 
visable from a business standpoint 
to locate a central mill at a point 
where you had but one outlet? Now, 
along that same line of reasoning, 
don't you think Huntsville being on 
a little spur, is laboring under a 
very great disadvantage? 

A. — Yes, sir; certainly. 

Q. — Do you think any individual 
plant would be justified in locating 
in any town with just a little spur — 
do you think it good business policy? 

A. — I think a complete answer is: 
Individuals don't do it anywhere. 

Q. — You have been connected with 
the State institution long enough to 
know the importance of facilities for 
receiving supplies, also distribution? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — When you turned over the 
penitentiary properties to your suc- 
cessors in office, will you please state 
how you arrived at the values in 
making up that inventory? 

A. — I really don't know. My un- 
derstanding at the time was that the 
value of the inventory itself was 
chiefly a list of the stuff. If we 
owned a mule there, or if we owned 
a plow implement, the main point 



was that we had it and that it was 
turned over to the administration, 
and we did not inventory anything 
they did not get. They had a man 
to go over it and check it. Now as 
to the corn, that I suppose, was meas- 
ured up as to bushels and set down 
at the market price, and the cane I 
suppose was made at so many tons. 

Q. — Could you be able to say 
from your general information how 
they arrived at the inventory of the 
buildings at Huntsville and Rusk as 
to what they were worth? 

A. — I have no idea, and the truth 
of the matter is I have not under- 
stood why the value of those build- 
ings would concern anybody. Now 
if we had put any money on them 
it would be proper to keep track 
of the money, but the system, un- 
I less it has things for sale, has no 
! reason to treat them as assets. For 
, instance, we bought the Ramsey farm 
for $13.75 per acre. According to 
Mr. Eldridge, it is worth $100 per 
acre. It is not for sale, and we 
! ought to put a value on it at what 
! it cost us, and not increase the value 
; while we own it. I think it was per- 
I fectly proper to put some estimate, 
' for instace, on the Clemens farm 
acreage. It should have been en- 
tered at its original cost. I don't 
think anything should be added to 
the land in the inventory. If we 
spent $10,000 in ditching, then the 
ditching ought to be added to the in- 
ventory, and I think the system of 
bookkeeping ought to be devised to 
keep the books with the things you 
have and show what they cost and 
what the return is. 

Q. — -Did the system of accounting 
as used by yourself, take into con- 
sideration the betterments as dis- 
tinguished from the maintenance and 
operating accounts? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. That is 
my understanding. 

Q. — As a bisis of fixing the credit 
of the prison, would you feel justi- 
fied in giving your individual esti- 
mate of the value of the different 
j farming properties now owned by 
! the system? 

A. — (No response). 
Q. — I mean the credit value of 
the sj/stem. The State proposes to 
j issue bonds chargeable to the depart- 
I ment and the properties of the peni- 
j tentiary system must be pledged as 
• security. 

A. — I did not know that was the 
plan; that the property of the sys- 



238 



Report and Findings of 



tern be pledged for the security. If 
that is the case, you would have to 
figure on what it is worth. Now 
I did not think the legislature would 
let the State sell its lands, but I 
think -they ought to let the peniten- 
tiary pay for them of it could. 

Q. — The plan is to estimate the 
value of these properties as a basis 
of credit for operations of the Prison 
Commission. Now, going back to the 
question of irrigation of cane, how 
many acres did you irrigate? 

A. — Not over sixty. 

Q. — Have you any idea what it 
would cost per acre to irrigate? 

A. — This particular irrigation 
company has any amount of water. 
They offered to irrigate for $6 per 
acre, and I thought that too much 
for you can get rice irrigated for that 
price, and it takes only one-fourth 
the amount of water for cane. Now, 
the irrigation company offered me 
this proposition: I could take an 
average of the cane tonnage per acre 
for the previous ten years, and they 
would water for us the coming ten 
years for one-half the increase of 
tonnage. Of course, we did not talk 
to them about this, but we knew 
that it would be tremendously more 
than twelve tons to the acre. The 
thing that deterred us was the ad- 
ditional cost of preparing the land. 
The Harlem land is not flat. It is 
apparently level, but it is not, and 
we would have to throw dikes up, 
and if any considerable land on the 
Harlem place is prepared for irriga- 
tion it will take considerable money 
to do it. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — It can be done with convict 
labor? 

A. — Yes, sir; but you will have 
to have plows, scrapers, etc., to make 
the ditches, and you will have to have 
an engineer, and you will have to 
build flumes like bridges across the 
creeks to carry the water across. 
Now there was a plan to make a lot I 
of dams across Oyster creek itself. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — What is the depth of that 
water? 

A. — It ranges from 10 to 18 feet. 

Q. — And how wide is Oyster 
creek? 

A. — 50 to 150 feet in width. The ! 
banks of Oyster creek are higher j 
than the adjacent lands. 

Q. — What would fill the basis be- ! 
tween the dams? 



A. — Rains in the winter. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — What do you consider the dif- 
ference, if any, in the efficiency of 
the convict labor under the present 
law as compared with the previous 
law? 

A. — I have not any data of my 
personal knowledge that would en- 
able me to answer this intelligently. 
I could make a comment by compari- 
son. I mean the effect the old in- 
vestigating committee had on the dis- 
cipline of the convicts. They got it 
into their heads they were going to 
be emancipated like the old negress, 
and it had its effect on the white 
population, and we had quite a time 
making them work, and Mr. Joe 
Summers of Rusk took the notion he 
was a moral persuader himself, so 
there was one convict who was bad 
and he would talk to him, and the 
convict kicked him down, and we 
had to go in and get him out. He 
would not have the man punished, 
and I sent word as chairman of the 
board, he was to be punished, and I 
went up there some months after- 
wards, and when I went in the dining 
room where there were about 200 
men eating dinner, and something 
was said about the man who kicked 
Mr. Summers, and a man got up and 
said: "I am the man who done it, 
and I am proud of it." That kind 
of business is as bad as the convict 
who does not work, and a convict 
can't lose his job and you have got 
to find some other way to punish 
him, and I don't believe the total 
abolition of the bat was a good thing, 
but I think it ought to be safe- 
guarded so it will be impossible of 
abuse. I don't think a sergeant or 
guard should be allowed to strike a 
prisoner, and they should be punished 
in the presence of the Commission- 
ers themselves. I don't know but 
what the Prison Commissioners have 
had trouble in making them behave. 
Now it occurs to me if this keeps on 
this way we will have to take men 
out instead of putting them in the 
penitentiary. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — You know, as a matter of 
fact, the bat has not been abolished 
as to the law? 

A. — Yes, sir; I know that, but the 
public sentiment sustains the aboli- 
tion of the bat. I am hardly in ac- 
cord with the public sentiment, be- 
cause you see there are 60 per cent. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



239 



negroes and 15 per cent, or twelve 
and a half, Mexicans. They are what 
we call the "cream" population of 
this country. If we put a negro on 
bread and water for a few days they 
don't' mind that. You have to do 
something else. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Of course, we are all entitled 
to fairness, and we have the right 
when once we confine a man to re- 
quire him to work, but that would 
not be complete unless we had some 
way to compel him to work. Don't 
you find there is always a certain 
per cent, of them who will not work 
unless they are made to work? 

A. — It takes something to dread 
and something to hope for. Now, as I 
said, if there have been a great many 
abuses in the use of the bat or a 
great many abuses in the treatment 
of convicts in the past, there will be 
abuses in other administrations. 
I don't indorse those abuses at all. 
There is no use in it, but I think 
the old four-inch width strap should 
be restored. I will say this in a gen- 
eral way. The discipline of convicts 
is the most difficult of all; the finan- 
cial difficulty or anything else. We 
tried to segregate some of them, 
and we put a lot of them on a farm 
near Huntsville, and finally found it 
better to scatter them among the well 
behaved convicts so they could not 
get together and hatch up a mu- 
tiny. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — In operation of the farms how 
many acres did you estimate work- 
ing to the convict? 

A. — I don't know. These things 
have passed out of my mind. It has 
been about three years since I took 
any detailed interest in it. Inasmuch 
as this Committee is looking to the 
financial solution of the problem, as 
well as other features, will say I am 
firmly convinced the State can no 
more get the ability, character and 
experience which it is necessary to 
have for men at the head of this 
institution than the railroad could put 
a $3,000 man at the head of their 
business. The man who is at the 
head of the penitentiary business is 
a $10,000 man, no matter what he 
does. If he is big enough for it, 
and his management is good, there 
is money in it and he will keep the 
convicts just as well as now. There 
is no system in the world that will 
work automatically, and you have 



got to get a man who knows how. 
and strange to relate the world is 
discussing the proposition of hiring 
expert mayors, even if they have to 
send to New York City to get them — 
even firemen; chief of police, etc., I 
am not bidding for the job, however. 
I would not be worth it to the State. 
I expect they could afford to pay Mr. 
Eldridge $15,u00, and make $500,- 
000 on the proposition. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — I consider it would be cheap 
at $50,000 if he would make it a 
personal matter, but I disagree on 
his proposition of making $65 per 
acre. I don't think he can do it 
and — 

A. — $50 is enough — $25 is enough 
profit. 

Q. — I have made more than that 
on one acre of tomatoes, and I have 
lost more than that on sixty acres. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Have you any conclusions re- 
garding the iron industry at Rusk? 

A. — I think it is one of the big- 
gest sink holes to put money into I 
have ever found. The last Legislature 
that met while I was in office insisted 
on giving $100,000 to experiment on 
it. They also gave us $100,000 or 
$15,000 to establish a cotton factory 
at Huntsville. We went on and spent 
the $100,000 and lost it. We did not 
spend a dollar at Rusk, as it was not 
enough to re-arrange the plant up to 
a modern basis, and there was no 
money to build fire-proof buildings. 
The iron industry at Rusk is an im- 
possibility as a profit making enter- 
prise, chiefly on account of fuel, and 
then you have to go 100 miles to 
get limestone and then you have to 
send to other quarries to get a pecu- 
liar kind of ore to mix with this ore 
at Rusk to make a good quality of 
iron. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — Any further suggestions? 

A. — No, sir. I hope you gentlemen 
will find a way out of the difficulty. 



TUESDAY, MAY 20, 1913, AT 
HOUSTON, TEXAS. 

Testimony of H. L. Trammel. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
Q. — You are the owner of the Re- 
trieve plantation? 
A. — Yes, sir. 



240 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Please state the terms of the 
lease existing between you and the 
Prison Commission for the land. 

A. — I furnish the land, mules and 
implements, and they pay me $6 per 
acre for the corn and cotton and 
potato land, and $7 per acre for the 
land planted in cane. 

Q. — How much cane land is there? 

A. — Nearly 700 acres. 

Q. — How far is that from the 
Clemens sugar mill? 

A. — About nine miles. 

Q. — Any railriad communication 
between the two places? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — That runs through your farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is that planted in cane? 

A. — Forty acres; balance stubble 
cane. 

Q. — How old is the stubble cane? 

A. — Third crop. 

Q. — How long do you think stubble 
cane can be relied on to produce a 
reasonable crop ? 

A. — Four or five years. 

Q. — It has been testified to that 
stubble cane can only be grown 
profitably over three years. 

A. — The fourth crop is always a 
good crop, and sometimes the fifth 
crop. 

Q. — What has been the average 
yield on your place? 

A. — In 1911 my highest yield was 
thirty-nine tons per acre, and my 
lowest was twenty-nine tons. 

Q. — Did you irrigate any? 

A. — No, sir; but we had rain just 
right that year. 

Q. — What proportion of your crop 
did you lose that year by the freeze? 

A. — Nearly all of that. 

Q. — How did you market the re- 
mainder?- 

A. — I have a mill on the place. 

Q. — What is the capacity of that 
mill? 

A. — Three hundred tons. 

Q. — What is the understanding in 
the lease agreement in regard to 
grinding the cane? 

A. — They had the right in the lease 
to grind it at the Clemens, but 1 
bought it from them. 

Q. — What was the agreed price 
paid for this cane? 

A.— $3.85 per ton. 

Q. — Are there any tram roads over 
the farm? 

A. — No, sir; all wagon hauled. 



Q. — How many years has this lease 
been in existence? 

A. — They have had the place leased 
three years, but it was re-leased this 
year. 

Q. — Was that a share farm lease? 

A. — Yes, sir; I got 50 per cent of 
the cane and 40 per cent of the corn 
and cotton. 

Q. — Will you state whether or not 
that share farm was profitable to 
you? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — For how long was your con- 
tract as a share farm made? 

A.— For 1911 and 1912. 

Q. — Sometime about October, 1910, 
and was for the years 1911 and 1912 ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — When does that lease contract 
expire ? 

A. — It expires in January. They 
have an option to purchase the land 
at $70 per acre. 

Q. — On what terms? 

A. — My contract provides one- 
fourth cash, and balance in one, two 
and three years, but I wrote the Com- 
missioners two months ago and told 
them I would give them ten years on 
the land, and would make a conces- 
sion of putting up a prison building 
at my own expense and putting a 
dam on the creek; clear up more land 
and sell them mules on time, if they 
desired. 

Q. — How many acres in the farm? 

A. — Seven thousand and five hun- 
dred acres. That letter, they did not 
reply to, and I don't know now 
whether or not I could make those 
concessions. 

Q. — Referring to the results of your 
share farm operations — this is for 
1912 — how was this crop divided by 
the State on corn, cotton and cane? 

A. — They got the same as I did, 
except 10 per cent more on corn and 
cotton. Now, I have got some figures 
here, which I will give you; for 1912: 

Syrup sold $46,000 

Cooperage bought. . .$5,000 

Fuel 3,736 

Labor in sugar house 3,582 

Cylinder oil 150 

Mill supplies 250 

Pump and evaporator 485 
Cost seed potatoes. . 1,240 
Cost farm implements 700 
Harness, bridles, etc. • 200 

Corn fed mules 3,200 

Cotton seed planted. 400 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



241 



My returns, 40 per 

cent 338 bales cot- 
ton 8,437 

Corn sold. 1,100 

75 per cent of pota- 
toes 3,000 

Profit on hogs 1,900 

Profit on cattle 2,000 

Cane bought from 

State 9,459 

Cane bought from in- 
dependent farmers 3,800 
Rent or interest on 

investment 5,000 

Depreciation live 

stock 1,000 

Increase in mules. . . 900 

This makes a net profit of approx- 
imately $25,000. 

Q. — What was the conditions re- 
garding the contract in reference to 
live stock? 

A. — They did not own any live 
stock. 

Q. — Did you invoice the live stock 
to them at a certain price? 

A. — I did not make any charge 
for live stock. That was part of 
my contract. 

Q. — They have nothing in the way 
of live stock? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you think under the cir- 
cumstances the credit for the sale of 
live stock is all right? 

A. — Well, it was raised on the 
farm, and I was paying interest or 
rent on the pasture land. 

Q. — State how many acres of un- 
cultivated land on this farm. 

A. — About 5000 acres, and there 
is 1000 acres that can be put in. 

Q. — You stated you bought the 
cane from the State. Do you care 
to say to the Committee how much 
profit you estimated there was in 
milling the cane at your mill? 

A. — I made from $1.50 to $2 per 
ton, but the cane last year was very 
rich. However, we made the poor- 
est cane crop I ever saw in Texas 
but more money in it. 

Q. — What proportion of your 
profits on the farm did you pi; 
to the credit of the cane crop' 

A. — Well, the cane crop w 
have netted about for my part |j 
000 to $20,000, compared to $ 
for the same amount of cotto 
had practically the same amou 
cotton I had to cane. 

Q. — Are you aware of the 
that the audit of the accounts 



1912 indicate a loss on the part of 
the State? 

A. — I don't think there should be 
any loss; perhaps $500 or $1000, 
still, considering the amount of la- 
bor they used they are lucky to come 
out as they did, or that nearly even. 

Q. — This audit, made December 
31, 1912, shows a loss of $12,927.26? 

A. — I think that is incorrect. I 
think after that time I paid Mr. Tit- 
tle $5000 for cane, and the corn 
this year the farm has been given 
.credit for it. I don't think it ought 
to show but very little. I paid Mr. 
Tittle in February or January, about 
$5000 for the cane, and I don't 
know that the corn was ever put in. 

Q. — Does that include charge for 
convict labor, $16,848.50? 

A. — There is no reason why if 
every other farmer gets 50 per cent 
of the cotton and 5 per cent of the 
corn, instead of 40 per cent, as I 
did from the State, there is no rea- 
son why they should not have made 
a crop a great deal cheaper. 

'Q. — Do you think the division of 
the crops was equitable to the State? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think it was a very 
liberal one to the State. Now, I do 
not think it is the policy of the sys- 
tem, but I think they will make 
more money by leasing land than 
owning their own farms. 

Q. — Do you think the present pol- 
icy of leasing it at a stipulated price 
per acre is a better policy for the 
State than the share farm contract? 

A. — I think so. 

.Q. — I mean the plan of leasing it 
at a stipulated price per a< 
against the share farm 
1911 and 1912? 

A. — Well, I 
if they will 
well as th( 

Q.- 
vis 




242 



Report and Findings of 



the present law as compared to the 
old law? 

A. — There is no comparison at 
all. It takes at least three or four 
convicts now to do what one convict 
used to do. 

Q. — Why do you think so? 

A. — I have seen it tested. Last 
summer, after they got through lay- 
ing by the crops, they had seventy- 
two convicts cutting camp wood. 
They cut two or three days, and you 
could hardly see what they had 
done. I suggested that we cord the 
wood, and we finally corded it, and 
the first day's work of seventy-two 
men was nine cords, and the next 
day it was ten cords, and the next 
day it was eleven cords. I would 
not give now one free negro for 
three convicts. Of course, short 
hours take off a great deal. They 
can only work seven or eight hours 
per day. They are out there that 
long, but they are not working that 
much, and when they are picking 
cotton they would pick anywhere 
from 125 pounds to 150 pounds per 
day, and I offered to pay them if 
they got out 300 pounds 10 cents 
extra, and there was quite a num- 
ber of them picked 300 pounds of 
cotton per day then. 

Q. — How many men have you on 
your farm? 

A. — About 130 or 135. 

Q. — How many acres in cultiva- 
tion on your place this year? 

A. — Between 2 000 and 2200 acres. 

Q. — How many acres do you think 
he State ought to be able to work 
~fch convict? 

the prober implements, 

rork twenty acres. 

diversified, the 

u them all at 

jiot up yet 

Jf it was 

ihteen 

J-k 




ping, and they worked as well with- 
out it for a few months after the 
bat was abolished, and while it was 
being abolished, they did- not know 
it until May, when about 'forty ad- 
ditional men came over from the 
Clemens farm and they told them 
they were fools for working, and 
they have not worked any since. 

Q. — You heard the statement this 
morning it was best not to separate 
the third degree men in one camp, 
but to send them out among the dif- 
ferent camps. What do you think 
of the suggestion? 

A. — I don't think it makes much 
difference, but I have noticed the last 
thirty days they have the third de- 
gree men in stripes. I think this 
stripe business has some effect. 

Q. — Is it your observation these 
striped men are a constant menace 
to discipline. 

A. — Well, I don't know. 

Q. — Briefly, what is your judg- 
ment regarding the advisability of 
the State continuing the growing of 
cane? 

A. — I think it is the best crop we 
can grow outside of potatoes. I 
don't think there is any comparison 
between it and cotton. It will cost 
about $10 per acre to cultivate a 
cane crop. 

Q. — What is the cost per acre for 
cotton? 

A. — It costs more per acre for cot- 
ton than the cultivation of cane, but 
it costs more to harvest cane than 
cotton. If I had to grow cane, I 
would put in a mill, and grow it as 
high as I could. In other words, 
with a mill you get $5.75 net, and 
when you sell it $3.50 to $4.00 is 
;a, big price. 

Q. — You have heard the statement 
there is not over 1600 or 1700 acres 
of good cane land on the Clemens 
farm. Will you state what is your 
judgment in regard to this? 

A. — The Clemens farm is not good 
^ane land. It will make very good 

me, but it will not produce a crop 

:e the red land on this side of the 

^er. 

Q. — Do you regard that as good 
ton land? 

„ — Yes, sir. I made just this 
one and a half bales to the acre 
' some of it, and I had 600 acres 
royed by the convicts, and 150 
?s turned out that they could not 
•;k. The grass got too bad, and I 
.k I made as good average cot- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



243 



ton crop as any State farm in the 
system. 

Q — Could you state the results of 
your share farm operations for 1911? 

A. — I lost big money. ] did not. 
sue fhem, but I should have $25,000 
for the undelivery of boilers. They 
undertook to manufacture boilers 
under contract by the middle of July, 
and I got the last one on the 2 8th 
day of October, by the time I ought 
to have gotten the cane mill started. 
If I had had the boilers on time, as 
T contracted for t .em, I would not 
have lost as heavily as I did. 

Q. — As a cane grower, do you be- 
lieve it possible to shorten the ma- 
turing period by irrigation? 

A. — Yes, sir; and they begin cut- 
ting by the 10th or 15th of October, 
and by irrigation you begin some 
time in September. Of course, any- 
thing that pays a big revenue is 
more or less hazardous. While a 
cane crop is a more paying propo- 
sition than cotton, yet it is more 
hazardous. The potato crop is the 
game way, but it pays a big revenue 
when it hits. 

Q. — To what extent would you ad- 
vise the State to grow cane? 

A. — I would put in all I could take 
care of. By the time the cane crop 
comes in the cotton crop is off, and 
if they do not have a cane crop, 
there is no labor for the convicts to 
do. They can make syrup, and get 
much better results from a syrup 
crop than from sugar. One reason 
the State has made no money out of 
cane during this administration, is 
they have kept up the land much bet- 
ter than during the last administra- 
tion, and under the present admin- 
istration they have been planting a 
good deal of peas, and have built up 
the land considerably. 

Q — Does that apply to the share 
farms too? 

A.— The Ramsey farm is a good 
cane farm. The Harlem is no good, 
and neither is the Imperial. 

Q. — Taking tb- ~ir|o n^^e:e from 
the ^^^^^ , ^ t" 




A. — Anything above fifteen tons is 
profitable. 

Q. — Mr. Trammell, do you estim- 
ate the price of $3.8 5, at which you 
bought that, below the cost? 

A. — It will cost a little over $2 
per ton to raise it, and this year the 
State will get on my place eighteen 
to twenty tons to the acre. That 
would be about $35 profit per acre. 
Of course if they mill it they will 
get much more out of it. 

Q. — Have you any comment to 
make on any method of managing 
the State farms, or the manner in 
which your farm is conducted? 

A. — Not with the Commissioners, 
I have not, but with the convicts I 
have. Now, with the corn, I had a 
good stand. Now I have not over 
one-third of a stand. They cut it 
up. I can't say anything in re- 
gard to the Commission, but with 
the convicts I can. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — I think your figures on your 
share farm showed a profit of $25,- 
000. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You mean that was the crop 
as you received it from the State? 

A. — Yes, sir; that was net. I had 
to furnish the feed for the mules, 
and the mules and the implements, 
and stand the wear and tear, and my 
gross receipts should have been 
$34,000. 

Q. — I believe you included in that 
some live stock and hogs? 

A. — Yes, sir; I had to put that in 
somewhere as it was revenue. On 
the share farm the State was the 
owner of the live stock. I gave them 
the right to pasture their milch cows. 
They owned all the hogs. They ran 
their own hogs. 

Q. — Those hflgs were not owned 
by you jointly? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many acres did you 
have in cane last year? 

A. — Six hundred and twenty-nine. 

Q. — How many acres in cotton? 

A. — Six hundred and eighteen, 
practically the same. 

Q. — Does the State gin its own 
cotton? 

A. — No, sir; and as yet it has not 
decided as to what it will do. 

Q. — I see the sales of cotton and 
cotton seed for the State amounts 
o $11,502.32, and the sale of cane 
amounts to $9,510.63. 

A. — They got 6 per cent of the 
cotton and corn. 



244 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Do the owners of land who 
lease land to the State, prefer to 
lease it for money rent or share 
crop? 

A. — I don't think anybody wants 
to lease any land to the State. Citi- 
zens are paying $6, $7 and $10 per 
acre for it. 

Q. — Private tenants are more 
profitable than convicts from the 
State? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do individual tenants take 
better care of the land than the 
State? 

A. — Yes, sir. Out of my manage- 
ment there, I have never lost a horse, 
and this year they have lost five, and 
one can't walk. One day I was down 
there and a convict grabbed up a big 
stick of wood about three feet long 
and ran around in front of his mules 
and said he would knock their d — 
heads off, and I asked the sergeant 
to send down another man to work 
the team. They won't work the land. 
They turned out 150 acres of cot- 
ton after I furnished the feed to feed 
the mules with, and I furnished the 
seed to plant it, and for lack of hoe- 
ing they failed to keep the field 
clean, and they had to throw it out. 

Q. — Could you suggest to this Com- 
mittee why it is the State in all of 
these contracts, whether a lease con- 
tract or on the shares, comes out 
loser? 

A. — The men won't work. 

Q. — You attribute it to that? 

A. — Yes, sir. Where there are 
4000 men eating and none working, 
there is bound to be a leakage. 

Q. — Has there not been some poor 
management of the farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You have hojv many convicts 
out there now? 

A. — One hundred and thirty. 

Q. — What was your average last 
year? 

A. — In 1912 we had eighty-seven. 

Q. — Would that be a fair average 
for the year? 

A. — Yes, sir. There was from any- 
where 2 5 to 30 men in the building, 
pretending to be sick, and the ac- 
tual number of men in the field was 
not over fifty men. In 1911, before 
they knew that the bat was out of 
operation the fifty men there did as 
much work as the one hundred and 
thirty now. 

Q. — You don't think the convict 
does as much work as free labor? 



A. — About one-third as much. 
They come to the house and play 
baseball until night, and they nat- 
urally could not do as much work. 

Q. — How many hours does free la- 
bor work? 

A. — Prom sunup until sundown. 

Q. — What do you pay for free la- 
bor? 

A. — $1 per day. 

Q. — They are paid $1 per day 
from sunup until sundown? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And they do about three times 
as much work? 

A. — Yes, sir. The plow hands do 
very well though. 

Q. — Free labor gets in about how 
many days in the year? 

A. — We get them all in. The 
sorry ones usually go to the peni- 
tentiary and they lay off on Satur- 
day evenings. 

Q. — According to this you work 
free labor something like 313 days 
in the year, excepting Sundays? 

A. — Yes, sir; sometimes however, 
we will let them off on Saturday 
evening. I have one negro who has 
been with me ten years and he has 
never lost a day since he has been 
with me. 

Q. — What other cases of extrava- 
gances have you noticed? 

A. — They leave their slickers in 
the fields, and I have brought in at 
least a dozen slickers since Christ- 
mas myself. 

Q. — Could not a great deal of that 
be avoided? 

A. — They lose tools. They will 
break up and lose more tools in a 
year than any free labor farm in the 
country that size. 

Q. — They have no care at all for 
the property of the State? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is that largely due to the fact 
we are not permitted to punish them? 

A. — Yes, sir. I have been there 
when the bat was used, and during 
the last eight months they thought 
it could be used, and if you let them 




Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



245 



Q. — Do you consider the chain 
more severe? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — As a humane problem, we 
have adopted one of the most in- 
humane ways of punishment? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now the dark cell, 
they don't mind that. They go there 
and sleep. 

Q. — Have your convicts any way 
of attending church if they want to? 

A. — Yes, sir; and they have 
schools. I have brought in maga- 
zines myself on lots of different oc- 
casions and given them to them. I 
think they are too well treated, and 
they do not appreciate it, and they 
are better clothed and better fed 
than ever before. I have been around 
convicts for the last ten or twelve 
years, and there should be no com- 
plaint now as to the way they are 
being treated. 

Q. — It would save just $200 per 
year for each convict if we would 
put them on a farm and make them 
pay their keep. 

A. — Yes, sir; if they would work. 
Mr. Eldridge has some good ideas 
but I don't think his farming ideas 
are good, as it is a well known fact 
if a convict is too indolent ahd trif- 
ling to make a living before he came 
to the prison that he is not going to 
work unless he is made to do it. 

Q. — If you were to establish a lit- 
tle colony where they could live by 
themselves, separating them into 
their different grades, and especially 
the negroes, do you think they could 
get along even with themselves? 

A. — No, sir; I have seen them 
fight like everything. There were 
two — one had a pole and the other 
had a brush ax, and the guard threw 
his gun on them and threatened to 
shoot them if they did not stop, and 
after a while they got together and 
clinched and one beat the other up 
and kicked him in the face, and 
blooded him like an ox. 

Q. — Have you heard any com- 
plaints or rumors of misconduct on 
the part of the guards? 

A. — I think the system of paying 
guards inadequate. 

Q. — Do you think a different char- 
acter of guards should be had? 

A. — Yes, sir. A man who is paid 
<4 »3 5 per month is always looking for 
a better job, and you cannot get a 
good man for that amount. 

Q. — Have you heard of any drink- 
ing or anything like that? 



A. — Not on my place recently. I 
did a couple of months ago, but they 
were not drunk. 

Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
other irregularities? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — In reference to any matters? 

A. — No, sir. Well, I know of a 
convict last fall who attempted to 
sell his ticket to El Paso when he 
only wanted to come to Houston, 
but the agent did not make the deal 
with him. 

Q. — Do you know of any irregu- 
larities of the guards, officers, book- 
keepers, or anyone, in regard to the 
convicts' per diem? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think any- 
thing of that kind has been done 
here. 

Q. — Have you heard of any irreg- 
ularities over at the Clemens farm? 

A. — No, sir. Well, I heard of Mr. 
Thomas' and Mr. Mills' affray, too. 
i regard Captain Mills as a very 
forcible character. 

Q. — Do you think it to the best 
interest of the convicts for the State 
to employ a guard who drinks and 
finds an affinity between himself and 
negro woman? 

A. — I would not have them. If he 
was anywhere else no corporation 
would keep him, nor any private citi- 
zen. 

By. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — Your idea of the chain as a 
means of punishment, you think in- 
humane? 

A. — Yes, sir; and they don't seem 
to care for it. The bat seems to 
scare them . . the very idea of it. 
They fear the chain, too, some, but it 
don't get the results. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — What proportion of your time 
do you spend on your farm? 

A. — I spend now very little time. 
I will average two or three days a 
week. 

Q. — Your general observation is 
pretty good, is it not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

joy Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — I want to ask this question: 
You just now made a statement it 
took tfour men to do one man's 
work. How many men is it neces- 
sary to keep around the building 
such as cooks, men working in the 
hospital, stewards, etc.? 

A. — Nine or ten. 

Q. — You have 2000 acres of land 
in cultivation, and you are working 
it with 130 men? 



246 



Report and Findings of 



A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I dont's think there was ever 
a time in the penitentiary business 
130 men worker 2000 acres. I don't 
mean all the way through, however, 
for there are exceptions. Now, don'i 
you believe vhis: I have seen two 
colored gentlemen since I have come 
here who have been in the peniten- 
tiary, and they are in the Bender 
Hotel and back at their positions as 
bellboys, and I also saw three others. 
Now, do you believe you can take a 
man twenty years old, and who has 
never cut any wood, and make an 
axe man out of him? 

A. — No, sir; but I think a cord to 
one and a quarter cords would be a 
fair day's work in those woods. The 
plow men work well, but when you 
put them to clearing land, ditching, 
etc., it takes three men about as 
long to do it as one man ought to 
do it. 

Q. — How long would it take you to 
get up 100 negroes and get them to 
cut wood in those jungles? 

A. — The farm at first would have 
to have a lot of good houses, and 
then get some families there, and 
you would have no trouble getting 
your 25 or 50 or 75 men to go in 
those woods and cut all the wood 
you want them to. 

Q. — Has there ever been anyone 
you know of who worked convicts and 
got out even? 

A. — Mr. Bertram, I think. I can 
point you out a half dozen until the 
land got so poor they were not mak- 
ing any money out of their cane, and 
he created a lot of 35 and 40 cent 
free labor per day. I don't blame any 
convict for not working. The people 
brought it on themselves. The people 
of North Texas think they were 
treated very inhumanly and worked 
to death. Now, it has come to the 
other extreme. Mr. Brahan, Mr. 
Tittle or Mr. Cabell can't put them to 
work until the "red heifer" is brought 
back. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — You suggested that the people 
don't understand the situation, gen- 
erally. Don't you think that the 
losses are in a measure due to the 
fact the penitentaries at Rusk and 
Huntsville, and all these farms, are 
in isolated localities? 

A. — Yes, sir; they are. 

Q. — Would you not think it would 
have a good effect to enlighten the 



people of Texas, and that it would 
induce them to take a greater in- 
terest in such matters, if the entire 
system was located on a more general 
line of travel, for instance: Waco, 
Austin or Dallas ? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think so. Now, 
I want to repeat again what Mr. 
Eldridge said yesterday, in speaking 
of going to North Texas or Central 
Texas; that they are sleeping on a 
golden mine and they don't know it, 
and if it is said they can't make any- 
thing on the land it is absurd. 

Q. — Did you ever try to farm any- 
where else? 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — This farm of yours that you 
were offering to sell the State; what 
was the total consideration for the 
farm? 

A.— $521,000 I think but the con- 
sideration would have been less than 
that and I offered to take 5 per cent 
interest on the deferred interest. 

Q. — Your figures showed the farm 
netted you $25,000 last year? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Does it not show you this 
farm does not bring you in 5 per 
cent interest? 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — Do you expect the State to 
buy the farm as it is? 

A. — No, sir; I would put a prison 
building on it and do some other 
work. They could easily put in 2000 
acres more, and then of course the 
profits ought to double. 

Q. — You valued the farm at some- 
thing over $500,000, and your net 
revenue was a little over $25,000? 

A. — Yes, sir; but that was with 
only half that could be put in culti- 
vation. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — Have you any other lands in 
cultivation ? 

A. — None. 



TUESDAY, MAY 20, 1913, AT 
HOUSTON, TEXAS. 

Testimony of W. G. Wing. 

I have not very much to add to 
what Judge Gill said this morning, 
except to say that his thory regard- 
ing the irrigation along Oyster 
Creek is absolutely practicable, and 
has been carried out to a certain 
extent. That was done with the help 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



247 



and co-operation of the present 
Board of Commissioners, and I under- 
stand was to be carried out this year 
on a large scale. It seems to me 
some reasons for the losses suffered 
by the Penitentiary Commission in 
previous years you have not been 
running • the plant to its highest 
capacity. It is a matter of record 
that the average crop of cane which 
has been made on the Harlem State 
farm for the past ten years is about 
twelve tons to the acre. Now, every- 
body knows you cannot make any 
money raising twelve tons of cane 
to the acre. The experiment carried 
out under Judge Gills' administration, 
was I believe on ninety-three acres 
of black land. Since that time no 
black land has been cultivated in 
cane, and you raised that year some- 
thing over forty tons to the acre on 
that black land. The fact that 
Texas is trying to make money out 
of sugar cane by these old meth- 
ods when it has been proven unsuc- 
cessful in practically every place in 
the world where sugar cane is raised, 
would seem to indicate cane raising 
has not had a fair chance, and some 
of these other places put on as much 
as 2 00 inches of water to the crop 
of cane. Out at the Harlem farm 
we don't have more than 75 per cent. 
of the precipitation we do in Hous- 
ton, and in Houston we do have over 
17 or 18 inches of precipitation dur- 
ing the growing months. There are 
some countries that raise cane that 
get a precipitation of over 100 in- 
ches, but at the same time cannot 
raise cane profitably because it don't 
come at the right time. Over 75 
per cent, of sugar cane is water. 
That is the principal component of 
sugar cane. It has been estimated, 
and proven that you need over 700 
pounds of water to make one pound 
of sugar. Now as regards the irri- 
gation of cane along Oyster creek, 
will say it is not a theory, but it is 
a fact. It was done last year, and 
at no great expense, either. The 
earth 'dams were made last year, and 
water passed over them down below 
Sugar Land. I am not a sugar ex- 
pert, and I am not in position to say 
how cane can be grown in Texas with 
irrigation, but it stands to reason 
cane needs more water than is gen- 
erally supposed, or you will not get 
the maturity of the cane crop. You 
can increase the tonnage by putting 
on water earlier, and assisting na- 



ture by cutting it off, and by that 
way you can mature your sugar cane 
two weeks earlier. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — What business are you in? 

A. — Raising rice, and manager of 
the Cane and Rice Belt Irrigation 
Company. 

Q. — Are you in the business of 
growing rice and cane now? 

A. — Rice; yes, sir. 

Q. — You have a pumping plant, 
have you not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you sell water to any con- 
cerns besides your own? 

A. — Yes, sir. We are irrigating 
about 8000 acres of rice this year. 

Q. — Do I understand you to say 
the precipitation out in the vicinity 
of Harlem farm is about 75 per cent 
of what it is here during the grow- 
ing season? 

A.-^Yes, sir. 

Q. — What distance is that from 
here? 

A. — Twenty-five miles. 

Q. — Do you think that will hold 
good every year? 

A. — I don't know, but so far as 
my own records are concerned, it 
will hold true. 

Q. — Now, if the State should con- 
clude to irrigate its land, are you 
in position to sell them water from, 
your plant? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you ever considered the 
price to be charged? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you mind telling the 
Committee what price you are fig- 
uring on, but at the same time, we 
would like to consider this proposi- 
tion in writing demonstrating deliv- 
ery of the water for the year 1912. 

A. — $5 per acre for a minimum 
of 500 acres, down to $4.25 for 
10,000 acres. 

Q. — How much lift have you? 

A. — We have anything up to 
thirty-four feet. 

Q. — What is the minimum? 

A. — When the water comes over 
the top of the concrete. 

Q. — How do you base those esti- 
mates? 

A. — Delivered at Oyster creek. 

Q. — Then the State would have to 
distribute it over the land. They, 
then, in addition to paying a price 
for your water, would be to the ex- 



248 



Report and Findings of 



pense of putting in a pumping sta- 
tion? 

A. — These dams are already built. 
Now, as to the equipment, the system 
there is sufficient to irrigate all the 
Harlem State farm without any more 
dams, expense or pumping machin- 
ery expense.. 

Q. — But that would only be the 
actual water. In other words, you 
don't supply it right at where we 
would want to irrigate, but you 
simply supply it to the State in Oys- 
ter creek? 

A. — That was the assumption we 
went on last year. 

Q. — How many acres did you en- 
ter into contract to supply water for? 
What was the maximum? 

A. — Up to 35.000 acres. 

Q. — For what period of time? 

A. — Just as long as the State 
wanted it. 

Q. — Have you read the recent en- 
actment of the irrigation laws? 

A. — I have read it in the past. 

Q. — What is to prevent the State 
from pumping its own water out of 
the Brazos River? 

A. — Nothing. 

Q. — Is there any point on the 
State's lands bordering on the 
Brazos River that would be suitable 
for a State plant for irrigation pur- 
poses? 

A. — I am not sure. I think, how- 
ever, Mr. Eldridge once had a pump- 
ing plant there. The lift was too 
high. 

Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
the State's lands to tell the Commit- 
tee whether or not the State's lands 
could be irrigated with one lift? In 
other words, at the expense of only 
pumping it the first time. I am try- 
ing to find out if it would be to our 
advantage to take it away from you. 

A. — I would guess from what I 
know of the country that on the 
southern part of the Imperial farm 
you could, but you would have to 
raise the water too high, and it 
would be too expensive a proposition 
to do it. 

Q. — Would you mind telling the 
Committee what you furnish water 
for the rice farms at? 

A. — $6 to $7.50, and based on 
the distance from our second lift. 

Q. — You have plenty of water at 
all times? 

A. — Yes, sir; all the time. 

Q. — If the State farms were pre- 
pared to receive the water, it would 
cost a great deal per acre to pre- 



pare the land, and if after the land 
was prepared and we could not get 
the water, then the State would be 
at a great expense. 

A. — The Brazos River is the most 
plentiful stream in Texas. 

Q. — You think it would not ma- 
terially diminish the .supply? 

A.: — I took this question up with 
Mr. Stiles, and a half dozen pump- 
ing plants would not materially af- 
fect the flow of the Brazos River. 
The flow of the Brazos River is uni- 
form and it is greater than any other 
river in the State of Texas. Of 
course, there has been no survey of 
the State properties to show they can 
be economically irrigated. A survey 
was made at the time Judge Gill was 
chairman and Mr. Rice made a sur- 
vey last month. 

Q. — You say Oyster Creek is a 
stream that has made its own banks 
higher on each side? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is there any profit in raising 
rice? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How far back from Oyster 
Creek would you have to carry water 
to get it on the Harlem farm? 

A. — I think the survey to the low- 
est dam is five miles from our out- 
let. 

Q. — Have you figured out the loss 
of water by evaporation and seep- 
age? 

A. — Only estimated it. It is fig- 
ured as high as 5.16 per cent per 
mile. 

Q. — That is 2 5 per cent to the 
Harlem farm. 

A. — That is according to whether 
or not you are in a dry or moist 
country. It depends on the weather 
conditions as much as anything else. 
The dry winds we have from the 
northwest makes Texas a drier coun- 
try than the tropics. 



TUESDAY, MAY 20, 1913, AT 
HOUSTON, TEXAS. 

Testimony of H. L. Peterson. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — What business are you in? 

A. — I am with the John Deera 
Plow Company. 

Q. — Have you had any business 
V/ith the prison system? 

A. — Yes, sir; for the past two 
years. Some before that; but large- 
ly the last two years. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



249 



q — What is the extent of your 
business with the penitentiary sys- 
tem? 

A — I guess for the year 1912, and 
part of 1911 and 1913, it would run 
about $11,000 or $12,000. 

q. — Have you sold any goods to 
the prison system recently? 

A. — We have sold them some this 
year; not much, though. 

q. — is that due to their not need- 
ing the implements, or was it because 
they did not have the cash? 

A. — I think it was principally on 
account of the Commissioners trying 
to hold their purchases down. 

Q. — Is it because you do not want 
to do any business with the State 
since it has been a credit system? 

A. — We consider the State's credit 
all right. 

Q. — And the fact that the Commis- 
sioners have not had the money at 
hand and could not guarantee you 
when t-hey were going to have it, has 
not been the reason why you ad- 
vanced your prices at all? 
A. — No. sir. 

Q.— -And you have not advanced 
your prices? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — And you are willing to sell 
them now at these prices? 

A. — I am willing to sell them at 
cash prices on a credit basis. In 
fact, all our business with the State 
has been on a credit basis, but we 
have given them the cash price. 

Q. — What I am trying to bring 
out is I am mighty glad to find one 
person in Texas who did not feel 
they ought to add 10 or 2 per cent, 
because they did not get cash. 

A. — I am willing to sell the Prison 
Commissioners now, or in the future, 
at the very best price I can. 



MONDAY, MAY 19, AT HOUSTON, 
TEXAS. 

Testimony by J. B. Thomas: 

By Lieutenant Governor Will H. 
Mayes: 

q. — What is your name, Mr. 
Thomas? 

A. — J. B. Thomas. 

Q. — What is your home? 

A. — Denton County, Texas. 

q. — What position did you hold 
with the penitentiary system? 

A. — Assistant manager on the 
Clemens farm. 



Q. — What business have you been 
engaged in in Denton? 
A. — Farming. 

Q. — How long have you lived in 
Denton County? 

A. — About 22 years. 
Q. — Do you own a farm in Den- 
ton County? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How large was the farm you 
owned in Denton? 
A. — 415 acres. 

Q. — How long have you been op- 
erating a farm? 

A. — I have been a farmer all my 
life, but have owned this farm about 
fifteen years. 

Q. — You have been connected with 
the penitentiary system? 

A. — Yes, sir; at the Clemens farm. 
Q. — When did you go to work for 
the penitentiary system? 

A. — The 28th of last August. 
Q. — And when were you let out? 
A. — I think about the 4th of this 
month. 

Q. — Why were you let out? 
A. — Well, the reason why, accord- 
ing to the copy of the complaint 
against me, I was hard to get along 
with and not big enough for the job, 
but what I think about it, the man- 
ager, bookkeeper or somebody else 
opened a letter of mine, took a copy 
of it, and sent it to the Commission- 
ers at Huntsville. 

Q. — Is this the letter to which you 
refer? 

A. — -Yes, sir. This was broken 
open in the office, and a copy was 
sent to the Commissioners, and I 
think that was what I was let out 
for. 

Q.— By whom were you let out? 
A.— Manager E. B. Mills. 
Q. — Was there any trial or any 
charges against you before you were 
let out? 

A.— Not that I ever heard of. 
Q. — Nothing but the reason given 
in your discharge, as stated? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Will you state briefly the con- 
tents of this letter? 

A. — Well', I felt like — and knew I 
was up against it down there — and 
that they wanted to get a foot on 
me, and I wrote friend Hopkins in 
Denton and asked him to get Gov- 
ernor Colquitt and also the Commis- 
sioners or Mr. Cabell, to help me out. 
I hated to lose the job on account of 
renting out my farm, and I wanted 
to stay there *his year, and I knew 



250 



Report and Findings of 



other men wanted the job and were 
trying to talk me out of it. 

Q. — You were at that time Assist- 
ant Manager? 

A. — I was one of the Assistants 
of Camp No. 4. I was First Assist- 
ant at Camp No. 1, and was after- 
wards changed to Camp No. 4. I 
was at Camp No. 4 when I was dis- 
charged. Now I will state that after 
I heard of this, I went to the man- 
ager and asked him about it, and 
he said he had written the Commis- 
sioners to remove me, and he said 
they might give me a better job. He 
says "you don't seem to be satis- 
fied," and I told him I had never 
told him that. I then asked him to 
let me off for a few days, and I came 
to Houston and called up the Com- 
missioners at Huntsville, and they 
were not there. I talked to Mr. 
Haynes, and he told me they were 
over at Rusk, and then I cailed up 
Mr. Cabell and told him I wanted 
a hearing, and if I had done anything 
wrong or was not big enough for the 
job I wanted a hearing, and Mr. 
Cabell told me I could have a hear- 
ing. 

Q. — Was a hearing ever given you? 

A. — No, sir; I went to Huntsville; 
waited for them to come, and the 
day after that slim fellow, Wolf, I 
think his name is, handed me the 
discharge when I came in, and so I 
handed Mr. Cabell a copy of that. 

Q. — This statement here? 

A. — Yes, sir. I told him it was 
like introducing evidence after I was 
convicted. 

Q. — Now you make here some 
charges against 'the management of 
the Clemens farm. I notice charge 
1st: I charge a number of the 
guards, also other employes, of 
drinking whiskey; getting drunk, 
and they are never discharged, pro- 
vided they are some of the old time 
employes? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I want you to name some of 
the employes and guards who drink 
whiskey and get drunk on that farm. 

A. — On the night that the Legis- 
lative Committee was down there — 
I don't know the date — there was an 
old man by the name of P. O. Lump- 
kin, got drunk under the saddle 
shed. He laid off that day, and 
went to Brazoria, and had to be car- 
ried in by negro trusties. He was 
drunk the next day on Sunday. I 
told Mr. Ellis about it a day or two 
afterwards, and he was never dis- 



charged. He is still there, and has 
never even laid off. 

Q. — What trustie carried him in? 

A. — I can give one: Bill Brittain, 
and the other they called him "Old 
Specks," I think his name is Ben 
Marshall. There was another fellow 
by the name of George Moss. He 
went to Brazoria and got drunk up 
there and laid out until about day- 
light the next morning with his 
horse. 

Q. — Is he still there? 

A. — Never was discharged. 

Q. — Do you know of anybody else 
who saw him drunk at Brazoria? 

A. — I saw him, and others saw 
him that knew he was drunk. 

Q. — What others saw him? 

A. — Haley Matthews saw him. 

Q. — Who was he? 

A. — He was the dog sergeant. 

Q. — Any others saw him drunk? 

A. -7-1 think Paul McWilliams saw 
him. I can't say. 

Q. — Was this case reported to Cap- 
tain Mills? 

A. — Yes, sir; and he is still there. 

Q. — Well, any other cases of 
drunkenness? 

A. — About two or three weeks 
ago another man by the name of 
Billy Cleveland got on a drunk and 
was down at the sugar house where 
I was. Went in the picket there 
drunk. I went down and told him 
to get away from the place. He got 
on his horse and went down to Camp 
No. 3 where he was working, and he 
was laid off for ten days. 

Q. — He was laid off ten days on 
account of drunkenness? 

A. — Yes,' sir. 

Q. — Then reinstated? 

A. — He is at the Retrieve, I think 
they call it. 

Q. — Anyone else see him drunk in 
the sugar house? 

A. — Yes, sir; they all saw him. 
Sid Smith, Crow and myself and Paul 
McWilliams. Of course Mr. Mills 
knew he was drunk. 

Q. — Any other case of drunken- 
ness? 

A. — Well, I can't tell you. They 
drink all the time, and it will show 
on the express books at Brazoria. 

Q. — How do they get whiskey out 
there? 

A. — -Well, that convict bookkeeper 
they got whiskey out on the 6th of 
this month. They got five quarts of 
whisky out. The fellow who runs 
the pool hall there signed for it. His 
name is Caldwell, and on the 12th 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



251 



they got five more quarts out. They 
got it from the Globe Bar, and this 
fellow Caldwell signed for that too. 

Q. — How do they get it from Bra- 
zoria out to the farms? 

A. — By the negro trusties; one 
named Sam Styles. 

Q. — And the others? 

A. — One named Ed Moore. 

Q. — Any others? 

A. — I can't say. I can't think of 
that other little negro's name. He 
said if he told it he would have bad 
luck. He told me he could not af- 
ford to tell it, as it was told him 
if he told about the whiskey that a 
pistol might go off. 

Q. — You say they get it continu- 
ally; regularly? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Has that been going on regu- 
larly? 

A. — All the time. Now, I will state 
here T never was accused of talking 
so much until this time, but the talk 
just hit them where they lived, and 
a little went a long way. I want to 
state further — 

Q. — At whose suggestion are you 
here before this Committee? 

A. — By the Governor and by you. 

Q. — Now the second charge is: I 
charge the guards are gambling and 
they have convict trusties looking out 
for them in case of private citizens? 

A. — I have gone in on them my- 
self where they were gambling, and 
asked the guards not to do it. I went 
in on them the other night. Not 
very long ago, a fellow by the name 
of Bill Saycrs and McCrowery. and 
a fellow by the name of Crow. 

Q. — Found them there gambling? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now the negro trus- 
ties tol 1 rae they borrowed dice from 
them to shoot craps with. 

Q. — v'hat trusties told you that? 

A. — I can't think of but one. They 
call him 'Pull Do." He is the negro 
that carries the water. 

Q. — Y\ T hr>T. trusties have been 
watching for them? 

A. — He i? the one who told me 
about this dice business, and another 
nefrro i :imed Majors. 

Q. — Do you know any others? 

A.- -Well, Capt. Smith told me ho 
knew they were gambling. He is 
over at No. I. 

Q. — Did you ever hear them talk- 
ing among themselves about their 
games? 

A. — Yes. sir; I have heard them 
\ speak about it some. 



Q. — The third charge is: They 
let convicts gamble anywhere on the 
-\orks when they have leisure time. 

A. — Yes, sir; I have seen it sev- 
eral times, and I want to give you 
one case; here some little time ago 
they were ditching right west of the 
sugar house, and they got down in 
the cane carrier and shot craps with 
all the guards standing round and 
guarding them. I never would stand 
for that when I was guarding them, 
but it was almost impossible to do 
it. 

By Senator Willacy: 

Q. — Were they shooting craps for 
money? 

A. — Money and tobacco. 

By Governor Mayes: 

Q. — Anything done to stop them 
from gambling? 

A. — Nothing that I know of. 

Q. — Any other cases you know of? 

A. — No, sir; I would not state any 
more. I saw them one evening gamb- 
i ling on the ball ground — shooting 
craps — but I did not go close enough 
to see if they were shooting for 
money or anything. 

Q. — You say they curse or abuse 
the convicts, and if they write the 
Governor or the Commissioners and 
the letters are returned, they cure 
them of that, and the first time they 
make any kind of crooked steps they 
hang them on chains and take all 
their good time away? 

A. — Here some time ago, there 
was a little negro called "Casey 
Jones" — a little yellow negro — I was 
told he wrote the Governor, and his 
letter was returned, and they told 
him they had a good notion to take 
a scantling and knock his brains out 
with it. That comes to me through 
a negro trustie, but I am sure it is 
so, for I have seen enough of that 
bunch to know it. 

Q. — Any other cases? 

A. — I think there was another 
case, but think the negro has been 
discharged. 

Q. — Have you ever heard much 
cursing or abusing of convicts? 

A. — Yes, sir; quite a lot. The 
guards talk about the good old times 
they used to have. You never hear 
a conversation of decency. 

Q. — You say they tell the con- 
victs "they don't give a d how 

many times they mutiny?" 

A. — Well, I have heard Matthews 
say that several times. He is one 
of those fellows who knows it all. 



252 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Anyone else make that state- 
ment? 

A. — Paul McWilliams. 

Q. — What brought about this kind 
of statement to the convicts? 

A. — The convicts were not doing 
to suit them, or something, or fight- 
ing, or something like that. It is 
natural for them to fight at times. 

Q. — Why did they tell them they 
did not care how much they mu- 
tinied? 

A. — I have heard them say they 
would be glad when the Governor's 
time was out, and the bat brought 
back into use. 

Q. — Are the employes on that 
farm in sympathy with the pres- 
ent humanitarian part of the law? 

A. — They are in favor of the bat. 
They tell the convicts they can't get 
the work out of them without the 
use of the bat. When the recom- 
mendation was made by the Gov- 
ernor to make guards out of con- 
victs, they said they would resign, 
and all that. I don't think you 
could run them off. They try to 
make the people believe, and have 
made them believe, that it takes a 
long time to gain the experience of 
handling convicts, and that it takes 
a man above the average to do that. 
I want to say further that if it did 
take a man above the average, in my 
judgment, they would have to get 
away from there to find them. 

Q. — When the legislative commit- 
tee goes to the farm there to investi- 
gate, what attitude do they assume? 

A. — They are mighty smiling and 
nice. 

Q. — Do they appear to be in sym- 
pathy with the law? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What do they say when the 
Committee leaves? 

A. — Well, they say a plenty. 

Q. — About what do they say? 
W T hat comment did they make when 
Mr. Reedy make his statement in 
the paper? 

A. — Why, they were all going to 
answer it through the press, but I 
never did see the answer. 

Q. — All the guards? 

A. — Yes, sir. They know all about 
how to run the thing. 

Q. — In other words, when the In- 
vestigating Committee is there they 
are in sympathy with the law, and 
when the Investigating Committee is 
not there, they are not in sympathy 
with the law? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Mr. Tillotson suggests at this 
time that the Committee have Mr: 
Thomas go with them to the farm, 
as he thinks Mr. Thomas has stated 
enough to the Committee to have 
him go there. This suggestion not 
acted upon. 

A. — It is going to be pretty hard 
<o prove this. I thought I had been 
in awfully corrupt places and 
crowds, but I never have been until 
this time. It is the "God's truth." 
I have been mistreated and T think 
1 have as much ability as any of 
that bunch. I have made a living 
and accumulated a little property, 
and have accumulated it right. I 
try to do the right thing. They 
won't tell the truth. There is ab- 
solutely no honesty in them at all. 
I am sure about this, and I think I 
have been unjustly mistreated. I 
believe if the Commissioners had in- 
vestigated they would never have let 
me out. These Commissioners don't 
know anything about this, or they 
would never have done this, and 
further, Governor Mayes, when they 
sent Judge Campbell there the other 
day to investigate, they had the 
manager and old timers in the office, 
and they would bring m trusties to 
testify. Those trusties would have 
been mighty foolish to have f .Id the 
truth. 

Recessed for Dinner. 

Q. — Now, Mr. Thomas, is it your 
opinion if a new man goes to the 
Clemens farm as a sergeant, or 
guard, and tries to raise the moral 
standard of the men, tells them it 
is wrong to gamble, drink whisky, 
etc., it immediately becomes un- 
pleasant for him? 

A. — Yes, sir; I know this to be 
a fact. 

Q. — That is due to the fact that 
there are so many men there that 
have no sympathy for reform? 

A. — Yes, sir; I take it that way. 
They know the people of Texas are 
against them and it makes them as 
sore as they can be, ana they wanf 
the new ones out. 

Q. — You think it is impossible for 
a new man to go there who is op- 
posed to these things — to go there 
and get along with these men? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In other words, you think 
there will have to be a complete 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



253 



change if any reformation is brought 
about? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do the men there attend 
church? 

A. — I asked the manager there if 
he would go to church with me. He 
said: "I will go som3 time with 
you, but I have not been in a church 
since Governor Lanham was Gov- 
ernor." I did get two or three 
guards to go to church and Sunday 
school with me in place of going 
to Brazoria after a negro wench. 

Q. — How did they spend their 
Sundays? 

A. — On Sunday morning '"hey 
would go to Brazoria and hitch their 
horses to those negro houses, and 
sometimes stay all night. 

Q. — In what numbers do they go 
to Brazoria on Sundays? 

A. — Probably three-fourths of 
them. 

Q. — How many guards on the 
farm? 

A. — About seventy-five. 

Q. — And three-fourths of them go 
to Brazoria on Sunday and spend 
their time in houses of ill fame? 

A. — Yes, sir. Here two or three 
Sundays ago I went to Brazoria — 
went up about the State Bank, and 
came back, and rode back through 
and saw four or five horses hitched 
around there by a negro hut, and I 
got down and went in and saw who 
was there. I had been told about 
this, and I wanted to know if I was 
correct or not. I came on down 
here and find they tell on me that 
I went to bed with a negro woman; 
got drunk, and the guard says — Old 
Joe Crews is the man, I suppose, 
swore it. He is the man who 
brought a negro woman from 



county here, and Bush brought her 
here to Houston and filled her 
mouth with gold, and you can ask 
John Gillam and he is the man who 
tells this, I think. I want you to 
find out who tells this on me. They 
told this in order to keep me from 
telling this, but I would have told 
it or busted, but this is something 
I have never done. I never went to 
bed with a negro woman in my life. 

Q. — Who can we establish this by? 

A. — I think they will deny it, but 
they say a man who won't fool with 
them is no good, and you can estab- 
lish this by the Methodist preacher, 
and also the fellow keeping the store, 
and they are kicking about it, and 



I think all the people in Brazoria 
will tell you that. 

Q. — Can you refer to anybody es- 
pecially? 

A. — I really know nobody there. 

Q. — You speak about the Meth- 
odist minister? 

A. — His name is Hines. 

Q. — Now, you state the bookkeep- 
er here at the Clemens farm and the 
guard went to Brazoria, took a con- 
vict trusty with them and gave him 
money to buy the whisky, and they 
hid the whisky, where the trusty 
could see them hide it, and the 
trusty and another convict drank it? 

A. — Now, the day that they went, 
old man Mason, bookkeeper, and 
Smith, a guard, went to Brazoria 
and took the negro "Pull Do" with 
them, and when he came back that 
evening I wanted him to do some- 
thing, and I called him up, and I 
could see something was wrong 
with him. I asked him where 
he got his whisky, and he said: 
"Who told you?" He said: "I 
went to Brazoria with Boss Ma- 
son and Boss Smith, and they 
gave me a dollar and I bought a 
quart of whisky with it, and they 
hid it at Dr. De Walt's* the State doc- 
tor, and we got it and drank it — 
me and old Dave." Dave is an old 
negro with a broken arm. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Did the State doctor know it? 

A. — No, sir; he did not know it. 
Now, I would love to tell you further 
about this. Now, this old man did 
not know I knew this, and one night 
I was over at Mason's, and we got 
to talking and he said: "I want to 
see you at supper time." There was 
a little gin south of the building, 
and we walked over there, and of 
course it was rumored around I was 
fixing to burn the gin or sugar 
house. We talked about the pardon 
of that fellow Trewsdale, and that 
he was a pretty good fellow, and — 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — Now, you stated: "On last 
Monday, dated May 3rd, he, the 
bookkeeper, Mason, took another 
negro trusty — who is that trusty? 

A. — That negro is called "Shorty" 
Black on the railroad. I think his 
name is L. Woods, and he was sent 
up from Caldwell. 

Q. — "And some of the guards", — 
what guards? 



254 



Report and Findings of 



A. — One named Robinson; one 
named Crowe, still there, and a fel- 
low named Johnson, still there. Old 
McWilliams was in the gang. 

Q. — Any others? 

A. — All I remember. 

Q. — "And went fishing and took 
along five quarts of whiskey, and 
they had a fight among themselves"? 

A. — Crowe and Johnson had a 
fight, and one of them said he run 
under some vines, and he looked like 
he had run under something. 

Q. — What about that fight? 

A. — They fought over a poker 
game they told me, and afterwards 
they found out I knew it. I just 
said enough to them to let them 
know I knew it — they being so de- 
cent and knew so much about the 
convict business, and this negro trus- 
tie told me they said if he told this, 
he would have had bad luck if the 
Commissioners or Investigating Com- 
mittee came there; that a gun might 
go off and a nigger get killed. In 
reference to the first whiskey case, 
after I got after old man Mason, the 
next evening the negro came in with 
the water wagon, old Mason met him 
at the gate, and he told him if he 
would not telf this he would make it 
all right with him. Now I want to 
tell you some more, about the gamb- 
ling business. Now I will tell you 
about this. Along in the winter 
when it was raining so much they 
played cards two or three days for 
fun. They would take twenty 
matches in a freeze-out poker game, 
and whoever got froze out bought the 
cigars, and I did some of that sev- 
eral times myself. Sometimes we 
would buy the cigars and sometimes 
we did not. It was more for fun 
than anything else. 

Q. — Now, you state that this citi- 
zen bookkeeper, Mason, and the con- 
vict bookkeeper, Joe McCann, stand 
in together and rob the convicts out 
of their discharge money in the fol- 
lowing manner: "When a negro's 
time is nearly out they go to him and 
tell him he is a good negro, and 
they will loan him money if he wants 
it, and take it out of his per diem. 
He takes this money, and on the day 
of his discharge they get him in the 
office and abuse him, and of course, 
he has to stand for it. One negro 
has been discharged." — 

A. — That negro's name was Potts. 
That was for overshoes, and when 
you go down there you will find a 



whole lot of orders in the office they 
have taken this money for. There 
was an old negro discharged some 
time ago called Loyd Record. I tried 
to catch him myself for bootlegging, 
and he afterwards went to Sherman 
and went up from there for boot- 
legging, and when he was discharged, 
I understand they had all his money. 
There is also a negro called "Boots." 
They got over $30 from him. 

Q. — In other words, as soon as 
they find out a man is to be dis- 
charged, they conspire to get him in 
debt? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Do they take a receipt for it? 
A. — Yes, sir. Now the books will 
show all right. I take it like this: 
those negroes that are in the peni- 
tentiary, they are glad to get away, 
and if you knew what I do you would 
think that way too, and they are glad 
to take anything and get away and 
give them a receipt for any amount. 

Q. — They give them a receipt for 
the amount? 

A. — Yes, sir; that is the way it is 
done. 

Q. — Is that common practice? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now I did not tell 
you about the investigation in the 
forenoon that I started to. Judge 
Campbell came down there to investi- 
gate the complaints I have made and 
about the things going on there, and 
they asked me to come down to the 
office. Well, I declined to do it. I 
thought I was liable to get shot in 
the back. Now this was the way 
this investigation was held. Mr. Mills 
would be in the office; old man Joe 
Crews, and Ab Lee would be in the 
office, and they would send this 
Haley, the king, of convicts, over 
there to bring the negroes out be- 
fore this Judge Campbell, and in my 
judgment, these negroes would not 
tell anything about this. They would 
tell it in their favor if they told any- 
thing. I think they would be foolish 
to do it any other way in my mind. 

Q. — Have you ever known of any 
instance where a gun did go off? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — This man Mason was book- 
keeper? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How long has he been there? 

A. — Not long. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



255 



Q. — Does he keep the books? 

A. — If you will find a line he has 
written I will put a good bat on your 
head. He may keep track of the 
money he gets pretty well for dis- 
charges. 

Q. — What salary does Mason get? 

A. — $75 per month. 

Q. — What does he do? 

A. — The only thing I have seen 
him do is to go to Brazoria with a 
negro trustie, and signs for goods 
that are shipped in there. He goes 
in a hack, and the negroes go in a 
wagon and bring it out, and he is sup- 
posed to be head steward, or some- 
thing like that. 

Q. — Does he do that? 

A. — I have never caught him at 
it. They have also got old man Lee 
to look after the cooking. He gets 
$40 per month. 

Q.— Does Lee look after the cook- 
ing? 

A. — I have seen him around the 
building a few times along. 

Q. — Who does look after it? 

A. — Negro trusties, I think about 
all. 

Q. — Who does the bookkeeping? 

A. — A convict by the name of Joe 
McCann. 

Q. — Who is Joe McCann? 

A. — He is a convict who used to 
live in Denton. He was in the groc- 
ery business and went into bank- 
ruptcy, and from there to Fort 
Worth, and from there to Panhandle. 
He was sent up from Panhandle, I 
think. He has a wife and two chil- 
dren there now. 

Q. — Did you know him before he 
went to the penitentiary? 

A. — Just did know him. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
his record? 

A. — He tried to forge some checks 
and — 

Q. — What is he in the peniten- 
tiary for? 

A. — Embezzlement. 

Q. — You state that a man sent 
down by the Commission last fall, 
Pat Alpine, to take charge of the 
force at the sugar house, was in ac- 
cord with the administration, and 
they discharged him? 

A. — Now I did not know a great 
deal about him. He seemed to have 
plenty of common sense, and I 
thought he was doing all right, and 
I believe he was a good man. but 
really when he first came Mr. Mills 
said he did not know what the Com- 



missioners meant by sending a man 
like him. 

Q. — And they discharged him? 

A. — Yes, sir. They asked him to 
resign. 

Q. — He brought two or three good 
guards with him? 

A. — He brought some boys by the 
name of Willis with him, and the 
old guards said they were talking to 
the convicts, and that was enough. 

Q. — You speak about a man named 
Lindsey? 

A. — That was a little fellow that 
used to work. I saw r a letter to him 
asking him to come to St. Louis for 
a road master up there. He came 
down there to work for me. He had 
a little store and had sold it out. 
He had Governor Colquitt's pic- 
tures put up all over it. and 
seemed to think a lot of him. 
One night I walked out with 
him, and I said: We have got 
to be careful, and he said: "By God, 
I have never talked to but one of the 
convicts, and that was the water 
boy," so the next morning he went 
on down with his gun, and gave them 
the gun, and he told me he would 
not stay w r ith this gang at all. He 
is a man of intelligence — above the 
ordinary — a man who can command 
a job anywhere. 

Q. — You state the convict book- 
keeper is allowed to keep whiskey in 
the office, and gives it to the guards. 
Does he do that regularly? 

A. — Mr. Stanely, who used to be 
the county superintendent of the 
schools at Matagorda, he told me 
that Frank Frazier, who works at 
the sugar house, and a fellow by the 
name of Smith, and is now at No. 1 
Camp, he told me they told him 
they offered him whiskey, but he 
wouldn't tell me if they drank it. 

Q. — What was the cause of the 
sugar house mutiny last fall? 

A. — Mr. Mills sent a man down 
there by the name of Freeman Hill 
who used to be on the police force, - 
and he is a cousin to Mills' wife. 
Now he was the sergeant and he 
would try to run the whole thing. 
He would nag the men, and I think 
this was one the causes of the mut- 
iny coming on. Now in regard to 
Hill, I was over at Mills' and this 
fellow went along with me and spoke 
tor the dogs. Mr. Mills said Free- 
man would make a good dog, and I 
said I would just as soon have him 
as anybody, and he told some others 



256 



Report and Findings of 



he would have my job in a few days, 
that is, if he wanted it. Now that 
fellow Paul McWilliams, down there, 
I asked Mills not to send him, and 
the reason I did not want him, he 
writes to a negro woman, and he 
and A. B. Lee had a falling out over 
a negro woman there one Sunday, 
and had a fight and did not speak to 
each other for several weeks. 

Q. — Getting back to the mutiny, 
what did vou say was the cause of 
that? 

A. — Hill was the cause of that by 
nagging the men, however, it might 
have come at any time for the men 
were hard to get along with. • You 
know, Governor, the old gang thinks 
it takes a man, to be a convict man, 
that hangs them in the chains pretty 
often, and he has to curse them, and 
run after negro women. 

Q. — In other words, you think the 
mutiny was caused by incompetency 
in handling the men? 

A. — Yes, sir. I want to state fur- 
ther that if I thought I was as weak 
under the hat in a way of making 
a living or support on a 'farm, that I 
would try and turn my wife and five 
kids over to the poor farm. I don't 
believe you could give — 

Q. — What about the system of 
farming down there on the Clemens 
farm? How was the cotton planted 
there last year? 

A. — They hoed the last year's cot- 
ton twice before they plowed it. I 
don't know if the teams were too 
scarce or not. 

Q. — How much cotton was there 
planted on the farm? 

A. — Eight hundred to one thous- 
and acres. 

Q. — Was it hoed? 

A. — Twice, I think. All on No. 1 
Camp was. 

Q. — How was the cotton planted 
this year? 

A. — I said when they planted it 
the first time: I would eat it when 
it came up. 

Q. — How was it planted? 

A. — Too deep. 

Q. — How deep was it planted? 

A. — Four or five inches. 

Q. — How much cotton was there 
planted that way? 

A. — I could not tell you. Several 
hundred acres. 

Q. — Did any of that come up? 

A. — A few. 

Q. — Was the cotton replanted? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Q. — What other comments have 
you to make in regard to the farm- 
ing? 

A. — I have never cultivated any 
sugar cane in my life, and they try 
to make people believe that it is a 
great professor's job. I think any- 
body with average farming sense and 
judgment could work the cane. I 
have made the statement that I 
would stake my farm on getting on 
the other side of the fence and mak- 
ing a cane crop and working it. I 
believe I can do it. 

Q. — Have you told all you know 
about conditions? Anything else? 

A. — I don't know that I have any- 
thing else to say. I want to say 
further I don't believe I would have 
ever been let out if the Commission- 
ers had known the truth about it. 
I would rather show a man what is 
done and not tell him. 

Q. — At whose instance were you 
sent to the Clemens farm? 

A. — At first? 

Q. — How did you get into the em- 
ployment of the system? 

A. — I applied to Mr. Cabell and 
the Commissioners for it, and got 
some of my friends to ask for it 
for men. I just did know Mr. Ca- 
bell and Mr. Brahan. 

Q. — How often did Mr. Brahan 
visit the Clemens farm? 

A. — He is down there every month 
or two. I have tried to make good 
down there, and ate in the field, and 
done everything I knew and when 
Mr. Brahan came down there I 
don't believe I hardly ever saw him, 
but the old gang would always man- 
age to see him. They don't do 
anything. Mr. Brahan at this time 
makes a statement that he is very 
bitter against whiskey, and says he 
thinks the Legislature will remember 
that he and Mr. Cabell tried to get 
a law passed in regard to intoxicat- 
ing liquors being used by the em- 
ployes of the prison system, but that 
he feels Mr. Thomas mistreated the 
Commission in not making a state- 
ment to Captain Mill and forward- 
ing it to the Commission, and that he 
did not believe Mr. Thomas would 
do them the injustice by saying he 
acted right in this matter. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — Did you report about the 
Lumpkin case? 

A. — Yes, sir. I was assistant 
there and now to show you.' One 
night here three or four guards v^ere 
over at a negro house, and a fellow 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



257 



named Griffin, Paul McWilliams, and 
I think a fellow named Carroll, and 
maybe another one or two, and this 
fellow Griffin stole a watch from 
one negro woman, and maybe some 
money, and the next morning it was 
reported to me, and I fired him my- 
self, and they sent him to another 
sugar house, and he is now back. 
Never has been discharged. I want- 
ed to stay there one year anyhow, 
and I tried to be quiet, and so far 
as my talking so much was concern- 
ed, I never did that. It just touched 
them. 

Q. — You did report this to Mr. 
Mills? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And no action was taken on 
it? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Is that fellow Griffin still 
there? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Was it generally known 
among the convicts these guards 
were drinking? 

A. — Sure they did. They even 
went into the building to borrow 
dice to shoot craps with. 

Q. — What influence does drinking 
have on the conduct of the con- 
victs? 

A. — I don't think you can raise 
the moral standard of anybody un- 
less you are right yourself. I think 
it has a bad influence. 

Lieutenant Governor Mayes inter- 
rogates Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — Did any of you Commission- 
ers receive a copy of a letter from 
Mr. Thomas to R. R. Hopkins? 

A. — Yes, sir; we received that and 
1 placed it before the Commission. 

Q. — Who sent that letter? 

A. — Captain Mills. I have never 
considered anything I got since I 
came into the Commission as confi- 
dential, and I placed it at once be- 
fore the Commission. 

Q. — Did Captain Mills explain how 
he came in possession of the letter? 

A. — He did afterwards. He said 
this convict said the letter came in- 
to the office opened, and he thought 
it was a convict letter, and he told 
Mr. Mills he thought he ought to 
read it, and Captain Mills sent it to 
me, and the next day Mr. Tittle was 
there and I showed the letter to him. 

The Chairman of the Committee 
a i this time instructed the stenog- 
rapher to make record of the fact 
that the letter bears the return card 



of Jno. B. Thomas, Brazoria, Texas. 

Mr. Thomas makes the following 
statement: That letter was written 
at my home, and that is not the only 
letter broken open of mine. They all 
conspired together and agreed with 
each other where to fix the blame. 
Old man Watson also had a letter 
broken open. I want to say now 
when I get to breaking open pri- 
vate mail, I don't want them to give 
me anything. I have nothing, how- 
ever, in this letter that I feel 
ashamed of. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
other proceedings of this kind? 

A. — No, sir; I have never been on 
another State farm. 

Q. — Have you heard? 

A. — No, sir; I have never paid 
much attention to this. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
the groceries or supplies received 
at that camp? 

A. — Nothing, only they are ship- 
ped in there. 

Q. — Do you know if there is any 
checks kept on them as to amounts? 

A. — No, sir; I don't know. 

Q. — How about your supplies at 
Camp No. 1? Did you make requi- 
sition for those supplies? 

A. — The steward there did. He 
attended to that, and he would send 
up for what he wanted and a wagon 
would bring it down. 

Q. — Do you know of any supplies 
being given away or sold? 

A. — No, sir; I know nothing about 
that. 

Q. — Do you know of any other 
character of waste around there? 

A. — I don't think they live econ- 
omically. I think there is a lot of 
old "dead beats" that can't see and 
don't care how the business is 
handled. I think they need a good 
live man who will do something 
there. 

Q. — How many convicts did you 
have there? 

A. — About seven hundred. 

Q. — How many guards? 

A. — About seventy-five. 

Q. — How many are old men? 

A. — I don't know of any real new 
ones. I don't know. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes. 

Q. — You receive your supplies for 
yourself and family free? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is there any limit? 

A. — If there was I did not know 
of it. 



258 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Did you receipt for those sup- 
plies? 

A. — No, sir; they kept track of it 
at the office. Now, my wife — I al- 
ways told her when she wanted any- 
thing to write an order and send over 
for it. We did not try to waste any- 
thing, Governor. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — How many acres of land did 
you cultivate? 

A. — Something about like 5000 
acres. 

Q. — Did it take all that 700 men 
to cultivate the 5000 acres? 

A. — No, sir; there are too many 
men there. There are men there 
who are not earning their salt. No 
way in the world for the place to 
pay like it is. 

Q. — What is the character of the 
soil? 

A. — Peach soil, they call it. 

Q. — Will it make good cotton? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — While you were there how 
many men were engaged in clearing 
land? 

A. — That is since the Mexicans 
came. They came about seventy-five 
at first, and part of them were not 
able to work, and then later on a 
few more, and afterwards it ran up 
to about 110 men. I could not give 
you any record exactly. 

Q. — All those engaged in clear- 
ing land? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — So the number actually oper- 
ating the farm was considerably less 
than — 

A. — You know, Mr. Tillotson, 
there are a whole lot of men who 
are not able to work, such as crip- 
ples, etc. 

Q. — Do you think during the time 
you were there it would average 100 
men engaged in ditching, clearing, 
etc.? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you be able to approx- 
imate the amount of clearing done 
while you were there? 

A. — No, sir; I would not. Since 
the Mexicans came they have been 
clearing altogether. 

Q. — You spoke about the method 
of planting awhile ago. I wish you 
would state what your duties were 
in regard to the planting. 

A. — They gave me the Mexicans, 
and I have been clearing with them 
until I was discharged. 



Q. — You have referred several 
times, Mr. Thomas, to the fact that 
the majority of the guards there 
were not in accord with the admin- 
istration. Will you please give your 
interpration of what is in accord and 
what not? 

A. — Now, my reason for that is 
every time anything came out in the 
the paper — Mr. Brahan made a state- 
ment that came out — about convicts 
being promoted and used as guards, 
they challenged that; said they 
would resign, and all that, and con- 
tinued talking like that, and how 
strong they believed in the bat bus- 
iness. I think a man ought to leave 
that off. A man can't use it, and 
men ought to try some other way. 

Q. — You referred to the use of 
the chains. How many times did 
you see the chains used? 

A. — I believe the records will 
show I chained up as many as any- 
body. I tried to be as conservative 
as possible with that. When I let 
a man down I would let him go, and 
when he went out I would say noth- 
ing about it. I don't believe in all 
this growling and hurrah. 

Q. — What was the average length 
of time a man was kept in chains? 

A. — I have kept them up for 
thirty minutes to maybe three hours. 
They were loose in the chains and 
they did not suffer much with it. I 
had to punish some hard, but tried 
to be just in it and not overdo the 
thing. 

Q. — Is it my understanding that 
you declined to appear before Judge 
Campbell? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — If you believed the Commis- 
sion should not have let you out, 
why did you decline to go before the 
special representative? 

A. — I was already let out, and I 
did not have any idea of going be- 
fore anybody. I knew it would not 
help matters any, and another thing 
I did not feel like going amongst 
them. Just felt like I did not have 
much business around there. That's 
all. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — I believe you said there were 
about 700 convicts and seventy-five) 
guards. Could not that number of 
guards be reduced materially? 

A. — There have been some worked 
there I would not have worked. I 
will give you one instance; when I 
first went there, there was an old 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



259 



man there by the name of Billy 
Cleveland. He went away and came 
to Houston and then came back, and 
when he came back there was no 
job open for him. I did not want 
him myself, and finally there was an 
old negro named Texas Slim — he was 
in the blacksmith shop and blew the 
bellows, and Billy Cleveland went 
there and stayed something like a 
month, I think. 

Q. — You mean to say they gave 
this man a job to guard this one 
convict? 

A. — Yes, sir; I took it that way. 
I knew he was no blacksmith, and 
I knew he was doing no good there. 
He had the consumption and was 
transferred from there two or three 
weeks ago. 

Q. — Mr. Brahan spoke about you 
not bringing this matter before the 
Commission. What effort did you 
make to get a statement of these 
facts before the Commission? 

A. — After I got wind about being 
discharged, I asked Mills about it. 
He said he had written them to re- 
move me, and he said they may give 
me a better job. I came to Houston 
and went to the Bristol Hotel and 
called up Mr. Cabell, and asked him 
to give me a hearing before they dis- 
charged me, and he said he would, 
and I went to Huntsville and stayed 
there a day or two, and this little 
slim fellow Wolfe handed me my 
walking papers; so I immediately 
walked. I don't know anything 
about the hearing only the way I 
was let out of the job. 



THURSDAY, MAY 22, 1913, AT 
HARLEM STATE FARM. 

Testimony by Captain T. C. Blakely: 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Will you please give the clerk 
your name in full? 

A.— T. C. Blakely. 

Q. — What position do you hold in 
reference to the penitentiajry sys- 
tem? 

A. — Manager Harlem State farm. 

Q. — How many acres does that in- 
clude? 

A. — Sixty-four hundred. 

Q. — How much of that is in culti- 
vation? 

A. — Practically all of it. Between 
three or four hundred acres in pas- 
tures; about four hundred and thirty 
acres, I think. 



Q. — From whom did you receive 
your appointment? 

A. — The Penitentiary Commission. 

Q. — How long have you been man- 
ager? ( 

A. — Six years in February. 

Q. — You served under a previous 
administration? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many acres of cane did 
you operate on the Harlem place? 

A. — Thirteen hundred fifty-eight 
and three-tenths acres of cane. 

Q. — Has your acreage been in^ 
creased or reduced? 

A. — Reduced. 

Q. — Please state to the Commit- 
tee why? 

A. — It was because the lands had 
been in cane a number of years, and 
it was Mr. Brahan's idea, as he was 
farm commissioner, to rotate that 
land; planting it in corn and pea 
vines. 

Q. — Do you handle the farm un- 
der the direction of the Commission? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Mr. Brahan? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you find it to be as prof- 
itable as other crops? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you find cane to be as 
profitable as cotton? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is this land in this territory 
good cotton land? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is it generally so? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do private individuals raise 
cotton at a profit? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many convicts does it 
require to operate the number of 
acres on the Harlem farm you now 
operate? 

A. — About five or six hundred. 

Q. — How many are actively work- 
ing? 

A. — Camp No. 1 has seventy-nine 
first class men. 

Q. — You mean by first class men 
those who are actively working? 

A. — Those that are physically first 
class. No. 2 has ninety-four men; 
No. 3 has thirty-four third grade 
men, and there are forty-eight men 
on this No. 1 camp we consider 
worthless. 

Q. — You mean the men who are 
unable to work, you keep them at 



260 



Report and Findings of 



headquarters of the farm, or do you 
distribute them through the camps? 

A. — As much as we can, we keep 
them there. 

Q. — How do you operate these 
subdivisions, or camps? 

A. — Under the direction of an as- 
sistant at each camp. 

Q. — What is their title? 

A. — Assistant. 

Q. — Of course, it is necessary to 
have a certain number of them 
cooking, etc. How do you designate 
these convicts who are not actively 
working; as indispensables, or oth- 
erwise? 

A. — We use as much as possible 
around our camp men who are not 
able to go to the fields. Of course, 
there are some cooks, blacksmiths, 
lot men, etc., that have got to be 
good men. 

Q. — But there are a certain num- 
ber of non-productive men on this 
camp? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — About how many non-product- 
ives? 

A. — Forty-eight. 

Q. — Are any of these at the other 
camps? 

A. — Yes, sir; a few. 

Q. — Just as a rough estimate, how 
many non-productives have you on 
the Harlem farm? 

A. — About sixty or seventy-five. 

Q. — Men who practically do no 
work? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — These men who are not work- 
ing, do they come under the 10-cent 
per diem system? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is there any dissatisfaction 
among the men in regard to the 10- 
cent per diem system? 

A. — Yes, sir; they have not got 
it. 

Q. — Is there any dissatisfaction as 
to the proportionate amount due 
them? Do the productives think 
they ought to get more or less? 

A.— Yes, sir. 

Q. — You have been handling con- 
victs for six years? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Will you tell the Committee 
if you think the 10-cent per diem is 
a good thing for the State's interest? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Does it encourage the men to 
do more work? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many acres of land will 



a convict now cultivate on the av- 
erage under the present law? 

A. — It depends entirely on the 
convicts. Taking the cane, as a 
whole, about twelve acres. 

Q. — How many before the present 
law went into effect? 

A. — Twenty acres to the man. 

Q. — Would that overwork the con- 
vict? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You have operated this farm 
under both systems? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think, Mr. Blakely, 
that you can get as much work out 
of convicts now without overworking 
them under the present law as you 
could under the old law? 

A. — Some will work just as much; 
others will not. We have, I sup- 
pose, on this farm, 100 men who 
go out and do a first class day's work 
if we want them to do it. However, 
at times, they do not do a first class 
day's work. Out of 500 men we 
have 100 men who will go out every 
day and do a first class day's work 
whether you want them to or not. 

Q. — Do you find any difficulty in 
forcing the worst class of convicts 
to put up a reasonable day's work? 

A. — Yes, sir; they won't do it. 

Q. — Give the reason why? 

A. — They will not put up a rea- 
sonable day's work. 

Q. — Is the reason to be attributed 
to the fact you have abolished the 
strap? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Prior to the taking effect of 
the present law, did you use the 
strap on this farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — To what extent? 

A. — Very seldom used. About 
once or twice a month. It is not 
the use of the strap that makes 
them work, but the fact that you 
can use it. 

Q. — About what per cent of the 
convicts prior to the enactment of 
this law did you find the strap nec- 
essary to get a reasonable day's 
work out of them? 

A. — About 10 per cent of them; 
a very small per cent, and they were 
generally the same men. 

Q. — The rest work just as well 
without it? 

A. — Yes, sir. They worked as well 
without it as if you had the right 
to use it. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



261 



Q. — It had an effect on 10 per 
cent of the convicts? 

A. — The using of it on the 10 
per cent had a good effect on the 
other 90 per cent. Here I have 
about 100 men who go out and do 
a first class day's work, and do it 
just as well, without a guard. 

Q. — How many hours of actual 
work do you get out of them? 

A. — About seven and three-quar- 
ters or eight hours. 

Q. — How is the balance of the 
time consumed between that num- 
ber of working hours and the ten 
hours limited by law? 

A. — In going back and forwards 
to the field. 

Q. — Under this system, are they 
putting in as much labor per day 
as free labor? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Can convicts under this sys- 
tem put in as much labor as free 
labor? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Does he or can he cultivate 
as much land as free labor? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Now one man cultivates 
twelve acres, where heretofore he 
cultivated about twenty? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is the average amount 
of land cultivated by free labor? 

A. — About twenty. 

Q. — Is free labor overworked any 
in order to cultivate twenty acres? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Are they satisfied with their 
employment? 

A. — Yes, sir. I have never em- 
ployed any myself, but my neighbors 
employ them. 

Q. — Now, you know the prison 
system is pretty badly in the red, 
and we are trying to find out why, 
and are trying to secure information 
so this Committee can recommend 
to the Governor any change of policy 
that will put the prison system on a 
better financial basis, and at the 
same time the convicts be treated on 
a humanitarian basis, and I will say 
at this time the Committee does not 
advocate the use of the bat. 

A. — No, sir; I don't either. I 
think the present law is right about 
that. 

Q. — What would you advise from 
the standpoint of your long expe- 
rience in reference to the use of the 
bat in handling convicts? 

A. — Just exactly as the law is 



now. I mean the law; not the rul- 
ing of the penitentiary system. 

Q. — You think it ought to be per- 
missible? 

A. — Yes, sir; on third grade men. 

Q. — You think it necessary to use 
it on some men? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And that it benefits all the 
men? 

A. — Y< 




land other than the Harlem farm? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you have in charge any 
other land? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Was the year 1912 an av- 
erage year on the farm? 

A. — No, sir. It was droughty. 
The cane crop was very short. 

Q. — Do you consider the cane crop 
last year profitable? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you think the loss on the 
cane crop last year was due to the 
drought or to the system of hand- 
ling cane? 

A. — Due to the drought. 

Q. — You grind all your cane at 
the Harlem sugar mill? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Of what capacity is the mill? 



262 



Eeport and Findings of 



A. — Four hundred and fifty is a 
good day's work. 

Q. — Were you able to run it at 
its full capacity? 

A. — Yes, sir; a short time. 

Q. — As a separate thing, do you 
consider the sugar mill profitable to 
the State? 

A. — Yes, sir; if we continue rais- 
ing sugar cane. We have only op- 
erated this mill thirty or forty days. 
It Mm^MY" *T n T «ivtv to Plghtv 




Commissioners make these contracts. 
Mr. Brahan said he paid $1 per day 
for this engine. 

Mr. Brahan states: We pay $1 
per day for it all during the year 
except at harvest time, and then we 
pay $7 per day during the grinding 
season. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
Brahan: 

q. — i will ask you, Mr. Brahan, 
the terms on which we lease this 
engine from the Southern Pacific? 

A. — I made arrangements last 
year with the Southern Pacific to 
lease two engines from them. I paid 
them $7.50 per day during the grind- 
ing season. That is when we have 
to have an engine here for switch- 
ing and we did not have one of our 
own, and the year before Mr. Blake- 



ly told me the service from Sugar 
Land was not satisfactory, and I 
made arrangements to get this en- 
gine for $7.50 per day, and as soon 
as the grinding season was over, I 
would pay them $1 per day for the 
use of this engine, and this engine 
is run with the same crew that runs 
the light, water pumps, etc. 

Senator Willacy resumes interro- 
gation of Captain Blakely: 

Q. — Tell the Committee about 
what is the total cost of operating 
this locomotive per annum to the 
' tate? 

A. — I think we can operate this 
ngine for $3 per day. 

Q. — How does that compare to 
paying freight over the other line 
of railroad? 

A. — I don't know. I can't say. I 
don't pay any freight over this rail- 
road. 

By Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — We would have to have an 
engine to get freight from the Sugar 
Land Railroad?- 

A. — Yes, sir; or pull it with mules. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Do you consider it a good in- 
vestment to have this engine? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I notice your sales of cane for 
1912 here given in the audit by Mr. 
Huey, $40,511.96. How do you ar- 
rive at that? Do you credit the 
State so much per ton for cane de- 
livered at the sugar mill? 

A. — Yes, sir. We keep track of 
the cane; weigh it all, and charge 
it to the mill. 

Q. — Do you use any mills other 
than the State's? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many acres of cotton 
have you on this farm? 

A. — Something over 2500. 

Q. — How many acres on the Im- 
perial? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — You are not operating that? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you your own gins? 

A. — No, sir; we are putting up a 
gin house on the Harlem farm. 

Q. — Where do you gin your col 
ton? 

A. — At the Imperial, and some at 
Richmond. 

Q. — How did the cotton turn out 
on the State farms according to pri- 
vate farms? 

A. — Just as good, or about the 
same. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



263 



Q. — Have you anything to do with 
the sale of the cotton? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q.— It is sold by the Commis- 
sioner? 

A. — Yes, sir. I don't have a ay- 
thing to do either with the buying, 
unless it is some small trifle. 

Q. — What system have you in re- 
ceiving supplies for the Harlem 
farm? 

A. — We make requisition on the 
Penitentiary Commission. 

Q. — They do the buying? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And they send you according 
to your requirements? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — When you order, do you state 
both the quality and quantity you 
want, as well as the grade? 

A. — Just the quantity. 

Q. — Are you advised by the Com- 
missioners what grade is purchased? 

A. — No, sir; they do not state the 
grade. We get a bill for it, and 
some bills show on the face of it 
what it is. 

Q. — Have you any way of check- 
ing up the quantity received so it 
will compare with the quantity ship- 
ped? 

A. — Yes, sir: we get a duplicate 
bill. 

Q. — Is there no way of checking 
the grade? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
grades; meats, bacon, flour, etc.? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In your opinion, what c«ass of 
supplies does the State send to the 
Harlem farm? 

A. — Everything is first class except 
the flour. 

Q. — Is there at times any bacon 
or other supplies of inferior quality 
sent down? 

A. — Yes, sir; we have had them. 

Q. — Was any notation made of 
that? 

A. — We notified the Commission- 
ers, and they made the packing 
house take it back. 

Q. — Do you sometimes exchange 
with the Imperial commissary? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — When you are out, do you 
borrow from them? 

A. — I have done that. 

Q. — Recently? 

A. — No, sir. 



Q. — Have you at any time got out 
of bacon and have them loan you 
bacon until yours got in? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — Do you know of any time last 
year that you borrowed bacon from 
them? 

A. — I don't know. We borrow 
from each other all the time. 

Q. — Can you recall any instance 
where yau have ever borrowed any 
meats from Mr. Eldridge? 

A. — Not that I know of. 

Q.— In 1911? 

A. — Not that I know of. 

Q. — You would have charge of 
that? 

A. — I would, if it was borrowed. 

Q. — The reason I am asking the 
question, the Lieutenant Governor 
and I were talking to the commis- 
sary man at Sugar Land, the man- 
ager, and he informed us the State 
had borrowed from them a certain 
amount of bacon in 1911, and when 
the State undertook to repay the 
bacon, that it was a very inferior 
grade, and they refused to accept it. 

A. — We received a carload of stag 
meat here about that time, and we 
turned it down, and we re-checked 
it and shipped it away. 

Q. — You don't know that it was 
ordered as stag? 

A. — No, sir; ordered as first class 
bacon. I took it up with the Peni- 
tentiary Commission, and they said 
they ordered first class meat, and if 
it was not first class to send it back 
to them, and they sent their repre- 
sentative down here. 

Q. — And what was done with it? 

A. — It was shipped back. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — How many cars were there 
of this stag meat? 

A. — About 10,000 pounds. 

Q. — Was that the only stag meat 
you received? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever return to Mr. 
Eldridge the bacon? 

A. — I have no recollection of ever 
borrowing any bacon from him. 

Q. — Here is a statement by Mr. 
Eldridge stating that the bacon was 
so inferior that they demanded from 
you, and obtained from you, 3 to 5 
cents per pound difference for the 
bacon. 

A. — I never had any such trans- 
action with him, and I know Mr. 
Ulliick, and if I had had any such 



264 



Report and Findings of 



transaction with him I would have 
remembered it. 

Q. — You have some one who re- 
ceived all the supplies, and who has 
charge of all of them? 

A. — Yes, sir; we have a steward 
here who receives and checks them, 
and if there is anything wrong, he 
reports to my office. 

Q. — Who employs that steward? 

A. — I do. 

Q. — You have three camps on this 
farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — "-Do you have someone at each 
camp to receive goods and keep 
check on them? 

A. — They are all issued from this 
commissary. 

Q. — Is there any way those goods 
could be diverted? 

A. — I don't think so. 

Q. — It is sent to the several camps 
by convicts? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever hear of any of 
the convicts giving the supplies 
away? 

A. — No, sir. We had at No. 2 
camp some supplies that were stolen ; 
last year, but we recovered all of 
that. 

Q. — Are you prepared to state to 
the Committee about the total 
amount of supplies received for one 
year? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — In checking up the supplies, 
are you careful to have a competent 
man receive them? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Does he have the invoice at 
hand so as to see if the quantity is 
right? 

A. — Yes, sir; but the invoice does 
not always state the quality that is 
ordered. 

Q. — Have you had any gambling 
on the farm since you have been 
here? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — None of that going on now? 

A. — Not that I know of. It is 
probably going on among the con- 
victs. 

Q. — To what extent? 

A. — It is impossible to keep it all 
down. You know how hard it would 
be to keep 250 negroes from shoot- 
ing craps. 

Q. — Where do they get the money? 

A. — Some overtime; people send 
them money, and that way. 



Q. — Do you know of any money 
transactions that have taken place 
between the guards or officers and 
the convicts? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you know of any instance 
where a convict has been indebted to 
any guard or officer? 

A. — Yes, sir; they borrow a quar- 
ter, or four bits, or a dollar, borrow 
it from the guards. 

Q. — Does that amount up to any 
considerable sum? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is there any interest charged? 

A. — No, sir; not a cent. 

Q. — Do you know of any instance 
where a guard or officer takes a 
convict's note for an amount greater 
than was loaned him? 

A. — No, sir; not in the last few 
years. I have heard of instances of 
that kind several years ago, not in 
this camp, however, and I reported 
it to the superintendent just as soon 
as I heard it. 

Q. — How many guards have you 
on this place? 

A. — Forty some odd. 

Q. — Are there any old guards here 
now; that is, here before the new 
law went into effect? 

A. — Some of them. 

Q. — How about the personality of 
the guards as compared with those 
under the old system? 

A. — I think we have a better class 
of men. 

Q. — Is there any drunkenness 
among the guards? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You would not permit that on 
the place at all? 

A. — I will discharge any man that 
brings whisky on this place. I 
adopted this rule when I first came 
here. 

Q. — Have you had any trouble in 
the past along that line? 

A. — I have had some, and have 
never recommended one being re- 
instated, and never will. 

Q. — Do you know of any cases 
where liquor of any kind has been 
smuggled in to the guards or con- 
victs? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is any of that going on now? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think so. 

Q. — In appointing the officers and 
guards, do you appoint them or the 
Commissioners? 

A. — I appoint them. That is, I 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee 



265 



submit their names to the Commis- 
sioners. 

Q. — Do they act on your sugges- 
tions? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you adopt any rule as to 
politics, or do you appoint them as 
to merit? 

A. — Purely on merit. 
Q. — In other words, when you em- 
ploy a man on this farm, do you 
look as to the merits or the politics 
of the men? 

A. — Merits absolutely. 
Q. — How far is the Harlem farm 
from the Brazos river? 

A. — No. 1 camp is about five 
miles. 

Q. — Are the banks of the Brazos 
higher or lower than the farm? 
A. — Lower. 

Q. — It would be difficult to bring 
water here from the Brazos? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How could the farm be irri- 
gated? 

A. — From this creek; Oyster creek. 
Q. — Oyster creek? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How far is the Harlem land 
from the intake on the Brazos of the 
Cane & Rice Belt Irrigation Co.? 

A. — We get out water from the 
second levy. Three years ago, I 
think it was, this creek was dry. 
We got out water for the sugar 
house from this creek. They have 
a dam about six miles above here, 
and we got permission to get water 
from that dam, and we cut that dam. 
We could not get it out any other 
way, and I agreed to rebuild it, and 
when I did they had two 30-inch 
pipes there, and for fear I might 
again need it in the future, I put 
the pipe in that dam, and that is 
the way we get out water from 
there; open the floodgates and let 
the water come down the creek. 

Q. — Can you tell if a dam could 
be made without any extraordinary 
expense? 

A. — No, sir; I can not. We had 
engineer's to make a survey of that, 
and it was decided by the Commis- 
sioners it would be too expensive to 
do that. We would have had to 
move 42,000 yards of dirt, and that 
would have been too expensive. 

Q. — What effect would irrigation 
have on the cane crop? 

A. — I think with a little fertilizer 
and water we could double the yield. 



Q. — What is the average? 
A. — About fifteen tons. 
Q. — Do you consider that a pay- 
ing proposition? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think it would pay 

the State to irrigate on fifteen tons? 

A. — The average yield on this 

place, I don't suppose, would be 

over nine or ten tons. 

Q. — Do you know if growing cane 
has been profitable to private in- 
dividuals? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think so. 
Q. — Has it not been a loss to a 
great many of them? 

A. — They are all broke in this 
county without exception. 

Q. — And are all anxious to get 
out of the business? 

A. — I know they are all broke. 
Q. — Now, these private parties 
who have been raising sugar 
cane and have gone broke, are they 
pretty generally willing to unload 
their cane farms on the State? 

A. — I don't know, but I suppose 
they would be. 

Q. — None refused to sell their cane 
farms to the State? 
A. — I don't know. 
Q. — If it is unprofitable to private 
who have been raising sugar 
it would be profitable to the State 
under our present law? 

A. — When we operate a mill; 
taking off the cane crop, we have 
got to work all the hours we can, 
and of course, if we have to pay 
20 to 30 cents overtime it makes it 
j right expensive. We work about 100 
men in the sugar house, and it forces 
us to work each one of these men 
twelve hours, and that is $20 per 
day overtime. 

Q. — You think it could not be 
made profitable under the present 
system? 

A. — I think so on a small basis; 
about what we have got now; about 
1000 or 1200 acres so as to keep our 
men busy. 

Q. — Have you ever figured up 
what it costs the State per annum 
for each convict, including his 50 
cents charge, maintenance, supplies, 
etc., and how that compares with 
free labor? 

A. — I don't know. 
Q. — I notice in the audit of 1912 
the pay roll is $27,318. Does that 
include all the officers and guards? 
A. — Yes, sir. 



266 



Report and Findings ov 



q. — The 10-cent per diem does 
not enter into that? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — Now there is an item of crop 
expense, $17,291.04. What does 
that include? 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — Do you sometimes have to 
employ outside lahor? 

A. — No, sir: your books would 
show that expense. 

Mr. Tittle states: That would in- 
clude machinery and tools, corn, 
seeds, etc. 

Senator Willacy resumes interro- 
gation of Captain Blakely: 

Q. — Where is this account kept? 

A. — At Huntsville. All the books 
we have here is a camp record and 
commissary books. 

q — i notice the maintenance sup- 
plies, s:,2,262.68, and convict labor, 
ins per day, $45,659. Now, 
this does not include the clothing, 
etc. Now, that would indicate that 
the maintenance supplies would cost 
something like 60 cents per day. 
Even that excluded, clothing and 
everything, would make about $1.10 
per day. 

A. — Yes. sir; we pay that to every 
man on this place. 

Q. — Now. Mr. Blakely, when the 
lease system was abolished, did you 
have places where the convicts re- 
leased from the lease contract could 
be employed? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You had extra convicts on the 
farm that you had no work for? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Could you have gradually, so 
far as your jurisdiction was con- 
cerned, provided employment for 
these convicts? 

A. — I could by buying or leasing 
more lands. 

Q. — How does the average convict, 
as to farming efficiency, compare 
with the convicts of the past several 
years? 

A. — They are not as good men. 

Q. — Can you account for that? 

A. — No, sir, I can not; but the 
force we have now is nothing like 
the force when I first came here. 

Q. — So far as physical ability is 
concerned, how do they compare? 

A. — We get more town negroes 
who do not know how to hoe, plow 
or do anything else. 

Q. — Does that enter into any par- 
ticular degree in the cost of oper- 
ating the farm? 



A. — Yes, sir; field negroes are 
worth two town negroes. 

Q. — That change has been very 
gradual? 

A. — Yes, sir; but it is getting 
worse every year. 

Q. — Is there much difference in 
the past two years? 

A. — Our labor is not as good as 
two years ago, and it is not as good 
this year as last year. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — You have here about 500 men 
on the farm today. Is that too many 
men to operate this farm, or about 
the right number? 

A. — It is about the right number, 
considering the class of men, and 
under the present system of working 
them. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Does that 50 cents per day 
cover nil the time on the farms? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — When does it begin? 

A. — When they are checked out at 
TTuntsville. 

Q. — About what would be the 
amount of time lost by the convicts 
due to wet weather, etc.? 

A. — I don't know. I have kept 
them in the building seventeen days 
at one time without turning them 
out. 

Q. — And each one of those days 
there was a charge of 50 cents per 
man? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
lands in this immediate neighbor- 
hood? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
lands on which the penitentiary sys- 
tem holds options? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know the figures on 
which these options are secured? 

A. — Some of them; not all of 
them. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
Trammell farm? 

A. — No, sir; but I have been on 
it. Spent a couple of days on it. 

Q. — Could you tell the Committee 
what you consider a reasonable value 
on the Trammell farm? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you know at what price 
the option of the farm is to the 
State? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Could you tell the Committee 
if any advanced price is put on op- 






Penitentiary Investigating Committee 



267 



tions to the State due to the fact 
they expect to sell them on credit? 
A. — I could not. 

Q. — Could you tell the Committee 
if any advanced price is made to the 
State on any account? 
A. — I don't know. 
q. — i will state this, Mr. Chair- 
man; the reason I am asking this 
particular question. I have had a 
conversation with Mr. Trammell, and 
he was very anxious to know wheth- 
er or not the State was going to 
purchase his land, and I told him 
we could not give him an answer as 
to that, and he said he had another 
party negotiating for the land, and 
he said he would like to know, as 
he wanted to make the sale. I 
asked him what he thought he would J 
receive from the party, and he said 
$400,000. I asked him what he was 
to receive from the State, and he said 
$440,000. I then asked him to state 
why he wanted more from the State 
than from the other party, and he 
said it was due to the fact that the 
State would huy it on credit. 

Mr. Brahan states: There were 
a good many of these people from 
whom we took an option for five 
years, and they put the option higher 
than they would take for the land 
at that time. They said it was not 
fair to put a value on their land five 
years from now. Now, take Mr. 
Ransome — 

Q. — Now, what I want to bring 
before the Committee is that no op- 
tion should be entered into by the 
State at a greater price than to in- 
dividuals, and if conditions pertain- 
ing to the Trammell option are due 
to the fact that it will cost the State 
$40,000 more than to individuals, 
then the State should certainly be 
in position to pay cash for it. 

Mr. Brahan states: I think Mr. 
Bassett Blakely would like to have 
the State release him on the Tur- 
ner place, and also the Jackson place. 
I think the day he took over the 
Jackson place he would have sold it 
to us at $33. 

Q. — Do you know anything of the 
purchase of the Imperial land from 
the Imperial Sugar Co.? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You are not familiar with that 
transaction? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
any contract on the part of the State 



to keep any amount of the acreage 
in cane? 

A. — Only from hearsay. None 
from my own knowledge. 

Q. — Is it in your judgment that 
the lands the State has purchased 
from the several parties were pur- 
chased at the right prices? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think it was all 
purchased at a big bargain. 

Q. — Do you know if any parties 
were interested in the State other 
than the vendor? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
Ransome place? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have worked it. 

Q. — How much is in cultivation? 

A. — Practically all of it; sixty or 
seventy acres not in cultivation. 

Q. — Do you consider it good land? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How about the price fixed in 
the option? 

A. — I think it is very cheap. 

Q. — Do you know Mr. Ransome? 

A. — Yes, sir; related to each 
other. We married sisters. 

Q. — From your conversation with 
j Mr. Ransome, is he inclined to close 
I up the option with the State under 
the contract? 

A. — He would like for the State 

not to take it. I think he would 

j give the State $10,000 not to take it. 

Q. — I have always heard he was 
a man who always kept his word? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — He has nothing to do with 
the operation of the land? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Now, the State has put cer- 
tain improvements on that land? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What are they? 

A. — Convict buildings. 

Q. — Anything else? 

A. — Convict building and kitchen. 

Q. — Cleared any land? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What are the cost of those 
improvements? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — Are they movable improve- 
ments? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Those were put on in antici- 
pation of the purchase of this land? 

A. — They were put on with an 
agreement with Mr. Ransome. I 
Prst went to see him about it, and 
then he came here to my house to 
talk to the Commissioners about it, 
and he made them two propositions. 



268 



Report and Findings of 



He was to let the crop pay for the im- 
provements on it; he pay one-fourth 
and they pay three-fourths, or they 
could put up the building at their 
own expense and at the termination 
of the lease he would take the im- 
provements at 50 cents on the dol- 
lar. 

Q. — Mr. Ransome's farm imme- 
diately adjoins the Harlem farm? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — It is closer to the headquar- 
ters of the Harlem farm than some 
parts of the present Harlem farm? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — It is a piece of land that can 
be operated without more expense 
from these headquarters? 

A. — Yes, sir; it is a very desirable 
piece of land. 

Q. — What improvements have been 
put on the Harlem farm since the 
operation of the present law? 

A. — We have built what we call 
No. 3 camp, and we have built a 
dairy barn. 

Q.— Were considerable of the im- 
provements authorized by the Com- 
missioners? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Were they built, Mr. Blakely, 
at a time when they had no money? 
A. — Yes, sir; under the operation 
of the present law. 

Q. — Now, when convicts are dis- 
charged, and there is money due the 
convicts, what system is there of 
sending this money to the convicts? 
Do they get that money direct from 
the system at Huntsville, or is it 
sent here? 

A. — It is handled through check 
or draft on the Commissioners. The 
bank receives a draft and pays the 
convict off. I draw on the peniten- 
tiary system through J. P. Davidson 
& Co., bankers, at Richmond. 

Q. — And the convict gets his 
money through the bank? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know of any instance, 
Mr. Blakely, through any dealings 
with any of the guards or officers, 
through some obligations the con- 
victs may have made, that any part 
of this money does not really go to 
the convict, or he is some way ne- 
gotiated out of it? 

A. — It is very likely they do with 
each other, but not with the citizens. 
Q. — Do they traffic with the 
guards or officers? 

A. — No; I don't permit that. 



Q. — Do you know of any instances 
where convicts sell their claims 
against the State? 

A. — Yes, sir; they sell to each 
other. 

Q. Do they sell to any citizen or 
officer or guard? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What is their reason for do- 
ing that? 

A. — They want the money or any 
part of it. 

Q. — Is it largely due to the fact 
that they are led to believe the 
State may not pay them at all? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think it is 
that. They want the money right 
now. 

Q. — But that is limited to the con- 
victs themselves? 

A. — Yes, sir; absolutely. 

Q. — How many men have you to 
the guard? 

A. — I suppose it would average 
fifteen. 

Q. Are you familiar with the Mis- 
Sippi system? 

A. — Yes, sir; at least I have got 
the penitentiary rules and laws gov- 
erning the penitentiary system and 
read them. 

Q. — Have you ever thought any- 
thing about that? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes. 

Q. — You said you had 100 men 
who could be worked without 
guards? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. Have you men without guards 
here? 

A. — Yes, sir. Out of 250 men, we 
have only six squads here who are 
carried out under the shot gun; 
about 12 to 15 men to the guard. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy. 

Q. How does the provisions and 
clothing under the present law com- 
pare with the old law? 

A. — I think we get a better class 
of provisions and clothing. 

Q. — How about their quarters? 

A. — Much better. 
Q. — Will you state to the Commit- 
tee the several differences, if any, 
that arose between that part of the 
operation of the State penitentiary 
system under your direction, and the 
railroad owned by Mr. Eldridge, and 
that you thought it to the best in- 
terest of the State that the State put 
in a railroad of its own? 

A. — We were shipping our freight 
all billed to Imperial. I think that 
was an imaginary station on the 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



269 



Sugarland Railroad, but it was billed 
Imperial, and they would bring our 
freight down here and deliver it to 
the freight shed for us. I ran along 
that way for a couple of years. The 
agreement between Mr. Eldridge and 
myself was they were to bring our 
freight here without cost to us; he 
came over to see me in October, 
1907, or 1908, and at the end of 
the year he sent us a bill for $1,- 
800.00 straight. I sent the bill back 
to the superintendent then and said 
we did not owe it. The financial 
agent came to Sugarland, and he 
asked me about this bill of $1,800, 
and he asked me to go with him to 
Mr. Eldridge's office, and we went 
in there and I told Mr. Eldridge the 
agreement we had, and he laughed 
and said if we had that agreement 
that it was all right and that he 
would tear up the bill. Then after 
the Commissioners came in he be- 
gan to operate the road just as we 
needed it and it finally got so we 
could not get freight at all from 
there. Sometimes I would go there 
in wagons and get it and take it out 
of the warehouse, and then they 
stopped operating that road only to 
the end of the track over there (in- 
dicates by motion of hand to where 
they stopped operating — about 400 
yards from office). Of course, gro- 
ceries and stuff like that we could 
haul in wagons, but it was expensive 
to stop a wagon out of the field and 
go down there to get groceries, and 
then I asked the penitentiary Com- 
mission to get the ties and let me 
build the railroad. 

Q. Did they already have the 
rails? 

A. — Yes, sir; we had the rails, but 
the ties had rotted out. They had 
the ties at the Ramsey farm, and 
shipped them here, and I rebuilt it. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes. 

Q. You regard this farm as hav- 
ing made or lost money in 1912? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — The farm is charged here with 
maintenance and supplies, $52,- 
256.68. It is also charged with con- 
vict labor of $45,679. Is that 50 
cents per day per man? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Then the loss, $12,531.96, in 
the operation account is caused by 
the fact that you were charged with 
both the maintenance of the con- 
victs, and also the convict labor of 
50 cents per day, and instead of 
showing a loss on your farm opera- 



tions here last year, it should have 
shown a profit of about $33,000. Is 
it fair to the farming operations of 
the system to charge them with both 
the maintenance of the men and also 
charge them with the convict labor 
of 50 cents per day? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think it is 
fair and we are charged with the 
50 cents per day for men who have 
never left the yard, and we are 
charged just the same as for the 
best men on this place. 

Q. — Whether he is working or 
idle? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now here is a list 
(produces list of men) I want to 
show you. Now here is 33 men. 
Those men do very little labor. Now 
here is 40 men I ought to receive pay 
for taking care of them. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy. 

Q. — You take this maintenance 
and supplies charge $52,262.68, and 
clothing, $14,809.48; are you fa- 
miliar with the prices you pay for 
these supplies? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How do they compare with the 
prices same character of supplies 
that can be bought at elsewhere? 

A. — 2 5 to 50 per cent more than 
you could buy the same stuff for 
on the open market. 

Q. — Same character of goods? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know whether or not 
they charge you with the same prices 
the State pays for the goods? 

A. — I don't know. I know I can 
buy them in the open market cheap- 
er. Well, now, the provisions are 
not. 

Q. — That is for the tailor shop and 
shoe shop? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — You show this bill from the 
shoe shop; Brogan Shoes, $1.85 per 
pair. What are they worth in the 
open market? 

A. — $1.10 to $1.15 in the open 
market. 

Q. — Same grade shoes? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You show here 75 guard 
sheets, 45 cents. What kind ol 
sheets are those? 

A. — Just a single sheet. 

Q. — Duck? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What weight? 

A. — 6 ounce. 



270 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — How long are those sheets? 

A. — About two yards. 

Q. — What would those sheets be 
worth? 

A. — About 15 cents. 

Q. — You are charged 45 cents for 
them. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now you have "75 guards pil- 
lows, stuffed pillows, 30 cents?" 

A. — I don't know the value of 
that. (Pillow is brought and es 
hibited to members of the Commit 
tee.) 

Mr. Tittle states: It costs three 
cents per pound. (Pillow is weighed 
and it is found to weight two 
pounds.) 

Q. — Take the slips. (Exhibits 
pillow slips.) Is that a sample of 
slips? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — They charge you 12 cents for 
that. What can it be bought for? 

A. — I don't know. 

Mr. Brahan states: I will state 
the physician and visitors and the 
Commissioners have all condemned 
this kitchen but it has been a ques- 
tion of getting money to put up a 
good one. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
Brahan. 

Q. — How many men did you aver- 
age on the Imperial farm last year? 

A. — About 500, but they were all 
kinds of men. I think Mr. Addison 
has been worse mistreated in regard 
to the men than any other man in 
the penitentiary system. He has 
had all kinds of men; Mexicans, ne- 
groes and white men. 

Captain Blakely states: I think 
myself he has had the ragged bunch 
of men. 

Mr. R. B. Humphrey interrogates 
Captain Blakely. 

Q. — You were asked a minute ago 
about the use of convicts as guards. 
Will ask you if you have ever ex- 
perimented along that line? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have been experi- 
menting since the first of the year. 
My conclusion is if we use convicts 
as guards over other convicts thev 
would be worse than savages, and 
they would be ten times more brutal 
than the guards we have now. 

Q. — To what extent have you ex- 
perimented with them? 

A. — Two or three squads out. 

Q. — A negro as a guard or fore- 
man? 

A. — Not guards exactly; they were 
with men who did not need a guard, 



but I have had a negro in charge of 
them. 

Q. — How long have you lived in 
this county? 

A. — All my life. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
Brahan. 

Q. — How many convicts did the 
Bassett Blakely farm average last 
year? 

A. — One hundred and seventy-five. 

Mr. R. B. Humphrey resumes in- 
terrogation of Captain Blakely. 

Q. — Have you ever held any public 
office? 

A. — Yes, sir; I was clerk of the 
District Court of this county. 

Q. — Any other? 

A. — I was sheriff of this county. 

Q. — Aside from your public serv- 
ice have you been farming? 

A. — Born and raised on a farm. 
Been there all my life. 

Q. — With the exception of those 
two terms of public service you have 
devoted your time to farming? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is your age? 

A. — Forty-one years old. 

Q. — What about the drainage con- 
ditions on this farm? 

A. — They are all right. 

Q. — Surface drainage? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Has there been any attempt 
at tile drainage? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — In your judgment, would it 
be best to attempt tile drainage? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think the peniten- 
tiary needs a good brick factory and 
tile factory on this farm. 

Q. — In your judgment, tile drain- 
age on the farms would increase the 
production? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Also would it not bring under 
the plow considerable acreage which 
at this time could not be cultivated 
on account of bad drainage? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you figured on the prob- 
able cost of tile drainage? 

A. — No, sir; I have not figured on 
the drainage, but have figured on the 
cost of a brick and tile factory com- 
bined. 

Q. — The dirt is on the state lands 
in abundance? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And you could use the prison 
labor to make the brick? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Could it be utilized at times 
when not otherwise particularly en- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



271 



gaged? 

A. — Yes sir; and we could use a 
class of labor not profitable as farm 
hands. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q- — Have you ever tried to work 
out any system of rewards by which 
you could get better work out of 
your men? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What would you recommend? 

A. — I have tried several things.. 
Governor. I have tried with my No. 
1 plow squad. That is considered 
the best job on the farm. A No. 1 
plowman is considered a little bit 
better than any other convict. They 
have no guard over them at all. 
Now if one should die, or be dis- 
charged, or get a pardon, I draw 
from No. 2 and there are no plow 
squads under shot guns. The No. 
1 plow squad has first choice over 
the mules. 

(At this time Mr. Blakely is call- 
ed to the 'phone.) 

Senator Willacy makes the fol- 
lowing statement to the Committee: 

Based on $1.00 per day for free 
labor, and even allowing free labor 
is worked every day except Sundays, 
and even Christmas day; they work 
313 days in the year, and it would 
cost $313 per annum for free labor. 
The cost per annum per man on the 
Harlem farm operated by the State 
is $346.26. The cost on the Tram- 
mell farm, operated on the shares, 
cost the State $513 per convict. The 
cost on the Bassett Blakely farm, op- 
erated on the shares, was $454.66 
per convict. The cost on the Im- 
perial farm, operated by the State 
was $434.92. I wanted to give these 
figures to show we are operating 
those State farms better than the 
share farms. 

Mr. Brahan makes the following- 
statement: t 

On the first day of January, a year 
ago, I wanted to put the Basset 
Blakely place under the management 
of the Harlem farm. 

I also wanted to put the Imperial 
farm under the same management, so 
as to make it all under one over- 
head management. My associates 
did not agree with me. In their 
judgment they thought it not best; 
they thought it was not right. I 
thought so, but they did not think 
so. I still think it should be done 
where we are so close together. Wt 
have an automobile that belongs to j 
the State. Now, take for instance, 



a man managing all three properties, 
it makes no difference what Captain 
Blakely is doing he can get -in an 
auto and go over to the different 
farms in a very little time, and if 
he was the general manager he 
would jump in and feel just as in- 
terested in one place as another. 
Now that is the reason why I would 
want a general manager. I also 
think an assistant up there ought to 
get more money, and on Camp No. 1 
at the Imperial farm I would pay the 
man more money than on the river. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes to 
Captain Blakely. 

Q. — Finish your statement about 
the system of rewards. 

A. — It is more a line of promise. 
J The No. 1 plow men are without 
guards. I direct them. If we need 
a plow man we call on No. 2 fo* 
it. We get the best they have. We 
ask the guard for the best man he 
has, and so on down the line. 

Q. — Any other system of rewards? 

A. — Only that we pick our trusties, 
etc.; well behaved convicts. 

Q. — Could a money reward be sub- 
stituted for this 10 per cent per 
diem? Would that work out good? 

A. — Well, Governor, I think this 
per diem is a joke? 

Q. — In place of that we could offer 
a financial reward for the prisoners? 

A. — I have no suggestion to make 
in regard to this. In July and Au- 
gust, the men who are well behaved, 
we give Saturday afternoons off. We 
allow them lots of privileges; to go 
fishing; go hunting, and things like 
that. 

Q. — Did you last year allow them 
to pick cotton for others? 

A. — After they had picked cotton 
a couple of weeks, I made a proposi- 
tion to them if they would pick me 
so much cotton by Friday night, or 
as much by Friday night as they 
picked the last week, that I would 
give them Saturday as theirs, and 
I would go out to some of these 
free farmers and get a job and give 
them the money for it. In the mean- 
time I went out in the farming coun- 
try and picked the best cotton field 
I saw and turned them loose on it, 
and they picked some cotton, too. 

Q. — Did that encourage them? 

A. — Yes, sir. Mr. Fldridge made 
a protest to the Governor, and it 
was stopped on me. 

Q. — By whom? 

A. — Mr. Brahan, through the pen- 
itentiary commissioners. 



272 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Could not something like the 
same thing be worked on all the 
farms? 

A. — Yes, sir. I took a bunch of 
men the last year of Campbell's ad- 
ministration — Mr. Herring, came 
down here and they were under 
contract for men, and they could not 
fill the contract, and he came here 
and talked to me about it, and I 
told him if he would let me do it, 
I would let them pick the cotton 
out. He said there were no build- 
ings, and I said I would camp there. 
I picked out fifty men, and I told 
him I would pick this cotton out, and 
would give each man a limit, and 
for him to pay them 25 cents per 
hundred over this limit. I told him 
to bring the money out Monday eve- 
ning so I could pay them off every 
night. We picked cotton there fif- 
teen days and camped out; no guards 
or anything else, and they picked 
more cotton, and averaged 50 pounds 
more than the force on the place, 
and when I weighed up the cotton, 
I would call the roll and pay them 
up each night. 

Q. — Don't you think that is a bet- 
ter plan than the per diem? 

A. — I don't think anything about 
the per diem. The man who gets 
out and does a first class day's work 
gets no more than the man who will 
do nothing. 

Q. — Tell us about your base ball 
team. Why it is you put it on on 
Sunday afternoons; the effect, etc. 

A. — As long as you can keep men 
busy and enjoying themselves and 
they are not studying a lot of mean- 
ness, and don't let the Congressmen 
in the penitentiary — -we have Con- 
gressmen in the penitentiary the 
same as in the State — we allow them 
in the summer time all of Saturday 
afternoon and Sunday. They have 
a good time, and we let them whoop 
and holler and be a nigger. I think 
I know a negro about as well as any 
man on earth. I turn out those that 
behave themselves. A man who has 
been into some mischief, he does not 
go out. 

Q. — And if he shirks his work? 

A. — He does not go out. I do it 
this way: I turn out all the trus- 
ties, and I tell a guard if he wants 
a man out he can turn him out, and 
on Sundays I allow the guards to 
take the men fishing, or pick dew- 
berries, or anything like that and 
I make them look to the guards for 
that, and I don't have any trouble, 



and they take just as much inter- 
est. 

Q. — Do you know how the num- 
ber of escapes compare on this farm 
as with the other farms? 

A. — No, sir. 

Mr. Brahan states: 
He has more escapes on this farm 
than all the other farms. They are 
on the main trunk railroad, and we 
don't have a chance to catch them 
like the other places. The record 
is made up and you have it on file. 

Q. — What about your mixed feed 
plant? 

A. — We have never got it com- 
pleted. We are working on the 
building now. I think it is all right. 

Q. — You have the machinery? 

A. — We have the engine and 
crusher. The rest can be made at 
Huntsville at a small expense. 

Q. Are you going to put up a 
mixed feed like Eldridge is prepar- 
ing? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think it economical? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What advantage to the system 
would it be to put in silos at the 
different farms? 

A. — I think it is very necessary, and 
to have lots of them. I think the 
State should put up silos where they 
can get pasture room; buy 1,000 head, 
or more, of cattle, and put up a cold 
storage. 

Q. — Could all the cane crop that is 
wasted be used? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy. 
Q. — Does that contain any sacchar- 
ine? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes. 

Q. — It would be more than sorghum 
and far more than green corn? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. We can 
fill them from the waste. 

Q. — If you had enough of those silos 
you could feed cattle and horses and 
mules without having to buy the feed? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you figured about how 
many silos it will take for a certain 
number of stock to carry them 
through? 

A. — I think it will take ten on this 
farm to feed the cattle, mules and 
horses, 16 x 30. 

Q. — And ten would accomodate the 
horses, cattle and mules. Would 
stock be in better condition than if 
fed on corn? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



273 



Q. — How about your vegetables and 
the canning business. What was your 
experience with that last year? 

A. — We got started late last year, 
and we put up a canning plant and 
canned plenty 01 stuff for this farm. 

Q. — When did you begin, if last 
year. 

A. — I think it was in June. 

Q. — Did you furnish any of the other 
farms? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How manv acres did you have 
in? 

A.— Fifty. 

Q. — How many men did you work? 

A. — About ten. 

Q. — Were you able to utilize labor 
in the cannery who could not be used 
otherwise ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would it not be possible with 
a small cannery to grow and can here 
all the vegetables, not only used on 
this farm, but on all the other State 
institutions ? 

A. — Yes, sir ; it could be done very 
easily. We have machinery now here 
"that we can put up 5,000 cans per 
day. We need a good big shed 24 x 
40 where we can wash and peel the 
vegetables. We furnished the entire 
system with kraut and pickles. 

Mr. Brahan states : We also shipped 
a lot of raw vegetables. 

Q. — When you ship them kraut and 
pickles do you charge them like they 
do you? 

A. — No, sir ; they won't stand for 
that. Now, in regard to our reports, 
we can't put all the vegetables on 
that we use, and I asked them two or 
three weeks ago to get a sheet where 
we can charge up everj^thing. It is 
not near complete- We use a world 
of stuff not shown. 

Q. — What about the gardener we 
employed last year? 

A. — I think he was the cheapest man 
the State had employed. 

Q. — He was paid $85.00 per month? 

A. — Yes, sir. Mr. Tittle is the man 
responsible for the gardener. He em- 
ployed him with the idea of running 
the canning plant, and he died. 

Q. — There is no question in my mind 
that we should have a gardener here, 
but — 

A. — We have always had trouble 
with the syrup here. We could keep 
the sugar cane syrup until about the 
first of May, and we only figured on 
keeping enough to run us until the 
first of May. We doubled that supply 



and canned 3,500 gallons of it. I sup- 
pose some of you had some for break- 
fast this morning. 

Q. — What does it cost per month to 
feed a guard? 

A. — It costs very little more to 
maintain a guard than a convict. 

Q. — Practically the same thing? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I will state I looked into the 
steward's books on that subject, and 
found that this is the case. Is it not 
prepared better and better served? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I find that it was a little more. 

A. — Yes, sir ; a trifle more. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson. 

Q. — If the prison commission should 
see fit to put in a cotton seed mill 
where would you suggest putting it? 

A. — (No response). 

Q. — Could the power and buildings 
here be utilized? 

A. — We have the power here. 

Q. — What do you think of the ad- 
visability ? 

A. — I think it is all right. 

Q. — What size mill would you rec- 
ommend? 

A. — About thirty or forty ton mill. 

Q. — Can you run anything less than 
a forty ton mill properly? 

A. — About a forty ton mill. 

Q. — Have you any men in stripes on 
the place? 

A.— No, Sir. 

Q. Is it your judgment men in the 
third grade should be kept to them- 
selves entirely? 

A. — That would be very hard to do, 
Mr. TiTiotson, for this reason : a man 
might accidently get in the third grade 
and you would not want to transfer 
that man, and maybe in a little while 
he would work out of it and make 
you a good man. 

Q. — Do you think the present rule 
fair to men to promote discipline 
among them? 

A. — I think they ought to be guarded 
accordingl}-. Maybe you have a good 
man who is working hard for you, and 
a two-bit negro will come along and 
insult him, and he 

Q. — Is not that an exceptional case? 

A. — If you will look over the punish- 
ment report you will find it is usually 
the same man. 

Q. — Well, now, that grade of men, 
they ought to be separated? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you deprive them of any 
privileges? 

A. — All I can. 



274 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — I notice on some of the farms 
some are with the other men. What 
is the effect? 

A. — I should not think it would 
have much effect on convicts. 

Q. — Do you think it will demoralize 
the convicts? 

A. — A negro is a very peculiar thing-. 
He has not the same disposition as 
a white man, and you must have a 
different mode of handling- him. He 
must have absolute confidence in you. 
if you tell a negro you are going- to 
do something for him you must do it, 
and if you don't you can never square 
yourself with this negro again. That 
is the reason the per diem is no good. 
They think the State is cheating them. 

Q. — You stated you had a number of 
men charged up to you who are not 
able to do farm work. Can you sug- 
gest any class of work on the farm 
at which these men might be employ- 
ed? 

A. — We do employ them as much as 
possible. 

Q. — Can you use a good many of 
those in the canning operations? 

A. — We do that. 

Q. — Do you use any in your tiling 
factory ? 

A. — Yes, sir ; I think so. I think 
the brick factory would be one of the 
best propositions the penitentiary 
system could put up. 

Q. — Have you any information as 
to the cost of a tile plant? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — State what you think such a 
plant you have in mind would cost? 

A.— $5,000.00 or $6,000.00. 

Q. — Where would you locate such 
a plant? 

A. — On the creek bank anywhere. 

Q. — Does it make good brick? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now the rough tiling 
on the Eice Hotel is made at Rosen- 
berg out of this soil. 

Q. Do you think there is an active 
demand for all of those products? 

A. — Yes, sir. The State could use 
it for a number of years. I think all 
the old convict buildings ought to be 
replaced with brick buildings. I tried 
to get Mr. Herring to let me make the 
brick for the buildings. 

Q. — Have you any other ideas as to 
the crops that should be grown in ad- 
dition to what is now grown? 

A. — I think Irish potatoes should 
be grown. 

Q. — What is your average yield per 
acre? 

A. — About seventv-five bushels. 



Q. — Do you think you could make 
any money on sweet potatoes? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Could you grow them to a prof- 
it? 

A. — Yes, sir; and that is the only 
vegetable a negro will eat every day 
in the week. You can feed a negro 
cabbage today and tomorrow feed him 
on cabbage, and he will fall off 75 
per cent. They will not eat saur 
kraut at all. 

Q. — As a result of your experience 
in connection with the penitentiary 
system, do you consider the farm the 
only profitable employment for Ne- 
groes and Mexicans? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy. 

Q. — Would they work all right in 
the brick and tile plant? 

A. — Yes, sir. It ought to be operat- 
ed in connection with the farm. At 
idle times you could operate this brick 
and tile plant when you are not work- 
ing them in the fields. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — What about the matter of fuel?" 
Would it not be rather expensive? 

A. — There is plenty of land we can 
get to clean up. There is over 400 
acres of land with wood on it we 
have the privilege of cutting off all 
we want to. That will last us five or 
six years anyhow, and they burn brick 
with oil, and things like that. Of 
course, oil is very high now, but we 
would have to figure on finding an- 
other oil field. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson : 

Q. — Here in the year 1910 — will say 
is the audit of Harlem State farm 
operations on January 1st, 1910, and 
it was inventoried, at $20,000.00. On 
January 20th, 1911, the inventory 
shows it to be $62,282.99. Could you 
state from your recollection what 
caused this difference in the inven- 
tories ? Was it crops unsold ; improve- 
ments added, or what? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — Could you state whether or not 
prior to the present administration 
when the penitentiary system was 
turned over to the present Commis- 
sioners, if all crops on the Harlem 
farm had been marketed? 

A. — I know at the change of the ad- 
ministration we had about 70,000, or 
80,000 gallons of syrup here ; probably 
100.000 gallons. 

Q. — Any corn on hand? 

A.— 20,000 or 30,000 bushels. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



275 



Q. — Then you assume this difference 
of $42,000.00 is represented, in unsold 
products of 1910? 

A. — I think so. 

Q. — In January 1911, what was the 
quality of the live stock on the place? 
Were they a good lot? 

A. — Some good, and some bad. We 
had a few young mules. 

Q. — Was it advisable to purchase 
mules to operate the farm to advant- 
age? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Who made the purchases? 

A. — The penitentiary commissioners. 

Q. — Did you make requisition for a 
certain number of mules to operate 
the farm with? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you stipulate the kind of 
mules? 

A. — Yes, sir ; I discussed it over with 
them. 

Q. — Do you think the penitentiary 
system now has invested in work stock 
more money than is necessary consid- 
ering the fact that they are working 
so little cane? 

A — No, I don't think so. 

Q. — Don't you think a cheaper mule 
would do practically the same work 
as the larger cane mules that have 
been bought? 

A. — Well, we were pretty well sup- 
plied with that class. 

Q. — Have the mules that have been 
bought since January, 1911, been cane 
mules or cotton quality? 

A. — Both kinds. If you buy a car- 
load of cane mule>, ,yuu wui probably 
get some cotton mules in the lot. 

Q. — If you buy cotton mal^s, you 
never get cane mules? 

A. — Never on earth. 

Q. — What is your estimate of the 
value of the mules you have, taking it 
on an average? 

A. — I should think they would be 
worth $225.00 or $230.00 per head. 

Q. — What is the reasonable market 
value today of what is known as the 
cane mules? 

A. — $250.00 to $275.00 per head. 

A. — What would be the reasonable 
market value of cotton mules such as 
would be serviceable for general work 
aside from the cane cultivation? 

A.— Probably $200.00. 

Q. — Now, Mr. Blakely, in your state- 
ments just now I inferred you felt the 
farming side of the penitentiary sys- 
tem was not receiving its share of the 
credit in the accounting system? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think it is. 



Q. — Now, you are charged up with 
inefficient labor. In addition to this, 
you have an investment in live stock, 
work teams, greater than under the 
old law, have you not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — So that your expenses, operating 
expenses, and maintenance of those 
larger mules adds an increased charge 
of expense to this farm which shows 
to disadvantage in the final results as 
figured at Huntsville? 

A. — I think all the mules we have 
here are necessary. I don't think we 
have a surplus by any means, and I 
don't think what we have are what the 
average farmer has. I think we run 
about twenty-five acres to the mule 
and the average farmer about twenty. 
I don't think any farmer will make a 
mistake by having a surplus of mules. 

Q. — I see in the Harlem operations 
for 1912 a charge of $27,674.60, labor 
for clearing land. Was that charged 
up at a uniform rate of 50 cents a 
day? 

A. — I don't know. That was made 
at Huntsville. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the con- 
ditions at the Bassett Blakely farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are they clearing land there? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do they get the use of the land 
they clear free of rent? 

A. — I don't know what the contract 
is in regard to that. 

Q. — I see in 1912 you sold sugar to 
the value of $67,000.00. 

A. — No, sir; $5,000.00. 

Q. — What proportion of that was 
sold to the penitentiary system? 

A. — I don't know. 

By Mr. B. B. Humphrey. 

Q. — Since I was questioning you in 
regard to the brick and the tile plant 
it develops additional information in 
regard to the possibility of vegetable 
growing. Is it not a fact that in a 
soil and climate such as this that it is 
almost necessary to sub-drain and tile 
the land to get satisfactory results in 
growing vegetables ; particularly Irish 
potatoes? , 

A. No, sir ; I don't think it ab- 
solutely necessary, but I think the sub- 
draining would be much better, but not 
absolutely necessarjr. 

Q. — You don't know then, as a mat- 
ter of fact, that in the potato states 
such as Illinois and Ohio, all potatoes 
are grown on tile drained land? 

A. — No, sir. 



276 



Report and Findings of 



By Mr. L. Tillotson. 

Q. — Have you worked white men on 
the farm here? 

A. — A few. 

Q. — Will you state if you think the 
farms in this part of the State are a 
healthful place in which to work white 
men? 

A. — Yes, sir ; I think so. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — What about a penitentiary locat- 
ed in this section? Would it be a 
healthful climate? 

A. — I think as healthful as anywhere 
in the State of Texas on account of 
the drainage and water. 

By iMr. Brahan. 

Q. — I would like to ask Mr. Blakely 
if he is in any way connected with the 
Ransome place ; if he is to get any 
profit or make anything out of it? 

A. — No, sir; I am not. I only wish 
I was. 

Q. — You are not interested in any 
way, shape or form or in any contract 
connected with the Ransome farm? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy : 
Q. — Do you know of anyone inter- 
ested? 

A. — No, sir; I do not. 

Q. — Anyone in the past? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Explain about the building of 
the road. 

A. — I took the matter up with the 
Commissioners. This has been a pub- 
lic road ever since I can remember ; 
twenty-five years. I have traveled 
over it that long and when they had 
that bond issue, of course I wanted 
to get that road, if I could, and I 
took the matter up with the penitenti- 
ary Commissioners and ask them to 
let me make the County a proposition ; 
they to furnish the material for grav- 
eling this road, the concreate for cul- 
verts, and we would do the work. They 
submitted the proposition to the Gov- 
ernor, and they notified me to go be- 
fore the Commissioners' Court and 
make them the proposition, and they 
have a contract on file in Huntsville 
and one in Richmond for this contract. 

Q. — Under this contract the State 
is to have a gravel road? 

A. — Yes, sir ; from one end to the 
other, and I wanted the Commission- 
ers to furnish me material to make 
it go one mile further. This is it (In- 
dicates by gesture) out in front of 
the house, and it runs to the north 
line of the Ransome tract. 



Senator Jno. G. Willacy interro- 
gates Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — Mr. Brahan, how do you em- 
ploy your engineer at the Sugar Plant 
at Harlem? 

A. — By the year. 

Q. — Also Clemens? 

A. — By the year. 

Q. — What part of the year are your 
sugar plants in operation? 

A. — About three months ; ninety 
days. 

Q. — What do these engineers per- 
form when the sugar mills are not in 
operation? 

A. — They put in the repairs for the 
next crop ; go over the machinery, 
have charge of all the machinery for 
pumping water for the different build- 
ings ; the gin ; laundry ; the mixed 
feed plant, and look after the locomo- 
tives. 

Q. — Do they have anything to do 
with the Electric Light plant? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is the salary you pay? 

A. — $150 per month. 

Q. — Without or with board? 

A. — They are allowed to eat at the 
Camp. 

Q. — Have you enough to keep him 
busy during the sugar grinding 
seasons? 

A. — Practically. 

Q. — What would it cost the State to 
employ a man to perform service he 
does between seasons? 

A. — It would cost them $600.00 or 
$700.00. 

Q. — What would it cost the State to 
employ other men to perform the 
duties of the engineers now employed 
between grinding seasons ; take care 
of the different plants, etc.? 

A. — I think it would cost you more 
money for the superintendent. 

Q. — Is it the custom for a Sugar 
Camp to keep the engineers employed 
the whole year? 

A. — I wrote Mr. Diamond, and he 
says there is not a house in Louisiana 
that does not employ their engineers 
by the year, and they pay them from 
$125.00 per month to $7,500.00 per 
year, according to their capacity and 
capacity of the mill. The usual price 
is from $150.00 to $200.00 per month. 

Q. — He is not kept in idleness in 
the grinding season? 

A. — I will state the engineer at the 
Halrlem and Imperial, and on the 
Clemens farm Mr. Smith has the su- 
pervision on both the Ramsey and 
Clemens farms, and in the winter 
time he sees that they are kept in 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



277 



shape. Now I want to say this; when 
Mr. House ran the sugar mill he kept 
one engineer, and two frequently, the 
year round, and I think this was very 
sensible in Mr. House.. 



FRIDAY, MAY 23, 1913, AT IM- 
PERIAL FARM. 

Testimony by A. K. Addison. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Give your name to the senog- 
rapher. 

A. — A. K. Addison. 

Q. — What connection do you have 
with the prison system? 

A. — Manager of the Imperial State 
Farm. 

Q. — How many acres do you have 
in cultivation? 

A. — Sixty-two hundred and forty. 

Q. — How much of that is in cane? 

A. — One thousand acres. 

Q.— The same amount in cane now 
as when the land was purchased? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Where you plant cane now, 
do you plant it on old cane land or 
on new land? 

A. — We have it on new land. We 
leased some land. 

Q. — What I am trying to get at; 
is the cane deteriorating on the 
land where it has been planted, or 
do you go to new land to get a bet- 
ter crop? 

A. — Yes, sir; we planted it all on 
new land. 

Q. — You have been here how long? 

A. — This is the third year. I came 
here the 26th day of January, 1911. 

Q. — What is the average yield of 
sugar cane per acre? 

A. — About fifteen tons. 

Q. — That is about your average? 

A. — Yes, sir; that is about the 
general average. 

Q. — Do you consider fifteen tons 
a profitable yield of cane? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You don't think any money 
can be made on fifteen tons to the 
acre? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How is this soil for cotton? 

A. — It makes good cotton, and we 
don't have to have much rain in July 
and August. 

Q. — About what is the average 
yield of cotton since you came here? 

A. — Last year on some lands I 
made a bale to the acre; the lowest 
was about a quarter bale to the acre. 



Q. — Do you think it will average 
one-half bale? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many acres have you 
raised in Irish potatoes? 

A. — This is our first year in po- 
tatoes. 

Q. — You have not grown them 
here before? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Are you accustomed to hand- 
ling convicts? 

A. — Nearly twenty years; the 25th 
of next month. 

Q. — Then you have handled con- 
vict labor before you came here? 
A. — Yes sir. 

Q. — Will you state to the com- 
mittee your opinion as to the com- 
parative effect the amount of labor 
received under the old law as com- 
pared with the present system? 

A. — We don't get as much work 
out of the men as we used to. Of 
course, the ten hour law is the pri- 
mary reason for that, and we also 
have a number of men who don't 
work as well. 

Q. Are you handling what you 
call the choice convict labor? 

A. — No, sir; we have all grades 
here. 

Q. — Do you consider the convicts 
on this farm equal to or superior or 
inferior to the convicts on the other 
farms? 

A. — Well, I could not say. I don't 
know anything about that. 

Q. — You don't know to the con- 
trary? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What is the average day's ac- 
tual work you get out of them? 

A. — About seven and a half; not 
over eight hours work. 

Q. — What makes the difference in 
time between tbat and the ten hours 
— how is that time used up? 
A. — Going to and from work. 
Q. — Are the officers and guards 
on this farm in sympathy with the 
State in its operations? 
A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 
Q. — Do you know of any inclina- 
tion on the part of any officer or 
guard to obstruct the operation of 
the new law? 

A. — There has never been a man 
here who has not assisted me in 
every way possible to carry out the 
new law to the letter. 

Q. — Do you believe the new law 
is a good law so far as the conduct 
of the farm is concerned? 



278 



Keport and Findings of 



A. — I believe the new law is all 
right with the exception of the rush 
seasons ; say, March, April and June 
and we should have eleven hours of 
actual work instead of ten hours. 

Q. — About what is the number of 
hours free labor put in during the 
same months? 

A. — They put in about fourteen 
or fifteen hours. 
Q. — Voluntarily? 
A. — Yes, sir. 
Q.— Willing to do it? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And it is necessary for their 
crops ? 

A. — Yes, sir ; for this season of the 
year. 

Q. — Are there a great number of 
days in the 3'ear, due to the weath- 
er or other causes, convicts cannot 
work at all? 

A. — Yes, sir ; I have gone for six 
or seven days without turning the 
men out of the building. 

Q. — During such times there are no 
returns ? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many convicts have you 
on this farm? 
A. — Four hundred and ninety-nine. 
Q. — What number of them actually 
work? 

A. — About three hundred and ninety 
go to work in the fields ; the others 
are camp men : wash men ; black- 
smiths, dairy men, stock men, car- 
penters. 

Q. — Do they all do work of some 
character? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You have no convicts here who 
are unable to work at all onty those 
that are sick from time to time? 

A. — That is all. We have between 
85 and 100 charged to the farm that 
are cripples ; one armed, epileptics, 
etc. We work them around in the 
garden and yard. 

Q. — Are they such labor as you 
would employ if you were running a 
private institution? 

A. — No, sir ; I would not. 
Q. — Does the maintenance for this 
number of incompetents make it a 
burden for the farm to carry? 
A. — Yes, sir. • 

Q. — Is their labor enough to pay 
for their grub and clothing? 

A. — No, sir; some are paralyzed, 
and things of that kind. 

Q. — How do you punish your con- 
victs when they violate your rules? 
A. — Dark cells. 



Q. — Do you ever use cnains? 

A. — One instance, and that was for 
mutiny. 

Q. — Do you find it has an}' benefi- 
ciary effect on convicts to put them 
in stripes ? 

A. — Not much ; some of them it does. 
It seems to have a better effect on 
the negroes than whites. 

Q. — What about the dark cell? 

A. — I don't believe in the dark cell. 

Q. — Does it do any good? 
A. — Very little good. 

Q. — Which is the most humane; the 
chain or the strap? 

A. — The strap is the most inhu- 
mane. 

Q. — Is not that governed very 
largely by who wields the strap? 

A. — Yes, sir ; it depends very large- 
ly on how it is used. 

Q. — Are you able to get a reason- 
able day's work out of your con- 
victs without punishing them? 

A. — There is a majority here who do 
not give any trouble at all, but some 
we have to punish. 

Q. — Do you put a number of con- 
victs to work without guards? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Find you can trust some of 
them? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think it practicable to 
use trusties as guards? 

A. — No, sir ; I do not. 

Q. — Why do you think not? Why? 

A. — It would depend on the condi- 
tions on which they are put out. 
Now, in some States, I understand, 
they use them as guards. If a man 
tries to escape and the convict guard 
captures him, he is recommended for 
pardon. I think that would enuanger 
the lives of those who are working 
in a squad, provided this was worked 
on the same system as in Mississippi. 
I understand this is the rule over 
there and it is the only reward they 
get 

get if a man tries to escape and he 
is recaptured, the Governor pardons 
the convict guard. 

Q. — About how much land does 
each convict cultivate? 

A. — About sixteen or sixteen and a 
half acres. 

Q. — About what does free laoor cul- 
tivate? 

A. — All the way from twenty to 
twenty-five acres. 

Q. — Is that about an average? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.— What does it cost to secure 
free labor in this community? 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



279 



A. — I don't know. I could not ans- 
wer that. I don't hire tree labor and 
don't know. 

Q. — Allowing that you pay $1.00 per 
day for work every day except Sun- 
days; that would cost $313 per year 
per capita, and that means they would 
work every day. loosing- none on ac- 
count of weather conditions or any- 
thing else. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I think I figured up yesterday 
the labor on this farm costs $434.92 
per capita, aud yet you estimate free 
labor would cultivate between twenty 
nad twenty-five acres where convicts 
will cultivate only sixteen and a frac- 
tion. 

A. — Yes, sir ; that is about the av- 
erage with the men who rent land. 
He figures about twenty or twenty- 
five acres to the hand. 

Q. — Under our present system the 
convict labor is costing us more than 
the free labor, and the free labor is 
doing more work. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How much of that do you 
charge to the present law? In other 
words, do you think any part of that 
is due to the fact we only require 
them to labor ten hours? 

A. — That is where a good deal comes 
in, especially at this season of the 
year. I don't think we get enough 
work out of them. You see at this 
season it is when the rush farming is 
coming on, but every July or 
August there is not much veg- 
etation up, and the crops are 
laid by, and the fall of the 
year is coming on and the days get- 
ting shorter, and it is impossible to 
work them — 

Q. — When they are working will they 
work as well as free labor? 

A. — Some do and some do not. 1 
I have 150 or 250 who work as well 
as free labor. 

Q. — It largely depends on the man? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In the selection of your guards, 
do you select them as to merit, or 
political recommendations? 

A. — I select them on merit. 

Q. — vs'hat is your system of receiv- 
ing groceries and supplies? Do you 
order them direct from the Commis- 
sion? Do you send in j'our requisi- 
tion to the Prison Commission? 

A. — Yes. sir ; once a month. 

Q. — And they are supposed to fill 
your orders? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Q. — They have them shipped direct 
from the parties from whom purch- 
ased? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do they send you an invoice 
from whom it was shipped? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Does that invoice state the qual- 
ity. 

A. — No, sir ; it does not say anything 
about the quality. 

Q. — Then, you would not know how 
to figure it up as to quality? 

A. — Now the bacon I can check up, 
and it gives us the brands of the flour 
and the brands of baking powder, 
and we judge from that what the 
quality is. 

Q. — Who received these supplies? 

A. — The steward. 

Q. — Is he a man competent to fill 
that place? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Does he understand the quali- 
ties of groceries? 

A. — I could not say. 

Q.— Would he be able to tell if the 
quality he received would be equal to 
the quality ordered? ' 

A. — In some I would think so. but 
in some he might not, but I think so. 

Q. — But you always have it checked 
raised on this farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Where do you gin the cotton 
on this farm? 

A. — On the plantation. 

Q. — Have you your own gin? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.— What is your system of selling 
your cotton? 

A. — Last year as soon as we would 
get one hundred bales on hand, we 
would notify the Prison Commission- 
ers, and they would instruct me to 
ship it out. 

Q. — The Prison Commissioners would 
instruct you to sell it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You don't sell any produce at 
all? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Mr. Addison, have you ever heard 
of any money transactions between 
the officers or guards and the con- 
victs? 

A. — None whatever. 

Q. — When a convict is to be dis- 
charged, and he has nis per diem and 
overtime coming to him, how is that 
settled? 

A. — I keep a record of it right 
here. The Commissioners send 
me a list of the amount due 
each man as he goes out, and 



280 



Report and Findings of 



on the day he goes out, I 
draw on the Prison Commission with 
draft for whatever the amount is for 
overtime, per diem and railroad tick- 
et. I purchase the ticket myself, 
and he signs a receipt and sends it 
in to the Commission. 

Q. — Is there any part held back be- 
cause he owes anybody? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you know any instance where 
a guard or employee has held an ob- 
ligation against a convict? 

A. — No, sir. In a few instances 
they order a suit of clothes. Some- 
times they want a nice suit. I allow 
them the privilege of sending off 
and getting their order, and have a 
nice tailor made suit sent in. They 
tell me the amount of it. I never force 
them to take the clothes. Sometimes 
they take them and sometimes they 
don't. 

Q. — Have you ever seen the clothes? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think they are sold at 
a reasonable Talue? 

A. — I protect them along that line. 

Q. — Have you ever had whiskey 
among your guards or convicts? 

A. — I have had some of them to get 
hold of whiskey, but we soon estab- 
lished a freight office at Saratia, and 
post office, and it is not necessary to 
send men where whiskey is, and we 
have no trouble. 

Q. — Do you know of any instance 
where your guards received whisky? 

A. — The records will show we have 
had two or three guards, which have 
come to my attention, and they have 
been discharged. 

Q. — You don't permit liquor at 
all? 

A. — No liquor is permitted on my 
camp at all. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q^ — From your observation, has the 
ten cents per diem been of any ben- 
efit to you in handling the convicts 
on this farm? Has it helped you, in 
handling your convicts? 

A. — Well. I think so, probably. 

Q. — Has it gotten better service from 
them? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You think it has proven as much 
benefit as it has cost the State? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Would you suggest any system 
of reward, or benefits, that might be 
substituted for the 10 cents per diem 
to advantage? 

A. — I would rather give it to them 
in good time. 



Q. — You think it would be best to 
settle the overtime the same way? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now, the man who 
goes ahead and behaves himself and 
does an honest day's work receives 
his 10 cents per diem. The man who 
does not behave himself gets the same 
amount. I don't think that is any 
encouragement. I think the trouble 
is that the man who comes to do right 
and get along there, is not enough 
encouraged. A number of men go 
out to the field and will not do a 
day's work. They get their per diem 
just the same as the man who is 
trying to help us all he can. 

Q. — We have been told that the 10 
cents per diem causes dissatisfaction. 

A. — That is a fact ; yes, sir. 

Q. — You think the very best reward 
that could be given him would be the 
reduction of his time? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would not that on the other 
hand work a hardship on the life- 
time man? 

A. — Yes, sir; it would, but they are 
not entitled to any per diem. 

Q. — Under the ruling of the present 
Attorney General they are, but under 
the ruling of the former Attorney 
General they are not. 

Q. — Have you ever tired or initiated 
any system of rewards on your own 
account besides the 10 cents per 
diem? 

A. — The only merit I give ; I make 
a trusty of him. We work, I suppose, 
one hundred and seventy-five men we 
don't carry under the shot gun. If a 
man goes ahead and shows some dispo- 
sition to get along I reward him by 
placing him in a squad where a shot 
gun is not over him. 

Q. — It was suggested yesterday at 
the Harlem farm that the men had 
done better work under these circum- 
stances. Mr. Blakely stated on one oc- 
casion he offered his men, if they 
would pick a certain amount of cotton 
that he would allow them to pick cot- 
ton for some of the neighbors on Sat- 
urday ; that is, if they picked a cer- 
tain amount by Friday night, and he 
would give them the amount they re- 
ceived. This was kept up for three 
weeks when complaint was made by 
the citizens. Now do you think a 
system of that kind put into operation 
on all our farms would be sufficient 
encouragement to the men to he 
worth while? That is, if the men 
would do a certain amount of work 
by Friday night, that you would give 
them whatever they might make on 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



281 



Saturday in place of the overtime? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would that make them take 
more interest on tne farm and the 
farm work? 

A.— Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — And instead of getting out and 
doing work for the outside, let them 
work for the State, provided they did 
a da3 r 's work from Monday night to 
Friday night. Would it make men 
more loyal? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And they would be more satis- 
fied than with the per diem? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now Captain Addition, your 
commisioners are supplied here from 
Huntsville, are they not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you ever been furnished 
with provisions that have not come up 
to the standard charged on the in- 
voice? Have you had. any inferior 
meats or flour? 

A.— No, sir. We generally have 
pretty good articles. 

Q. — You get short clear bacon? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you have your bacon exam- 
ined? 

A. — Yes, sir; just as soon as it gets 
here and weighed out, and we have 
the commissary man weigh it right 
in the Commissary. 

Q. — Now, in checking it out to the 
cooks, are you able to tell just how 
much meat and how much flour is 
furnished to each man per day? 

Q. — Yes, sir ; we keep our daily com- 
missary book, and make a daily issue 
every morning, and of course we pro- 
rate that for the guards. 

Q. — You don't keep a separate ac- 
count for the guards? 

A. — No, sir ; just so much for a days 
rations. 

Q. — Could you turn to your books 
and tell us just how much meat per 
day your camp is using? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And what the average wouid be 
for each man? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you mind telling us the 
average for the convicts? 

A. — Yes, sir. (Captain Addison sends 
after books). 

Q. — Are the charges made to you 
against your farm here by the Prison 
Commission, for supplies manufact- 
ured by the State, reasonable or un- 
reasonable? 

A. — I think they are unreasonable 
in some few instances. 



Q. — Do you have any cases in mind 
of overcharges? 

A. — They charged us $3.50 for this 
book. (Exhibiting book, cloth bound, 
about 2 1-2 inches in thickness.) 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — Have you any invoices for any 
other books of this character? 

A. — Yes, sir. They charged us $1.25 
for comforts on that bed (indicating), 
and I think that is too much. 

Q. — Here are two different kinds of 
prices on this invoice. Are these dif- 
ferent kinds of books? (Refers to 
invoice.) 

A. — No, sir; I don't think so. We 
have never had but one kind. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — Mr. Addison, we have here some 
charges for mattresses. On the 3rd 
day of September, 1912, you are 
charged with fourteen guards mat- 
tresses, $3.00 apiece, $42.00, and on the 
18th of February, 1913, you are 
charged with 110 convict mattresses, 
$1.75 apiece, $192.50. Is there any 
difference between these mattresses? 

A. — Yes, sir; the guards' are double 
mattresses for double beds, and- are 
worth more. 

Q. — Now on the 18th of February 
you are charged with 100 B mattresses 
at $1.75. Is that the right price? 

A. — Yes, sir ; I suppose so. Those 
are single mattresses. 

Q. — In the statement made up here 
of the operation of the Imperial farm 
for 1912 vou are charged with Ev- 
pense account, Pay roll, $31,200.26. 
What is included in that pay roll for 
the year? 

A. — That is for guards; steward, 
managers, blacksmith, gunsmith, gin 
man, gardener, stock man. I believe 
that is about all. 

Q. — You are charged with $69,933.50 
for maintenance and supplies. What 
is included in that item? 

A. — I suppose that is the groceries. 

Q. — You charge clothing seperately? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know the average cost 
of maintaining convicts the last year? 

A. — They senu me a statement. I 
could not recall it just now. Senator 
Willacy states he thinks the figures he 
compiled on this subject yesterday was 
$432.92. 

Q.— What I wanted to get at is 
what it costs your farm per month 
per man. Now, the cost of maintain- 
ing a man on your farm is about $2 
per month more than on the Harlem 
farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



282 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — How do 3011 account for that 
difference ? 

A. — I hardly know. You mean $2.00 
per month per man? 
Q. — Yes, sir. 

A. — There shouM be a reason for 
it, but what it is I am not able to 
tell you. 

Mr. Brahan makes the folio wing- 
statement : We have a mixed class of 
men here ; the only place outside of 
Himtsville. We have white men, Mex- 
icans and negroes and Mexicans, and 
their taste for eating- do not run along 
the same lines. What satisfies a ne- 
groe does not satisfy a Mexican. What 
sat i sties a Mexican does not satisfy a 
white man. We have one camp here 
of white men. We have Mexicans on 
one side and negroes on the other, and 
the canning we did on the Har- 
lem farm would account for it more 
than any other thing-, and now we feed 
the white men fresh beef twice a 
week; on the other camps we feed it 
once a week. You take the Mexicans 
and negroes and you cook for them 
in the same kitchen, and it increases 
the cost of cooking- a great deal, as 
the cooks have to prepare different 
things, and another thing, we have 
got 'sorrier' men on this place than 
all other farms put together. Captain 
Addison may be too nice to say these 
things, but I will assume the respon- 
sibility when I say thej' were put on 
him here, and he has to work this 
kind of men. 

Lieutenant Governor Mayes resumes 
interrogation of Captain Addison : 

Q. — That system you have of ascer- 
taining the average food consumption 
of each man per day has just been 
worked out since January? 

A. — Yes, sir. I did not use it prior 
to January. 

Q. — Now, your farming operations 
of last year shows a loss of $100,- 
274.54 on this farm, which is an av- 
erage loss — how many men did you 
have here last year? 

A. — I had about five hundred men 
last year. 

Q. — About $200.00 per man on the 
farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is not that an unusual loss to 
make on farming operations? 

A. — Yes, sir ; I think so. What do 
the credits from the farm products 
show? 

Q.— It shows $119,293.11. 

A. — We show here more than that. 
On my books it is $160,000.00 and some- 
thing. (Book is handed to Captain 



Addison.) We should have $137,094.59 
products from the farm to our credit. 

Q. — What have you charged to im- 
provements ? 

A. — The total amount, counting im- 
provements is $177,278.58. The im- 
provements is $20,123.00. 

Q- — You are credited here with 
$21,496.20 for improvements? 

A. — Our credit should be $157,000.00 
and something. 

Q. — Does that include your, inven- 
tory of December 31st, 1913? 

A. — That is just the farm products. 
Porducts raised in T912. 

By Mr. Tittle: 

Q. — Is that from our office or from 
your records? 

A. — Our records here. 

Q. — Have you ever submitted that to 
our office to see if it checked? 

A. — Yes, sir ; t we sent in a state- 
ment the first of the year. 

Lieutenant Governor Mayes interro- 
gates Captain Addison: 

Q. — Let's compare items. Your sales 
of cotton is $49,736.42. What do your 
sales show? 

A. — My total sales, 934 bales, $50,- 
058.75. 

Q.— Sales of cotton seed is $6572.56. 
What does your cotton seed sales 
show? 

A. My cotton seed receipts is 
$6,249.24. 

Q. — The sale of cane is $26,598.34. 

A. — We have got $29,274.50. We 
figured it at $4 per ton. 

Q. — The sale of cane, then, is 
merely a book item? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — rAs a matter of fact, tnere 
was no sale of cane? 

A. — No, sir; that is only a book 
item. There was no cane shipped. 

Q. — We have here a sale of sup- 
plies, $17,068.85. 

A. — That must have been the beef 
hides we shipped. 

Q. — No, sir; we have hides here. 

A. — We have an item here of ev- 
erything we shipped. There were no 
supplies up to 1912. It does not 
show any supplies. 

Q. — Item $1,250.53. Have you an 
item of hides? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You have here an item of logs, 
$991.85. 

A. — We have nothing like that 
that went from this farm. We have 
not had hogs enough here. We have 
to lease land to get wood. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



283 



Q. — You have here an item of 
hogs, $1,659.12. Have you that 
item? 

A. — (No response). 

Q.— Peas, $3 36.00. Have you got 
any peas there you sold? 

A. — 110 bushels of peas, Ramsey 
farm, in April. 

Q. — What are you credited with? 

A. — It has never been carried out. 

Q. — Does it enter into the items 
of credit there? 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — You have potatoes, $333.38. 
Have you this item? 

A. — Yes, sir; we shipped a carload 
of potatoes about May or June about 
a year ago; 150 sacks of potatoes, 
$333.38. 

Q. — That is correct. Now cloth- 
ing; what clothing did you sell last 
year? Mr. Brahan states: I imag- 
ine that is where I took men from 
here to the Ramsey farm and it is 
the extra suit they wore off. 

Q. — Dogs, $190.00. Did you sell 
them here last year? 

A. — Yes, sir; they were shipped to 
other camps. 

Q. — Did they enter into your ac- 
count? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Labor to outsiders, $3,096.89. 
Did you sell labor last year? 

A. — Yes, sir; we chopped bottom 
for Chatman. 

Q. — Do your books show how 
much you received for that? 

A. — Yes, sir, 148 men worked for 
the Imperial Mercantile Company; 
taking off their crop, winter of 1911, 
and I moved force No. 3, there and 
put them in that building of Col. 
Eldridge's. The State had one half 
interest in the crop, and I suppose 
I worked them there thirty or forty 
days. 

Q. — What was your charge for that 
labor per day? 

A. — $1.00 per day. 

Q. — What kind of work was that? 

A. — Harvesting cane. 

Q. — Any complaint made to the 
Commissioner in regard to competi- 
tion of free labor? 

A. — No, sir; that was where we 
were working for Eldridge — and the 
State had a half interest in the crop. 

Q. — Do your books there show how 
much you received from labor at the 
other places? 

A. — 148 men to the Imperial Mer. 
Co. on January 22nd, $1,776.00, ana 
on January 28th 14 men. SI. 00 per 
day; $1,302.00 for January. 



Q. — I see here labor for iruprove- 
iments. You are credited with $21,- 
! 4 9 6.21. How much do you have 
there? 

A. — $20,073.00. 

Q. — Now, freight on cane, $2,- 
616.57, 1911. How do vou explain 
that? 

A. — I did not know we paid any 
freight on cane in 1911. 

Brahan states he does not remem- 
ber how this was unless Mr. Eld- 
ridge overcharges and gave it back 
in rebate. 

A. — I don't know how this was. 

The 1911 cane crop was delivered 

to the Eldridge Mercantile Co., and 

he hauled it out of the field with his 

own cars. There was no bill of that 

and I did not think there was any — 

Q. — Ginning cotton, $1,631.82. 

A. — That was for ginning cotton 

| for the Harlem State Farm. 

Q. — Now, we have $119,293.11, 
and you say your account is $157,000 
! and something, and most of the items 
jhave been less than on this. Now 
j comparing item by item, your figures 
i in most instances are less th,an these 
figures. What makes this difference 
j of about $33,000.00? 

A. — We figured our corn and ev- 
erything; even garden stuff and pro- 
ducts. I have got the amount that 
we have fed out of our garden; the 
amount raised. 

Q. — You credit yourself with all 
the corn? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Does Huntsville now charge 
you up with those things? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You send them a statement 
every month? 

A. — Yes, sir. They credit me up 
and they send the statement back. 

Q. — By using your system of book- 
keeping in connection with their sys- 
tem of bookkeeping there is no audit 
in the world that could tell what 
your farm is doing. 

A. — Yes, sir; I will admit that, for 
at that time they did not know what 
we were — 

Q. — So the books are not worth 
anything? 

A. — No, sir. This book was made 
up to satisfy himself. 

Q. — What do you charge the farm 
for ginning cotton? 

A. — Thirty or thirty-five cents per 
hundred. 



284 



Report and Findings of 



By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — How does that compare with 
the other gins outside? 

A. — I gin five cents cheaper than 
the gins outside. We need a first 
class bookkeeper here, and another 
thing we need a first class steward 
in every camp in the system. I think 
the position of steward is one of the 
most important positions they have 
on these farms. 

Q. — Do you think it fair to charge 
you up with maintenance, supplies, 
clothing, overhead expenses, hospital 
expenses, the men, and then charge 
you 50 cents per day above that for 
labor before showing the profit on 
the books? 

A. — It does not look that way. It 
does not look like they are giving 
the farm a square deal. I don't 
think it is fair, and as I awhile ago 
stated, we have got 75 to 100 men 
who are worthless so far as labor 
is concerned to the farm. 

Q. — I see in several of these State 
farm reports item of crop expense. 
What do you understand by the item 
of crop expense in the farming op- 
erations? 

A. — Well, unless it is those items; 
say January 12, freight $2.00, 
clothing, $39.90, and — 

Q. — That is not it. 

Mr. Brahan states: It is tools and 
implements. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — Don't you carry any item of 
crop expense? 

Mr. Brahan states: Mr. Huey 
might give us some light on this. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — How much cash did you pay 
out last year for feed stuff for teams? 

A. — I think about $800.00 for hay. 
That is all I bought. 

Q. — Do you think it feasible to 
grow all your forage here? 

A. — It is very difficult to put up 
hay here for this reason: we have a 
very heavy fog here in the Brazos 
bottom, and there are very few hours 
in the day we can put it up, and it 
will not keep. 

Q. — Do you consider alfalfa a suc- 
cess here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Without irrigation? 

A. — Very well. My experience 
since we have been here is that we 
have done very well. We had four 
cuttings last year, and averaged 
something like a short ton to the 
acre. 



Q. — Have you tried sorghum? 

A. — Sorghum is very hard to cure 
for the reason I stated awhile ago. 

Q. — How are oats? 

A. — They do very well. 

Q. — Do you see any reason you 
cannot grow sufficient forage for 
your stock? 

A. — We can grow sufficient of ev- 
erything but hay. It takes plenty of 
hay for mules. 

Q. — Have you ever made an esti- 
mate of what it is costing to main- 
tain mules on your farm per month? 

A. — $7.00 per month. 

Q. — Have you any suggestions as 
to how that cost of maintenance 
might be reduced, say by changing 
the method of feeding, etc? 

A. — No, sir; I think that is about 
as cheap as we can feed them. 

Q. — Have you any practical knowl- 
edge of the silo? 

A. — No, sir; none whatever. 

Q. — You don't know if it could be 
used advantageously to work teams? 

A. — I think so. I think we ought 
to have a large silo here, and a small 
one at each of the camps. I think 
we ought to have one for our dairy 
cattle. You can raise products here 
to fill those silos and I think it 
would be a paying proposition, yet I 
have not had any experience with 
the silo. 

Q. — Have you any suggestions re- 
garding the diversifications of crops 
to increase the profits of the farm? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think the land that 
has been in cane a number of years 
should be fertilized. I think it ought 
to be planted in corn and pea vines, 
and rotated, and the next year put 
that pea land in cotton, and then 
plant corn on another piece, and so 
on, and bring it back to its normal 
condition. Some of this land is very 
thin. I don't know how to illus- 
trate it only as a bank account. You 
deposit a certain amount of money 
in a bank and you keep on drawing 
the money out and never putting any 
in the bank, and the first thing you 
know there is nothing left in the 
bank. Just as soon as the fodder 
on the cane is dry in the spring 
of the year they stick a match to 
it and it burns off as clean as a 
floor. There is no deposit. That is 
the great trouble with this place 
today. 

Q. — What was you average yield 
in corn last year? 

A. — About thirty bushels. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee 



285 



Q. — The last five years? 

A. — I could not say. I nave only 
been here two years. 

Q. — What do you understand the 
average yield of cotton to be in this 
section for the last five years? 

A. — About a half bale for the last 
five years. 

Q. — Do you think thirty bushels of 
corn to the acre a profitable crop? 

A. — Well, I hardly think so. It is 
considered a good crop for this spot. 

Q. — State the results of your 
method of fertilization? 

A. — In 1911, we bought a lot of 
disc plows, and I suppose I prepared 
about 1000 acres of corn land. We 
disced the land in the fall of the year, 
and we did not have time to disc it 
all, and we bedded a lot of it the 
old fashioned way, and there was a 
difference of 15 to 18 bushels per 
acre on the land we disced, where 
we turned under green vegetation, 
and the old land we plowed with the 
ordinary turning plows. 

Q. — If you follow that method, how 
much do you estimate you can in- 
crease the yield of corn? 

A. — I think by rotating the land, 
by following up with pea vines in 
the fall season, I think we should 
make from 5 6 to 60 bushels per acre. 

Q. — Would you suggest any other 
crops aside from corn, cotton and 
cane? 

A. — I think corn and cotton is the 
most profitable crops we can raise. 

Q. — Do potatoes prove profitable? 

A. — This is our first year's expe- 
rience. We will probably be cut 
short a half a crop. We will proba- 
bly get 5 or 60 bushels to the acre. 

Q. — How many acres of leased 
land is there under your charge? 

A. — About 1700 acres. 

Q. If you were given able bodied 
men, how many acres do you think 
you can cultivate per man? 

A. — Under this ten hour system? 

Q. — Yes, sir. 

A. — I could cultivate 18 or 20 
acres to the man. 

Q. — And get the best results from 
it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — You are charged from $1.75 
to $1.85 for convict shoes. What 
could they be bought for? 

A. — $1.40 to $1.50. 

Q. — What do you know about this 
item; charge of hats, 13 cents to 



35 cents? Do you consider them 
the. same hats? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Made the same way? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. Here you are invoiced 13 
cents for one and another 3 5 cents? 

A. — Yes, sir; and one invoice 
shows 7 cents. 

Q. It is marked 7 cents, but the 
figures carried forward shows 13 
cents. Now you are charged here on 
one invoice 50 cents for pants, and 
another invoice 90 cents; some 50 
cents; some 70 cents, and some 90 
cents? 

A. — They are the same weight of 
goods and the same grade of pants. 

Q. — And the price varies from 5 
cents to 90 cents? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, you are charged with 
sheets. Some are invoiced at 28 
j cents and some at 50 cents. Are 
I they the same? 

A. — Yes, sir. There is some little 
difference in the width, but they are 
jthe same grade. 

Q. Now on shirts. Do they use 
I the same kind of shirts? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — The prices range from 38 
| cents to 75 cents per shirt. In other 
I words, for maintenance and supplies 
I the factories at Huntsville charge you 
| an arbitrary price. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.- — Anything they want to charge 
you? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, when you send anything 



to Huntsville, do you charge them 
an arbitrary price? 

A. — We don't send them anything. 

Q. — I notice you are charged here 
with items of boxing at various times 
for packing goods. That is boxes 
and crates? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — They charge you with all 
boxes and crates sent out from 
Huntsville? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — 100 pairs of shoes. $1.75, and 
packing $2.50. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Those are brogan shoes, with 
$2.50 packing charges? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think it possible for 
any farm to pay its expenses and be 
charged up with maintenance and 
supplies at arbitrary prices that any- 
body would want to charge up to 
you? 



286 



Report and Findings of 



A. — No, sir. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 
• Q. — Captain Addison, at different 
times I have been shown shoes that 
have been cut to pieces. Is there 
much destruction of clothing on your 
farm ? 

A. — Very little. I don't believe 
the reports at the office will show 
we have had but three or four 
men we have had to punish 
along those lines. When they 
wilfully cut up shoes, or cloth- 
ing, either, we punish them for 
it, and I think the records will 
bear me out that we have had only 
three or four men to punish. 

Q. — Would you say about how 
many pairs of shoes it would require 
for each one of your convicts per 
year? 

A. — That depends on the weather. 
One pair of shoes during the ordin- 
nary weather will last the men three 
months. If it is during a rainy sea- 
son they will get out of shape, and 
I tell you they will wear out a pair 
in thirty or forty days. 

Q. — Would you estimate it re- 
quires as many as four pair of shoes 
per year for the convicts under your 
charge? 

A. — It requires more than that. 
I should not think it would take 
less than five pair per year. 

Q. — How many suits of clothing 
will they require per year? 

A. — It will take six suits under 
our present system of laundrying. 
When we get our new laundry com- 
pleted it will not take so many. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — That does not mean six coats? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — When you take an inventory, 
do you make those inventories up? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How do you arrive at the 
value of improvements? 

A. — We take the material bought 
and shipped to us, the invoice, and 
keep an account of our daily labor, 
and see how many days we work. 

Q. Do you make any difference 
in the charge for workmen? 

A. — No, sir; carpenters are the 
same as helpers. 

Q. — To whom is this convict over- 
time paid? 

A. — It is paid to cooks, stock men, 
machinists, building tenders. 

Q. — If the 10 cents per diem was 
changed would you continue paying 
overtime? 



A. — I should think a man should 
be paid for his Sunday work. That is 
where that overtime, as a rule, comes 
in. Of course there is other over- 
time. Say, we are pumping water, 
and after he does a day's work the 
pumps should break down at 6:00 
o'clock, and probably we would not 
have water to start with the next 
morning, then it would be necessary 
to work that night. We try to avoid 
those things, if possible, all the 
time, but it is very necessary at 
times. 

Q. — In answer to a question Gov- 
ernor Mayes asked you awihle ago, 
you said you believed it would be ad- 
visable to offer a system of rewards. 
Do you think it would be advisable 
to adopt a system of rewards that 
was not uniform by all other mana- 
gers? 

A. — No, sir; I think not. It should 
be all over the system. 

Q. — If one man accorded his men 
privileges not accorded on other 
farms, it would result in dissatis- 
faction? 

A. — Yes, sir; if that knowledge 
was to reach the prisoners, I am 
sure it would. 

Q. — If there is any. form of re- 
ward, it should be uniform? 

A. — Yes, sir; throughout the sys- 
tem. 

Q. — Do you think the policy of 
allowing the men wearing stripes to 
mingle wtih the others tends to de- 
moralize the good men? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think it does. I 
think that it is one of the evils that 
should be remedied as soon as pos- 
sible. The rebellious class, or in- 
corrigibles should be kept in a camp 
separate to themselves. It is demor- 
alizing for men who want to do 
right to be even around a crowd of 
that kind. 

Q. — Do you think the present rule 
of the Prison Commissioners keeps 
a man in the third grade too long 
if his conduct shows he ough to be 
released? 

A. — Sometimes a young fellow is 
enticed off with a gang like that 
through persuasion, and I think if he 
says he has been in the third grade 
and wants to reform, he ought to 
be given a chance. 

Q. — You think the present rules 
might be revised as to the handling 
of the men? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Prom your experience as man- 
ager to the prison system, have you 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



287 



any suggestions to make in a gen- 
eral way as to improvements of the 
system ? 

A. — Yes, sir; I would recommend 
solitary confinement in place of 
dark cells in which to keep our in- 
corrigibles, and I think where we get 
those very rebellious they should be 
sent from the farms to headquarters 
and kept there. I think there should 
be a place prepared for them, and 
let the wardens of the penitentiary 
and the Commissioners mete out 
such punishment as that man should 
have. They are better prepared to 
do it than we are. I recommend 
that the incorrigibles be kept sep- 
arate from the men who want 
to do right. It is demoraliz- 
ing, and they should be kept 
in a class to themselves, and it ought 
to be done as soon as possible. In 
other words, incorrigibles should be 
kept in one place. The incorrigibles 
on this farm will keep it demoral- 
ized, and at Ramsey a few will keep 
that place torn up. Of course, I un- 
derstand the present Prison Com- 
missioners cannot do any better than 
they are doing right now. They 
have to take care of these men just 
as well as they can. I think just 
as soon as they can get a way to 
separate them that it ought to be 
done. 

By Lieutenant Goveror Mayes: 

Q. — In the event this committee 
deems it advisable to acquire more 
lands for farm operations, either by 
lease or purchase, would you recom- 
mend that those lands be acquired 
somewhere in the immediate locality 
where the farms are already estab- 
lished? 

A. — For the negroes and Mexicans 
I would recommend that the farms 
be put in this locality, if possible, but 
a farm for white men I think should 
be put in north Texas; say Denton, 
Ellis, Collin, or some of those cotton 
growing counties. I would not rec- 
ommend the Brazos valley for white 
men. 

Q. — Why do you recommend this? 

A. — I don't think the white men 
are so healthy. This Brazos Valley 
is heavy soil and hard to work, and 
from another standpoint you take 
the people of North Texas and some 
have a horror of this place — prison- 
ers are the same way. They go to 
the walls, stay there a while, and 
when they transfer them down to the 
Brazos bottom it demoralizes them. 



Q. — Do you have much trouble 
with malaria? 

A. — Our hospital records here 
show we have only lost three men; 
two from pneumonia and one from 
heart trouble; no malaria. 

Q. — The malaria here is largely in 
the imagination, is it not? 

A. — Yes, sir; but I don't think it 
best to work white men. 

By Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — On the prairie, what do you 
think about that? 

A. — I don't recommend that. You 
have to work a great deal of bottom 
land and I suppose that prairie is 
what you call bottom land. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — Does the present system of 
working our farms ten hours per 
day have a demoralizing effect on 
the free labor in this part of the 
country? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — It works a disadvantage to 
the men working farms with free 
labor? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have seen that with 
my own eyes. Mr. Chatman, who 
works about 600 acres of land, has 
free labor. He will be hoeing when 
we go out in the morning, and his 
labor will hoe all right until noon. 
We give our men an hour at noon, 
and knock off at 5:00 or 5:30 and 
come in. Up until the time we knock 
off his men work well, but when we 
knock off his men just drag along. 

Q. — From your experience as a 
farmer, would you undertake to op- 
erate a farm in this section with ten 
hours of labor? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think it is pos- 
sible. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. How many acres of cotton did 
yuu have in last year? 

A. — A little over 1,8 5 acres. We 
got 93 4 bales. 

By Mr. Brahan: 

Q. The other day the committee 
was informed by a gentleman in 
this community, we allowed base- 
ball playing; dominoes; checkers, on 
this place, and he said one form of 
amusement was chunking each other 
with green cotton boles on this farm. 

A. — I have never heard anything 
about this. I remember reading the 
article, and also articles where some 
testified they went so far as to de- 
stroy cotton and corn on this place. 
I called ' Governor Mayes' attention 
to it this morning. I told him as 



288 



Report and Findings of 



we rode over the place to pay strict 
attention to the stand left, and that 
we will compare our stand with any 
that is worked with free labor, and I 
think the men have done extremely 
well, and I will say our cotton has 
been chopped to a perfect stand, and 
left in the right condition. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — Have you ever had occasion 
to punish men for destroying cot- 
ton? 

A. — Yes, sir; but not this year. 
Occasionally they do it maliciously, 
but I have had very little of it at 
any time. 

Senator Jno. . G. Willacy interro- 
gates Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — You have cleared a lot of land 
on this place? 

A. — No, sir; we have cleared land 
for other people. The expense ac- 
count, I think, will show this. We 
cleared some land for Mrs. Fields. 
This place has no wood on it. We 
leased one tract of land from Mrs. 
Shandley for the wood. We made 
the same kind of contract with Har- 
mer. We paid this rent to get the 
wood. 

Q. — You say you cleared the land 
to get the wood? 

A. — Yes, sir; and two years rent. 

Q. — And then you pay cash rent 
besides? 

A. — Yes, sir; we pay $5.00 per 
acre for cultivable land. 

Q. — Do you think that is a good 
trade to make? 

A. — Yes, sir; a splendid trade. 

Q. — About how many acres have 
you cleared altogether on the farms? 

A. — I don't guess we have cleared 
150 acres since we have been here. 
It is just for the wood. It takes an 
enormous quantity. 

Q. — On the Ramsey place you 
cleared some for cultivation? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

(At this time there was some dis- 
cussion among the members of the 
Committee and Mr. Brahan in re- 
gard to the number of acres of land 
cleared, also the number of miles of 
roads constructed on the State farms, 
also ditching and improvements of 
every character, and the Chairman 
of the Committee was instructed to 
write the following letter.) 

Austin, Tex., May 29th, 1913. 
Hon. Ben E. Cabell, 

Chairman Prison Commission, 

Huntsville, Tex. 
Dear Sir: Will you be kind enough 



to furnish the Committee investi- 
gating the finances of the peniten- 
tiary with the following: 

Number of acres of land cleared 
for purposes of cultivation on State 
farms and on lease farms. 

Number of miles of roads con- 
structed on State farms and leased 
farms. 

Amount of ditching constructed 
by the State farms and lease farms 
and the cost of same. 

Itemized statement with cost of im- 
provements of every character on all 
State farms and lease farms. 

Kindly address your reply at your 
earliest convenience to Lieutenant 
Governor Mayes at Austin, Texas. 

Yours sincerely, 
(Signed) WILL H. MAYES, 

Chairman Investigating Committee, 

Penitentiary System. 



FRIDAY, MAY 23, 1913, AT IMPE- 
RIAL FARM. 

Testimony of Arthur Aldridge Stiles. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — Mr. Stiles, this committee, as 
you know, is a Committee appointed 
by the Legislature to look yito the 
financial affairs of the Penitentiary 
System, and to ascertain, if possible, 
what has caused the financial losses 
the past two years, and to suggest, 
if we can, what can be done to rem- 
edy conditions in the future so as 
to place the penitentiary system on a 
profitable basis, retaining if possible 
the humanitarian features of our 
present law. We want to know from 
you just what is being done by your 
department in this section of the 
country, and along these lines we 
would like to interrogate you. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Give your name in full to the 
Secretary. 

A. — My name is Arthur Aldridge 
Stiles. 

Q. — What position do you hold 
with the State? 

A. — State Levy and Drainage Com- 
missioner. 

Q. — Under the operations of your 
office, have you been making any sur- 
veys or providing for any drainage 
on the State lands? 

A. — Yes, sir; we are now just be- 
ginning our survey, a complete to- 
pographic survey of the Clemens 
Farm; that being farther down the 
river, and in point of convenience the 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



289 



best to be in on. Now at the pres- 
ent time I have the main part of our 
department concentrated on the 
Clemens farm. We have been opera- 
ting there something like a month, 
and have gotten now a very good 
start, and if we have good weather, 
hope to finish the survey — what I 
call the topographic survey — in six 
weeks or two months. When the 
topographic survey is finished, we 
then take a map of our results of that 
survey, and by using that map, de- 
sign a drainage system and a levy 
system. With that design made out, 
based on the map, we then set stakes 
to indicate where the improvements 
will be made; where the ditches will 
be dug, and where the levies are to 
be built up. Now I want to be en- 
tirely clear on the nature of the sur- 
vey we are making. Now the neces- 
sity of draining that farm is well rec- 
ognized by men that have had charge 
of the plantation, and by men who 
know about those matters from an 
agricultural standpoint. The exces- 
sive rain water accumulates over 
that farm, and at the present time 
there is' no adjunct passageway for 
it to go to the tide water. There 
are a number of ditches, but they 
are inadequated and not altogether 
located in the right position. 
Now, we propose to make the 
necessary surveys and enlarge 
those ditches, and supplement 
them with additional ditches, 
therefore getting the surplus 
water off that farm during the spring' 
for instance, when it collects there, 
and the remainder of the stagnant 
water retards the growth of crops 
and makes this farm more or less 
deficient in its production. Now, I 
understand it seems to be the gener- 
al opinion it cannot be drained, along 
with a good many other farms in 
that vicinity. Now, the sole object is 
to increase the productiveness of the 
Clemens farm. 

Q. — Do you have to carry that 
water across any other lands in order 
to get it across the State lands? 

A. — We have hardly gone far 
enough to answer that question fully, 
but rather roughly will state we 
will in no instance have to cross other 
properties, but I will say that there 
will be no difficulty from that stand- 
point for the owners of the other 
properties that we would go over 
would be more than delighted for us 
to go that way. 



Q. — Are those drainage ditches put 
in at the State's expense? 

A. — At the present time the drain- 
age law provides that a district be 
formed, and that district vote on 
bonds and sell them, and the proceeds 
of the sale be applied to the drain- 
ing. I understand it is the inten- 
tion of the Prison Board to utilize 
the labor and teams of the peniten- 
tiary system at times when they 
can't utilize their men and teams at 
anything else, and where these ditch- 
es go through private property I 
suppose we will have to arrange with 
the land owners to pay their propor- 
tionate part of it. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
character of soil of the Clemens 
Farm? 

A. — Not as an agriculturalist. I 
am not. I know this is my opinion; 
there are a number of different kinds 
of land on this farm, and it is rather 
striking there are a good many 
grades of land. 

Q. — What I mean, is the fact it 
needs drainage 

A. — I am inclined to think the ef- 
ficiency of the CPemens farm has 
been, and now is, decidedly reduced 
for lack of drainage. 

Q. — Would you mind telling- the com- 
mittee in general what work you have 
been doing? Have you been making- 
surveys of properties for local bond is- 
sues, or have you been making sur- 
veys with the idea of benefiting the 
State? 

A. — Until the work began on the 
Clemens farm, the work of my de- 
partment has been on farms not be- 
longing to the State. The Clemens 
farm is the first place we have done 
any work for State lands. In that 
connection will say the uncleared part 
of the Brazos Valley is extremely dif- 
ficult to surrey, and for that reason is 
very expensive, and following that 
rule, so far as drainage is concerned, 
it seems unnecessary to make surveys 
of the unimproved parts until that land 
is cleared up, or some immediate pros- 
pect of its being cleared up. Now, 
where it is necessary to survey through 
the timber in order to get an outlet, 
of course, we do not think of stopping 
at that point, but we push through the 
timber notwithstanding the extra ex- 
pense. 

Q. — As an engineer qualified to make 
a topographic survey in reference to 
drainage, would that also apply to a 
proposition of irrigation? 



290 



Report and Findings of 



A. — Absolutely. They would abso- 
lutety go hand in hand. 

Q. — Have you made sufficient sur- 
veys on the Clemens farm to say 
whether or not the lands of the Clem- 
ens farm, or any considerable part 
of them, can be irrigated at a reas- 
onable expense? 

A. — I hardly believe the surveys have 
progressed far enough for me to an- 
swer that intelligently. There may 
be a possible storage in two sloughs 
which passes through that farm, but I 
can't say yet until I get the survey 
nearer completion whether or not 
those sloughs will be reservoirs of 
sufficient capacity to irrigate with. I 
would say we could pump out of the 
Brazos, but I understand the Brazos 
river water is brackish, and the sur- 
vey may show we may irrigate from 
somewhere else. 

Q. — Have you ever taken any levels 
on the Harlem farm or the Imperial? 

A. — Not yet. The primary level par- 
ty is coming this way, and I expect 
them to join us near Sealy. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
the elevation in the Brazos river? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q— What lift would that be? i 

A. — We completed a line to the 
river, I think, and I would say it 
was something like twenty feet. . 

Q. — That would be the average 
lift? 

A. — That would be the maximum 
lift with the river at its normal stage. 

Q. — Now, Mr. Stiles, if we under- 
took to irrigate this land, and use 
Oyster Creek as a storage basis, 
would that water be pumped first 
from the Brazos River. 

A. — I did not figure that way. Now, 
I must say in connection with all 
these questions that I am a little 
ahead of the survey. 

Q. — We understand that. 

A. — We might work a pump from 
the river into Oyster Creek, and use 
Oyster Creek as a reservoir. 

Q. — Yes, sir, 

A. — I can see that that would work 
under certain conditions. For in- 
stance, if it happened that the river 
was up when Oyster Creek was 
empty, I could see how it would work, 
and we could then fill Oyster Creek 
with good water. Now, I think when 
the surveys are completed it will 
show the capacity of Oyster Creek 
will irrigate quite a lot of property, 
and undoubtedly the water from 
Oyster Creek will be better for irri- 



gation than the water from the river, 
unless we could pump it from 
the river when it was at a 
high stage. At high stage, it 
gives us two advantages; one is it 
gives us a good lift, and the other 
is good water. I do not know 
whether brackishness comes up this 
far, but I do know where we are 
now it is, and the men tell me it is 
a little salty. 

Q. — Say, for instance, if we buy 
water from some company having a 
pumping plant. Of course, we buy 
water measured at the intake. All 
the loss, of course, would be charge- 
able to us, and that would be con- 
siderable, would it not? 

A. — It certainly would at periods 
of the year. I would imagine water 
would evaporate very heavily in June 
or July. After that you probably 
would not care. 

Mr. Brahan states: The last irri- 
gation should be in July; not later 
than the 25th of July. I would say 
without records the evaporation in 
July would be the very heaviest. 

Q. — It is entirely a question of 
engineering to begin with? 

A. — In my judgment, absolutely. 

Q. — It would depend entirely on the 
examination of the engineer and the 
survey, and also taking into conside- 
ration the estimate of the evaporation 
and seepage? 

A. — I think so, and this is the in- 
tention of our survey. 

Q. — Is it your intention to bring 
your forces up to this farm and take 
a level? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How soon would you be able 
to advise the Governor, or Legisla- 
ture, as to the feasibility of irrigat- 
ing the Harlem or Imperial lands 
from the Brazos River, directly or 
indirectly? 

A. — Now, that would depend on 
whether or not we continued our 
original idea of working up the river 
with our survey. The original idea 
was to begin on the Clemens Farm 
and take the farms as they came. 
Of course, we could skip around. For 
instance, when, the Clemens Farm 
was finished, we could transfer to any 
farm. If we continue our plan to 
come up' the valley it will be a num- 
ber of months, or perhaps a year, 
before we get to this farm, which is 
the last one in the bunch. In other 
words, in regular order, the Harlem 
Farm will be the last one surveyed. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



291 



However, I will say in that connec- 
tion that we could take any farm 
you desire us to take. 

Q. — Now, say you take the Ramsey 
Farm, for instance. The lines of 
Oyster Creek as estimated by Mr. 
Eldridge, would be about 100 miles 
from the intake at the Brazos River 
to the Ramsey Farm. Could you ap- 
proximate about what per cent, of 
water would be lost in traveling the 
100 miles after we paid for it at the 
Brazos River? 

A. — I could not, but it would be 
quite heavy. I made a computation 
of that kind in regard to the Colorado 
River when it was proposed to store 
water at Austin for river irrigation at 
Bay City, but I don't know. I am 
not able to state exactly, but I am 
under the impression very little water 
did go to Bay City, but believe I can 
say without being out of line so very 
much you would probably lose 10 per 
cent, down to the Ramsey Farm. 

Q. — That 10 per cent, would be a 
light loss. Now you advise nothing 
can be done until more engineering 
is done? 

A. — No, sir; emphatically. 

Q. — Is the land you are now sur- 
veying generally level? 

A. — I understood when we took 
the survey of that farm it was most 
difficult to drain. I understood from 
the general idea that it was the flat- 
est of all the farms, and I am very 
much elated from what I found out 
three days ago. The country re- 
ported to be the flatest I find has a 
splendid fall of three and a half feet 
per mile. I will say again I am de- 
lighted with the prospects of drain- 
ing the Clemens farm, and know 
now we can design a most efficient 
system. I think I can remove every 
raindrop off that farm. 

By Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — You mean by that all the land 
clear down to the river that has laid 
out? 

A. — I really mean all of it. There 
is some in cultivation now that is 
certainly in need of drainage, but 
even the worst can certainly be 
drained to perfection. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — What is the average eleva- 
tion? 

A. — The average elevation of 
Camp No. 1 and various points is 
26 and 28 feet above mean tide. 

Q. — Has the river ever overflowed? 

A. — Yes, sir. I understand this 
from the old residents. 



Q. — Do you know what year? 

A. — I think it was in 1909. I 
can't be authority. It is hearsay. 
I dare say in my judgment that any 
overflow the magnitude of the one 
in 1899 would certainly overflow 
that farm. 

Q. — Could that be ■ protected 
against an overflow at a reasonable 
expense? 

A. — I can't say, but with the ex- 
perience I have had on this farm I 
think it could be done quite reason- 
ably. 

Q. — You are now surveying with 
a view of preventing overflows also? 

A.— Yes, sir. My department has 
covered something like 300,000 acres 
in the Trinity, Brazos and Little 
River, to say nothing of supervising 
the work in a number of other places. 
The report of my department was re- 
ceived from the printer some ten days 
ago, and they will give you the act- 
ual cost per acre for levy reclama- 
tion in all the territories surveyed 
by this department, and from that 
report a very intelligent idea could 
be had in advance of the survey as to 
what reclamatoin by levies would 
cost on these farms. I would say, 
without studying things, that the 
protection of this whole valley 
against overflow would not exceed 
$20 per acre, and perhaps would 
not run to $10 per acre. I can not 
tell you until I get the size of the 
valleys. 

Q. — That applies to Imperial farm, 
and also the Harlem? 

A. — Yes, sir. I want to say some- 
thing in this connection. It would 
not be feasible to protect any of the 
State farms from overflows by means 
of levy building without protecting 
the entire valley in which these 
farms are situated. You under- 
stand the levy must begin and end 
on high ground, and I will state we 
have also examined this country 
here and find we can extend one 
single protecting levy from Fulshear 
to Velasco. It might be of signifi- 
cence to you to know what territory 
that would cover; about 300,000 
acres. 

Q. — Would it be practicable for the 
State to do that on its own land, un- 
less the other lands affected would 
join in? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — It ought to be one levy district 
out of the whole thing? 

A. — I am not sure that a district 
can exist in two counties. 



292 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Under the present laws it would 
have to be controlled by the county 
commissioners ? 

A. — In that case it seems to me the 
levy could extend from one district 
to the county line and immediately 
from there by the other levy district. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — If a levy, the kind which you 
mention, were constructed in this val- 
ley, would it be an expensive propo- 
sition to maintain it? 

A. — No, sir : I would think not in 
this country. The maintenance of a 
levee in Texas consists in primarily 
keeping- the levee sodded in Bermuda 
grass, and through the dry season 
have a sufficient number off stock 
grazing- on that levee. About the 
only trouble that results to levees in 
Texas is season cracks. I don't think 
here it would crack, but in some lands 
it does crack very extensively, and 
when a levee is in that condition and 
a flood comes down the river you can 
see it won't stand very well. Now, 
when a levee is put up it must abso- 
lutely be sodded with Bermuda grass. 
I rather think in this particular val- 
ley here that would be all that would 
be necessary • to keep that levee in 
g-ood repair, but in a number of other 
levees of the State, in addition to 
having- Bermuda grass on the levee, it 
is also necessary during- the dry part 
of the year to pasture a reasonable 
number of stock on that levee. Now, 
we also find some places where they 
have the county road on top of the 
levee, which absolutely prevents sea- 
son cracks, and serves the purpose I 
have just mentioned, but that requires 
a levee of somewhat larg-er size, and 
perhaps specially constructed, and it 
rather complicates the affair, because 
in the wet weather the travel on the 
levee must be abandoned. Now, dur- 
ing- the wet season mig-ht be the very 
time you needed the road the most, so 
if the maintenance of a levee is going 
to depend on a road on top of it, it 
will be a very expensive levee, and 
made in an expensive way. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
Q. — The reason you would keep it 
pastured is to have the animals tramp 
it? 

A. — The reason is, the fact that 
where a levee is sodded with Bermuda 
grass and is pastured it does not crack. 
Just why it does not crack is another 
point I am not prepared" to suggest. 

Q. — Now, in public roads ; that 



would answer the same purpose, would 
it not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson : 

Q. — What is the elevation of the 
Bamsey farm? 

A. — I don't know. The line has no1 
reached that point. 

Q. — What is the elevation of the 
Harlem farm? 

A. — I can only give you the figures 
given by the Southern Pacific Bail 
road, which we have found in our ex- 
perience to be quite accurate. Those 
figures are 29 feet, I believe. I can'1 
be sure about that. 

Q. — Do you happen to know whai 
the fall in the Brazos river is? 

A. — At points above here where w( 
have measured it, it is about a fooi 
per mile. 

Q. — Do you know the fall in Oyste] 
Creek? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you happen to know if th< 
channel in the Brazos Valley is th< 
same as it was a few years ago? 

A. — No. sir ; I cant' say offhand 
but the Brazos is one of our stream: 
that has been recorded for the las 
twenty years by the United State; 
Geological Survey. For instance, a 
Richmond, the records are publishee 
and available. 

Q. — You are familiar with the arte 
sian wells on the Bamsey farm? 

A. — I have seen them. 

Q. — Would you be willing to say i 
it was possible to irrigate any con 
siderable body of land from the well 
you observed there? 

A. — No, sir; not without some littL 
more investigation than I have givei 
it. Primarily, I would want to knov 
the nature of the water. I would wan 
to know if the water was suitable fo 
that purpose. 

Q. — Would you consider it of suffi 
cient importance to investigate tha 
question? 

A. — I will probably investigate tha 
incidental to my surveying, as th 
survey is quite extensive and it take 
in a number of those points. I 
there is no particular objection in do 
ing so, it will be very little troubl 
and no expense, if the committee de 
sires it. 



SATURDAY, MAY 24, 1913, AT 
HOUSE PLANTATION. 

My name is K. F. Cunningham; 
am manager of the House plantation 
leased by the Prison Commission. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



293 



I have 242 convicts, all white. Am 
ultivating 3640 acres, of which 1,055 
cres are in cane. I have had only 
ne year's experience in growing cane 
t Lakeside ; do not consider myself 
n expert. Last year on a Johnson 
rass field, with one rain, the yield 
as about seven tons an acre. This 
s not a profitable crop. Our pres- 
nt crop on the House plantation is 
about thirty days earlier than last 
year, and there are 155 acres of Plant 
Cane and the remainder stubble. 

The House plantation is operated 
under lease to pay $6.00 an acre for 
cane land and $5.00 per acre for the 
remainder, with an option of giving 
one-fourth of the crop if the option 
is exercised by August 1st. The own- 
ers of the plantation furnish the nec- 
essary mules and implements to work 
the land. 

The State has the right to grind the 
cane wherever the prison commission 
prefers. 

I have anywhere from eighteen 
guards down on the farm, sometimes 
not more than ten. There are a num- 
ber of men that we turn out ; I do 
not call them trusties, but they are al- 
lowed to go out and work without 
being close guarded. 

My supplies are received from Hunts- 
ville on requisition by me. The in- 
voices received state the prices, and 
grades and brands are usually indi- 
cated. The bookkeeper receives these 
supplies, and I inspect the goods per- 
sonally. I think I would detect any 
inferiority in grade. I believe the 
grade received is that ordered by the 
State and for which it pays, though 
it sometimes happens we get a few 
cans of goods or articles that we think 
not up to quality. The bookkeeper 
is appointed bj' the Commission, and 
is paid $50.00 per month. All supplies 
are weighed out by the steward, and 
I usually check it over. I also try to 
see that the supplies tally with the 
bill of fare. 

I got two men last year from the 
Imperial farm who are unfitted for 
service of any kind in the winter: 
one died and the other was sent back. 
"We also get more or less old men not 
serviceable. 

Men whose time expires while work- 
ing here are discharged from this of- 
fiiee. I usually arrange with my per- 
sonal bank in Houston to ship me the 
discharge money. I take the convict's 
receipt, and also that of the railway 
agent for the ticket. Then T col- 



lect for the ticket and other items due 
the convict from the Prison Commis- 
sion. I pay the convict in cash. I 
do not know that anyone gets any of 
the money from the convict. There 
was one instance in which a boy was 
pardoned, and I understood had em- 
ployed a bookkeeper to write letters 
for him. agreeing to pay for the ser- 
vice, who went off and said I author- 
ized that money be taken from him. 
Convicts will give orders against their 
discharge money for small things they 
want, but I know of no practice of 
borrowing money. from guards. I see 
that the convicts receive the actual 
amount due him. I do not think there 
could be- any underground system of 
speculation among officers and em- 
ployees among the convicts for their 
overtime and per diem. It may be 
that the convicts do trade among them- 
selves. I deliver their discharge, rail- 
way ticket and money together, and 
there is nothing to keep them from 
taking it all the way with them. I 
watch for gambling and have found 
none among the guards, and allow 
none among the convicts. Have dis- 
charged a number of guards for drinic- 
ing. and they understand it is my rule 
to do so. "When a guard is discharged 
I report it to the Commission, and I 
only employ a guard "who can show 
a clearance and has a good record. 

We will probably gin the cotton 
raised here on this farm. There are 
'about thirteen hundred acres, and we 
j ought to get eight hundred bales. 
I which would be a fair run for the gin. 
j The owners of the plantation furnish 
j the gin. and the Prison Commission 
furnish the labor and operate it. The 
nearest gins would be those at Har- 
lem and Imperial. If anything should 
happen that the House plantation peo- 
ple did not furnish the gin we would 
be entitled to deduct the difference 
between the cost of ginning here and 
elsewhere from the rent. The contract 
does not specifically prove this, but 
they would be compelled either to do 
this or render themselves liable for 
damages. I think my average acre- 
age for each able-bodied convict is 
from fifteen to eighteen acres. 

The better class of convicts, when re- 
leased buy tickets to their former 
homes. I can usually tell from the 
record a man has made whether he 
belongs to the class that will buy a 
ticket to El Paso or Texline. 

T have very few sick men here. It is 
hard to say whether this part of the 
State would be a desirable place for 



294 



Report and Findings of 



the penitentiary. From the standpoint 
of health this section is probably bet- 
ter than in the west, as they do not 
have as much pneumonia and typhoid ; 
judging from the condition of my 
men from the time I have been here I 
see no objection to it, and with prop- 
er drainage and ordinary precaution 
it would probably be all right. 

My system of accounting tells me 
approximately what the guards and 
convicts consume. I do not recall 
now the amount consumed of any par- 
ticular article, but my records would 
enable me to figure it out. I think 
the average cost will run about $6.00 
per month for maintaining each man. 
I do not keep a regular garden, but 
work it with the convicts. 

I feed 138 mules and horses, and al- 
lowing fifty cents a bushel for corn, 
it costs 25 cents per day per head to 
feed them. The House plantation also 
furnishes a few cows with the farm. 

I believe silos would save consider- 
able in feed. And it seems the only 
practicable manner of saving hay and 
forage in this climate. I am of the 
opinion that cane tops and short cane 
would make good ensilage. 

A little better than 20 per cent, of 
my men are third grade men. I have 
lost as much time from the punish- 
ment of these men as I have from all 
the rest in every way. 

By Mr. Tillotson : 

Q. — As a business proposition, do 
you think it best to support them in 
idleness? 

A. — There are a class of those fel- 
lows who are insane, and I don't think 
they should have any term of years, 
but should be isolated from the world, 
and put by themselves, for when they 
are released they will do some one 
some damage. Now, you take a man 
who has reached a mature age that 
won't comply with the rules of the 
penitentiary system, and has been a 
violator of the laws on the outside; 
he is bound to be crazy, and there 
should be a place built on the outside 
to take care of him. They will never 
make a success handling all classes of 
convicts until we get a law in our 
State that will handle the insane. Now, 
you take the wife murderer, for in- 
stance. The man is a lunatic. They 
ought to hang him. Now, that kind 
of man as a general rule is immoral, 
and I feel that the man who commits 
sodomy is insane. If he has done it, 
do not put him in the penitentiary, 
but put him in the asylum. Now, if 



a man is a thief he should be taken 
away. His influence should not be 
over the other men. I have them right 
here. Now, those people have no right 
to be released. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — They not only corrupt the other 
men, but decrease their efficiency? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now, a bad boy, you 
can line him up, if he has not the 
other influence. Now, in regard to the 
plow men ; you can't take anybody 
and make a good plow man. Now, my 
plow force will do just as much work 
as free labor, but the hoe men do not 
do a great deal of work. They come 
out of cities ; are barbers, painters, old 
broken down men. Some do all they 
can, but they are not the class of men 
the plow men are. 

Q. — I believe you stated the State 
has never had the proper system of 
handling the guards? 

A. — I feel that the guards should be 
handled like United States soldiers. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — While you are making a state- 
ment about the guards, do you think 
the present amount of salary suffi- 
cient? 

A. — Now, that is on the same plan of 
handling the United States soldiers ; 
they are graded ; they put in enough 
time, and are then retired. Now, the 
guard today starting out gets $35.00 
per month. He can stay here and 
serve the State thirty or forty years, 
just so long as he is useful, and he 
is then turned out. He has nothing to 
look forward to. Now, the guards in 
our business, they have got it down as 
a place to be until they get something 
better. It is not a business with a 
guard. Now, we ought to have our 
guards on a graded system, and let 
them work up until they reach a stan- 
dard, and if they serve the State thirty 
years, then I believe we ought to re- 
tire them just like a United States 
soldier. Now, in the handling of thele 
men, we have a good many men that 
under the rules I could turn in his 
time. It is not a business with him, 
because he cannot accumulate any- 
thing, but when you take that man 
out you have to take in a new man, 
and you have got to train him, and in 
handling convicts it is like other busi- 
nesses ; a man has got to be adapted 
to that kind of business, and when you 
get an efficient guard and your neigh- 
bors see it, then that day he is gone. 

Q. — How can an experienced guard, 
under your theory, increase his effi- 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



295 



ciency to the system sufficient to jus- 
tify— 

A. — In the first place an efficient 
guard will keep perfect discipline 
among- the men, and if he is capable 
to do this work, they go on and do it, 
and he knows the men, and is with 
them from one end of the year to an- 
other. He understands them, and they 
understand him, but under the pres- 
ent system we have got to change the 
guards very often, and they never get 
acquainted, and somebody else has of- 
fered him a better position, and then 
you have to go and pick up another 
new man. 

Mr. Brahan states : I think the sal- 
ary ought to start at $25.00 and run 
to $40.00 or $50.00, according to his 
efficiency. They present the idea they 
have no chance for promotion. They 
feel that their services don't amount 
to much in the way of promotion. 
Now, you take a man like Mr. Thomas. 
He never saw a convict, and never 
saw a large body of men, until he came 
to the Clemens farm. He thinks he 
is just as competent to handle these 
men as a man who has worked here al- 
ways. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
Brahan : 

Q. — In selecting your guards, to what 
extent do politics enter into it? Do 
you take into consideration how he 
votes, or as to his capability? 

A. — I select them according to their 
merits. Of course, Mr. Titt 7 e and Mr. 
Cabell had friends when they came 
into the service, and Mr. Cunningham 
was among the number Mr. Cabell rec- 
ommended, and he was placed in 
charge and made good. There were 
several others who entered and had to 
leave the service. They are not adapt- 
ed to the business. 

Q. — Do you take into consideration 
his knowledge of handling men and his 
agricultural abilities? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — To what extent has political po- 
sition interfered with the management 
of the penitentiary system? 

A. — It has not interfered a particle 
with our administration, for the Gov- 
ernor told us to get rid of the men 
who did not suit us. He told us to dis- 
charge them, or get rid of any men, 
clerks or guards he recommended if 
they did not make good. 



SATURDAY, MAY 24, 1913, AT 
HOUSE PLANTATION. 

Testimonv bv Dr. T. H. Hall. 



By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
Q. — Please give your full name to 
the stenographer. 
A.— Dr. T. H. Hall. 
Q. — What position do you hold in 
the penitentiary system? 
A. — I am chaplain. 
Q. — You visit all these farms? 
A. — Yes. sir. 

Q. — You hold services at the farms 
on Sunday? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you hold services sometimes 
during the week? 

A. — Yes, sir ; whenever it is conven- 
ient without disturbing the work. 

Q. — Are you organizing, or trying to 
organize, the convicts in any way into 
some religious organization? 

A. — I have got my work very well 
organized. We have twenty-seven 
members that go regularly, and we 
have a good Sabbath school. 

Q. — What per cent of the convicts 
take kindly to religious instruction? 

A. — It is safe to say the larger por- 
tion take kindly to it. 

Q. — Do you think it has a good moral 
effect? 

A- — I think so. It is one of the mostr 
difficult propositions I have ever han~ 
died as a minister in my life, but I 
have a church in nearly all the camps, 
besides the schools and the literature. 
And where there is a convict preacher 
I put him in charge to conduct ser- 
vices in my absence. 

Q. — How do you find the work with 
the incorrigibles? 

A. — Pretty tough. I contend it is 
one of the greatest difficulties. At the 
incorrigible camp last year I had eight 
or ten, probably fifteen, members of 
the church. Well, they were moved, 
changed about from one camp to an- 
other, and since that time there are 
only three that I can get that will 
join the Camp Fraternity. We regu- 
late it and govern it pretty much as 
you would a church. The Sabbath 
school is very good, and some con- 
vict preachers are good men and 
preach good sermons. 

Q. — Where do you make your head- 
quarters? 
A.— Here. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 
Q- — About how often are you at 
these other farms? 

A — About once a month. Now, two 



296 



Report and Findings of 



or three months ago they threw me 
off, and I have never caught up yet. 

Q- — You try to visit the camps once 
a month? 

A. — Yes, sir. I take this position, 
Governor : while I believe there are 
some men as virtually damned as they 
will ever be, not because God has or- 
dered it, but because they will not 
have it, yet Captain Addison told me 
there was a good deal of good done, 
and the men are getting much bet- 
ter. 

Q. — When you visit these places, how 
long do you stay? 

A. — A day or a half day. Sometimes 
I preach at noon if it does not inter- 
fere with the farm work. If I preach 
at noon I go to the Harlem, and then 
on down to the Imperial farm. I 
preach from eighteen to twenty-one 
times a month. The traveling and the 
work is very hard. Now, another dif- 
ficulty to the preacher is, I will have 
a head man in the Sunday school, and 
presently here comes a pardon, and 1 
have to give him up. Now, there was 
a model negro who gave as good re- 
ports during the month as I have ever 
seen in the district conference in the 
State of Texas, and in his Sunday 
school work he was a model. 

Q.— Do you get any material assist- 
ance from the guards or employees of 
the system? 

A. — It is hard for a stream where 
its fountain is not pure to issue any- 
thing except corrupt waters. We do 
need the power of God among our offi- 
cers worse than any place I ever saw 
in my life. 

Q. — You don't get much help from 
the guards? 

A. — They are very courteous. 

Q. — As a rule, do they come to see or 
hear you? 

A. — Some do, and some do not. As a 
rule they come in. 

Q. — Do you hear of anything the 
guards do to counteract your work? 
Do they speak disparagingly of your 
work? 

A. — I don't hear anything but, "You 
can't do anything with a negro." That 
is enough. I don't want to hear any 
more. I was raised among negroes, 
and I am in sympathy with the negro 
race. 

Q. — You don't, in fact, as a rule, re- 
ceive the support and sympathy of the 
guards in the work? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — As a rule, they don't attend ser- 
vices? 

A. — No, sir. 



Q. — And some speak disparagingly 
of your work? 

A. — Yes, sir; with some honorable 
exceptions. 

Q. — Have you noticed any intoxica- 
tion on the part of the guards? 

A. — Not a great deal. I don't search 
it out. It is not my province to do it. 
I have my work well organized, and it 
is moving along just as well as it could 
under the present conditions, and I am 
just as conscientious as I can be, and 
I believe the Lord is blessing me and 
my labors. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Do you ever take any other min- 
isters with you to visit the prison? 

A. — I invite them. 

Q. — Do they frequently accept those 
invitations? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do many volunteer to come? 

A. — No, sir. Sometimes the preachers 
on the outside want to come, but they 
generally want to take up collections, 
and that is against the rules. 

Q. — Do any volunteer to come for 
the good they can do? 

A. — They are like angels' visits, few 
arid far between. 

Q. — But many would come if they 
could take up a collection? 

A. — I did not say that. It was the 
negro preachers who wanted the col- 
lections. I tell you what is the fact ; 
I believe these criminals ought to be 
sent to prison for reformation, and 
not to make money out of them, and 
I believe the principal effort of the 
State should be to educate them, and 
they ought to have the strong arm of 
the law to help them. We have not 
the means to purchase such books as 
we need. They want Bibles worse 
than anything else. If I was a rich 
man today and had a hundred thous- 
and dollars, I would invest it in Bibles 
and give them to prisoners. I receive 
a great influx of magazines and pa- 
pers, and now and then I find some- 
times three or four or five Bibles. They 
are hungry for them ; begging for Bi- 
bles. I say there is hope for any man 
begging for a Bible. 

Q. — The white men begging for Bi- 
bles? 

A. — Yes, sir; both. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson : 

Q. — Don't you think from the stand- 
point of the good that is possible to 
be done by the State it would be more 
direct benefit to the prisoners to pur- 
chase a few $2.50 Bibles than $250.00 
mules? 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



29' 



A. — Yes, sir. If you could only go 
around and see these people. They 
ay : "Doctor, I can read a little. 
Please get me a Bible." If I had it 
[ would give it to them as cheerfully 
as I would my dinner. Now, this is a 
ery pertinent question, but I would be 
glad if you would agitate it. We don't 
want expensive books, because they 
have nothing but a little box to keep 
a book in. and in moving around it 
is liable to be lost, and a cheap one 
will do just as good. Now. someone 
sent me three copies of the Gospel of 
John. 

Q. — What you need at the beginning 
is Testaments? 

A. — Yes, sir ; we do. 
Q. — Are you neglecting the old 
Bible any? 

A. — If you drop that out you have 
no New Testament. 

Q. — I suppose the class of people you 
have to deal with would appreciate the 
New Testament more? 

A. — Now. the way I started is by 
keeping up this consecutive reading, 
and I think men should do it from first 
to last. 

Q. — Doctor, do you keep any record 
of your church membership? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.— And every man who has been 
connected? 

A. — Yes, sir ; everything. 

Q. — Do you keep any record of the 
behavior of the men? 

A. — Yes. sir. Last Sunday I was at 
an incorrigible camp, and I put my 
negro driver up to preach. I was not 
able to preach, and while he was 
preaching there came up in the back 
a tremendous uproar. It was in the 
third bunk, I think, and I went up 
there and quieted it. This is on my 
books and goes to headquarters. I 
think we should let them know the 
gospel of Jesus Christ is worthy of 
respect, and anybody who reads the 
Bible knows it will not pay to break 
Sunday, and it is only a matter of 
only a very few years until we all 
go the same way. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy : 

Q. — Have you ever asked for Bibles 
to be furnished? 

A. — No. sir : I have not. I have 
asked for school books, but there has 
been some mismanagement some way, 
and we have failed to get them, and I 
furnished $30.00 or $40.00 worth of 
material myself. 

Q. — T believe that the Christian 
work and the industrial work would 



go well together. I think the men 
would become more useful in their 
industries, and that they would become 
more largely disciplined, and I think 
these troublesome elements would be 
very materially reduced. 

A. — I think so too. 

Q. — Do you think the introduction 
of the Bible among the convicts would 
be acceptable to them? 

A. — Yes. sir. Now on whom shall 
1 make this requisition? 

Q. — With your headquarters. 

A. — If the Bible can do good in 
China and Japan and India and Africa, 
and even the central portion of it. 
then whv should it fail in our prison? 

By Mr. L. Tillotson : 

Q. — What proportion of the men who 
are made trusties are men of religious 
conviction? 

A. — When they get to be a trusty, I 
ihave just about lost them. They say: 
"Doctor, I could not go to hear you 
preach, as my duties on the outside 
prevented me from coming." I should 
think religious services should be first. 
I have had the tambourine turned loose 
on me when sometimes right in the 
very point I wanted to clinch things 
in my sermon. 

Q. — Have you ever endeavored to as- 
certain the proportion of the guard 
force who are men willing to enter into 
the spirit of your services? 

A. — The percentage is very small 
from what I can see. I don't con- 
sider I have any authority over the 
guards further than socially. They 
are outside men. 

Q. What proportion of the convicts 
are able to read and write? 

A. — Most of them are, but I don't 
know the statistics. 

By Mr. H. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — What denomination are you? 

A. — Methodist. I joined the Meth- 
odist church when I vras twelve years 
old : went to preaching when I was 
twenty. Gentlemen. I am not a sec- 
tarian. There are good people in all 
churches. T don't preach sectarian- 
i 

Q. — What age man are you? 

A. — What would you guess? 

Q. — About forty-two. 

A. — Some guess me at fifty-five and 
some at sixty. I volunteered in the 
Confederate Army in '61, and stayed 
♦lure three months, and was honorably 
discharged. I will be seventy-three 
years old if I live to see November. 

Q. — I missed my guess thirty-one 
years, bul was misled by your appear- 



298 



Eeport and Findings of 



ance. Now I will say that the fact 
that yon have reached that mature age 
will add weight to your statement. 



SATURDAY, MAY 24, 1913, AT RAM- 
SEY FARM. 

Testimony of J. N. South. 
Mght Session. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Will you give your name to the 
Secretary ? 

A.— J. N. South. 

Q. — What position do you hold with 
the Prison System? 

A. — Manager. 

Q. — You are manager of the Ram- 
sey Farm. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many acres have you in 
cultivation? 

A. — 5,669 acres ; approximately that. 

Q. — Is that all the Ramsey Farm, 
or does it include leased land? 

A. — Includes the leased land. 

Q. — How much is leased? 

A. — 1,199 acres in the Bassett Blake- 
ly and 1,170 in the Masterson & Smith 
place, and 1,200 acres of hay land. 

Q. — What hay land is this? 

A. — That is all prairie land, and 
known as the Cannon place, a leased 
place. 

Q. — Is any of that in cultivation? 

A. — All hay land. 

Q. — How does the State lease this 
land? 

A. — $600 the first year ; $700 the sec 
ond year, and $800 the third year. 

Q. — Do you cut hay off of it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How long have you been here in 
charge of this farm? 

A.— Since the 20th of February, 1911. 

Q.- — Nearly two years? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — This hay land — would you tell 
the committee about how much hay 
we get off the land? 

A. — About one ton per acre. It will 
possibly run a little over that, but it 
will average a ton for the State. 

Q. — Do you think that a good lease? 

A. — I think so. It is the best we 
can do in this country. 

Q. — How much do you have in cane? 

A. — 1,150 acres. 

Q. — Do you consider that a profitable 
crop for the State? 

A. — No. sir. 



Q. — About what is your yield per 
acre? 

A. — It will average about eighteen 
tons to the acre. 

Q. — Is it an expensive crop to make? 

A. — It is very expensive to take care 
of, and comes in at a bad time of the 
year to take off a crop. 

Q. — How is the cane crop on mules? 

A. — It is one of the hardest crops 
there is on mules. 

Q. — Your cane mules are expensive 
mules, are they not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — They cost the State about $250 
apiece? 

A. — Yes, sir ; I judge so ; something 
like that. 

Q. — What effect does cultivating cane 
have on these mules? 

A. — Usually the life of a cane mule 
is about three years? 

Q. — The depreciation then in the 
mule during the three years would 
be quite considerable? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How much would they decrease 
in value during the three years? 

A. — I would say at least 75 per cent. 

Q. — That enters very largely into the 
cost of making the cane crop? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many acres can you culti- 
vate to the mule? 

A. — About ten acres. 

Q. — In the three years, the cultiva- 
tion of ten acres would depreciate the 
value of one mule 75 per cent? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Where do we grind the cane that 
grows on this place? 

A. — Last year, we ground it at the 
House plantation. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
how the cane was sold? 

A. — No, sir ; I do not. That does 
not come under my supervision. 

Q. — You simply raise it and deliver 
it to the House plantation? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many acres have you in 
potatoes ? 

A. — About four hundred. 

Q. — Have you figured out what the 
cost per acre is to plant potatoes, cost 
of seed, and gathering the crop? 

A. — This year I would think it cost 
around $30 per acre, including sacks. 

Q. — About how much seed do you 
plant to the acre? 

A. — Twelve and one-half bushels. 

Q. — How much did they cost this 
year? 

A.— $1.35 to $1.50. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



299 



Q. — In looking- over the field of po- 
tatoes today, what would be your esti- 
mate yield per acre this year? 

A.— About fifty bushels. 

Q. — What arrangements have you 
for selling these potatoes? 

A. — T don't know. I understand 
Spencer & Mullens assist us and handle 
them at cost. 

Q. — How are they going to handle 
the crop? Do they buy potatoes, or 
handle on commission? 

Mr. Brahan states : I will state we 
bought the two cars of seed potatoes 
from Spencer & Mullens ; they being 
the most experienced men in Texas. 
We consider them the best men in the 
State to handle them, and we get them 
to handle them for us. They charge 
us about $10 per car for handling*. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Ml-. 
Brahan : 

Q. — They do not take them at a 
fixed price? 

A. — They tell us what they are 
selling every day. At the Harlem 
place Mr. Blakely did not grade his 
as well as Mr. Smith did. 

Q. — He handled them as a broker? 

A. — Yes. sir. 

Q. — But at no o-uaranteed price? 

A.— No. sir. 

Senator Willacy resumes the inter- 
rogation of Captain South : 

Q. — Could you tell the committee 
what they brought last year? 

A. — They ran around $1 per bushel 
last year. 

Q. — As far as we have advanced in 
the season, have you any idea what 
price they will run this year? 

A. — T have an idea the price will go 
down to 75 cents in a few weeks. 

Q. — The potatoes will be lower than 
last year? 

A. — Yes. sir : T think so. I had a 
letter yesterday stating they had gone 
to $1 uow. 

Q. — Does that mean $1 here or in 
the market? 

A. — $1, here. 

Q. — T)o vou think they will go low- 
er? 

A. — Yes. sir. 

Q. — How did vou handle the cotton 
from this farm last year? 

A. — That was -hipped to Cleveland. 
T think. 

Q. — Where did you gin it? 

A. — Here, on the State farm. 

Q. — Tn 1911 did you gin the cotton 
here? 

A. Yes. sir. 



Q. — Did you handle your cotton in 
1911 to advantage? 

A. — Xo. sir ; we did not get it ginned 
in time, and lost practically all the 
seed. 

Q. — Was that caused by it not be- 
ing ginned in time? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You had picked the cotton in 
time, however? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Was any of iLz seed cotton lost 
before vou got to gin it? 

A. — No, sir ; we ginned it all. 

Q. — The seed cotton was not in- 
jured? 

A. — Yes. sir : at least one-half. 

Q. — How is the acreage compared as 
to 1911 and 1912? 

A. — About the same acreage. 

Q. — Why was the gin not ready to 
gin the cotton of 1911 in time? 

A. — We did not have the gin put 
i;p in time. 

Q. — "Where had the cotton from this 
plantation been sent before that to be 
ginned? 

A. — T could not tell you. I was not 
here. 

Q. — Where was the nearest gin to the 
"Ramsey place? 

A. — The Masterson gin, about two 
and a half miles above here. 

Q. — Could not they have ginned and 
bandied our cotton in 1911? 

A. — I don't think they could. In 
1911 the cotton was very wet, and the 
hid is were very rotten, and I advised 
that we hold our cotton until our gin 
was ready. 

Q. — Did they have that trouble with 
the other cotton in this vicinity? 

A. — Yes. sir. 

Q. — The cotton seed, after you gin- 
ned it. what did you do with that? 

A. — Used it for fertilizer. 

Q. — Was any piled up so water could 
hurt it? 

A. — Yes, sir ; but that did not hurt 
it much. 

A. — I notice while you had the same 
acreage in 1911, the same as in 1912. 
the sale of the cotton for 1911 brought 
$9,943.10 and the sale of the cotton 
seed brought only $370. 

\. 1 did not know we sold any at 
all that year. I thought we lost them 
all. 

Q. — And in 191:2 oil the same acreage 
the proceeds from the sale of the cot- 
ton was $26,561.31 and the cotton seed 
(2,491.83. That represents a dif- 
ference of approximately $18,000 of 
the receipts of the cotton in the fall 



300 



Report and Findings of 



of 1912 as against the year 1911. Now 
what was the yield of 1911 as com- 
pared with 1912? 

A. — I think we had a little better 
yield in 1911, taken as a whole. 

Q. — And the price? 

A. — I don't remember. Now, in 1911, 
I don't think the price was over four 
or five cents for the whole crop. 

Q. — Was that due largely to the fact 
you had no gin to gin it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would it not have paid to have 
shipped it to some other gin to have 
ginned it? 

A. — Yes, sir ; probably so. 

Q. — I notice an item on the 1912 
audit, clearing land, ditching, etc., 
$55,585.50. Where was that clearing 
and ditching done? 

A. — It was done on the Eamsey 
Farm. 

Q. — About how many acres did 
you clear? 

A. — Between fourteen and fifteen 
hundred acres. 

Q. — Was that all on the Ramsey 
place? 

A. — Yes, sir. We cleared land on the 
Blakely place, too. 

Q. — Was that on leased land? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Was that charged to the Blakely 
place? 

A. — No : we get the use of the land 
two years for clearing it. 

Q. — Can you tell the committee what 
we pay for the use of that land? 

A. — It is left to the oirtion of the 
Commission the first of August. 

Mr. Brahan states : We pay $4 per 
acre for the use of the land, or on° 
fifth of the crop, and if a storm or 
overflow comes we have the right to 
take advantage of our option, and pay 
for the land either way. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
Brahan : 

Q. — In consideration of the clearing 
of the 400 acres ; what does the State 
get? 

A. — Two years rent free. 

Senator Willacy resumes the inter- 
rogation of Captain South : 

Q. — WTiat does it cost to clear the 
land? 

A. — I should say, cutting that brush, 
about $15 per acre. 

Q. — And we get the use of it two 
years for the clearing? 

A.-— Yes, sir. 

Q. — It actually costs the State aboir; 
$15 to clear it? 

A. — Yes. sir. 



Q. — Did you clear any other leased 
lands? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Put in any ditches? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Was any ditching done on it in 
1911? . 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Any roads built through it? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — I notice some new improvements 
on the Basset Blakely place. At whose 
expense was this? 

A. — At Mr. Blakely's expense. 

Q.- — Did the State contribute any 
part of it? 

A. — Not that I know of. 

Q. — Did they contribute the labor 
of any of the convicts? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q— Who bored that well? 

A.— The State. 

Q. — Was that bored at the State's 
expense? 

A. — I think not ; I don't know. 

Mr. Brahan states : The well was to 
be charged to Mr. Blakely. Mr. Blake- 
ly was to furnish us a well of pure 
drinking water there. I think we did 
right considering what we got. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
Brahan : 

Q. — How long does that lease run 
yet? 

A. — Five years. 

A. — At $4 per acre? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — With option of paying . one-fifth 
of the crop during the period of five 
years? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q— What did that well cost? 

A. — I could not say; the books 
here will show. 

Q. — There is no charge against Mr. 
Blakely yet? 

A.— Not yet. 

Senator Willacv interrogates Mr. 
South : 

Q. — Now, you have other leased tracts 
around here. Have any improvements 
been put on that? 

A. — We took over the Masterson 
place this year. We did some ditching 
and we built one bridge. 

Q. — About what was the cost of that 
bridge? 

A.— About $200. 

Q. — You think the State could afford 
to pay $200 for a bridge in order to 
handle the potatoes from the field? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How long does that lease run? 

A. — Three years. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



301 



Q. — The State is doing some repair 
work on this railroad down here with 
its convicts. Will you please state 
to the Committee how it happens the 
State is doing 1 that work? 

A. — They agreed to furnish the la- 
bor to get that switch. It would save 
a haul of about three miles to another 
switch. 

Q. — How much labor does that call 
for? 

A. — It took a day with ten men. 

Q. — Now, I notice down at the Bas- 
sett Blakely place that they are either 
working or preparing to put that 
track in order. 

A. — We are doing that in order to 
avoid hauling another three miles. 

Q. — What work are you doing on 
that line — what is the length of the 
line? 

A. — About a mile and one-half. 

Q. — You are furnishing the labor? 

A. — Yes, sir, and he is furnishing 
the ties. 

Q. — How much labor does that 
amount to? 

A. — At least $100, at the least cal- 
culation. 

Q. — Is that to accommodate the po- 
tatoes grown there? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think the State will save 
as much as the cost of improvements? 

A. — I think more — a great deal more 
on account of the long haul of the 
potatoes, and then we also need the 
teams. We have not got the teams 
to spare in making this long haul. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — I notice the right of way is 
cleared of weeds through a part of the 
farm, and on other parts of the Sugar- 
land road there seems to be no work 
done. Is the State doing that? 

A. — Yes, sir ; I did that on wet days, 
when I could do nothing else, to mak»j 
the plantation look better. 

Q. — Have you cut the weeds on 
all the plantation? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — About what distance on the 
Sugar Land Railroad? 

A. — About one and a half miles, 
and from here down to Otey. We 
done that in order put the ties in. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — I notice in the audit of 1911, 
your maintenance and clothing 
amounted to $29,647. while your con- 
vict labor amounted to $29,010, and in 
1912 your maintenance and clothing 
amounted to $86,286 and your convict 
labor amounted to $63,492. a differ- 
ence of practically thirty-three ancl rv 



third per cent. Can you state to the 
committee why it is the maintenance 
and clothing for 1912 run so much 
Ilia her than in 1911? 

A.- -I cannot say. We had no hook- 
keeper here for 1911 and 1912. 

(Mr. E. L. Bramlett brings over 
and exhibits book to Senator Willacy 
which were used during the years 1911 
and 1912.) 

Q. — This was simply an estimate? 

A. — Yes, sir ; so far as I know. They 
can furnish you that data from the 
Commissioners' office. We have not 
got it here. 

Q. — Coming back to the item of 
clearing land, ditching, etc., $55,- 
585.50 during 1912, all that clear- 
ing on the Blakely place at $15 
per acre, on which we received the 
rent for two years, is there arrange- 
ment on that piece of land under lease 
that there shall be no charge for two 
years? 

Mr. Brahan states : Yes, sir ; the 
contract shows it. 

Q. — That will account for $6,000 of 
this expense. How many acres did 
you clear on the State's land? 

A. — For the year 1912? 

Q. — Yes, sir. 

A. — About 900 acres, as near as I 
can g-et at it. 

Q. — What did it cost under the pres- 
ent law to clear this land? 

A. — About $50 per acre under the 
present law. 

Q. — Do you mean it has cost the 
State $50,000, not including the charge 
for convict labor? 

A. — Yes, sir ; including the convict 
labor. 

Q. — What is land worth in this vi- 
cinity? 

A. — It runs from $25 to $100 per 
acre. This open land I should think 
is worth $75 per acre. 

Q. — What is brush land sold at? 
A. — $25. 

Q. — Do you know of anything sold 
cheaper? 

A. — No. sir ; not that I know of. 

Q. — Are lands lying immediately ad- 
joing the State lands held at a higher 
price than lands more distant from 
the State lands? 

A. — No. sir ; I think not. 

Q. — The timber lands are about $25 
per acre? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
Rrahan : 

Q. — Mr. Brahan. we have an option 
on this Bassett Blakely place, have 
we not? 



302 



Report and Findings of 



A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — At what price? 

A. — $40 per acre. 

Q. — How many acres in this tract? 
A. — Twenty-eight hundred. 

Q. — How many acres in cultivation? 

A. — About fourteen hundred. 

Q.— About one-half of it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — We also have an option on the 
Masterson land? 

A. — Yes, sir; at $35 per acre. 

Q. — How many acres? 

A. — Thirty-eight hundred. 

Q. — How many acres in cultivation? 

A. — Between eleven and twelve hun- 
dred acres, and good improvements 
on it. 

Q. — Does the option on the Basset 
Blakeley Farm include improvements? 

A. — Yes, sir ; no extra charge for 
that, and I will state that on the Mas- 
terson place, he sold off 1,000 acres 
several years ago, and another man 
bought this 1,000 acres of land — part 
of the place we have leased — at $65 
cash per acre. 

Q. — Have they cultivated that land? 

A. — Part of it. 

Q. — How long ago was that? 

A. — This spring. About five months 
after we got the option from Mr. Mas- 
terson. 

Senator Willacy resumes the inter- 
rogation of Captain South: 

Q. — You are familiar with this sec- 
tion, are you not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What has been the history of 
the cane crop in this section? 

A. — It has not been profitable. The 
best evidence I know of, is that all 
th" men who have been engaged in 
it have gone "busted." The mills up 
the creek have all gone to pieces, 
and I think this is good evidence. 

Q. — Do you know of any general 
practice on the part of these people 
who have made failures raising cane 
to sell to the State? 

A. — No, sir ; I don't know. 

Q. — The cane business has not been 
profitable in this section? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What is your opinion about the 
advisability of the State continuing 
in the cane raising industry? 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — Do you think it advisable for 
the State to continue in the cane in- 
dustry? 

A. — No, sir ; I don't think so. While 
they have two fine mills and I don't 
know what they would do with them, 



yet I don't think it would pay. I 
don't think there is anything in it. 

Q. — Is it the general impression that 
the grinding of cane is more profita- 
ble than the raising of cane? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — It is generally a sure profit in 
grinding it? 

A. — Yes, sir ; the money is made b\ 
the man owning the mill. 

Q. — When these cane grinders con- 
tract with the State at certain prices 
per ton, are there any elements or 
contingencies that affect the price 
agreed upon? 

A. — No, sir ; not that I know of, un- 
less it is for the fodder in the cane. 

Q. — How would you advise the State 
as to the amount of acreage to be 
planted in cane, and for what pur- 
pose? Would you advise them to raise 
it for sugar or syrup? 

A. — I would advise them to raise 
about 100 acres, and make tiie syrup 
for the system — the penitentiary sys- 
tem. 

Q. — You would not go beyond that? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What does it cost to plant an 
acre in new cane? 

A. — About $25. 

Q. — Do you mean it costs that for 
seed, or seed and labor? 

A. — For planting it. 

Q. — And the life of cane is how 
much? 

A.-— About three good crops. The 
fourth crop is not of much value. 

Q. — And the average yield is about 
how many tons? 

A. — About eighteen. The average 
3'ield is about eighteen, but I have 
made forty tons on this place. 

Q. — You have not made it in the 
last two years? 

A.— I made it in 1911. 

Q. — What I mean, is the average. 

A. — About eighteen tons, averaging 
it all. 

Mr. Brahan states : I think the 
average on this place is about 25 tons, 
but in 1912, don't think it averaged 
15 tons. 

Q. — Was 1911 the year of the freeze? 

A.— Yes, sir. 

Q. — Even if we had had no freeze, 
could the State have . handled it prof' 
itably? 

A. — No, sir; I think not. After the 
freeze it set in to raining, and we 
could not have got it out. 

Q. — It is hazardous, anyway? 

A- -Yes, sir. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



303 






Q. — It cost $25 per acre to plant 
an acre in cane? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — It is only profitable, if profitable 
at all, for three years? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — The fourth year cane is not 
good? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is it expensive per acre per an- 
num to cultivate cane? 

A. — No, sir; no more than cotton. 

Q. — But it is very hard on mules? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And one mule will cultivate ten 
acres ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many acres will one con- 
vict cultivate? 

A. — About five. 

Q. — That would be a fair average? 

A. — Yes, sir. One convict can culti* 
vate 20 acres, but the way they work 
now, it is only about five. 

Q. — And during- that period of three 
years the value of a mule will de- 
crease 75 per cent? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Dr. Castellow states : I don't think 
they will decrease that much. It de- 
pends on the man who works him. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Dr. 
Castellow : 

Q. — Are jow experienced in cane 
growing 1 ? 

A. — No, sir; but I have been on the 
farm five years, and I have been 
watching the mules closely, and have 
charge of them. 

Senator Willacy resumes interroga- 
tion of Captain South : 

Q. — But all in all, it is a very ex- 
pensive crop to raise? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How about this Ramsey place 
in reference to overflow? 

A. — All this country in here is very 
low, but we have had only one over- 
flow, and that was in 1899. We have 
had several partial overflows. We 
need ten miles of ditching here right 
now the worst kind. 

Q. — How has the rainfall been here 
the last few years? 

A. — It has been very scarce. 

Q. — Not enough to make cane or 
corn? 

A. — Last year we had a drought of 
five months. 

Q. — I notice you have a patch of cu- 
cumbers that look very fine. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you undertaken to raise 
cucumbers before? 



A. — We tried last year, but did not 
get anything out of them. 

Q. — What was the reason for that? 

A. — They got in too late. 

Q. — How do you expect to dispose 
of these? 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — You had in how many acres? 

A. — About fifteen acres. 

Mr. Brahan states : . A cucumber 
crop is practically no expense, and if 
you hit it right there is a great deal 
of money in it, but if you hit it at 
the wrong time there is no money in 
them. We have to take a chance on 
that. 

Senator Willacy Interrogates Mr. 
Brahan : 

Q. — Do you mean to pickle the cu- 
cumbers here yourself? 

A. — We pickle a few. We planted 
fifteen acres, and if we hit the market 
right we will run it into your cante- 
loupe and onion prices. (Mr. Brahan 
has reference to conversation held by 
committee with Mr. Thomas Finty in 
regard to canteloupes and onions) and 
it is not like a potato crop, as the ex- 
pense amounts to nothing. 

Senator Willacy resumes interroga- 
tion of Captain South : 

Q. — How many pounds of seed do 
you put to the acre? 

A. — About two to two and a half 
pounds. About seventy-five cents 
worth. 

Mr. Brahan states : They cost about 
85 cents to $1.20 per pound. 

Q. — What system have you for re- 
ceiving supplies and clothing for this 
farm? 

A. — We make requisition on the 
Commission. 

Q. — On groceries and clothing? 

A. — Practically everything. 

Q. — When you send in requisition, do 
you state the quantity you want? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you call for the grade of 
goods, or do the commission attend 
to that? 

A. — It is up to them. 

Q. — What system have you for re- 
ceiving these supplies? 

A. — The head steward here checks 
those supplies up. 

Q. — When those supplies are re 
oeived, you receive invoices? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Stating quantity? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Stating price? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Stating grade? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



304 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Grade and quality? 

A. — Yes, sir; the flour does, I know. 
I don't know of any other. 

Q. — Have you any way of checking 
up, in addition to the quantity, that 
the supplies are received as the in- 
voice shows, as to quality? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You check it up to see if the 
quality is what the State had bought? 

Mr. E. L. Bramlett states: As a 
rule they don't state quality. They 
just give the commercial name. In 
flour and such things as that, I no- 
tice the grade, and if it does not come 
up to the grade ordered, I notify the 
Commissioners, and they take it up 
later. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
Bramlett : 

Q. — What position do you hold here? 

A. — Bookkeeper and general stew- 
ard. 

Senator Jno. G. Willacy resumes in- 
terrogation of Captain Smith: 

Q. — The reason I am asking this 
question is, for instance, we have in 
1912 maintenance supplies, $69,937.43, 
and of clothing $16,282.63. amounting 
to about $86,000. Now, if the State 
has paid a price for a certain grade 
and it comes to them a less grade, 
you can then see the State has been 
badly treated. Now, I notice in 1912 
an item of crop expense, $7,955.62. 
What does that include? 

A. — I don't remember. 

Q. — Can the bookkeeper tell you? 

Mr. Bramlett states : It is being 
carried on the books as general op- 
erating expenses. I would think it 
would be the cost of seed, and small 
tools and implements. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
Bramlett : 

Q. — The tools and implements are 
charged separately. 

A. — That is the big tools, but hoes 
and axes and small tools are not 
charged in the implement account. 

Senator Willac}^ resumes the inter- 
rogation of Captain South: 

Q. — How are these convicts on hoes 
and axes? 

A. — They are very destructive on 
them? 

Q. — Are they any different now than 
before the new law went into effect? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is the reason for that? 

A. — It is the abolishing of the bat. 

Q. — What do you think about the 
10 cents per diem paid to convicts? 



A. — 1 don't believe in it. I don't 
believe in placing a premium on time. 

Q. — How does it affect your labor? 

A. — I can't tell any difference. It 
is no encouragement to convicts. 

Q. — What effect does it have on con- 
victs when you place then in stripes? 

A. — None. Some of the negroes are 
proud of them. 

Q. — You think that is a mistake? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Which do you think is the most 
cruel punishment; the chain or the 
strap. 

A. — I think the chains are. 

Q. — Which has the best effect as to 
the discipline of the convict? 

A. — The bat, I think, is the best 
friend the convict ever had. 

Q. — The knowledge that the bat can 
be used will keep them from getting 
into trouble? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Although the chain is more 
cruel, you think they do not object 
to that as much as the bat? 

A. — No, sir ; it does not have the ef- 
fect. 

Q. — Do you ever hear of gambling 
going on among the guards? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Any drunkenness on the part of 
the guards or convicts? 

A. — Very seldom, but sometimes 
there is. I have had two or three the 
past 12 months. They were guards 
and I discharged them. 

Q. — You don't permit drunkenness 
on the plantation at all? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Would you mind telling the 
committee, Mr. South, to what extent, 
if any, politics enter into the manage- 
ment of these farms? 

A. — Yes, sir ; I think some. 

Q. — Do you find it injurious to the 
operation of the place? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are employees sometimes se- 
lected with reference to their political 
affiliation instead of merit? 

A. — I think so to a certain extent. 

Q. — Do you think that ought to be 
abolished ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You think it ought to be out of 
politics ? 

A.— Yes, sir. The penitentiary ought 
to be divorced from politics entirely. 

Q.— Are there any suggestions you 
would like to make, but before you 
answer, I would like to say: I don't 
think any member of this committee 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



307 



A. — Yes, sir ; equally as good. 
Q. — Is the average yield of cane as 
good here as up there? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think better. Of 
course it would not be if that land 
was as fresh as this. 

Q. — What would be your judgment 
of the relative value of the Eamsey 
farm as compared with the lands own- 
ed by the State further up? 

A. — I consider this now the best 
property the State has got. 

Q. — Have you ever worked the 
Clements farm? 

A. — No, sir ; I have never been on 
it, but I understand from a great 
many of the old farmers it is a very 
poor place. 

Q. — From your experience as a far- 
mer in the Brazos valley, would you 
be willing to say the lands nearer 
the Gulf than the Eamsey farm are 
likely to be as good agricultural lands 
as this farm? 

A. — No, sir. There is one place now, 
the Retrieve plantation, I think is a 
very fine body of land. I have heard 
a great many old farmers say that 
was the best body of land in Brazoria 
County. 
By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 
Q. — Who owns that land? 
A.— Mr. Trammell. 
By Mr. Tillotson: 
Q. — How much live stock have you 
on this farm; that is, cattle and all 
work stock? 

A. — The cattle is something we have 
not been able to get at for a long 
time. They were put in the woods, 
and a lot of them have died. 

Q. — Do your books show how many 
were put in there? 

A. — Yes, sir. Now there are 282 
head of mules, 72 horses and 72 head 
of oxen, a total of 426 head. 

Q. — How much do you estimate it 
costs you to maintain the work stock 
per head per day? 

A. — About thirty cents ; the way 
feed is now. 

Q. — Have you thought of any way in 
which the cost to maintain your teams 
may be reduced? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think if each of 
these camps had a 100 or 200 ton silo. 
I have been informed by several men 
we could put them up for about $1.80 
per ton. 

Q. — Have you had any experience in 
crushing your feed as against the 
feeding of the grain in the ear? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you good results? 
A. — Yes, sir; I think so. It is 



easier designated, and we have less 
colic. 

Q. — Have you experimented with 
mixed feed? 

A. — Very little. Do you refer to 
the Eldridge feed? ' 

Q. — Yes, sir; that is one form of 
mixed feed. Would you think it 
profitable for the State to install a 
mixed feed plant? 
A. — I can't say. 

Q. — I see, Mr. South, you have 
some corn out here that looks like 
Northern seed. 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is the result of your ex- 
perience in planting that northern 
corn in the Brazos Valley? 

A. — I don't think much of it. It 
is all right to plant about 200 acres 
' of it for early feeding. 

Q. — What is the difference in the 
age of the early seed and the corn 
planted on the Jackson place we saw 
this afternoon? 

A. — About the same time. I be- 
lieve the northern corn was planted 
a week later. 

Q. — Would you not say the result 
proves conclusively it is useless to 
plant northern seed? 

A. — Yes, sir; only for early feed. 

Q. — Will it make anything at all? 

A. — I don't know. We have only 
planted it for — 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — The Baker tract was men- 
tioned awhile ago. How many acres 
in that tract? 

A. — Fifty acres. 

Q. — Is that one of the tracts sur- 
rounded by the Ramsey place? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Who owns that? 

A. — Baker does. 

Q. — He has owned it some time? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You have had to fence that 
off? 

A. — No, sir; I did not, but I have 
fenced all around it. 

Q. — You have had to put in a 
fence? 

A. — Yes, sir; we could not fence 
the Ramsey farm without it. 

Q. — Are they in the habit of turn- 
ing stock loose and letting them run 
on the State farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — We are also leasing a tract 
of land owned by Mr. Masterson of 
Galveston? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How long has he owned that 
tract? 



308 



Report and Findings of 



A. — I could not tell you. 

Q. — We are leasing a tract from 
Bassett Blakely? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How long has lie owned that 
tract? 

A.— He nought it in 1911. 

Q. — Are those all the tracts oper- 
ated on leases? 

A. — There is 170 acres more leas- 
ed from James O. Smith. 

Q. — Is there an option to buy the 
Smith tract? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is that in cultivation? 

A. — There is about 170 acres in 
cultivation, and about 240 acres in 
the tract. 

Q. — Do we operate that farm on 
share or cash rent? 

A. — Cash rent. 

Q. — Have you any option to buy 
that land? 

A. — Yes, sir; at $60.00 per acre. 
It is all red oyster shell land. 

Q. — Is it all in cultivation? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Mr. Smith has owned that 
land some time? 

A. — Fifteen or twenty years. He 
got it through his wife? 

Mr. Brahan makes statement as 
follows: A negro owned a tract of 
this oyster shell land, 65 acres. He 
wanted to get out, and we wanted 
him out, and we traded him sixty- 
five acres of this farm to get 
him out of the middle of our 
place, and put him on land close to 
a negro colony. The deeds were 
drawn up by the Attorney General 
and the contract approved by the 
Attorney General. 

Mr. Brahan interrogates Captain 
South : 

Q. — How many acres of land have 
you cleared on the Ramsey farm 
proper since you have been in charge 
up to date? 

A. — I can tell you approximately. 
Florence in charge of No. 3 Camp 
claims he has about 800 acres in 
cultivation. Out of that 800 acres, 
there is about, I would say, about 
100 acres in the old field. He has 
cleared, I judge, about 700 acres; 
that is, out from stump. The other 
it cost $3.00 or $4.00 to brush it 
off, and here we have cleared 1,100 
acres, something like that. 

Q. — On this end? 

A. — We have cleared something 
between four and five hundred acres. 



By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — Altogether, about 1,200 acres 
on the Ramsey place in the last two 
years. 

A. — Yes, sir; something like that. 

Q. — It is your opinion it cost about 
$50.00 per acre to clear this land? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Mr. Brahan interrogates Captain 
South: 

Q. — What could this land be clear- 
ed for by working reasonable hours 
and doing a reasonable days work? 

A. — About $15.00. All the work 
we do with the exception of plowing, 
such as ditching, chopping wood, 
cutting cane, etc., it takes about 
three men now where it used to be 
only one. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Cap- 
tain South: 

Q. — It has been stated the class of 
convicts now being received into the 
penitentiary are not physically as 
able to do work as the convicts here- 
tofore received. What is your opin- 
ion on that? 

A. — I think we have got about as 
good a class as we ever had. They 
are not as good now as they were 
twenty years ago, but for the past 
five or six years they are about the 
same. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Are you keeping a record of 
the lumber you saw here? 

A. — We are keeping a record of 
all we are taking away this year. 

Q. — Have you any idea the amount 
you have cut this year? 

A. — No, sir; I don't know. The 
sawer has a record of that. 

Q. — What do you estimate the 
value of the saw logs and the wood 
per acre for the land you have clear- 
ed? You say it costs approximately 
$50.00 per acre to clear it where 
you allow a charge for labor. Now, 
how much do you get back on that 
•in the value of lumber and wood? 

A. — The wood is practically noth- 
ing. The lumber is hard to estimate. 

Q. — Would you get back 25 per 
cent? 

A. — No, sir; about 10 per cent. I 
would think. It does not pay to 
haul wood over two miles to the 
track; counting the wear and tear 
and breakage. 

Q. — The greater part of the wood 
on the land aside from the saw logs 
is a waste? 

A.— Yes, sir. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



309 



Senator Jno. G. Willacy interro- 
gates Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — I understand when you cut 
and ship wood from these farms here 
— I believe from the Imperial or 
Harlem — and ship it to Huntsville, 
that — 

A. — No, sir; we ship wood from 
this farm here — the Ramsey farm. 

Q. — What is the freight rate? 

A. — 60 or 40 cents. The rate was 
very reasonable. I don't remember. 

Mr. Tittle states: We estimate the 
wood costs us $2.50 at Huntsville. 
Captain South states: They allow me 
$1.50 per cord here on the track. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Cap- 
tain South: 

Q. — What did it cost you? 

A. — About $1.25; possibly $1.50, 
the way we got it out. 

Mr. Brahan states: A cord of this 
wood goes farther than three cords 
of pine that we get out at Huntsville. 
This wood here burns better and 
makes more steam. 

Captain South makes the following 
statement: I notice from Mr. Moore's 
statement to the Committee he 
thought the Commission made a 
great mistake in retaining the em- 
ployees in the old system. I think 
the system made a great mistake in 
not retaining as many of the old ones 
as they could, and — 

(Senator Willacy at this time 
makes statement to stenographer 
that this statement of Captain 
South's and Mr. Moore's reply need 
not go in the record.) 



SUNDAY, MAY 2 5, 1913, AT TRAM- 
MELL FARM. 

Testimony of J. H. Weems. 

By John G. Willacy: 

Q. — Give your name in full to the 
Secretary. 

A. — J. H. Weems. 

Q. — What position do you hold 
with the Penitentiary System? 

A. — I am Assistant Manager on 
this farm. 

Q. — You have control of the Tram- 
mell Farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How long have you been here, 
Mr. Weens? 

A. — Since the 12th day of last Sep- 
tember. 

Q. — How many acres are you now 
cultivating? 

A. — About twenty-one or twenty- 
two hundred acres. 



Q. — How much of that is in cane? 

A. — About 700 acres. 

Q. — Have you got a good stand? 

A. — A pretty good stand on nearly 
all of it; some not good. 

Q. — What per cent, is a bad stand? 

A. — About 10 per cent. I suppose. 
It is hard to tell, Senator. We have 
had no rains since February, and this 
rain will bring it out wonderfully. 

Q. — Do you think the cane we saw 
coming through the gate will im- 
prove? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How much have you got in cot- 
ton? 

A. — Between 900 and 1000 acres. 

Q. — How was your cotton crop last 
year? 

A. — Very good. We had 600 acres 
last year, and we gathered 33 8 bales. 

Q. — How is this farm operated, on 
the share system, is it not? 

A. — Last year it was. 

Q. — How about this year? 

A. — The State has it leased. 

Q. — Does the State pay cash rent? 

A. — I don't know whether it is 
cash or part of the crop. 

Mr. Brahan states: We pay $5.00 
for corn and cotton land, and $6.00 
for the cane land, and Mr. Trammell 
furnished the mules, implements, 
houses, etc., and we have the right 
after September 1 to elect whether 
we pay money rent or part of the 
crop, and if a storm should come 
up after September 1 we can then 
go back and give him one-fourth of 
the crop. 

Q. — How many acres did you have 
in last year? 

A. — About six hundred. 

Q. — How many bales did you 
make? 

A. — 338, I think. 

Q. — That was on the share farm 
last year? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What share do we pay on cot- 
ton for the use of the land? 

A. — They got 40 per cent, of the 
corn and cotton and 50 per cent, of 
the cane. 

Q. — Where was this cotton ginned? 

A. — Angleton. 

Q. — How did you separate the 
share belonging to the State and Mr. 
Trammell? 

A. — We turned the accounts of the 
sales to the Commissioners, and they 
divided the money. 

Q. — What did you do with the cot- 
ton seed? Sell it the same way? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



310 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — What did your cane average 
per acre last year? 

A. — I don't exactly recollect the 
figures, but we weighed all the crop. 
Mr. Trammell could tell you exactly. 
I did know, but I forget. 

Q. — Could you tell about what the 
yield was? 

A. — I don't recollect. 
Q. — Have you had experience in 
growing cane? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have grown cane 
several years. I used to work on 
a cane farm altogether. 

Q. — Have you had any experience 
the last several years? 

A. — Yes, sir; I worked at the Ram- 
sey place last year. 

Q. — In your opinion, is cane grow- 
ing in this country profitable? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. Where 
a man has a mill it is profitable, but 
I don't think it profitable to go into 
it very heavy. Mr. Trammell did 
very well with his mill last year. 

Q. — Did he make his money out of 
the cane of the mill? 
A. — Both. 

Q. — If you are raising cane and 
have to sell it, is there any money in 
that? 

A. — No; I don't believe there is. 
Q. — Where did you grind your last 
year's cane? 

A. — We shipped it to the Eldridge 
Mill from the Ramsey farm last year. 
Q. — Were you here at the time the 
cane was gathered last year? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you sell the State's part to 
Mr. Trammell? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know the price? 
A. — $3.50. 

Q. — But in growing the cane and 
selling the cane, there is no money 
in that? 

A. — No, sir; the money is in the 
grinding. 

Q. — Did you ever figure up to see 
if the State was losing money in 
raising cane? 

A. — No, sir; I know we had a tre- 
mendous crop at the Ramsey farm 
year before last, and lost about two- 
thirds of it. 

Q. — That was due to the freeze? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did the balance you had to 
sell after the freeze bring a good 
price? 

A. — I don't know what it brought. 
Q. — You don't sell it yourself? 
A. — No, sir; the Commissioners 
make the deals. 



Q. — Did you handle the cotton 
crop of 1911 on this farm? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — It was all picked before you 
came here? 

A. — No, sir; I was not here in 
1911. 

Q. — The cotton crop was sold be- 
fore you came then? 
A. — Yes, sir; in 1911. 
Q. — You don't know what kind of 
a crop was made in 1911? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you know how many acres 
there was in cotton? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Would the land show for it- 
self how many acres was planted in 
cotton? 

A. — You can't tell coming here last 
September what was planted the year 
before. 

Q. — You had no idea how much 
had been planted in cotton? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — I notice the sale of cotton, 
seed for 1911 was $312.54, sale of 
cotton was $743.24. In other words 
the cotton only brought twice as much 
as they got for the seed. As a rule 
cotton ought to bring about six times 
as much as for the seed. Do you 
know about that transaction? 
A. — No, sir. 

Mr. Brahan states: The cotton crop 
was very, very bad on this place in 
1911. We hardly made any cotton 
at all. We had a great deal of rain 
and the seed was rotten. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
Brahan: 

Q. — But the seed brought about 50 
per cent, as much as the lint. 

A. — I know there was practically 
no cotton crop made on this place. 
We had a big cane and corn crop, 
but the cotton was very light. It 
was a very small crop. 

Q. — Do you know where they sold 
that cotton? 

A. — I know we either sold it at 
Houston or Galveston. We shipped 
to both places. 

Q. — No matter how short a crop 
is, if you have any crop at all, the 
lint should bring practically six times 
as much as the seed. According to 
this rule we ought to have *x,872.00, 
whereas the audit only shows $743.- 
24. Do you think that is an error? 
A. — No, sir; I don't think so. 
There was very little made in 1911. 
Q. — Whatever it was, it ought to 
be different from what this audit 
shows. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



311 



A. — I would not like to make a 
statement about this as I would have 
to go to the records and see the re- 
ports, etc. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
the staple of it? 

A. — It was very sorry. There 
was a great deal of rain, and the 
cotton was very, very sorry on this 
place. 

Senator Willacy resumes interro- 
gation of Captain Weens? 

Q. — Do you think there is no prof- 
it in raising cane unless you have a 
mill to grind it? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think so. I 
don't think anybody has made a cent 
out of it since the Civil War. They 
have all gone broke at it. 

Q. — Do you know what they are 
going to do with the sugar cane on 
this place this year? 

A. — I think Mr. Trammell has con- 
tracted for it. 

Mr. Brahan states: We have sold 
the cane to. Mr. Trammell at $3.85 
per ton. 

Q. — Do you think it a good invest- 
ment for the State to pay $6.00 per 
acre on land if you can't make any- 
thing on the same? 

A. — No. sir. 

Q. — You are on a share basis 
here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You have an option until the 
first of September to either pay 
money rent or rent the land on the 
shares? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You have the option to either 
pay cash or shares? 

Mr. Brahan states: I think if any- 
body could raise cane with the pres- 
ent tariff and get $3.85 f. o. b. plan- 
tation they could make a fortune on 
it. The ruling price a great many 
years ago was $2.50 per ton. 

Q. — How about the convict labor? 
Do they work as well as formerly? 

A. — They do not. 

Q. — About how does it compare? 
What per cent, more work did the 
convicts do before this law went 
into effect? 

A. — They used to do about three 
times the amount of work they do 
now. 

Q. — About one-third as much 
now? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And even when the convict 
iabor was cheap, and worked better 
there was no money in it? 

A. — I don't believe there is any 



money in growing cane unless you 
mill it yourself. 

Q. — Even if $3.85 is an extraord- 
inary price? 

A. — Yes, sir. It ought to help 
out on cane if they work and get 
a price of $3.85. 

Q. — Will you tell the committee 
the reason why the convicts won't 
work as well as they used to? 

A. — There is no mode of making 
them work. They have got to have 
some discipline; something to make 
them work. 

Q. — Do you have to punish your 
convicts? 

A. — Yes, sir; punish them some, 
but they don't care much for the 
punishment we give them. The 
dark cell and the chains are not so 
effective as the strap. 

Q. — Are they afraid of being hung 
up in the chains? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What do you think about 
chaining them up? 

A. — The chain does some good, 
but nothing like the old mode, that 
is, the strap. 

Q. — Do you think the chaining up^ 
is a cruel punishment? 

A. — Yes, sir; it is much more- 
cruel than the strap, and they don't 
seem to fear it like the strap. Since- 
there been so much digging around 
by investigating committees, and so 
many reports in the papers, my men 
are working better than they have, 
still they don't do what they ought 
to do. I consider I have the best 
men in the State; still they don't 
do what they ought to do. 

Q. — Have you done any ditching 
on this farm? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have cleaned out 
some ditches. It is a farm that 
needs ditching right badly. It has 
been laying idle several years, and it 
needs ditching very badly. 

Q. — Is that expensive? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you done any clearing 
of brush on the place? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many acres have you 
cleared? 

A. — We have cleared about 50 
acres, which the State gets free of 
rent this year, or probably 75 acres. 

Q. — What does it cost per acre to 
clear that? 

A. — I don't know. It was princi- 
pally cane breaks. It was not very 
hard to clear. That we cleared on 
this side was comparatively easy to 



312 



Report and Findings of 



clear. The large trees we did not 
cut out. We just deadened them. 

Q. — How many men does it take 
to clear an acre in a day; taking the 
average 75 acres you have cleared? 

A. — Now, that is something I have 
never studied about. It would take 
— I could tell you by looking at the 
books, but I never thought to refresh 
my memory with it. 

Q. — Could you approximate it, 
just to find out what it costs to clear 
the land? 

A. — To cut the timber off of it 
and pile it and burn it, it will cost 
$10.00 or $12.00 per acre. 

Q. — That is just like you cleared 
it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And got the use of the land 
for one year? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How much ditching did you 
do? 

A. — I could not tell you exactly. 
I make a report every night of the 
ditching. There is a record kept of 
that. 

Q. — I notice some railroad ties 
here. Is there a convict force do- 
ing any work for the railroad? 

A. — A fellow ran in here last Sun- 
day and dumped those cross ties. 

Q. — I notice (referring to audit 
book) on the Trammell farm that the 
account for convict labor for 1912 
was $16,848.50, and for the over- 
time $585.00, while the maintenance 
and supplies was $12,539.39 and the 
item for convict labor is $4,863.11 
in excess of the maintenance and 
supplies, while at all these other 
farms the maintenance and sup- 
plies are way in excess of the 
convict labor. For instance, on 
the House plantation the con- 
vict labor was $27,931.65, and 
the maintenance and supplies was 
$33,974.19. Could you tell the com- 
mittee how it is on this plantation 
the charge of convict labor is in ex- 
cess of the cost for maintenance and 
supplies? 

A. — It is more than on the other 
plantation, you say? 

Q.— The convict labor charge is 
more than the maintenance and sup- 
plies. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And on the other places the 
maintenance charge and supplies is 
in excess of the convict labor charge. 
Now, they charge you at Huntsville 
50 cents per day for every convict 
you have here? 



A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And all these other places the 
maintenance and supplies cost more 
per day than the convict labor charge 
of 50 cents. Can you explain to the 
Committee why it is the convict labor 
charge is in excess of the mainte- 
nance and supplies? 

A. — Our feeding, except two farms 
in the system; our farm feed bill is 
less than any others, and unless that 
is it, I don't know what is the cause 
of it. 

Q. — Do you use any of the con- 
victs for doing work for any other 
parties? 

A. — We used them around the 
sugar house last winter for Mr. 
Trammell and in cutting cord wood, 
and in cutting wood for the place 
and clearing that land. That is all 
that I ever did. 

Q. — Do you know how much work 
that was? 

A. — No, sir; all that has been sent 
in. 

Q. — How many convicts have you 
here? 

A. — One hundred and thirty-one. 

Q. — How many guards have you? 

A. — Thirteen. 

Q. — Do you have any trouble here 
with drnukenness? I mean the 
guard? 

A. — No, sir; I have had none since 
I have been here. 

Q. — You don't know of any cases 
where liquor is brought to the con- 
victs by the guards? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Any gambling going on of any 
kind? 

A. — I have not seen a person 
gambling since I have been on the 
place. 

Q. — What is your system of receiv- 
ing supplies here? Do you make re- 
quisition on Huntsville? 

A. — I make requisition the first 
of every month. 

Q. — Have you a steward here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What system do you have in 
checking up the supplies you receive? 

A. — I get an invoice when the 
goods come. I weigh up,, and if any- 
thing is short we make complaint. 

Q. — As to the quality, do you 
check that up? 

A. — Yes, sir; flour, meal and 
everything. 

Q. — Did you ever receive any in- 
ferior bacon and flour? 

A. — Yes, sir; we have received 
some pretty bad flour, but there was 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



313 



only a small amount of that. The 
bacon was very good. 

Q. — As a rule, that comes up to 
the standard? 

A. — Yes, sir; the bacon, I don't 
suppose, could be better. The Ar- 
mour Packing Co. puts up pretty 
good meat. 

Q. — How much wood did you get 
off of the land you cleared? 

A. — There was about three or four 
hundred cords. 

Q. — Who got that wood? 

A. — Mr. Trammell. It was used 
at the sugar mill. 

Q. — That was the seventy-five 
acres you cleared? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you sell it to him? 

A. — I think he paid the State for 
it. 

Mr. Trammell states: That wood 
came off of about 125 acres of land 
and there was 338 cords, and it cost 
about $1180. 

Q. — Was there any wood got off 
that 75 acres? 

A. — No, sir; except what we used 
for cooking, etc. 

Q. — How much wood did you get 
off of it? 

A. — I suppose we used a couple of 
cors per day, maybe more. 

Q. — Did you get that off of the 75 
acres? 

A.- — No, sir. 

Q. — Now, Captain Weens, I am try- 
ing to find out how many cords of 
wood we got off the 75 acres? 

A. — We did not cut it in cords. 
It was in pole lengths and hauled 
in. 

Q. — We were to clear the 75 acres 
of land and receive free rent for one 
year? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
lands generally in this country? 

A. — Tolerably, yes, sir. 

Q. — When they rent lands to peo- 
ple who clear them up, about how 
many years do they give them free 
rent? 

A. — I have never had any lands 
cleared. I don't know. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the val- 
ue of lands around here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — About what will they run? 

A. — Lands similar to these? 
Q. — Yes, sir. 

A. — This is a good piece of land. 

Q. — What are their values? 
A. — $50 to $100 per acre. 



Q. — That is, iu cultivation? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What is the timber land 
worth? 

A. — I don't know. I don't know 
what it is worth. I know of none 
sold lately. 

Q- — Does this land verflow? 

A. — No, sir. There might be some 
spots that would overflow, too. 

Q- — How many acres in cultivation 
on the entire place? 

A. — About twenty-two hundred. 

Q. — About how many acres are 
there in the Trammell piace? 

A. — Seventy-five hundred acres in 
the entire .tract. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
Trammell: 

Q. — In 1911 this farm was operat- 
ed on the shares, was it not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What kind of cotton crop did 
you have that year? 

A. — We made a pretty poor cotton 
crop. 

Q. — How many acres did you have 
in? 

A. — About four hundred acres; 
something like that. We got 153 
bales. 

Q. — What part of that did the 
State get? 

A. — Sixty per cent. 

Q. — This audit shows the receipts 
of this cotton seed was very low. 
You ought to have had at least 45 
tons of seed, and at $20.00 per ton, 
it would have been $900.00, and yet 
this audit shows you got $312.54 for 
the seed, where it should have been 
not less than $900.00, and the re- 
ceipts for the cotton was $743.24, 
when it ought to have been in the 
neighborhood of $6000.00. 

Mr. Tittle states: I think that is 
evidently a mistake. 

Mr. Trammell states: I think there 
was somewhere between 1,000 or 1,- 
200 bushels of seed I got for plant- 
ing purposes that I should have paid 
for, but when I examined them they 
were not fit for planting purposes, 
and they were thrown in a heep be- 
hind the house, and I bought more 
seed. I should have paid for them 
if they had been sound. I suppose 
they went — 

Q. — Is that the custom Mr. Tram- 
mell, after people buy cotton seed at 
the gin and take them home, and 
they don't turn out good, that they 
don't pay for them. 

A. — I don't think that is right. 



314 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Who bought the cotton that 
year Mr. Trammell? 

A. — I don't know where it was 
shipped to. 

Q. — How did you make that divi- 
sion? 

A. — It was shipped to W. D. Cleve- 
land, I think, and he was instructed 
to credit 60 per cent, to the State 
and 40 per cent, to me. 

Q. — Do you remember what you 
got for that 40 per cent? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You got over $500.00 for it? 

A. — Of course. 

At this time Chairman Will H. 
Mayes dictated the following letter 
to Mr. R. W. Brahan, Huntsville, 
Texas, to the stenographer: 

"Mr. R. W. Brahan, Huntsville, Tex. 
Dear Sir: 

The Committee appointed to inves- 
tigate the financial affairs of the 
penitentiary system would be glad to 
have a detailed report of the cotton 
sales on the Trammell Farm, togeth- 
er with the sales of cotton seed for 
the year 1911. 

Please forward this statement to 
me at your earliest convenience. 
Yours truly, 

WILL H. MAYES, 

Chairman Penitentiary Investigat- 
ing Committee." 

Mr. L. Tillotson interrogated Cap- 
tain Weens: 

Q. — How long have you been 
identified with the penitentiary sys- 
tem? 

A. — Two years. 

Q. — Did you ever have any experi- 
ence with the management of con- 
victs under the old law? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Where were you first con- 
nected with the State penitentiary? 

A. — On the Ramsey Farm, under 
Captain South. 

Q. — Which, in your judgment, is 
the better farm, the Ramsey farm or 
the farm down here? 

A. — This is the better farm. It 
is higher land. It is as strong and 
as good as any in the State. 

Q. — Do you think this is a good 
cotton land? 

A. — Yes, sir. We had cotton they 
claimed was planted the first of May 
that we got right at a bale to the acre 
off of. 

Q. — Are crops as certain here as 
there? 

A. — Yes, sir. We are too close to- 



gether to be much difference in fail- 
ures. I have been raised in this 
country. Was born right at this 
place, and we don't have those freaks 
often. 

Q. — You have negroes on this 
farm? 

A. — Yes, sir.; all except the mail 
rider; night boy. 

Q. — Have you had any trouble in 
managing them this year? 

A. — We had a little trying to get 
work out of them. 

Q. — Have any mutinies? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Any third grade men? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you work them with the 
others? 

A. — Yes, sir; we are compelled to 
work them the way we are situated 
here. We have no way of keeping 
them separate in the building; feed 
them together and sleep together, 
but whenever I can separate them in 
a cell, I do it. 

Q. — Do you think the third class 
men among the others has a de- 
moralizing effect on the others? 

A. — Yes, sir. The third class men 
are big able bodied men that have 
got the Bull in them so much they 
won't work. However, the most of 
my force are trusties and men I can 
trust under the six shooter squad. I 
have only got two shot gun men on 
the place. 

Q. — In your long residence and 
experience in this part of the State, 
do you believe this section of Texas 
unhealthful for working convicts? 

A. — Well, I don't see why it should 
be. I was born here and raised here, 
and I am not a picture of bad health. 
I was born on this creek. I think 
this is as healthful as any county in 
the State. Of course, in the Brazos 
bottom there is a little fever and 
chills in the summer time where 
there is stagnant water, but taking 
it as a whole this is not a sickly 
country. 

Q. — Have you ever worked white 
convicts? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — How often did the manage- 
ment of this farm change hands from 
1911 to 1912? 

A. — Mr. Trammell can tell you. 

Mr. Trammell states: In 1911 we 
had no change, but in 1912 we had 
eight different managers. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



315 



Q. — Is it posible to make a success 
at farming by changing the manage- 
ment eight times? 

A. — You can do much better with 
one man. 

Q. — Were the guards frequently 
changed last year? 

A. — Yes, sir. There ought to be 
a way to get men who will stick to 
their jobs, and pay them better 
wages. Now, a guard who comes 
here and wants a job who has never 
seen convicts before draws the same 
wages as an experienced guard, and 
I would rather risk an old guard 
with fifty of them than a new one 
with ten. The old guards will do 
more work. Of course, a sergeant 
or manager can't be with all the 
force at one time. I have to be all 
over the place and if you give the 
guards more it would be better; I 
believe it would be a good idea 
to start them in at $15.00 or 
$20.00 per month and work them 
up, to say $50.00, and when they 
get to $50.00 per month, then stop. 
Q. — What salary are you paid as 
manager? 

A. — $100.00 per month. 
Q. — Anything else besides salary? 
A. — No, sir. Well, I am furn- 
ished everything. 

Q. — Any limit on the amount furn- 
ished? 

A. — No, sir; just the feeding, 
that is all. 

Q. — I say, any limited amount? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Are you charged up in any 
way with what you get out of the 
commissary? 

A. — Yes, sir. Everything shows 
on the books. 

Q. — How long has that been the 
custom? 

A. — Ever since I have been here. 
By Senator John G. Willacy: 
Q. — What do you pay the book- 
keeper? 

A. — The bookeeper left last week. 
He has been getting $50.00 per 
month, and he gets his board. 

Mr. Brahan states: Yes, sir; ev- 
erybody gets his board. He was 
steward and bookkeeper. Of course 
he was allowed to eat at the guards 
table if he wanted to. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
Q. — Did you have a physician here 
at this camp? 

A. — Yes, sir. The physician lives 
at Angleton. 



Q. — What is he paid? 

A. — $30.00 per month. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Have you had any cases of 
sickness here? 

A. — Yes, sir; last fall we had 
some sickness. 

Q. — What was the trouble? 

A. — We had bilious fever and a 
few cases of small pox. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — How many farms have you 
been on since you have been in the 
system? 

A. — The Ramsey Farm and this 
one. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
the system of bookeeping here last 
year? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know if there was a 
bookkeeper? 

A. — Well, I suppose so. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Mr. 
Brahan: 

Q. — Can you tell me about that? 

A. — We did not have a book- 
keeper here, but the camp guards 
kept the records, and the records 
were sent in to Huntsville to the 
Commissioners. I would like to 
make a statement about the man- 
agers on this place. Mr. Journi- 
gan resigned some time in Febru- 
ary or January on account of bad 
health. He was one of the very best 
farm managers and took good care 
of his teams, and he quit on account 
of ill health, and Mr. Grace was ap- 
pointed to take his place and sent 
here from another place. Mr. Grace 
had some trouble and Mr. Cabell and 
Mr. Tittle came down, and they 
thought best to relieve him. Mr. 
Barnhill, a guard, was put in tem- 
porarily for a day or two in 1911. 
Mr. Worrell knew this country well, 
and we brought him down tempo- 
rarily as sergeant, and Mr. Crowe 
was appointed permanent sergeant, 
or manager. He made a complete 
failure as manager, and he could not 
handle anything, and the Commission 
relieved him in about a month. I 
then sent up Captain Weems here 
as sergeant. Russell was here as a 
transfer man, and he filled in until 
Captain Weems came here. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
Q. — You want to state you had 
four managers here and the others 
were only temporary? 
A. — Yes, sir. 



316 



Report and Findings of 



MONDAY, MAY 26, 1913, AT CLEM- 
ENS FARM. 

Testimony by W. M. Brooks. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Will you plase give your full 
name to the Secretary? 

A. — W. M. Brooks. 

Q. — Are you connected with the 
Prison System now? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you ever been connected 
with it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How long since? 

A. — I left the service August, 
1912? 

Q. — You were here in 1911? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What position did you hold 
then? 

A. — Manager of the Clemens 
Farm. 

Q. — And you were here until 
when? 

A. — August 3rd, 1912, last year? 

Q. — How many acres in this plan- 
tation? 

A. — I understand 8,212 acres. 

Q. — How much is in cultivation? 

A. — Something like 4,000 acres in 
cultivation. 

Q. — How many acres did you have 
in cane last year? 

A. — I have not the data on hand, 
but there was something like 2,500 
acres in cane on this place. 

Q. — Do you consider this good 
soil for cane? 

A. — The peach soil; I do. 

Q. — And some soil you don't? 

A. — On the black silt soil; I do 
not consider it good soil. 

Q. — How much good cane land on 
this plantation? 

A. — I should judge about 2000 
acres. 

Q. — Are you familiar with it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — When did you come here? 

A. — I came here January 20th, 
1904. There is more alluvial soil 
than the 2,000 acres, but some of it 
is old and has been operated for 
years, and I do not consider it first 
class land. 

Q. — The State has had this farm 
a long rwhile? 

A. — Yes, sir; in 1902 it was pur- 
chased, I think. 

Captain E. B. Mills makes the 
statement that it was purchased un- 
der the Sayer's administration, and 



that he thought it was purchased 
in 1901. 

Q. — Has there been any material 
enhancement in the value of the land 
since that time? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What are lands, averaging 
about with this farm, worth in this 
vicinity? 

A. — $50.00 to $75.00 per acre. 

Q. — Does this mean small or large 
tracts? 

A. — That means large tracts. 

Q. — You are speaking of cultivated 
lands? 

A. — Yes, sir. There are two clas- 
ses of lands; the peach soil and the 
black silt soil. The peach land is 
much more valuable than the black 
silt soil. 

Q. — And land such as this you 
would consider worth about what? 

A. — I should judge around $50.00 
per acre. I should think that would 
be fair. 

Q. — Do you think it is good cot- 
ton land? 

A. — Yes, sir? 

Q. — About what did it average in 
1911; during the last year you were 
here? 

A. — We did not have in but a 
small acreage in cotton, and it did 
not average a half a bale. 

Q. — Do you think it would aver- 
age one-third of a bale? 

A. — Off hand I would not say so, 
but I couldn't state now. 

Q. — Did you keep a set of books 
to show those things when you were 
here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Could you tell us about how 
much cotton you had in that year? 

A. — No, sir; I think four hundred 
and some odd acres — about four hun- 
dred and thirty I think. 

Q. — Did you lease any land that 
year? 

A. — In 1911 we leased the Caldwell 
place, 312 acres. 

Q. — How much of that was in cul- 
tivation? 

A. — It was all in cultivation. 

Q. — How was it leased; share or 
cash rent? 

A. — Cash rent, $3.00; that is just 
for the land. 

Q. — Is that an average of the ren- 
tal value of the land here? 

A. — No, sir; I would judge it to 
be below that while I am renting 
some land this year for $3.00, but it 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



317 



is not the average rental for cane 
land. 

Q. — Was that planted in cane or 
cotton? 

A. — In cane. 

Q. — When was this sugar mill built 
here? 

A. — I can't say. I think it was 
erected in 1902. 

Q. — When you left, was it in good 
condition? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Was it considered a modern 
mill? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q- — Do you think it pays to raise 
cane in this section? 

A. — Yes, sir. I think it would be 
better to confine it to land adapted 
to cane. I don't think it would pay 
to extend in on the black silt land. 
It might be however, that some years 
you would make a good cane crop. 
It does not stand the drought as 
long as the alluvial land. 

Q. — What would be the average 
amount of cane on this land? 

A. — I think about 20 tons; some 
years more than that. I have made 
a rise of 30 tons on this place. It 
ought to make 20 tons. 

Q. — But what does it make? 

A. — 14 or 15 tons. 

Q. — Do you think there is any 
money in that? 

A. — No, sir; you ought to have 18 
or 20 tons. 

Q. — Less than that you would not 
make expenses? 

A. — Yes, sir; but you would not 
make any money on it. The great 
trouble is the short years. 

Q. — Do you consider it a risky 
or hazardous crop to raise? 

A. — Yes, sir; I would consider it 
hazardous without irrigation. I think 
any crop you get big yields on would 
be hazardous; yet cane I think will 
stand as much drought as any crop 
we have. 

Q. — Is it not necessary to have 
rain on cane at the proper time to 
make it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you have charge of the su- 
gar mill? 

A. — Yes, sir; but the engineer was 
not under my direct instructions. 

Q. — Is the sugar mill under the di- 
rect charge of the manager now? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Which do you consider the 



most money; grinding or raising 
cane? 

A. — I think handling the mill. 

Q. — Which is the greatest profit 
to be made; by the mill or by the 
field? 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — Is there any money in raising 
cane at $3.20 as it is, or in owning 
the mill and grinding it? 

A. — Best to own the mill and grind 
the cane. 

Q. — Have you *ever known any 
man in this valley to make any mon- 
ey raising cane? 

A. — The State made money. 

Q. — When? 

A. — When this plantation was 
purchased, they placed the mill at 
$260,000.00 and the State was to 
pay $8.00 per acre for the cane, and 
I understand from Captain Mills in 
one year made five and a quarter 
million pounds of sugar. I left Cap- 
tain Mills here on January 20th, 
1907, and I think it was a little 
over 2,000,000 pounds of sugar that 
year. The next year this place pro- 
duced over 4,000,000 pounds of 
sugar, and the third year I bought 
some cane from outside parties, and 
they sold it to the State mill. 

Q. — What did you get for that 
when you sold it? 

A. — The 19 09 crop was the year 
we had the storm on the first day 
of July, and we got out of that crop 
over 4,000,000 pounds of sugar and 
got 4 cents for it at the mill, f. o. 
b. a car. 

Q. — What did you get for it the 
other years? 

A. — I am not just sure about these 
prices. All this was handled through 
the financial agent. This particular 
year I think they sold it to Mr. Eld- 
ridge at Sugarland, but the year we 
made the Y. C. Sugar we sold to 
Mr. Eldridge; that was the only year 
we made the 96 test on sugar, but 
that was all handled by the Financial 
Agent. 

Q. — You do know that it brought 
one year, 4 cents, but do not know 
what it brought the other years? 

A. — In 1910 it was 4 cents, and in 
1911 I know it was better than in 
1910. 

Q. — How many pounds of sugar 
will a ton of sugar cane produce 9 

A. — I judge about 150 pounds to 
the ton. It is owing to the cane. If 
cane is on old land it will produce 
more sugar, but if it is on fresh land 



318 



Report and Findings of 



it will produce more tonnage, but 
less sugar. 

Q. — You were grinding cane off 
this farm at that time? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What did you allow the farm 
for this sugar cane? 

A. — Up to 1911 there was no sep- 
arate account of the farm and the 
mill. 

Q. — Now right there; did you buy 
any sugar cane that year? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What did you pay for the 
cane? 

A. — It would amount to anywhere 
from $2.80 to $3.60. It is owing to 
the sugar contents of the cane. I 
think though it would average about 
$3.20. I understand this mill cost 
$260,000.00, and that the farm had 
paid for the mill and paid for itself. 

Q. — Do you know if that amount 
was the gross proceeds of the farm? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Therefore, if there was no 
gross allowance 'there would be no 
maintenance or operating account? 

A. — No, sir; I could not say that. 

Q. — You understand the proceeds 
of the farm paid for the mill? You 
said just now the farm paid for it- 
self and the mill. 

A. — Yes, sir; I understand so, but 
don't know if it was the gross pro- 
ceeds or the net. 

Q. — Do you know what this farm 
cost us? 

A. — $8.00 per acre. I understand. 

Q. — Did you raise cotton on this 
farm before last year? 

A. — Yes, sir; on a small scale. 
Last year was the largest cotton 
crop. 

Q. — Did you ever raise a crop of 
potatoes on this farm? 

A. — No, sir; only for plantation 
use. 

Q. — You are operating a large 
farm in this vicinity? 

A. — No, sir; only a small one, 515 
acres, using day labor. 

Q. — What do you have to pay to- 
day for labor? 

A. — 75 cents to $1.25. 

Q. — What is the average length 
of day that labor works? 

A. — I pay them — I pay my best 
men $1.25 for five days in the week, 
and if they only work four days in 
the week I only pay them $1 per 
day. 

Q. — About how much land do you 
cultivate per man with free labor? 



A. — A fratcion over twenty-four 
acres. 

Q. — Do they work 10 hours per 
day? 

A. — No, sir; they work a little the 
rise of 12 hours per day. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
way the convicts are working now? 

A. — Yes, sir; and there is no com- 
parison. I believe I get a great deal 
better work than the State. 

Q.— Do you get more work than 
the State? 

A. — Yes, sir; more work and better 
work? 

Q. — As a man who has handled 
convicts, and handled the State farm 
for a number of years, would you 
mind telling the Committee your 
idea why it is the convicts are not 
doing a better day's work than they 
are now? 

A. — I can give you my idea. I be- 
lieve every citizen should be inter- 
ested in the convict problem. 

Q. — You are here as a citizen? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now we would like to — 

A. — There are quite a number of 
reasons, I think, they are in such 
bad financial shape. One reason is 
we are not getting the amount of 
work out of them we should, and I 
want to say further I am not a dis- 
charged, disgruntled empolyee, and 
have no feeling against anyone. I 
think the Commissioners have made 
mistakes, some they should not have 
made, and I propose to say what I 
think. In the first place we are not 
getting anything like enough work 
to make the plantation self sustain- 
ing, and I think the great cause is 
the want of discipline among the men 
on the plantation. You can't expect 
one convict to do a good day's work 
and another convict shirking from 
morning till night, and I think you 
are disheartening the best convicts, 
and I think there is a very small 
per cent of the convicts today re- 
sponsible for want of discipline in 
the penal institutions. I don't think 
you get the necessary amount of 
work to maintain the system. 

Q. — Did you find it necessary to 
use the whip on these convicts when 
you were here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.— Was it frequently? 

A. — No, sir; I think not. I can 
sight you to lots of men here who 
were here the whole six years I was, 
and they will say they never had a 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



319 



cross word from me, but stm there 
are others I punished. 

Q. — What per cent of them did you 
have to punish? 

A. — I would judge about 5 per 
cent. To ^punish ithem maintains 
good discipline, and it will .have a 
good influence over those you do not 
have to punish at all. 

Q. — What do you think of this 10 
cents per diem? 

A. — I don't think it good. 

Q. — You do not think it is good 
policy? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — In 1911 you were here during 
the entire year? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You say the cotton crop was 
about one-half bale to the acre? 

A. : — I can't say. I can not remem- 
ber the exact acreage. 

Q. — Now the cane crop — 

A. — That was during the year of 
the freeze, 1911. We lost lots of 
the crop that year, but I understand 
the Clements Farm got 4,000,000 
pounds of sugar. 

Q. — I notice the farm is credited 
with sale of cane to the Sugar House 
of $88,303.74? 

A. — I don't know anything about 
that. Those accounts were kept at 
Huntsville. 

Q. — I notice also the farm is cred- 
ited with the sale of sugar, $25,413,- 
51? 

A. — I don't know how it got there. 

Q. — The farm certainly did not 
sell any sugar? 

A. — I think that was a mistake? 

Q. — This might have been carried 
over from some previous year? 

A. — I think so. 

Q. — But in 1911, though that was 
the year you had the freeze, still 
you had cane enough to turn out 4,- 
000,000 pounds of sugar? 

A. — Yes, sir; they sold over 4,- 
000,000 pounds of sugar. 

Q. — Is that a pretty good crop? 

A. — No, sir; we ought to have got 
7,000,00 pounds of sugar; just a 
rough estimate, but one and a half 
million pounds of sugar was lost on 
account of not handling the cane 
properly. It was lost on account of 
bad labor and bad management. We 
waited six days on an oil tank at 
the mill. Mr. Brahan and Mr. Tittle 
will recall that I went to Huntsville 
and told them that we had about 
2,800 acres on the Clements Farm 
that bid fair to be a bumper crop, 



and we sent two engines to Hunts- 
ville in February to be repaired, and 

1 saw the engine there at that time 
not repaired. 

Q. — When did you go to Hunts- 
ville? 

A. — August, 1911, and talked to 
them about the necessity of making 
preparation to take off the cane crop 
and taking care of it, and have ev- 
erything in readiness that we might 
harvest the cane crop as soon as pos- 
sible, and on November 1st, I can't 
recall just how many men — I should 
say 400 men — we waited here five 
or six days for a small tower tank 
which had been sent to Huntsville 
and had not been returned to the 
Clements Farm, and the engine sent 
down, instead of the flues being pro- 
perly repaired, was patched up, and 
as soon as we tried to operate it,- 
the flues began to leak again, and we 
could not properly handle the cane 
from the fields to the mill, and the 
additional convicts sent down for the 
purpose of taking off this crop did 
not put forth the proper effort to do 
any work. There was one bunch of 
mutinous white convicts sent to me 
from Rusk who had been in mutiny 
at Rusk for some time, and when we 
took them to the field to work, they 
would not do one-fourth the amount 
of work the negro convicts were do- 
ing on the Clements farm at that 
time, and they were not only disre- 
spectful and impertinent to the 
guards, but to me as manager. 

Q. — Did you manage to get all 
the cane out of the field? 

A. — No, sir. I called Mr. Cabell's 
attention to this in the presence of 
Mr. Williams. He was here with 
Mr. Cabell, and I told him plainly 
that at the rate the convicts were 
working we would never do anything 
with the cane on hand, and I think 
it was the 21st day of November 
when the freeze came — maybe the 

2 3 rd — but much earlier anyway than 
any one freeze we had, and we lost 
considerable cane by the freeze. My 
estimate of the crop, if it could all 
have been saved, we ought to have 
got 7,000,000 pounds of sugar. 

Q. — And on account of this ma- 
chinery not being here and ready, 
how much did you lose? 

A. — If we could have gone into 
the c*ane on the first day of Septem- 
ber with a full force, we could have 
saved much more than we did save. 
We made 2,000,000 pounds anyway 



320 



Report and Findings of 



after the freeze. This is my recol- 
lection, and I don't think there is 
anybody entitled to any credit for 
that. We did the best we could. 

Q. — How much did you make be- 
fore the freeze? 

A. — About 2,000,000 founds of 
sugar. 

Q. — That makes something like 
4,000,00 pounds of sugar? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How does that compare with 
every year? 

A. — About the average, and if the 
cane had been saved we could have 
made a bigger crop than we ever 
did if it had been saved. 

Q. — But even with the freeze you 
had an average year? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did that compare with the 
year before that? 

A. — Yes, sir; in the neighborhood 
of it. 

Q. — You think a conservative es- 
timate of the crop would have been 
7,000,00 pounds, if saved. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you remmber in 1911 if 
they charged you with all the con- 
victs sent you here? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — I notice in 1911 you are 
charged with $37,186.30 for convicts, 
while your maintenance was $61,- 
487.62? 

A. — I don't know how they carried 
these accounts. 

Q. — What crop expense includes, 
you don't know? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Your crop expense and main- 
tenance was $76,600.00, not includ- 
ing the clothing, while the convict 
labor charge was $37,186.00. In 
other words, on these figures your 
maintenance and clothing expense 
was just about twice what it was 
on the other farms. Can you ac- 
count for that? 

A. — No, sir; I cannot. 

Q. — Now, I want to compare with 
the Harlem. You have the same 
number of men here as at the Har- 
lem? 

A. — I had about 500 men when I 
left here. 

Q. — Now the crop expense, main- 
tenance and clothing, 1912, on the 
Clements State Farm total $83,594,- 
64, while the crop expense, mainten- 
ance and clothing on the Imperial 
Farm totals $77,134.40, although 
there were less men on the Clem- 



ens farm than the Imperial. Was 
there any reason why it cost more 
to maintain men at the Clements 
Farm than at the Imperial Farm? 

A. — I can't say say. 

Mr. Brahan states that negroes 
will eat more bacon than white men 
or Mexicans; men clearing more land 
will wear out more clothes; break 
up more tools, and a negro will eat 
one-third more than a Mexican or 
white man. 

Q. — What was your principal class 
of convicts in 1911? 

A. — Negroes. 

Q. — What on the Imperial Farm? 

Mr. Brahan answers: Whites. 
Now I imagine that was one of the 
reasons. 

Q. — Did you clear any land in 1911 
on this place? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many acres? 

A. — I could not say. The Com- 
mission could tell you. 

Q. — You had this place in charge? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Could you estimate it? 

A. — No, sir; I could not. I 
cleared so much land every year, 
but I don't remember what the 
amount of acreage was that I clear- 
ed. 

Q. — Could you tell about what it 
cost per acre to clear without allow- 
ing the 50 cents per day charge on 
convicts? 

A. — Taking everything off? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

A. — About $25.00 per acre. 

Q. — Not allowing anything per 
day for convicts? 

A. — I figure the cost at what 
you could go out and clear land with 
free labor. Figuring labor at $1.00 
per day, it would cost in the neigh- 
borhood of $25.00 per day. 

Q. — What would it cost with con- 
vict labor the way we are working 
under the new law? 

A. — Anywhere from $50.00 to 
$75.00. 

Q. — You claim in 1911 under the 
new law, it would cost that much 
to clear it? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think it was 
so bad then. 

Q. — Now in 1911 we made an av- 
erage amount of sugar for this place? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And your cotton, was that any- 
thing like an average crop? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think so. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



321 



Q. — But you did not have a great 
amount of acreage in cotton? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Yet the Clements State Farm 
shows a loss of $3 7,229.04 for that 
year, although you \were credited 
$25,413.51 for sugar, which certain- 
ly was not made that year, which 
would have increased the loss ii you 
had not had that carried over sugar. 
The actual loss was $62,642.55. Now 
what we are trying to get at is this. 
If there is anything we can do to 
put this farm on a paying basis we 
want to do it, and we are here to 
consult with you as to the best meth- 
od to do it. . Had it not been for the 
sugar raised in 1910, $25,413.51, in- 
stead of your loss being $37,229.04, 
it would have been $62,642.5 5. Of 
course, that just may have been the 
actual loss for the year 1911 for the 
sugar ought not to have been cred- 
ited to the farm that year. What 
would you suggest to the committee 
ought to be done to get the farm on 
a paying basis? 

A. — If an individual owned this 
plantation today it could be oper- 
ated at a profit. 

Q. — Don't you think if an individ- 
ual could do it the State could? 

A. — Yes, sir, and I think the State 
ought to do it. The convict system 
should be made as nearly self-sus- 
taining as possible, but you will nev- 
er do it under the present system. 
In the first place, there are too many 
men- on the farm. You have more 
labor than you need, or can success- 
fully handle on this place. In the 
next place, the labor is not at work 
and I will say this to any man; he can 
never go on these places and hope 
to operate successfully and make 
a crop unless he has discipline and 
a system of doing the work. In 
operating with convicts, I feel it is 
just as necessary to have a system 
as operating with free labor. 

Q.- — The Clements Farm from Jan- 
uary 1, 1910, to January 1, 1911, 
before the present law went into ef- 
fect, shows this farm lost $37,715.60 

A. — Now, right there, I don't feel 
that the system of accounting and 
bookkeeping is fair and just to the 
farm. I don't mean the farm has 
been willfully cheated, but the farm 
has been charged too much for prod- 
ucts such as clothing, shoes and 
everything furnished from the peni- 
tentiary to the farms. Not only un- 



der this administration, but in the 
past. 

Q. — You think that accounts for 
some of it? 

A. — Yes, sir; I do, but not for 
the whole of it. 

Mr. Tittle makes a statement as 
follows: The maintenance item is 
for groceries only. 

Q. — In 1910 there was a loss of 
$37,715.60. Now you understand 
you were charged that year with 
"$53,708.00 for convict labor at 50 
cents per diem for men? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — That was before the lease 
contract had been abolished? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — We can understand how you 
have a surplus of convict labor since 
it was abolished. 

A. — You understand it cost con- 
siderable amount of money to clear 
land up, whether with convict la- 
bor or free labor, and the Clemens 
farm had been continually from year 
to year putting in land, not only 
clearing all the undergrowth, but 
making ties for bridges, etc. When 
I first came on the plantation, there 
was only one bridge, and now the 
i Clements Farm has something like 
16 miles of railroad and at the time 
I left here, I had 563 live oak 
bridges. All that was cut off the land 
and put on the farm. 

Q. — Was that railroad built out 
:of the proceeds of the farm? 

A. — I could not say, but I know of 
the improvements made on the Clem- 
ents Farm. 

Q. — But that was not made out of 
the proceeds of the Clements Farm. 

A. — It was made out of the Clem- 
ents Farm labor. The State has 
never paid for a penny of it. They 
were sawed right here in 1907. 

Q. — That was in 1907? 

A. — That same mill was here in 
1910, and I know that the same con- 
ditions existed, and I will say as to 
!the timber taken off this land, the 
! State has never paid a cent for rail- 
road ties or bridge timber. 

Q. — Did vou get out anv ties in 
1911? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Was that done with convict la- 
bor? 

A. — Yes, sir; and the only expense 
was for the foreman who built the 
railroad; we paid him $60 per month 
for 60 days, and built the railroad 
from Clemens farm to Brazoria, and 



322 



Report and Findings of 



replaced all the pole ties with sawed 
ties from the plantation. 

Q. — And yet you are only charged 
with convict lcbor, $37,186.30? 

A. — I could not go into detail and 
tell you what was cleared each year. 

Mr. Brahan states: I think you 
had cleared 1,000 acres of land up 
to the time you left here. 

Q. — But these other . farms here 
where you cleared land there is an 
item account for expense charged to 
clearing land. That is the reason I 
asked how many acres had been 
cleared. What was the total amount 
of acres in cultivation here when 
you came? 

A. — I judge about 2,00u or 2,500 
acres. 

Q. — In cultivation when you came 
here? 

A. — -Yes, sir; in 1907. 

Q. — .Did you clear any land on 
this plantation prior to 1911? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Could you give us an estimate 
between 1907 and 1912 of how much 
land you cleared? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many acres in cultiva- 
tion now? 

A. — I don't know now, but last 
year something like 4000 acres. 

Q. — Would the clearing of land av- 
erage about the same each year? 

A. — (No respense. ) 

Q. — Did you clear some every 
year? 

A. — The most land I cleared was 
the first three years, 1907, 1908, and 
1909. I cleared more acreage dur- 
ing those years than in 1910 and 
1911. 

Q. — And the total number of acres 
has been the difference between the 
2000 acres or 2 5 00 acres when you 
came here and about 4,000 acres 
when you left. 

Senator Willacy interrogates Cap- 
tain E. B. Mills: 

Q. — Captain Mills, what is the to- 
tal number of acres you have in cul- 
tivation now? 

A. — 5,509 acres. 

Q. — How much land have you 
cleared since you came here? 

A. — It would only be a guess, of 
course, but I think between 8 00 and 
1000 acres. 

Senator Willacy resumes the in- 
terrogation of Mr. Brooks: 

Q. — Were you here when the rail- 
road was built? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Q. — That extends from what point 
to Clements? 

A. — That extends from Brazoria to 
the Clements farm, and afterwards to 
the old Ogburn place. 

Q. — Is that where the sugar mill 
now stands? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is the railroad used for any 
other purpose than to haul the State's 
products? 

A. — I can only speak up to the time 
I left. I hauled freight on it occa- 
sionally. 

Q. — For other people? 

A. — Y'es, sir ; but it. would not 
amount to much. 

Q. — Bo you have much to haul for 
the State except in the cane season? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many miles of railroad is 
that? 

A. — May be a fraction over or a 
fraction under fourteen miles. 

Q. — Has any been built since? 

A. — Y'es, sir; Captain Mills 'built 
some new road. 

Captain E. B. Mills states: I built 
about one and one-half miles. 

Q. — Can you tell us the weight your 
steel was per yard? 

A. — Some sixty and some forty. I 
could not say what proportion sixty 
and forty. 

Q. — Were they new or old rails? 

A. — Second hand rails. There were 
five miles of new rails that were put 
down in 1908, 60-pound rails. 

Q. — While you were here, you fur- 
nished labor from this farm to do that 
work in addition to doing the farm 
work ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And it ought to be credited to 
this labor? 

A. — Y'es ,sir. 

Q. — Did you also cut the ties? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Cut the timber, and cut the ties 
and placed them on the railroad, and 
built the bridges? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you have an engineer in 
charge in building the railroad? 

A. — No, sir. An engineer gave us 
a level from Brazoria to the State 
farm, and that was all. 

Q. — Y'ou had no other engineering 
assistance and only had one citizen for 
sixty days in laying the steel? 

A. — Y r es. sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
the cost of railroad . construction to 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



323 



tell the committee what was the cost 
per mile? 

A. — No, sir ; I could not tell you. 

Q. — Did you purchase any engines 
or cars? 

A. — We bought two engines, I be- 
lieve. Mr. Wright bought two second 
hand engines. 

Q. — Do you know what he paid for 
them? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Were they here when you left? 

A. — One was here, and the other at 
Huntsville for repairs. 

Q. — About how many cars did you 
purchase? 

A. — I should say fourteen flat cars 
from Eusk. The tram cars were five 
ton tram cars. A number of these have 
to be rebuilt every year, but this lum- 
ber is not plantation lumber. It is 
pine lumber and bought at the mill. 

Q. — The principal purpose of the 
railroad was to accommodate the su- 
gar mill? 

A. — Yes, sir, and the plantation. 

Q. — Do you think that a good in- 
vestment, Captain Brooks? 

A. — Y"es, sir. I don't see how we 
could operate without the railroad. 

Q. — I notice the sugar mill of 1912 
had a credit of sugar molasses and 
black strap of $56,270.93, but the cost 
to the State for making that was 
$55,152.42, which leaves a profit of 
$1,118.51, and yet it calls for an in- 
vestment of 15 1-2 miles of railroad 
to take care of the sugar mill that 
only clears $1,118.51. In other words, 
we have tied up the cost of 15 1-2 miles 
of railroad to accommodate a sugar 
mill that only shows a profit of 
$1118.15. 

A. — Well, we are situated away from 
any line of railroad. Formerly we 
had a tramway that ran down to th % 
river and freight had to be handled by 
boat to cars at Velasco. I don't set' 
how you could operate a plantation of 
this size as far as we are from a rail- 
road point without any trackage con- 
nected to it. 

Q. — Now we can only make $1,118.51 
out of the sugar mill, and we lose 
$7 8,7 87.7 6 off the farm; it is cer- 
tainly not a good investment, then, 
to put a lot of money in a railroad. 
Before you bought the sugar mill, 
what did you plant the plantation in? 

A. — Thev built the sugar mill in 
1901. 

Q. — With a railroad we are still los- 
ing $78,787.76 on the farm? 

A. — I understood vou to attribute 



the loss to the railroad. I think it 
was a bad investment putting in the 
railroad. 

Q. — Why, it certainly was a bad in- 
vestment putting in the railroad to ac- 
commodate a plant that made only 
$1,118.51. 

Senator Willacj" interrogates Mr. 
B rah an : 

Q. — Is the cost of operation of that 
road charged to the farm? 

A. — It is charged to the mill or farm 
one. It is now operated with twelve 
yoke of steers. 

Mr. Brahan interrogates Mr. Smith, 
chief engineer : 

Q. — How is the operation of that 
railroad charged? 

A. — Up to the sugar mill. 

Senator Willacy resumes the inter- 
rogation of Mr. Brooks : 

Q. — You operated this farm until 
August, 1912? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you had occasion to use 
punishment since the new law went 
into effect? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Had they abolished the use of 
the whip at the time you left? 

A. — Y"es, sir. 

Q. — Have you had occasion to chain 
up a man since the new law went into 
effect? 

A. — We chained up some mutinous 
men. 

Q — Which do you consider the most 
cruel, the chain or the whip? 

A.--I think the chain. If you get 
hold of a big, stout man who is hard 
to control and make him conform to 
the prison discipline, and you punish 
him with a chain to accomplish your 
results, it is apt to cripple him. 

Q. — I have no objection to having 
this go on the record, or for anybody 
to know I think the whip is practically 
ssential, and that it is less cruel than 
the chain, but what we want to know 
is: does the chain accomplish as much 
• s the whip would to get work out of 
men? 

A. — Now, I don't think so. 

Q. — We are adopting a more cruel 
Kthod than the whip and get less 
results? 

A. — Yes, sir ; and it is more danger- 
ous to life. Now, I brought a man 

■1 of the field for plowing up cotton. 

t was about 11 o'clock, and I walked 

about a quarter of a mile and chained 

dm up, and inside of thirty minutes 

the guard called me from the building 

and ^aid something was the matter 



324 



Report and Findings of 



with this man. and this man was ac- 
tually in a fainting condition, and I 
let him down, and he was trembling 
like that (indicating by shaking" his 
hands). T did not chain him up with 
his feet off the ground, and in thirty 
minutes time I took him down, and if 
I had not let him down when I did I 
believe that uin could have been dan- 
gerously hurt. 

Q. — You think the best discipline 
could be had by a reasonable amount 
of whipping? 

A. — Yes. sir. T think with a very 
small per cent. Tt would be absolute- 
ly necessary to punish the fed low who 
did not make any effort to do right, 
and if yon require all the convicts to 
conform to the prison discipline you 
ran gel all the work you want. 

Q. — Now. one more question: during 
the time yon were in charge of this 
plantation, and up to the time yon 
left, especially recent years, did von 
have any trouble in regard to drunken- 
ness with your guards? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you know of any instance 
where whiskey was given to convicts? 

A. — One instance: an engineer 
bought some whiskey from a free ne- 
gro at I'.ra/oria and gave sonic to a 
Convict, and occasionally T have known 
convicts to get a bottle of whiskey at 
Brazoria, l>nt not any great amount 
of drunkenness. 

Q. — Did you allow any drunkenness 
on the part of your guards? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Any drunkenness at all? 

A. — No, sir: I endeavored at all 
times to raise the standard of the 
guards. 

Q. — How is the standard of a guard. 
or how was it up to the time you left 
as to former years? 

A.— 1 don't see any great difference. 
There are good and bad men since 1 
have been connected with this busi- 
ness, and now and then you have to 
tire a man. 

Q. — In appointing the guards are 
you required to appoint them politi- 
cally, or do you appoint them as to 
merit? 

A. — They never make a difference 
in this. 

Q. — Were you required to appoint 
them on some politician's recommen 
dation, or were you allowed to ap- 
point them as to merit? 

A. — No, sir ; they never bothered me 
about any political point at all. 



By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — Who was the bookkeeper here? 

A.— John T. Nickson. 

Q. — When did the present bookkeep- 
er come in? Do you know when Mr. 
Mason came in? 

A. — No, sir ; I do not. 

Q. — You spoke awhile ago of the 
mismanagement on the part of the 
Commissioners; did you state all the 
mismanagement that had come under 
your observation? 

A.— T meant this : The proper busi- 
ness methods should have been used 
to take care of the cane crop in 1911, 
as T consider the great loss was due 
to the freeze. 

Q. — Do you recall any other things? 

A. — Now, I don't think, in justice to 
the farm, that mutinous convicts 
should be sent out from Huntsville, 
as in 1911, and I told Mr. Drahan and 
Mr. Cabell so. 

Q. — Now, any other specific instances 
of mismanagement? 

A. — No, sir, 

Q. — A large part of bad discipline 
was on account of mutinous convicts 
sent here? 

A. — Yes. sir. 

Q. — In the handling of mutinous 
convicts, do yon think it a good idea 
to chain a, bunch of mutinous men to- 
gether and leave them where they can 
have free conversation, or would you 
handle them in separate cells? 

A. — Now, I am going to cite you 
to a bunch of mutinous men. They 
made all sorts of threats, etc. We 
have no place to — 

Q. — Is it difficult to handle mutin- 
ous men when you chain them up to- 
gether and leave them together? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — It is difficult to control them 
when you handle them that way? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — They should be handled in sepa- 
rate cells? 

A. — I don't think so, and when the 
matter is investigated and it is proven 
there was no just cause for his stop- 
ping work, he should be punished, 
but in the absence of the strap I would 
do this. The dark cell has no terrors 
for them. 

Q.— You have not been on the farm 
this year? 

A. — No. sir. Now, Mr. Moore said 
the convicts had got the impression 
the leaders of the mutinies would be 
pardoned if Governor Colquitt was de- 
feated. Now, I want to cite you to 
an instance of mutiny. It was a bunch 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



325 



of convicts that came down from Rusk, 
and in January, the next year, there 
were some thirty odd white men mu- 
tinied at this place, and I 'phoned 
the Commissioners, and Mr. Palmer 
came down here and investigated the 
matter. I was instructed to cut off 
the food and water from those con- 
victs, and on the third day, after con- 
ferring with Dr. Hamphill, the physi- 
cian, he advised me we could not 
bring the convicts to terms that way 
without endangering the lives of some 
of the weaker convicts, and I gave 
them food and advised the Commis- 
sion that I had done so. Mr. Ca- 
bell and Mr. Tittle came down and in- 
vestigated this mutiny, and there was 
a man by the name of Beverly Woods, 
the main leader, who cursed the 
guards, sergeants, myself and the 
doctor, and swore that he would never 
do any more work. Mr. Cabell, in his 
talk to these men, did not tell them 
whether they would be punished 01 
not, but left me orders to punish them. 
Several days after that they wrote me 
a letter, and Mr. Cabell stated that he 
felt from the fact that I had made the 
statement the bread was bad on one 
particular day, that there was some 
cause on the part of the convicts for 
this mutiny. These convicts were 
transferred in a few days to the Im- 
perial farm, and I understand this 
Beverly Woods, leader of this mutiny, 
was ordered made a trusty by Mr. 
Cabell, and that he made his escape 
from the Imperial farm in a very short 
time after that. I don't know where 
Mr. Moore had his information, biit I 
know in my operations on the Clem- 
ents farm there were no convicts re- 
warded for leading a mutiny. There 
was not a convict on the Clements 
farm that I said a word about reward- 
ing for mutiny against the adminis- 
tration. 

Q. — Briefly summarizing your charge, 
Mr. Cabell rewarded Beverly Woods 
for leading a mutiny here? 

A. — Yes, sir ; it looks that way. Be- 
fore I knew anything about Beverly 
Woods he complained about cutting 
wood and could not keep up. Dr. 
Hamphill needed: a helper in the hos- 
pital, and we put him in there, and 
in four days after he was put in there 
a guard asked him to blow out the 
light. Be said : "That is not my work ; 
I was put in here to give medicine 
and wait on the sick." I wrote Mr. 
Cabell about this instance, and told 
him I could not trust the man, and — 



By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q- — Do you know where he was sent 
up from? 

A. — No, sir; he was a sixty-year 
man for murder. 

Q. — Mr. John Moore states he was 
sent up from Limestone county. 

A. — And Mr. Cabell knew this con- 
vict had stood up in the building and 
cursed us all for d — s — of b — , and 
I made the statement to Mr. Cabell 
that if those men had cause to com- 
plain about their food, that there were 
500 men on the same place that had 
the same complaint. I asked him to 
make a thorough investigation, and if 
I was to blame not to hesitate to say 
so. He did not say I was to blame. 
Now, this was the very tightest time 
of the year, and there was no reason 
why they should not work like other 
men instead of cursing the guards and 
not working. Now, Mr. Cabell knew 
the facts and to order him transferred 
to another farm and turned out as a 
trusty looks to me like a reward for 
leading a mutiny. 

Mr. Brahan makes the statement 
that he thought Captain Addison re- 
quested that he be made a trusty ; that 
he believed he could handle him and 
get along with him, and make him a 
good man. "I think this is a fact, but 
I don't know. I will not make this 
statement positively." 

Mr. Tittle says he thinks the state- 
ment of Mr. Brahan is correct. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — When did this happen? 

A.— 1911. 

Q. — When did he come here? 

A. — The mutiny was in January, 
1912. 

Q. — How long after the mutiny was 
the man transferred? 

A. — Several days after. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy : 

Q. — Was he made a trusty after be- 
ing transferred? 

A. — Yes, sir ; and escaped. He went 
in the commissary and got some citi- 
zens clothes and — 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — Did you and Mr. Cabell have 
any conversation about this incident 
after that? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You never spoke to him after 
that? 

A. — No, sir. After I went out of the 
service I wrote on the back of the or- 
der to punish them, "not executed." 

Mr. Tittle states : "I had a letter 
from him at that time stating that the 
orders had not been executed, and I 



326 



Report and Findings of 



wanted to know why, and he wrote me 
he had orders from Mr. Cabell, and 
did not do it on account of a letter 
from Mr. Cabell. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — What are your personal feelings 
toward Mr. Cabell? 

A. — Nothing 1 but good feelings for 
anyone. 

Q. — Did this incident have anything 
to do with your resignation? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did the fact you supported 
Ramsey have anything to do with 
your resignation? 

A. — In a way it did. I resigned of 
my own free will. T could not ask the 
Commission to retain me when I did 
not support the Governor Who had ap- 
pointed me. 

Q. — Then yon think a man's politi- 
cal affiliation has something to do 
with his farming operations? 

A. — No. sir. I could not make the 
men mind me : the guards, assistant 
manager or anybody else, and I knew 
I could do nothing for the State, and 
I supported Ramsey, hoping Ramsey 
would be elected and that conditions 
woidd be better. It was my own free 
will that T did it. 

Q. — Were there any other Ramsey 
men who resigned from the service? 

A. — Not that I know of. 

Q. — Were there not some other men 
who resigned who supported Ramsey? 

A. — T think it made a clean sweep. 
Everything was let out except a few 
guards. 

Q. — Who were some of the men let- 
out who were Ramsey supporters? 

A. — I don't like much for this to 
go in the records. Don't enter this in 
the records. I am not going to make 
this statement. 

Chairman Mayes requests stenogra- 
pher to put all his statement in rec- 
ord. 

Q. — If this penitentiary system is 
used as a political asset the State 
should know it. 

A. — I only ask that I explain my 
idea and then put it in the record as 
you want it. 

Q. — But you did state all the Ram- 
sey men were discharged. 

A. — They certainly quit, as they 
left the place. 

Mr. Tittle interrogates Mr. Brooks : 

Q. — Did you make a statement to 
Mr. Cabell at any time during the 
year 1912 tha: you were going to' sup- 
port Governor Colquitt? 

A. — No, sir ; I told Mr. Cabell just 



after the Drohibition election that 
some of my friends got after me be- 
cause I voted the anti ticket, and I 
told them I voted the anti ticket be- 
cause I wanted it. 

Q. — This committee would like to 
have a list of the men who were dis- 
charged or resigned. 

A. — I would not make this statement 
because it is a matter I know noth- 
ing about, but I would not blame them 
the least bit in the world if they had 
discharged me. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy : 

Q. — Was it your understanding that 
no one would be acceptable as a guard 
or officer unless he supported the ad- 
ministration? 

A. — No, sir; I never asked a man 
about his politics or who employed 
him. 

By R. B." Humphrey: 

Q. — Where do you vote? 

A. — At Brazoria. 

Q. — Do you remember what was the 
total for the Governor's box? 

Mr. Smith answers: 38 for Ramsey 
and 1 for Colquitt. 

Q. — That was the votes of the guards 
and citizens? 

A. — That was guards and all; I don't 
think Colquitt got but one citizen's 
vote. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — Let's get back to the question ; 
what Ramsey men were let out? 

A. — B. W. Ross, assistant sergeant; 
W. R. Davis, assistant sergeant ; J. H. 
Harrison, assistant sergeant, and 
John Nickson, bookkeeper; I don't 
know anything about the guards; 
they come and go all the time. 

0. — Can you give me any others? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What Ramsey men were left in 
the service? 

A. — I could not say anything about 
the guards ; I don't know why they 
were left. 

Q.— Are there any Ramsey men re- 
tained in the service here? 

A. — I know of two. I would rather 
not give their names unless you re- 
quire it. One is a guard and the other 
is a stock man, subordinate positions, 
however. I don't make the statement 
that there were only two Ramsey men 
on the place. 

Q. — The reason we are asking these 
questions, it has been frequently sta- 
ted the penitentiary system was made 
a political asset of this administra- 
tion? 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



327 



A. — It has been my experience with 
the Prison Commission it would not 
cut any case in politics in selecting the 
employees. They did not require me 
to take any special men. They never 
required me to employ a man objec- 
tionable to me. 

Mr. Brahan interrogates Mr. Brooks : 

Q.— During- the anti-prohibition cam- 
paign between Bamse3' and Colquitt, 
did I ever ask how you would vote, or 
how any man would vote, or anything 
like that? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did I not always say to you 
that any man on this place, from top 
to bottom, not satisfactory to you, 
whenever you made an objection to 
him, I would recommend his dismis- 
sal from the system? 

A.— Yes, sir. 

By Judge W. 0. Diffie : 

Q. — Who did you vote for the first 
time? 

A. — I voted for Judge Poindexter. 
I want to state right there that at 
the time the Commission took charge 
of the penitentiary, that I said to the 
Commission that I had voted for Judge 
Poindexter for Governor, and that 
Governor Colquitt or his administra- 
tion did not owe me anything ; that 
I did not work for him and voted 
against him. If they thought they 
had a better man for manager of the 
Clements farm than I had been, then I 
felt like it was their duty to place 
him in charge. If they saw fit to re- 
tain me in the service after seeing the 
evidence of my work for the past four 
years, I would promise them my best 
efforts. I had no recommendation nor 
indorsement, and did not feel I needed 
any. 

By Mr. Tittle : 

Q. — Did I ever mention politics to 
you? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — If, as you say, you voted for 
Poindexter the first time and did not 
support Governor Colquitt the first 
time, and did not think it incumbent 
on you to resign then, why did you 
think so the second time? 

A. — No member of the Commission 
will say that I had an endorsement on 
my part, and for them to get out and 
support me was like a Methodist par- 
son running a church with Baptist 
members. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — Whether you supported Eamsey 
or Colquitt, it made very little differ- 



ence as to your efficiency as farm 
manager did it not? 

A. — I had gotten along pleasantly 
with the Commissioners, and if they 
had cause to complain they never com- 
plained to me. 

By Mr. Brahan : 

Q. — After the election in August, if 
I had seen fit to have sent you to the 
Eamsey or Harlem farm, don't you 
think it would have been satisfactory 
to you? 

A. — I believe in justice to the Prison 
Commission, if they ever hoped to 
maintain the farms successfully or 
make any money out of them, that 
every man on these plantations should 
be subjected to the managers. No 
man can operate a farm without all 
authority on it. When J. A. Herring 
appointed me as superintendent on the 
Clements farm, I told him I was not 
a Campbell man. He said it made no 
difference ; I have only one appoint- 
ment to make, and will ask you to 
not keep any man on the place who is 
not giving the State the service they 
ought to have. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — If the manager shows any inef- 
ficiency you think he ought to be re- 
moved? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — Have you any suggestion to 
make for improving the farming sys- 
tem of the penitentiary? 

A. — My idea is it would be much 
better to operate the penitentiary sys- 
tem under one man instead of three. 
No matter how good they are, they will 
differ ; they all have the same author- 
ity ; what is "Dick's business is Tom's," 
and you cannot make a success out of 
it unless it is operated by one man.. 

Q.— Any other suggestions? 

A. — No, sir ; only I believe they 
should maintain discipline and require 
more work of the men ; at least as 
much as a free man owning a farm. 
By Judge W. O. Diffie: 

Q. — There has been a good deal said 
in regard to the width of the strap in 
case one is used on a convict. I wish 
you would state what size strap you 
think is necessary, and the good ac- 
complished by it. 

A. — I don't think the width or 
length of the strap makes any differ- 
ence. I don't think it necessary to 
abuse the convicts, or that any con- 
vict be punished without just cause. 



328 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Which would cut the skin the 
least — a two or a four-inch strap? 

A. — I think a narrow strap would 
cut it the most. There is no excuse for 
cutting the flesh at all. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey : 

Q. — You spoke a minute ago in re- 
gard to discipline. Has it been your 
experience the kind of punishment for 
white men would not be best for ne- 
groes? 

A. — I think the same thing for all 
colors. You take a convict who won't 
do anything ; it is discouraging to the 
better convicts. I believe it is just as 
necessary to maintain discipline among 
convicts as soldiers. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson : 

Q. — Following up the question of 
Mr. Humphrey, you find since the use 
of the strap has been abolished there 
has been more mutinies than before? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think that is the direct 
cause of it? 

A. — Yes, sir; in a way it is. I be- 
lieve right from the start of the ad- 
ministration copies of tin* new law 
were sent out to the managers with 
instructions to distribute them among 
the convicts and guards. I am very 
free to say I did that because it was 
the law, and the convicts in a very 
short time were as familiar with the 
law as 1 was. They knew wherein 
that law was complied with and where 
it was not complied with, and with a 
Southern negro when you fail to make 
your promise good once, his confidence 
is shaken for all time, and the law 
provides those negroes should be paid 
10 cents per day. and should be paid 
for overtime, and at the time the per 
diem was due and the overtime was due 
they looked for it. An ignorant negro 
does not know how to take "why's 
and wherefores." and we had to make 
excuses, and that had a tendency to 
demoralize the convicts. 

Q. — I see here in the audit of 1910 
you bought sugar to fill a contract, 
$16,000.00. Do you remember of the 
Clements farm making a contract for 
the delivery of sugar that made it 
necessary for them to go in the open 
market and purchase $16,000.00 worth 
of sugar? 

A. — No, sir. I don't know anything 
about the operation. 

Q. — In the audit of the Clements 
farm operations for 1912, the proper- 
ties and improvements are inventoried 
at $771,267.52. From j^our knowledge 
of the value of these lands and im- 



provements, would you estimate this 
to be the fair value of this property? 

A. — I have not gone over those fig- 
ures. I would not be able to answer 
that. 

Q. — I have never introduced the po- 
litical question, but as it has been 
brought up by yourself, there are one 
or two questions I would like to ask. 
Do you recall the vote at the box in 
the first election of Governor Colquitt? 
is it not a fact he carried the box? 

A. -] think he did with three ex- 
ceptions. 

Q. — And on his second term he re- 
ceived only four votes? 

A. — That is in the neighborhood of 
the vote. 

Q. — Did T understand you to say you 
went into the primary fight? 

A. — Yes, sir ; I voted for Judge Ram- 
sey. 

Q. — You took an active part in the 
campaign? 

A. Yes. sir. 

Q. — Have you stated in the appoint- 
ment to office under Governor Col- 
quitt's first term no question was asked 
regarding the political preferences of 
any man appointed for any service in 
the penitentiary system? 

A. — No, sir ; I dont' say that. I know 
nothing only what pertains to the 
Clements farm. 

Q. — Do you think you did your full 
part in the administration of the af- 
fairs of this system under that admin- 
istration to take an active part in 
politics against the administration 
that appointed you, when in no in- 
stance had political affiliation entered 
into the appointments to positions on 
the farm? Do you think you acted in 
good faith toward the administration 
in doing so? 

A. — I feel that I gave the Commis- 
sion, and believe they will bear me 
out in this statement, the best ser- 
vice my ability permitted. I don't feel 
politics affected me one way or the 
other. 

Q. — Does not the fact that Governor 
Colquitt received only four votes in 
this box at the last primary, which 
he carried almost unanimously in the 
preceding primary, prove that the in- 
fluence exerted by you in the cam- 
paign was very great? 

A. — Yes, sir, I think so. 

Q. — Do you think you can eliminate 
politics from the penitentiary system 
when a man appointed without any 
regard to political affiliation, after ac- 
cepting that appointment will take an 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



329 



active part against the administration 
that appointed him? 

A. — Xo. sir. 

Q. — You have admitted your influ- 
ence here is illustrated in the fact that 
Governor Colquitt carried this box the 
first primary and lost it in the sec- 
ond? 

A. — Yes. sir. 

Q. — Now. the guards all knew you 
were actively engaged in the last cam- 
paign : did not all the convicts know 
your attitude in the Governor's race? 

A. — Y r es, sir. 

Q. — Do you think the knowledge of 
your attitude affected the disciplir^ 
among the convicts? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Don't you think it was calculated 
to have done so? 

A. — I don't think so. Not a single 
convict, unless possibly some trusty. 
has heard me say who I was going to 
vote for. and I never went around and 
asked a man on the place to vote for 
Colquitt or Ramsey, but still I am 
confident some guards voted for him 
because they knew I was for Ram- 
sey; still I never went to any man 
and asked him to vote for Ramsey. 

Q. — Yfou could retain your self-re- 
spect by voting your sentiments, but 
could you retain your self-respect by 
getting out and using your influence 
with the guards and — 

A. — I never did anything of that 
kind to any man. Y"ou left the infer- 
ence, but you are wrong. 

Q. — Here is the point : those guards 
knew it and the convicts knew it, and 
it must have affected the discipline 
and attitude toward those convicts to- 
ward authority? 

A. — I do not think so. 

Q. — This is what I mean : you have 
the same right as any citizen to vote 
for Ramsey or anyone else, but after 
accepting the appointment under the 
Colquitt administration, giving you a 
position of authority here, which po- 
sition would carry -weight and exert 
influence over those under you ; now, 
I would ask you if you think you did 
right and maintained good faith with 
the State in using your influence as 
manager against the administration? 

A. — I deny I used the influence as 
manager against Colquitt. I can cite 
you to a number of citizens here who 
were for him the first time, and the 
second time they were directly against 
him. 



Q. — Y'ou stated a while ago that the 
result of the primary was due to your 
efforts. 

A. — I said partly due to my ef- 
forts, but no guard voted for Ramsey 
under any command from me. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — Did you regard that accepting 
employment under these Prison Com- 
missioners carried with it any obliga- 
tion, expressed or implied, that you 
would vote in the future or use your 
influence for Governor Colquitt? 

A. — None whatever. 



MONDAY/, MAY/ 26. 1913, AT CLEM- 
ENTS STATE FARM. 

Testimony by Fred B. Smith. 

Night Session. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy : 

Q. — Give the stenographer your 
name in full. 

A.— Fred B. Smith. 

Q. — What position do you hold in 
the penitentiary system ? 

A. — Master mechanic. 

Q.— On what farm? 

A. — Clements farm. 

Q. — As master mechanic what do you 
have charge of? 

A. — I have charge of the sugar mill 
and the general operation of the rail- 
road, and all mechanical machinery on 
the State farm. 

Q. — You have charge of all mechan- 
ical machinery? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Y T ou run the sugar mill, do you? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And between grinding seasons 
what do you do? 

A. — Look after the repairs of the 
sugar mill, and the general repairs of 
the machinery over the farm — saw 
mills, laundry, pumping machinery, 
railroad and all in that line. 

Q. — You also have charge of the 
engine at the gin? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Also the electric plant? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What size electric plant have you 
got here now? 

A. — We have a small plant — about 
200 lights. 

Q. — What horse power is that? 

A. — We run about fifteen. 

Q. — What kind of power? 

A. — Steam. 

Q. — How long have you been in 
charge of this sugar mill? 

A. — This particular mill — two years. 



330 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Yon were here in 1911? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you tell the committee how 
much cane was ground that year? 

A. — Thirty thousand and some odd 
tons ground that year. 

Q. — What is the capacity of that 
mill? 

A. — Twelve hundred daily capacity — 
twenty-four hours. 

Q.— When yon have not enough cane 
to run the mill to its capacity what 
effect has it from an economical stand- 
point ? 

A. — A loss. 

Q. — Do you find it to be a loss when 
von keep on g-rinding under its capac- 
ity? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And when you have to shut down 
for want of cane, what does that rep- 
resent? 

A. — That represents a very great 
loss. 

Q. — What does it cost for each ton? 

A. — It costs us about $178.00 per 
day, twenty-four hours a day, for run- 
ning — labor, fuel and everything else. 
If we have to take and shut down, of 
course, it increases. You might say 
from 15 to 20 per cent. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the cost 
of grinding sugar? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.- — In order to make a sugar mill 
of this capacity pay, how much cane 
would you have to grind in a season? 

A. — We ought to grind in the neigh- 
borhood of 1.100 tons daily — fifty to 
sixty thousand tons per season. 

Q. — -That would give about sixty days 
running, Sundays excluded? 

A. — Yes, sir. In fact, we shut down 
every Sunday : takjj and boil out all 
the vats, and clean up everything, 
which makes it more economical than 
to stop during the week. 

Q. — But a sugar plant of this capac- 
ity, if you could not run 60 days or 
grind as much as 50,000 tons, would 
it not be a loss? 

A. — If we could grind as much as 
50,000 tons of cane it "would not be a 
loss. 

Q. — -How long has this mill been in 
operation ? 

A. — Since 1902. 

Q. — You have only been in charge 
two years? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know anything about its 
operation since 1902? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Q. — Could you tell the committee as 
to the average number of tons of cane 
ground each year prior to the time you 
assumed charge? 

A. — N/o, sir. 

Q. — Do jou know how much acreage 
in cane is planted on this plantation? 

A. — Nothing more than what I have 
heard Mr. Mills say ; in the neighbor- 
hood of twenty-three hundred acres. 

Q. — Have you any idea as to what 
the number of tons per acre the sugar 
land on this plantation will yield in 
the past two years? 

A. — I have seen it as high as thirty 
tons, but eighteen to twenty tons is 
a good average. That is, for twenty- 
three hundred acres, it would be a 
mighty good average. 

Q. — You came here in 1911 in the 
fall? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You ground cane for 1911? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How much did you grind that 
year ? 

A. — In the neighborhood of 30,000 
tons. 

Q. — How much cane did you grind 
in 1912? 

A.— 9,147 tons. 

Q. — In neither case did you have 
enough tonnage to make it profitable 
to handle? 

A. — In the 1911 crop, if it had not 
been for the setback we would have 
done very well, but we had had cane, 
and was late in starting. 

Q. — Did you have any trouble in get- 
ting your supplies that year? 

A. — Yes, sir ; we waited eleven days 
on a steel tower tank. 

Q. — And that tower tank was nec- 
essary to operate the mill? 

A. — Yes, sir ; we could not start with- 
out it. 

Q. — When did you make requisition 
for that tank? 

A. — On the 10th day of August. 

Q.— On whom? 

A. — It was made through the office 
at Huntsville on the machine shop 
there. 

Q. — If you had ordered that tank 
through some other manufacturer, 
could you have had it on time? 

A. — I don't see any reason why we 
should not. 

Q. — Did you know anything about 
the cost? 

A. — $38.00. I suppose $75.00 or $80.00 
would cover the whole cost. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



331 



Q. — Do you know how much was 
charged against the Clements Sugar 
House for this tank? 

A.— $142.00. 

Q. — What would have been a fair 
value for this tank had we purchased 
it from some private dealer? 

A. — 1 think $75.00 or $80.00. 

Q.— You think $142.00 for this tank 
was an overcharge? 

A.— I do. 

Q. — In addition to this overcharge 
on this tank, what loss do you think 
the sugar mill sustained on account 
of the delay? 

A. — About one-half million pounds of 
sugar. 

Q. — What was that sugar worth a 
pound? 

A. — About $3.88 a hundred ; some- 
thing like $20,000.00. 

Q— So the tank cost about $20,000? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did anything- else delay the op- 
eration of the sugar mill that year? 

A. — Well, we were waiting on a lo- 
comotive and the tank at the same 
time. We got the locomotive just be- 
fore we got the tank. 

Q. — How long- did you wait on the 
locomotive? 

A. — We had been waiting on it for a 
month or more. 

Q. — Was it ordered a new locomo- 
tive? 

A. — No, sir ; one to be repaired. 

Q. — Was it sent to Hnntsville? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Was there any great amount of 
repairing needed? 

A. — Nothing especially, except over- 
hauling and a new fire box. 

Q. — At what time was the engine 
sent to Huntsville that year for re- 
pairs? 

A. — I was not here at the time, and 
do not know how long it was before 
it was shipped there. 

Q. — How long was it there? 

A. — About six months. 

Q. — What does it cost to send a loco- 
motive from here to the Hnntsville 
shops? 

A.— About $128.00, I believe. 

Q. — Tt cost about the same to get 
it back? 

A. — Same thing, yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know anything about the 
charge made against the Clements Su- 
gar House for repairs on engine? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You could not say if that work- 
could have been done as cheaply in an- 
other neighborhood shop? 

A. — Yes. sir. 



Q. — Equally as well? 

A. — Yes, sir ; if not better. 

Q. — And you are a machinist by pro- 
fession,? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And you think the locomotive 
shops can do better work? 

A. — The averag-e machinists don't 
understand locomotive work, and there- 
fore, I think they can do a better job 
than in Huntsville. 

Q. — When a locomotive is returned to 
the Clements farm after being repaired 
in our shops at Huntsville, do you find 
any difficulty in operation? 

A. — Yes. sir ; we had trouble with 
that one. 

Q. — Very much? 

A. — Yes, sir ; the fire box leaked so 
that we had to ship it back. 

Q. — Where is it now? 

A. — In Huntsville. 

Q. — Did they put in a new tire box 
when it was shipped to Huntsville? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did the fire box leak, or the 
flues? 

A. — The crown box leaked, and flues, 
both. 

Q. — What kind of water have you 
here? 

A. — Comparatively good. 

Q. — Am' minerals? 

A. — None much ; very little. 

Q. — Do you have your boilers washed 
out frequently? 

A. — Every Sunday. 

Q. — How long you say they have been 
in Huntsville this time? 

A. — Since the 12th day of January 
a year ago. 

A. — And you are depending on that 
to handle this year's crop? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Tly Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — What did you do last year? 

A. — Rented two locomotives ; one 
from the Southern and the other from 
the T. & G. N. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy : 

Q. — At what price? 

A. — $7.o0 per day for each. 

Q. — How long did you have them? 

A. We had on freight, and locomo- 
tives included. $S40.00charged. 

Q. — Did you have any repairs to 
make on those locomotives you rented? 

A. — No. sir. 

Q. — Have you any idea, or have you 
been advised, whether or not you will 
receive the State's locomotive this year 
in time to handle the crop? 

A. — T am informed we will have one 
in two weeks. 



332 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Were you informed you would 
have them last year, and they did not 
come? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And they did not come? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many days did you use 
those locomotives? 

A. — We got No. 41 about the first 
day of November and kept it until the 
22nd day of December. The other we 
got about two weeks later and kept 
it until the 27th day of December. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes : 

Q. — What are you using- for locomo- 
tives now? 

A. — Oxen. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — You have use for your railway 
track during- the grinding- season? 

A. — Yes, sir, mostly ; but we have a 
good deal of freight to handle in and 
out of Brazoria. I judge three or four 
carloads a week. 

Q. — You think it will pay to give 
$7.50 per day for an engine, in addi- 
tion to the fireman and train crew, in 
order to handle three or four cars ptr 
week. 

A. — No. sir ; we have not got any now 
at all. 

Q. — But you really have use for train 
service about two months in the year? 

A. — During the grinding season. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
keeping these cars in repair? 

A. — The cane cars belonging to the 
farm? 

Q. — Yes, sir. 

A. — We have been keeping them up 
all along. 

Q. — You do that repair work here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In 1912, how much cane did you 
say you ground? 

A. — 9,146 tons. 

Q. — About how much sugar do you 
get from a ton of cane? 

A.— 165 to 175. 

Q. — How much is that worth per 
pound? 

A. — It will average, I suppose, four 
cents. 

Mr. L. W. Tittle makes statement at 
this time that it sold at $4.75 in 1911, 
and $3.65 in 1912. 

Q. — Can you tell the committee the 
reason for the different prices of those 
two years? 

A. — That is controlled in New Or- 
leans ; no, sir. 

Q. — What do sugar mills usually 
charge for grinding cane? 

A. — They btvy cane direct. 



Q. — Are you familiar enough with 
the sugar business to state what the 
average profit is they make out of a 
ton of cane? 

A. — About $1.50. It costs about $1.75 
per ton to grind it. 

Q. — Now, the average price they pay 
for cane, what do the grinders — What 
average profit per ton do they make? 

A.— 1.50. 

Q. — If the State is grinding their 
cane, to the mill's capacity, it could 
save $1.50 per ton? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Of course, with a supply of cane 
like last year you could not possibly 
make expenses? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How much has the State spent 
during the two years in remodeling 
and improving the mill here? 

A.-— $72,000.00. 

Q. — How much last year? 

A.— $53,000.00. 

Q. — Money going out a good deal 
faster than it is coming in? 

A. — Yes, sir, at that rate. These 
were two bad years ; one on top of an- 
other. 

Q. — Could you tell the committee the 
original cost of this mill? 

A.— $268,000.00, as well as I remem- 
ber. 

Q. — Do you know at what figures 
it was inventoried last year? 

A. — $171,000.00. 

Q. — That was considered the gener- 
al depreciation of value? 

A. — It was general depreciation. It 
is a depreciation of 5 per cent per 
year ; that is what is figured on ma- 
chinery. 

Q. — What is the average wear and 
tear on machinery of that kind? 

A. — About 5 per cent per season. 

Q. — Has that 5 per cent been charged 
to operating expenses? 

A. — I do not know ; it was $180,000.00 
last year. 

Q. — I notice in 1911 you are charged 
with boiler, $1,249.80. Is that included 
in repairs put in the last two years 

A. — That was last year. 

Q. — In 1911 you ground about 30,000 
pounds of sugar, and if you had been 
able to run to your capacity, you could 
have run to $1.50 per ton. I notice 
your pay roll, $6,883.96. Convict labor 
is $10,574.85, and your cost of main- 
tenance, $29,322.11 ; labor on sugar 
boiler, $1249.80, and insurance, 
$4 68.56. It represents the cost of 
operation, but of course, does not 
include cane purchased, and the 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



333 



sugar house is charged with $91,- 
466.39 for the cane. That would 
be just a little over $3.00 per ton 
for 30.000 tons. Was that what was 
allowed? 

A. — Yes. sir. 

Q. — If we could make $1.50 per ton, 
or save $i.50 per ton. by having- our 
own sugar mill, we could only do it 
by having cane enough to run the mill 
at its capacity? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — But only handling 30.000 tons in 
a year you could not save that much, 
could you? 

A. — Y'es. sir ; if we could get the 1,100 
tons per day. 

Q. — But even if everything was just 
right, and you could have saved $1.50 
per ton. that would have amounted to 
$45,000.00? 

A. — Y r es, sir. 

Q. — But the cost of maintenance and 
supplies is $48,479.78. which amounts 
to a certain loss right at thte begin- 
ning? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now the sugar in 1912 — the 
Clements farm is charged with sales 
amounting to $34,679.02. 

A. — There was 1.400 pounds of sugar. 

Q. — Was there any other causes for 
a loss in the operation of the sugar 
mill other than a short crop? 

A. — We had a good deal of trouble 
with the railroad on account of having 
a heavy locomotive on light steel 
around the sugar house. It delayed 
us a great deal. 

Q. — How many locomotives did you 
have? 

x\. — Three. Two hired ones and one 
State locomotive. 

Q. — The operating expense of the 
railroad is not charged in this( referr- 
ing to audit book) ? 

Brahan makes statement as follows : 
It was not charged up in that audit. 

Q. — Now. we received from the 1912 
crop $34,679.07, which is practically 
all we got out of the sugar mill and 
the cane mill? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — The returns from operating the 
eane mill and cane land shows a profit 
of $34,679.07, and the expense of op- 
erating the sugar mill was $7S.754.72, 
so you can't run a sugar mill on a light 
cane crop? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Could not that sugar eane hare 
been made into syrup and saved a 
great expense? 

A. — No, sir; not with that mill. It 



is not equipped to handle a large crop 
of syrup. 

Q. — Is it not a good business invest- 
ment to spend $78,754.07 in order to 
make $34,679.07? 

A. — No. sir : not on a small crop. 

Senator Jno. G. Willacy interrogates 
Mr. Brahan : 

Q. — A mill of this capacity could not 
be operated on less than 900 tons a day 
without losing money? 

A. — No. sir. 

Q. — Would it not have been better to 
handle the cane some other way? 

A. — Those things are taken up at 
the very beginning of the year, and de- 
cided at that time what you are going 
to do, and you can't tell what this cane 
crop is going to do to save your life. 
We are working on this sugar mill 
right now. getting ready for the crop. 
Y T ou can't tell what the crop is going 
to do. 

Mr. Fred B. Smith makes following 
statement : 

There is a great portion of extra la- 
bor due to the building going on last 
year. We had a great many men going 
on and off in the summer. 

Senator Jno. G. Willacy resumes in- 
terrogation of Mr. Smith : 

Q. — Mr. Smith, you are familiar with 
the sugar house? 

A. — Y'es. sir. 

Q. — Do you consider this plant* a 
modern mill? 

A. — Y'es, sir, I do. 

Q. — It is up to date? 

A. — Y>s, sir. 

Q. — And the machinery now in good 
condition ? 

A. — First class condition. - 

Q. — Does it need any repairs now? 

A. — None to speak of. The machin- 
ery itself does not need any repairs. 

Q. — What shape is the building in? 

A. — Jn good shape. 

Q. — Flow are you employed? 

A. — By the year. 

Q. — At what price? 

A. — $150 per month. 

Q. — You take care of the sugar mill 
when it is in operation? 

A. — Yes. sir. 

Q. — And when it is not in operation, 
what do you do? 

A. — I look after the repairing of the 
sugar mill, and the laundry, and the 
building of any machinery that may 
be going on at any of tin- Farms, most- 
ly the Ramsey; that is the closest one. 

Q. — You are kept pretty busy? 

A. — Y'es, sir. 



334 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — In having repairs made for any 
of your machinery here, or at other 
points, do you ever send any of it to 
other shops other than the Hunts- 
ville shop? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You are not prepared to state 
the charge at the Huntsville . shop is 
more than any other shop? 

A. — I cannot say in general, but some 
are excessive. 

Q. — And there are some consider- 
able delays? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you help put up the laundry 
here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is that a good laundry? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is it operating all right? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — The electric plant — what ^s 
the horse power? 

A. — Fifteen horse. 

Q. — Do you have any difficulty 
with that? 

A. — None whatever. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
the operation of the House sugar 
mill? 

A. — There three years. 

Q. — How do they employ the en- 
gineers? 

A. — By the year. 

Q. — How do they employe the en- 
gineers at the other sugar houses? 

A. — The same. When I first went 
to the House Mill he kept three of 
us, and the following year he kept 
two men. 

Q. — Has he a man now? 

A. — I don't know, but he did the 
last year. He has always kept two 
men the year round. During the 
year I was there first he kept three 
men. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — What is the cost of the laun- 
dry out there? 

A. — I could not say; I never saw 
any of the invoices for that machin- 
ery. 

Q.— Do they have another laundry 
similar to that at Ramsey? 

Q. — Are they expecting to install 
one at the other farms? 

A. — Yes, sir; just finished one at 
the Imperial. 

Q. — What is your estimate these 
modern equipped laundries save to 
the State per year? 

A. — I would say it saves 50 per 
cent, to clothing, and it is more 
cleanly and everything. 



Q. — Including the cost of labor? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I understand you to say the 
sugar mill at Clements Farm was 
inventoried at $171,000.00 now. Has 
sugar making machinery increased 
in price since this mill was instal- 
led? 

A. — No, I don't believe it has. 

Q. — In other words, if you were 
going to contract for a mill of sim- 
ilar capacity and equipment, could 
you purchase the machinery for the 
price you have inventoried there? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What would it cost you? 

A. — This mill would cost in the 
neighborhood now of about $275,- 
000.00 to install it like it is — new 
machinery throughout. 

Q. — Including the new improve- 
ments you made last year? 

A. — With the new improvements 
it would cost $300,000.00 at least. 

Q. — Why did you inventory it at 
$171,000.00? 

A. — We took the usual five per 
cent deterioration. 

Q. — As an engineer familiar with 
the cost of machinery of this class, 
what would you estimate to be a 
reasonable value of this sugar mill? 

A. — I would value it at $250,000.- 
00 right now. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Are you informed as to the 
value of railroads? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you any idea as to the 
value of this State railroad from 
here to Brazoria? 

A. — No, sir; I could not give you 
a fair answer to that. 

Q. — You are not familiar with 
railroad constructions? 

A. — No, sir. 

Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
Brahan: 

Q. Can you tell the committee 
whether or not the State owns the 
right of way on the spur of railroad 
running into Brazoria? 

A. — I think they do. I am not 
certain. I think we have got deeds 
on it. I think Mr. Tittle can tell 
you more about this than I can. Mr. 
Tittle makes statements that he is 
unable to say whether or not the 
State owns the right-of-way. 

(The committee requested the 
stenographer to make note of the 
above question, and get the informa- 
tion from the Prison Commission, 
also the traffic arrangements with 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



335 



the St. Louis & Brownsville Ry., at 
Brazoria which he did as per letter of 
May 29th, which reads as follows: 

Austin, Tex., May 29, 1913. 
Mr. Ben E. Cabell, 

Chairman Prison Commissioners, 

Huntsville, Tex. 
Dear Sir: During the night ses- 
sion at Clements Farm, May 2, the 
question was raised by Mr. Tillotson, 
who owned the right-of-way on the 
spur of railroad from Clements farm 
into Brazoria. 

The Committee desires all the in- 
formation you can give them regard- 
ing this Railway, and also the Traffic 
arrangements with the St. Louis & 
Brownsville Ry. at Brazoria. 

Please- forward this statement to 
me, care Capitol Station, Austin, 
Texas. 

Thanking you for giving this your 
prompt attention, I am, 
Yours truly, 

C. D. HESTER, 

Secretary. 



MONDAY, MAY 26, 1913, AT CLEM- 
ENS FARM. 

Testimony of Captain E. B. Mills. 

Night Session. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Will you please give your 
name in full to the Secretary? 

A. — E. B. Mills. 

Q. — What position do you hold 
with the prison system? 

A. — I am sergeant and manager of 
the Clemens State farm. 

Q. — When did you take the posi- , 
tion as manager? 

A. — The first of August, 1912. 

Q. — How many acres of cane have 
you planted on this farm at this ! 
time? 

A. — Two thousand three hundred 
and fifty-four acres. 

Q. — Now in cane? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar with his 
plantation? 

A. — I handled it four years under 
Lanham's administration. 

Q. — You are familiar with the 
soil? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How much do you consider 
good cane land? 

A. — About 1,500 or 1,800 acres I 



consider good cane land, and the rest 
is cotton and corn land. 

Q. — How many acres have yon in 
cultivation altogether? 

A. — Now including the two places 
leased, we have 550 9 acres. 

Q. — I believe you told us this af- 
ternoon how much was in the leased 
lands. 

A. — Yes, sir; 512 acres. 

Q. — Leaving practically 5,000 acres 
on the State's lands? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you consider all of that 
good cotton land? 

A. — All we have in cotton on the 
entire place? Yes, sir; I think it 
will grow good cotton. The peach 
land will make a ranker weed, es- 
pecially on a wet year. 

Q. — Have you any potatoes plant- 
ed? 

A. — Only four or five acres — just 
enough for our own use. 

Q. — How many acres have you 
cleared since you came here last 
year? 

A. — I think very nearly 800 acres. 

Q. — Has that been put in cultiva- 
tion? 

A. — Not all of that. I suppose 
300 acres of it has not been put in. 

Q. — Could you give the Committee 
an estimate of what it cost to clear 
that land per acre as you are work- 
ing now under the new law? 

A. — I expect it costs us $25.00 or 
$30.00 per acre. 

Q. — Do you think you could get out 
with that? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Under the new law? 

A. — I think $25.00 will cover it. 

Q. — And you think it is good cot- 
ton land? 

A. — Yes, sir: There is no land 
on the farm but what will make 
cotton, however, the land next to the 
river will have to be levied. When 
it overflows it gets out all over the 
country north of the field. 

Q. — Have you done any ditching 
since you came here? 

A. — Yes, sir; quite a lot. 

Q. — Have you any idea what it 
costs'.' 

A. — No, sir; 1 have not. 

Q. — Whatever the cost of clearing 
land and ditching is, it ought to be 
credited to the farm and go into 
the property account because it rep- 
resents an increase of the value of 
the property, and I notice in the 
audit of 1911 there is none, and 






336 



Report and Findings of 



neither in 1912. The farm is en- 
titled to that credit. 

Q. — How many mules do you op- 
erate here? 

A. — I have 242 mules. 

Q. — What character of mules are 
they? 

A. — They are all pretty fair mules; 
some pretty old; I don't know what 
per cent. 

Q. — Is there any distinction be- 
tween cane mules and any other 
mules? 

A. — It requires a larger mule on 
a cane farm than on a cotton farm. 

Q. — What do these mules cost? 

A. — I really don't know; I sup- 
pose $200.00 apiece. 

Q.— Are you familiar with the 
value of mules? 

A. — No, sir; I am not. I have 
never bought any and have had no 
occasion to find out. 

Q. — Have you built any roads 
through the plantation since you 
came here? 

A. — No, sir; I have not graded 
any. 

Q. — Have you built any railroads? 

A. — I built one and one-half miles 
of railroad. 

Q. — Did you throw up a grade for 
that? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Where did you get the ties? 

A. — I sawed them at the mill. 

Q. — The steel rails were sent to 
you on requisition? 

A. — Yes, sir; Mr. Brahan had 
them sent down. 

Q. — Have you had any experience 
in building railroads? 

A. — No, sir; I have helped build 
some, but had no way to get at the 
cost of them. 

Q. — What kind of ties did you use? 

A. — Live oak. I shipped 3000 
ties to the Harlem farm, and sawed 
about 10,000 since I came here the 
first of August. 

Q. — Do you remember how much 
you were credited for those ties? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — And you shipped some wood 
too somewhere, did you not, in 1912? 

A. — I don't remember any wood 
we shipped. 

Senator Jno. G. Willacy interro- 
gates Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — Do you know how much this 
farm was credited for these ties? 

A. — I think $1.00 apiece. 

Q. — Guess again. 

A. — I did not say exactly. 



Q. — They are charged at 50 cents. 
(Refers to audit book.) 

A. — If they got them at 50 cents, 
they got them 50 cents too cheap. 

Senator Willacy resumes the inter- 
rogation of Captain E. B. Mills. 

Q. — Have you got a good deal of 
timber to make these ties? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How do they last? 

A. — They last for years; they are 
the best ties you can use. 

Q. — Have you ever estimated what 
it costs to cut those ties and de- 
liver them on the track? 

A. — No, sir. You see, Senator, I 
go out with a squad of men and cut 
the trees down and then we haul 
them here, and there are so many 
men at the saw mill to handle the 
logs around there. We have never 
made any estimate. 

Q. — How much is there yet to clear 
on this place? 

A. — I think about 3,000 acres. 

Q. — Is there a good deal of cross 
tie timber on this place? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Mr Brahan interrogates Mr. Mills: 

Q. — Have you figured the cost to 
get these ties out? 

A. — It is like this; they are cut 
down when the labor is not doing 
anything and hauled out with the 
teams. Now on the 10th of July you 
will find the crops are layed by and 
the teams are idle, and it costs the 
plantation nothing to get these ties 
out. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Have you any idea about how 
many ties you get out on an acre of 
ground? 

A. — It would be hard to estimate 
that. 

Q. — About what was the cotton 
yield last year per acre? 

A. — Some cotton here on the place 
made a bale to the acre. The cot- 
ton I found here, they had a good 
stand. The cotton was planted early. 
I am satisfied, we got a bale of cot- 
ton to the acre off it. But on the 
north part of the place, I think the 
cotton came up in July or the latter 
part of June, and we did not get 
much out of it. The grass and weeds 
came up very foul in it. It was very 
young cotton, and I don't believe 
it made an eighth of a bale to the 
acre. 

Q. — Could you tell us about how 
many acres you had? 

A. — I think 1,000 acres last year. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



337 



Q. — Was that an increase or de- 
crease over what they had in 1911? 

A. — I don't know what they had 
in 1911. We shipped three hundred 
and some odd bales. 

Mr. Tittle makes the statement 
he thought they shipped 33 7 bales. 

Q. — In 1912 I see in the audit 
where you are charged with crop 
expense, in addition to maintenance, 
supplies and clothing. Now the crop 
expense, $9,497.65, could you tell us 
what that includes? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you think the laundry is 
economocial to the place? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — It is not near so hard on cloth- 
ing? 

A. — No, sir, and you can get the 
clothes a great deal cleaner. 

Q. — And taking into consideration 
the expense of operating the new 
laundry compared to the cost of op- 
erating the old one, which would 
be the cheaper? 

A. — The old one would be the 
cheaper. As a general thing you 
have got one-legged men and crip- 
ples around that could wash clothes 
as they always did, but the laundry 
is a great improvement. 

Q. — It represents a large saving 
in clothing? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Could you tell the committee 
how many guards you have here? 

A. — Twenty-one guards at No. 1. 

Q. — I mean on the entire farm? 

A. — I think about fifty-five. 

Q. — How many convicts have you 
on the place? 

A. — Six hundred and eighty-three. 

Q. — Is that about the average 
number on the entire place? 

A. — Yes, sir. 
• Q. — Is that about what they had 
last year? 

A. — More, I think. 

Q. — How many of those are ac- 
tually working? 

A. — About 4 68 men that work in 
the fields. Now I have 120 Mexicans, 
but out of that 120 I have 10 — that 
would leave 110 Mexicans — that are 
clearing land; that you would add to 
the 4 68 men. 

Q. — That would make you 588 
men at work? 

A. — Now, you understand I have 
here at Camp No. 1, nine cooks, thir- 
teen flunkies, two lot men and seven 
laundrymen. 



Q. — Are there any more men here 
than you need? 

A. — Y^es, sir. 

Q. — Are there any cripples or sick 
men who can't work? 

A. — Yes, sir; we have some here 
who are worthless. 

Q. — You have no use for them at 
all? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — They represent a burden of 
expense to the plantation? 

A. — Yes, sir. - . 

Q. — Have you any mutiny right 
i now? 

A. — None now. 

Q. — Are they becoming rather pop- 
ular? 

A.r — Yes, sir; they come pretty 
frequently. 

Q. — And while the men are en- 
I gaged in these frequent mutinies 
j they are doing no work? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Does it take additional ex- 
pense to guard them in that condi- 
tion? 

A. — No, sir; I will say I had 

j thirty odd at the Mexicans camp to 

I mutiny some time ago, and the guard 

that carried them out and the night 

man were sufficient to handle them. 

Q. — The men not needed in the 
'fields or cooking or other necessary 
iwork around here, do you put them 
I to grubbing land? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Now, in regard to these 
j guards; have you ever had any 
'trouble since you have been here 
with guards getting drunk? 

A. — Some time back a guard was 
reported to me as being drunk, and 
I discharged that guard, and he is 
now in Louisiana. I want to say 
[there was another guard I saw down 
I the road one Sunday with whisky 
I in him, but he was not drunk. I 
I called up Camp No. 3 — his name was 
I Billy Cleveland. I told the sergeant 
there to send him over the next 
morning. I was going to put him 
|on the black list. He was a man 
65 years old, I think, and he told 
me if I would not black list him 
it would never occur again as long 
as he was on the farm. He put up 
a mighty good talk, and I said: 
I have got to take some ac- 
tion; you know it is against the 
rules, and I will do this with you. 
I will give you a fifteen-days' lay- 
off, and at the expiration of the fif- 
1 ten days and you come back, if I 



338 



Report and Findings of 



can use you, I will. At the expiration 
of the fifteen days he came back 
and I could not use him and I sent 
him over to Captain Weems on the 
Trammell place." 

Q. — You have charge of the Tram- 
mell plantation, too? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You have charge of the plant- 
ing and cultivation? 

A. — Yes, sir; I go over as much 
as I can. 

Q. — How long ago was that since 
you took him back? 

A. — I think nearly a month ago. 

Q. — Has he been drunk since. 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is he giving good service? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Still working there? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know of any other 
cases? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You regard them as sober 
men? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What do you think of the 
ten cents per diem the State is pay- 
ing to the convicts? Do you think it 
is a success? 

A. — I don't think it ought to be 
allowed. 

Q. — Do you think it causes any 
dissatisfaction? 

A. — No, sir; I don't know that it 
does. Mr. Brooks says the negroes 
won't work on account of not getting 
it. I believe I can say if you pay 
them ten cents and add $1.00, to it, 
it would not help it a particle. 

Q. — How many hours of actual 
work do you get out of the convicts 
under the new law? 

A. — About 7 1-2 or 8 hours; ow- 
ing to the distance they have to go. 

Q. — Is that an average day's work 
as compared with free labor? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do they work as well as free 
labor? 

A. — No, sir. Now I worked free 
negroes before I came here; paid 
them $1.00 per day, and they knew 
I expected good work out of them 
and I got good work out of them. 

Q. — About how many acres will 
free labor cultivate? 

A. — It is owing to the tools and 
the shipments. I think with the im- 
proved implements he can cultivate 
25 to 30 acres of land. 

Q. — How much with the tools of 
the State? 



A. — About 20 acres to the man; 
he ought to do it easy. 

Q. — But the convicts don't do it? 

A. — We cultivate about ten and 
one-fifth acres. I made a calculation 
on that. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — How long have you been work- 
ing convicts? 

A. — Since 1877. 

Q. — Have you any suggestions by 
which the guards' service could be 
improved — made more efficient to 
the State? 

A. — I don't believe there could be 
much improvement made on the 
guards. The guards are a class 
of men that can't do anything 
else much.. They are not an 
educated class of people, and 
they either have to do this or 
manuel labor, or at least the ma- 
jority of them, and I think so far 
as guards are concerned, we have 
got as good guards as we can get 
hold of, but in hiring the guards, we 
have to try them before we find them 
out. Of course, you take a man who 
can command more than $35.00 per 
month, he is going into some other 
kind of business. You can't get an 
educated man to do that kind 
of work. You can't get lawyers and 
doctors and those kind of men to 
come out here and do this kind of 
work. 

Q. — If you graded them to start 
them in at a low salary and increase 
their salary up to $50.00 per month, 
do you consider you could improve 
the value of the guard service to the 
State? 

A. — I believe it would run along 
then about like it is now. 

Q. — Can you suggest any incen- 
tive to that, such as promotion? 

A. — Take a man and let him learn- 
the business and let him look for- 
ward to something better he will 
take more interest in it, but take a 
man working like the mischief and 
somebody else butts in ahead of him 
it is very discouraging. 

Q.— Has the abolishment of the 
bat increased the number of punish- 
ments under the conditions that pre- 
vailed prior to the prison law? 

A. — Yes, sir; to a great extent. 

Q. — Have there been more muti- 
nies under the present law than for 
the same period preceding it? 

A. — Yes, sir; four or five times to 
one. More than that, I expect. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



341 



come out, and they cursed me for 
everything they could. I did not lose 
my head, but went back and called 
up again, and Mr. Tittle talked to 
me this time, and he told me the 
same as Mr. Brahan: that is, to get 
the bread and water out and starve 
them out. I told the Mexicans they 
were foolish and could not gain any- 
thing. I told them we did not want 
to hurt them, but they must put that 
bread and water out of there. I said: 
If you won't come out, put the bread 
and. water out and we won't come 
in the building at all. They said 
they would not put the bread and 
water out. I said then it was the 
Commissioners' order for me to take 
it out. Now these Mexicans who 
could speak the English language, 
they did the talking. Now I got up 
close and called them up, and told 
them to listen to me: I want to give 
you a piece of advice. You have 
acted in a very foolish manner; you 
can't win; it is foolish to act this 
way, and - want to tell you right 
now we are going to have this bread 
and water, and just as sure as you 
make fight you will get hurt; that 
you have nothing to win. They said 
you come and get it, and they said 
they would kill us all. I then got 
some negroes to come to the build- 
ing. I was going to take them in to 
take the bread and water out. They 
stood on each side of the door with 
their long dirks — 

Q. — Where did they get these 
dirks? 

A. — I don't know; I had them 
searched the other day and got sev- 
eral off of them. Now I am certain 
the trusties on the outside make 
them and get them to them some 
way, but I think I have stopped that 
now. If they do get them in there 
they have to do it by cutting the 
screens. Now when I started to the 
door they got on each side of the 
door with their knives drawn ready 
to fight, and the balance all came up 
also. One of the guards says: Cap- 
tain Mills, if you let the negroes go 
ahead they will cut them all to pieces, 
so I took two guards and placed them 
in front of these negroes, thinking 
it would bluff them back out of the 
way, and when we opened the door, 
I was standing by one of the guards, 
and just as soon as the doors opened, 
they made a rush and commenced 
throwing bricks, and one came 
mighty near striking me, and when 



they made a rush coming with their 
knives drawn, much closer than from 
here to Governor (indicating Gover- 
nor Mayes who sat about four or five 
feet from Captain Mills), of course, 
the guards commenced opening up 
and shooting. 

Q. — Any men killed? 
A. — Yes, sir; one. 
Q. — How many wounded? 
A. — Nine. 

Q. — Did that quell the mutiny? 
A. — Yes, sir; and just as soon as 
it was over I went back and asked 
them if they were ready to come out 
and they said: "Yes, sir, Captain." 
So I went back and opened the doors 
and they all came out. 

Q. — All the wounded recover? 
A. — Yes, sir. One got his arm 
broken. 

Q. — Will he ever fully recover? 
A. — No, sir; but Dr. Hample told 
me some time ago he was getting 
along nicely. 

Q. — Have you had any trouble with 
the remainder since? 

A. — No, sir; just some few for 
laziness. 

Q. — Do you think the chaining up 
of the two men is the direct cause of 
the mutiny? 

A. — (No response). 
Q. — I believe you said you handled 
convicts before the new law went 
into effect? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever have any mutiny 
of this kind under the old law? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you approve of the present 
method of punishment? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You don't approve of the ten 
cents per diem? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You don't approve of the ten- 
hour labor limit? 

A. — I don't believe in it if you in- 
clude going from the building to the 
field, etc. I think it ought to be ten 
hours in the field. 

Q. — Is there a single feature of the 
new law you approve of? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You don't believe in the new 
law? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You are not in sympathy with 
the workings of the new law? 
A. — No, sir. 

After the Committee had interro- 
gated Mr. .Mills he asked the differ- 
ent members of the Committee if he 



342 



Report and Findings of 



could make a statement in writing re- 
garding the series of questions pro- 
pounded by Mr. Humphrey which 
request was granted, and statement 
reads as follows: 

You asked me if I was in sym- 
pathy with any part of the new law 
relative to handling convicts. I want 
to say I am in sympathy with por- 
tions of the new law. I am not in 
sympathy with the law pertaining to 
the ten cents per diem, and not in 
sympathy with the regulation of the 
bat. I believe in humane treatment 
of the convicts, and am not in favor 
of the ten hours per day; that is, in- 
cluding the time going to and return- 
ing from their work. 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
CLEMENS FARM. 

Testimony of M. Huntington. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Will you please give your 
name to the secretary? 

A. — M. Huntington. 

Q. — Where do you live, Mr. Hunt- 
ington? 

A. — One mile below the Clemens 
farm. 

Q. — Adjoining the Clemens farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How long have you lived in 
this section? 

A. — About forty years. I came 
here in '67. 

Q. — You have something you wish 
to tell the Committee about some 
bored wells in this section? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I would like for you to state 
to the committee what it is. 

A. — The first well they put down 
here — the fall they completed the 
sugar house — they were boring for 
water to run the machinery; they 
had an oil man, and for some reason 
Mr. Baker had gotten this man to 
put down the well, and he told me 
he was an oil man and had bored 
four wells in Beaumont. 

Q. — Who is Mr. Baker? 

A. — He was superintendent at 
that time. 

Q. — How long ago was that? 

A. — In 1902. 

Q. — Tell us the history of that 
well. 

A. — I had never seen a well put 
down before until that time, and I 
got the clay for them over on my 
place to use in the well, and when 



they got down about 1000 feet they 
had a blow-out that blew all over 
the derrick, and some of the men 
even jumped in the lake off of the 
platform to get out of the way of it. 

Q. — Was that at the sugar house? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How long did that gas blow? 

A. — Only a few minutes. 

Q. — What did the well man have 
to say about that well? 

A. — He went on boring, and I 
watched it for that day, but I was 
not there that night, but he told me 
the same thing occurred, and the next 
day pure Beaumont oil run out as 
big as plates in spots and down to as 
small as a dollar, and so on in the 
water, for two days and nights and 
then it quit. This occurred between 
1000 and 1100 feet down. It never 
occurred before nor after that time. 

Q. — How deep did they bore that 
well? 

A. — They went 1300 to 1400 feet 
deep and stopped in the rock. They 
were wanting water. They had even 
bought five miles of ten inch pipe 
to pipe water from the Brazos. 

Q. — What did they do with the 
pipe? 

A. — It has been used for bridges 
and different things, but they got it 
to get water from the Brazos and 
Mr. Baker wanted the water so bad 
— this driller, he got oil in Beau- 
mont. He said he had brought in 
four wells in Beaumont, and this was 
the best prospect he had. He said 
if Mr. Baker would let him bail it 
for two days he would have all the 
oil he wanted. 

Q. — Did this well driller ever try 
to lease this land to drill for oil? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did anyone else ever try to 
lease this land to bore for oil? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Anybody try to buy any of 
it? 

A. — None that I know of. 

Q. — Has any oil ever been struck 
near here? 

A. — No, sir; only at Columbia on 
this slough here, and they got oil. 
It just run out all around. 

Q. — Any oil to any considerable 
quantity ever got over at Columbia? 

A. — Yes, sir; a great deal, I 
think. It just ran out everywhere, 
and when I used to run this State 
property here as a ranch on the 
slough over near No. 2 camp, I have 
seen oil on the water there, and at 
the lower dam the stock would not 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



343 



drink the water. It came out in a 
stream. 

Q. — Have you ever had any ex- 
perience in drilling oil wells? 

A. — I have in Fort Bend County. 

Q. — Ever strike any oil? 

A. — Xo, sir. 

Q. — You bored three wells? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — But never found any oil? 

A.- — Xo, sir. 

Q. — Any one else in this section 
ever bored for oil? 

A. — Xone that I know of. At the 
neck of the Barnard they are bor- 
ing for some. 

Q. — How far is that? 

A. — Ten or twelve miles. 

Q.- — They are prospecting for it, 
but have never found it? 

A. — Xo, sir; but it is so easy to 
try here; to put the pipe down 1100 
or 12 00 feet to prove what I tell 
you. If you don't find oil I will 
pay the expense. 

Q. — This man in charge was an oil 
well driller? 

A. — Yes, sir; he told me he had 
brought in four oil wells in Beau- 
mont, and he said if Mr. Baker 
would let him bail it out, he would 
get him all the oil he wanted. 

Q. — That was in 1902? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And no effort has been made 
to put down a well since? 

A. — Xo, sir. 

Q. — And nobody has tried to pur- 
chase State lands since that time in 
this vacinity? 

A. — Xo, sir. 

Q. — How near is the closest oil 
well to here? 

A. — The Columbia well is the near- 
est one I know of. 

Q. — How far is that? 

A. — About sixteen miles. 

Q. — And you think the probabili- 
ties are they would strike oil if 
they would bore for it? 

A. — Well, there is oil in that well. 
I saw it myself. It -has a pressure 
of 60 or 7 5 pounds. Of course when 
it first blew out that was the first 
indication of oil. 

Q. — Did it blow out while they 
were drilling? 

A. — Yes, sir; just blew out through 
the machinery. 

Q. — Were they using a Rotary 
drill? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Were they using muddy 
water? 

A. — It was good clear water. 



Q. — You say they used wood at 
that time? 

A. — They did not fire with oil 
like they do now. 

Q. — Xow, if you will permit, I will 
ask you a few questions about the 
plantation. You have lived here 
forty odd years. 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And you have been familiar 
with the conduct of the plantation? 

A. — As a neighbor passing through 
only. 

Q. — Would you know anything 
about the conduct of the guards here? 

A. — Xo, sir; no more than you do. 

Q. — Did you ever know any of 
them to be drunk? 

A. — Xo, sir; never in my life. I 
have met them going to town. 

Q. — As a neighbor, could you tell 
us whether or not there is an im- 
pression among the neighbors in the 
community that there is a lot of 
drunkenness going on here? 

A. — Xever heard of it. 

Q. — What are lands worth in this 
vicinity? 

A. — Mr. Swenson offered me $50 
per acre for my tract. 

Q. — How many acres? 

A. — 2000 acres. 

Q. — How much of that is in culti- 
vation? 

A. — About 700 acres. 

Q. — The rest in timber? 

A. — Prairie and some timber; 
about 150 acres in timber. 

Q. — Have you a house or home 
on it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you raise any cane? 

A. — Not now; I can't get the labor 
to handle it. 

Q. — Did you ever handle it with 
convict labor? 

A. — Yes, sir; and I have handled 
it with free labor, too. Mr. Mills 
handled it once before with con- 
vict labor. I found a bill against 
me, I believe last year, for several 
thousand dollars, for sugar turned 
over to me. They were right after 
me. There was no transaction be- 
tween us, except as they turned the 
sugar over to me, and it was not 
straightened up until last year. I 
knew Mr. Mills knew in a way how 
the transaction was. They first got 
the goods and paid me for it then. 

Q. — They did not keep any books 
on that transaction? 

A. — They charged me with the 
sugar and paid me my one-fifth, 



3U 



Report and Findings of 



and then they turned the sugar over 
to me. 

Q. — That was your one-fifth of the 
crop? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many tons per acre did 
that make on your place? 

A. — Sometimes as low as twenty 
tons. Twenty tons, I suppose so. 

Q. — Are there any private indi- 
viduals growing cane in this coun- 
try? 

A. — Yes, sir; some few down the 
road there. 

Q. — What sort of cotton land is 
this country? 

A. — All right for cotton. The ne- 
groes in Fort Bend county say it is 
better than the Brazos bottom. 

Q. — What kind of crop did they 
grow on this plantation year before 
last, 1911? 

A. — You mean sugar cane? 

Q. — No, sir; cotton. 

A. — They did not have very much 
cotton planted in 1911. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
the cotton crop of last year, 1912? 

A. — I don't know how it turned 
out. 

Q. — How did it turn out on your 
place? 

A. — We raised a bale to the acre 
on some land. We planted some in 
corn and some in cotton. The land 
in cotton ran about the average of 
one-half bale to the acre. 

Q. — -How was your crop in 1911? 

A. — I did not have much cotton 
in 1911. I have not paid much at- 
tention to farming here. 

Q. — Coming back to the oil propo- 
sition, no effort has been made to 
see if oil could be had since 1902? 

A. — No, sir; they wanted water at 
that time. I have just suggested this 
as it would be so easy for you to 
know. The well is there, and there 
is a way to get- down and cut it, and 
it need not cost over $25 to know 
if you have oil there. You have oil 
there, but I can't say how much. He 
said it was a good well. 

By Captain E. B. Mills: 

Q. — Do you know of anybody try- 
ing to lease this land for oil? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
Q. — Have you anything else to 
suggest? 

A. — Well, I will say if you want 
to vary your crops, I think broom 
corn would be a good thing for the 
State. 



Q. — Is any of that grown here? 

A. — Not now, but it used to be. 
Now broom corn when it is ready 
to cut, you have to cut it right now, 
but you could turn two or three hun- 
dred convicts in on it some day and 
save it before it gets too red. If you 
let it run a week too long it will get 
red, and it is not so valuable. 

Q. — Will broom corn stand a hard 
drought? 

A. — Yes, sir; and I raised two 
crops in a year. I cut it off and it 
made the second crop. 

Q. — You don't raise any of it now? 

A. — You can't do it with free labor. 
We have the same trouble in raising 
hay. I can cut it down, but can't 
save it. 

Q. — Is there any broom corn raised 
in this, neighborhood at all? 

A. — I don't know that there is. 

Q. — How will that stand the frost? 

A. — It is like cotton; you have to 
plant it after the frost is over. 

Q. — Have you any other sugges- 
tions? 

A. — No, sir; none. 

Q. — I understood you to say you 
had a farm in Fort Bend county? 

A. — I have one near the Blakely 
camp. 

Q. — What do you think lands in 
that vicinity worth? 

A. — I have no idea. I don't want 
to sell mine. It brings me in rent of 
about $35 per acre, and I don't see 
how I can sell it. 

Q. — You will not care to state 
what you think land up there is 
worth? 

A. — No, sir; the State has an op- 
tion on some land next to me at $90. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy: 

Q. — Can you tell the committee 
what other people in that vicinity 
are holding their land at? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Does the mere fact that lands 
adjoining the State lands give it an 
added value over any other lands? 

A. — I don't think so. Of course, 
if it had not been for the State we 
would not have got out of the way 
of possums and coons- 

Q. — Has the value of land depre- 
ciated any on account of being next 
to the State lands? 

A. — No, sir; it has increased. The 
State only paid $8 for theirs, and I 
paid $10 for mine. 

Q. — The lands all over the coun- 
try have enhanced in value? 

A.- — -Yes, sir. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



345 



Q. — -Lands adjoining those worked 
by convicts, does that affect it in 
price? 

A. — Xo, sir. 

Q. — Are there any owners of land 
in this vicinity trying to sell their 
land to the State? 

A. — I don't know. Mr. Smith has 
no use for his. He would he glad to 
sell it, I think. 

Q. — Is there much demand for 
land now? Is anybody trying to buy 
it much? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think so. Now 
for the Lord's sake please try to de- 
velop that well. I am confident the 
oil is there, and I will go and foot 
the expense if you don't get oil. I 
don't know how much it will be. 

Q. — What depth was that? 

A. — About 10 to 1100 feet. They ! 
went about 100 feet the next two 
days and nights after they blew out. 

By Judge W. O. Dime: 

Q. — I believe you stated they were 
in hard rock when they left that 
well? 

A. — Yes, sir. I saw the oil my- 
self, and there was no way for the 
oil to have gotten there except to 
come out of the ground, because 
they fired with wood, and the only 
oil used was to oil their machinery, 
and the driller explained to me that 
it was the regular blue Beaumont 
oil. I could not tell you how much 
there would be, but believe you could 
get a shipload out of it every day. 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 191: 
CLEMENS FARM. 

Testimony of Mr. D. Mason. 



AT 



By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — What is your name? 

A. — D. Mason. 

Q. — What is your position in ref- 
erence to the Clemens farm? 

A.— Head steward and book- 
keeper. 

Q. — How long have you occupied 
this position? 

A. — Since the 2 2nd of January, 
this year. 

Q. — How long have you been on 
the Clemens farm? 

A. — Since then. 

Q. — Who appointed you, Mr. Ma- 
son? 

A. — I hardly know. I had some 
correspondence with the Commis- 
sioners commencing last October, 



and carried on a correspondence, and 
went down to Huntsville, and I came 
over here and had a talk with Cap- 
tain Mills, and came over here. 

Q. — What did they say at Hunts- 
ville about the position here? 

A. — They said it was a heavy po- 
sition and that they wanted a good 
man; that Captain Mills had a po- 
sition over here, and would be glad 
if I would come over. They said I 
would find him to be a very good 
man to work with. 

Q. — Did any member of the Com- 
mission, or Captain Mills, ask you 
about your politics? 
A. — No,, sir. 

Q. — Has anyone ever said any- 
thing to you about politics since you 
have in the penitentiary system? 

A. — Yes, sir; there has been a 
right smart of politics talked around 
here. 

Q. — By whom? 

A. — Mr. Thomas was the leading 
politician since I came here. 

Q. — What did he have to say on 
the subject? 

A. — I am not a politician and did 
not pay any attention to the talk. 

Q. — Did he seem to think he re- 
ceived his appointment on account 
of his political service? 
A. — Oh, yes. 

Q. — Did he assume that it was 
his opinion everybody should be ap- 
pointed that way? 

A. — Yes, sir; or they ought to be. 
Q. — How often do your duties 
carry you to Brazoria? 

A. — Nearly every day; sometimes 
twice a day. 

Q. — You have complete charge of 
all freights received at the farm? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Express packages, also? 
A. — Yes, sir; everything. 
Q. — Where liquors are received by 
express or freight, would you be 
likely to know of it? 

A. — I don't ask about half the 
packages. I just sign for them, 
throw them in the hack or on the 
train and bring them out. 

Q. — Have you reason to believe 

any of the packages referred to by 

you contained shipments of liquor? 

A. — I don't think so. 

Q. — Have you made any effort to 

ascertain if they contained whisky? 

A. — When Judge Campbell was 

here I brought one out one day for 

a fellow who had his name mixed 

up in this business, and he opened 



346 



Report and Findings of 



it up and it contained a lot of cot- 
ton seed hulls and eggs in it. It 
looked suspicious. 

Q. — Who was that directed to? 

A. — A negro named Johnson. 

Q. — You sometimes receive ex- 
press packages for guards? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have yau ever seen a pack- 
age that appeared to you might have 
liquor in it? 

A. — No, I don't think I ever have. 

Q. — While in Brazoria have you 
ever seen any of the guards there 
drinking? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — From your information, do 
you think liquor is sold around Bra- 
zoria? 

A. — I think some time back. I 
don't know this. There was some 
fellows up there who bootlegged 
some whisky. 

Q. — Have you ever seen any of the 
guards around the negro disorderly 
houses in Brazoria? 

A. — No, sir; I have never been 
around there myself. 

Q. — Is it common rumor they do 
visit those places? 

A. — I have heard some talk of it. 

Q. — Do you know Mr. J. B. 
Thomas? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever discuss with him 
the affairs of the Clemens farm? 

A. — Yes, sir; he talked a great 
deal about it. 

Q. — Was that before or after his 
removal from Camp No. 1? 

A. — Mostly before. 

Q. — Did he ever say to you that 
he would like to be manager of the 
Clemens farm? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have heard him 
say if he could be manager of it he 
could save a great deal per month 
or per annum. 

Q. — How would he do that, or did 
he say? 

A. — I did not ask him, because I 
did not think he could do it. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
statements he has made regarding 
yourself? 

A. — I have read them, yes, sir. 

Q. — You were the party on that 
fishing trip about which he spoke? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you carry any whisky 
with you on that trip? 

A. — There was some there. 



Q. — Who carried it? 

A. — I don't know. There was 
something like one and a half or 
two quarts. 

Q. — Did you see any whisky be- 
fore you arrived at the dinner place? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you hear anybody say 
who took it there? 

A. — It came in one of the hacks, 
but I never paid any attention to 
that. 

Q. — Who went with you there? 

A. — I forget. I think two went, 
and two different ones came back. 

Q. — How many were there in the 
hack with you? 

A. — There was a trusty and four 
others, maybe six of us; all boys 
from the camp. 

Q. — This was on Sunday? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is it a common practice in the 
spring and summer for the guards 
to go on fishing trips on Sunday? 

A. — I don't know what the prac- 
tice is. I have never been here in 
the summer time. 

Q. — Did you see anyone on that 
trip who seemed to be under the 
influence of liquor? 

A. — Not a bit in the world? 

Q. — Was this liquor consumed be- 
fore you left in the evening? 

A. — I don't know. I had to get 
back by 5 o'clock. 

Q. — Did you hear of any trouble 
among the men in the party that 
day? 

A. — There was fifteen or twenty 
men off the farm, and we bought 
some fish, and the negroes cooked it, 
and we fished until about 5 o'clock, 
and there was no trouble. 

Q. — Was Mr. Thomas in the party? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you ever loaned any 
money to convicts? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you ever advanced any 
money to Joe McCann to loan them? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you ever loaned him any 
money for any reason? 

A. — I will take that back. I loan 
Joe change whenever he wants it. 
Only a dollar or five dollars occa- 
sionally. 

Q. — When he asks you for a loan 
what does he say he wants with it? 

A. — Sometimes he wants it to buy 
barber stuff, and sometimes other 
things. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



347 



Q. — Did he ever talk to you about 
loaning money to convicts? 

A. — No, sir. He has loaned them 
money and I have collected it for 
him. 

Q. — What was the largest sum you 
ever heard of him loaning any con- 
vict? 

A. — I don't remember, about $14. 

Q. — Would you be willing to say 
how many convicts you have col- 
lected money from for McCann. 

A. — I could not say; not over 
three or four. . We sometimes pay 
them off here and they settle with 
him here. 

Q. — From your information, do 
you think he is loaning money to 
them regularly? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think so. He 
is figuring on getting out and he 
wants to get his change together. 
I don't think so. 

Q. — It has been your duty to pay 
off the discharged men? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And if any money was to be 
collected to repay loans, you would 
know it? 

A. — I would know they are paid 
off here. Now I discharged two this 
week, I believe, and he did not have 
anything against them. 

Q. — Would any discharged man 
complain to you of having money 
collected from him? 

A. — I have not had a one. 

Q. — Were you in the office the 
day the letter from Mr. Thomas, that 
McCann showed to Captain Mills, 
came in? 

A. — I don't remember whether I 
was or not. I sometimes help Joe 
put up the mails, and sometimes I 
do not. As a rule, I don't pay much 
attention to the mail. 

Q. — Did he show you the letter? 

A. — I don't believe he did. I am 
not sure whether he showed me 
the original or copy. 

Q. — When was the first time you 
knew the letter had been returned? 

A. — I don't remember. 

Q. — When letters come in from 
the convicts unsealed is it your duty 
to read them? 

A. — No; not my duty, particularly, 
but I sometimes do. 

Q. — All the mail from the differ- 
ent camps is gathered up and 
brought to Camp No. 1 to be sent 
out, is it not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — The mail originating on the 
different camps is first delivered to 



at 



he different 



the picket man 
camps? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And all of these letters writ- 
ten by the convicts are delivered to 
him unsealed? 

A. — That is my understanding. 

Q. — And the letters written by the 
guards are sealed? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — The picket man after reading 
those letters seals them unless he 
sees some letters he thinks Captain 
Mills ought to see? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And such letters he forwards 
to Camp No. 1? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — When you receive such let- 
ters from other camps unsealed you 
have reason to think you should read 
those letters? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you occasionally open let- 
ters received from the different 
camps? 

A. — Yes, sir; we open quite a lot 
of the Mexicans' mail. Several of 
those that was in the mutiny. We 
were very particular about that. We 
opened it for several clays to see 
what they wrote about it. 

Q. — If Mr. Thomas sealed his let- 
ter at Camp No. 4 and it was received 
at Camp No. 1, how would you sup- 
pose it could have been opened in 
the office? 

A. — I don't think it was opened 
there. I think it came opened. 

Q. — You are positive that you did 
not see his letter when it came into 
the office? 

A. — No, sir. I might have seen 
it, but did not pay any attention to 
it. I have seen the sacks opened 
and scattered around considerably. 

Q. — If this letter had been opened, 
by whom could it have been opened? 

A. — Well, I could not say. His 
own trusty might have opened it. 
He has a negro trusty. 

Q. — Did McCann ever talk to you 
about it? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever question McCann 
about the matter? 

A. — I don't talk to convicts much. 
I learned that early in the game. 
McCann told me it came into the 
office unsealed. 

Q. — Have you any reason to be- 
lieve McCann had a motive for open- 
ing the letter? 

A. — I have not. I can't think of 
any he would have. 



348 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — You know Mr. Caldwell at 
Brazoria? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.— What is his business? 

A. — I think he runs a pool hall. 

Q. — Did you ever him to get any 
Shipment of liquor for you from 
either the express office or the 
freight office? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever hear of his doing 
this for anyone else? 

A. — I have heard it said he had. 

Q. — Is it common report that con- 
siderable liquor is shipped into Bra- 
zoria by express or freight? 

A. — Never a train comes in there 
but what a shipment of liquor comes 
in, I think. 

Q. — Have you any knowledge of 
any guard or any employee, or con- 
vict bringing whiskey to the Clem- 
en's farm? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — During the time you have 
been there have you seen a man who 
appeared to be under the influence 
of liquor? 

A. — No, sir; I have not. Not a 
one. 

Q. — Did you talk with Mr. Thomas 
after he . was transferred to Camp 
No. 4? 

A. — Yes, sir; Mr. Thomas told Mr. 
Mills some lies, and T- called him 
down on the road one day. 

Q. — While Mr. Thomas was at 
Camp No. 1, were your relations 
friendly? 

A. — Up to probably three or four 
weeks of the time he left there. We 
had a right smart of a disagreement 
one night? 

Q. — To what do you attribute the 
disagreement? 

A. — I got infernally tired of his 
talking politics; could not do any- 
thing around the office for him. 
There were no hard -feelings about 
it, I did not consider. He quit and 
I was glad of it. He was always 
starting an argument. 

Q. — Why did he seem to think he 
was transferred? 

A. — Well, I could not say why 
he thought so. I could not say. I 
think the idea was Captain Mills 
was not treating him right. That 
was about all he could say about it, 
when the fact was he could not fill 
the place. 

Q. — Did he ever criticise the pun- 
ishment of convicts to you? 



A. — Nearly all the time talking 
about it. 

Q. — Did he think is was too se- 
vere? 

A. — I don't know what he thought; 
he thought he could talk them into 
doing right by being good to them. 

Q. — Did he succeed with them in 
doing so? 

A. — I don't think so. Most of the 
time he had to have Captain Mills 
over at the building to straighten 
them out for him — once or twice a 
week. Since he left I don't think 
Captain Mills has been there but 
once or twice. 

By Captain E. B. Mills: 

Q. — Is it not a fact that you were 
were in position to know that Mr. 
Thomas did a greater per cent, of 
punishment for the same length of 
time than has been done since? 

A. — A whole lot more. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — What was the character of 
punishment? 

A. — Chaining and the dark cell. 

Q. — Was Mr. Thomas kind to his 
convicts and men under him? 

A. — Yes, sir; he treated them very 
nice. 

By Mr. Tittle: 

Q. — In the buying of this time; 
in other words, the loans that has 
been made to these convicts, so far 
as you know, and the small loans 
you made to this convict McCann, 
do you know what per cent. McCann 
charged these men on these loans? 

A. — I think he charges them 25 
cents on the dollar for ten or fifteen 
days, and 5 cents on the dollar 
for twenty or thirty days. Now this 
came out in Judge Campbell's inves- 
tigation, and I asked Joe about it. 
Thomas said he charged 300 per 
cent and I looked into the matter 
and found it was not so. 

Q. — Now, have you, or anyone 
else, participated in the profits of 
the money loaned these convicts? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — And you don't know of any- 
one else? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Now, in receiving the express 
here that is delivered to you, do you 
go with the wagon every time to get 
freight? 

A. — Well, sometimes I call up the 
agent and tell him to deliver it to 
the wagon and that I will sign for it 
tomorrow when I come up. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



349 



Q. — Now, if you receive a package 
that you had any suspicion contained 
whisky, would you deliver it to any- 
one without notifying Captain Mills? 

A. — No, sir; I certainly would not. 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
CLEMENS FARM. 

Testimony of Captain E. B. Mills. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — You are familiar with the 
statement filed with the Commission- 
ers by Mr. John B. Thomas? 

A. — Yes, sir; I read them. 

Q. — Will you state concisely as you 
can the discipline maintained among 
the guards on the Clemens farm. 

A. — I Consider it good discipline. 
I have been in the business a number 
of years and the discipline here is 
as good as I ever saw, and I consider 
it as good as I ever saw in the con- 
vict business. 

Q. — You have been here how long? 

A. — I came here the first of Aug- 
ust, 1912. 

Q. — Have you ever discharged a 
man for drunkenness ? 

A. — Yes, sir; I discharged one, and 
I gave another, Mr. Billy Cleveland, 
fifteen days' layoff. He begged me 
to not let him off and black list him, 
and he said he would never leave 
the place again. I hated to put the 
old fellow on the black list if I could 
avoid it, and I said: "I will do this 
with you; I will give you fifteen days' 
layoff and you can come back again, 
and if it ever occurs again, I will 
fire you and put you on the black 
list." 

Q. — What time was this? 

A. — Some time in March. 

Q. — Is he now employed on the 
farm? 

A. — He is at the Retrieve farm. He 
came back in fifteen days, and Mr. 
Weems needed a guard on the Tram- 
mell farm and I sent him over there, 
and instructed Mr. Weems to put him 
to work again. 

Q. — Did you ever hear of him 
drinking again? 

A. — No sir; not a drop. 

Q. — Did you ever hear about a man 
named Lumpkins being drunk? 

A. — I only heard this through Mr. 
Thomas after he got ir»ad at every- 
body on the farm. He told me Lump- 
kins got drunk and laid under a shed. 
He afterwards said Lumpkins got 



drunk and had to be packed in the 
house. I investigated the matter aft- 
erwards, and the young fellow who 
sleeps in the house with him said it 
was not true. Now, one thing that 
caused me to lose confidence in his 
veracity, he tolk me Mr. Mason, the 
bookkeeper, w r as drunk on the camp 
fifteen or twenty nights prior to 
the talk he was having with me, and 
I told him there was no truth in it. 
I said, "Mr. Mason's wife was at my 
house, and he comes to my sitting 
room and smokes with me until after 
10 o'clock, and he would see it was 
bed time and say something about it, 
and I know if he was drunk or un- 
der the influence of whisky, I would 
have known it, and he has come up 
here every night since his wife has 
been here and she has been here 
about six weeks." 

Q. — From your investigation you 
concluded it was not true that Mr. 
Mason was drunk? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you any other informa- 
tion of other guards drinking? 

A. — Not one other. 

Q. — When a guard is employed, 
what instructions do you give him 
on this point ? 

A. — I don't know that I instruct 
him at all. I could not say I instruct 
him on that line at all. On general 
things, I give them general instruc- 
tions altogether. 

Q. — Have you had any instances of 
gambling among your guards coming 
to your knowledge? 

A. — Not a game. 

Q. — Are convicts permitted to 
gamble ? 

A. — No, sir; they have cards and 
dominoes, and whenever I go in there 
and see them playing, I ask them if 
they are playing for money, or any- 
thing, and they say no. I would tell 
them the rules and they would tell 
me they were not gambling. Of 
course, they might gamble among 
themselves for tobacco and settle aft- 
erwards when we got out of sight, 
and they might gamble in the back of 
the building and no one be able to 
catch them. 

Q. — You permit them to have 
cards in the building? 

A. — Yes, sir; I asked someone, I 
think it was Mr. Brahan, and he said 
it was all right, so they did not gam- 
ble. 

Q. — You permit them to have dom- 
inoes? 



350 



Report and Findings of 



A. — Yes, sir; the dominoes, I sup- 
pose, were sent me from the Com- 
missioners. 

Q. — You allow them to have dice 
in the building? 

A. — I have never s-c-en them. 

Q. — If you find them with dice, do 
you take them away? 

A. — I have never given the dice a 
thought. They could play with dice 
for fun just the same as dominoes. 

Q. — Have you permitted any fights 
in the building without punishment? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you allow the guards to 
swear at the convicts? 

A. — No, sir; under no considera- 
tion. My instructions are that if they 
curse one and it can be proven on 
him, I will dead sure fire him. 

Q. — Have you had occasion to fire 
a guard for that cause? 

A. — I fired a man at No. 2 in the 
early part of March or last of Feb- 
ruary. 

Q. — Is that the only instance? 

A. — The only one. Of course, when 
it comes to a matter of that kind, 
if you have a good guard who will 
try to get work out of them, they 
will naturally try to get rid of that 
man, and they will tell anything un- 
der the canopy of Heaven and try 
to get a man that will let them do 
as they please. 

Q. — Have you known of a guard, or 
other employee, buying overtime of 
the convicts? 

A. — Not a one. I do know how- 
ever, the convict bookkeeper, with 
my permission, came to me and said: 
"I have a little monev, and do you 
care if I lend them a little money, if 
they pay me a little back on it." I 
said I did not see any harm in that. 

Q. — What is his name? 

A. — Joe McCann. 

Q. — What was the largest amount 
he ever loaned a convict? 

A. — I don't know. I never paid 
anv attention to that. It was agree- 
able with the white and black con- 
victs. 

Q — How did he collect his money 
when the convict was discharged? 

A. — I think he would tell Mr. Ma- 
son, in Joe's presence, he owed him 
a certain amount of money, and Mr. 
Mason would deduct that. For in- 
stance, if a negro was discharged at 
No. 2 or 3, the sergeant would call 
me up over 'phone and he would say 
this negro goinsr out owes someone 
two or three dollars, and sometimes 



as high as $10. Many a time I have 
had Mr. Mason to collect this money 
and bring it to my office. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Q. — What rate of interest did that 
bookkeeper charge for the use of his 
money ? 

A. — I don't know; the convict never 
said anything to me about it, and 
Joe never said anything about it. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — Were there a number of those 
transactions ? 

A. — Yes, sir; quite a few of them. 
-Q. — He loaned money to a great 
many? 

A. — Yes, sir; with my permission. 

By Senator Jno. G. Willacy. 

Q. — Did you ever hear of any con- 
spiracy between the guards or the 
bookkeeper, or any other ofifcers, in 
any way to get the per diem and 
overtime away from the convicts? 

A. — Never, in my life; there is no 
truth in it. Not a soul has been dis- 
charged that has been beat out of a 
cent. 

By Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — Did you ever hear of anyone 
loaning this convict, McCann, any 
sum of money to be used by him in 
making loans to these convicts? 

No, sir; I never did. 

Q. — From your information, you 
are satisfied the only money he used 
in making these advances to the 
convicts was his own? 

A. — I loaned Joe $40 myself. There 
was a gentleman from up there 
where he was convicted trying to get 
a pardon for him, and* they wrote 
some very nice letters. Joe does the 
shaving for the guards and makes a 
nice lot of money, and he showed me 
the letter from a friend of his stat- 
ing he would do what he could for 
him, and he was going to send the 
money to a party in El Paso, a party 
who would see the Governor, and he 
wanted this party to come out there, 
and I read the leter, and Joe wanted 
to send $40 to this man out in' Ama- 
rillo in order to send the money to 
this other party to defray his ex- 
penses in going to see the Governor, 
etc., and he told me he would pay it 
back, and he did, and that was the 
only money loaned to a convict, and 
I gave him my»personal check for $40. 

Q. — Did he represent to you this 
money was to be used in an effort 
to get a pardon? 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



351 



A. — Yes, sir; I made this check 
payable to this gentleman in Ama- 
rillo, or somewhere else. 

Q. — Do you understand Mr. 
Thomas knew McCann before com- 
ing here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did Mr. Thomas ever make 
any statement to you regarding his 
former acquaintance with McCann? 

A. — Xo, sir; only once when he 
was speaking of Joe McCann. He 
spoke very favorably of him when 
he first came here. 

Q. — Was he friendly with him? 

A. — Yes, sir; he said he was sorry 
for him, as well as I can remember. 

Q. — Did he join in an effort to 
secure a pardon for him? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — What are the rules, Captain 
Mills, regarding permission of 
guards to leave the farm? 

A. — I don't allow the guards to 
ride a horse off the plantation at 
night, no time, Sunday night, or dur- 
ing the week. I do allow them, how- 
ever, to ride off the place on Sun- 
day. 

Q. — And during the six working 
days they are supposed to be on the 
farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — All of them? 

A. — Yes, sir. If they want to go 
off any distance they generally get 
my permission, but of course if they 
want to go down across the lane they 
don't ask me about that. 

Q. — Have you heard about them 
drinking in Brazoria when they go 
away on Sundays 

A. — As I stated awhile ago, I 
heard of one guard being drunk in 
Brazoria. That guard was dis- 
charged. Then I heard, I suppose 
two weeks after it occurred, that 
Captain Thomas and two or three of 
the guards, I don't remember who, 
went up to Brazoria and rode down 
to a negro house up there back 
sorter off in the woods. I don't 
know that I ever saw the house, and 
Captain Thomas went in there with 
them, and they had some whisky. 
and from what I was told about the 
whisky part — I got that part after 
we got them on the stand here — they 
had about this much (indicates with 
fngers). about four fingers,, or the 
bottle about one-fourth full,' and he 
drank some of the whisky with 
them, so I found out, and I could 



go on further and state some other 
things. 

Q. — Did this information come to 
you wholly through other guards? 

A. — I got this information after 
Mr. Thomas started this report. 
Q. — Who told you? 
A. — Guards, I believe. 
Q. — Any citizen tell you? 
A. — Xo, sir: not a citizen from 
Brazoria, but some guards. I don't 
know now who it was. Mr. Thomas 
got this stir going and talked it 
around about the guards running 
after the women and drinking 
whisky, and I don't remember who 
it was, but I found out then he was 
with them in the crowd. 

Q. — Has any citizen of Brazoria 
ever told you of guards drinking or 
visiting these houses? 
A. — Not a soul. 

Q. — Do you recall the names of 
the guards who were with Mr. 
Thomas? 

A. — I can recall two. It was 
George Smith and J. A. Crews. They 
are both on the farm. 

Q. — Will you state what reports 
have reached you regarding the 
guards on the Clemens farm visiting 
negro disorderly houses? 

A. — There has not been a report 
in the world reached me on the sub- 
; ject. only from what I found out 
from talk on the place. 
Q. — State what talk? 
A. — I heard they went to this 
I place and Captain Thomas went there 
; with some of the guards, and I think 
! there was probably another guard 
or two at the place. 

Q. — Do you know their names? 

A. — Xc, sir: I don't know who 

1 they were. I think it was in the 

1 evidence here. It was all in the ev- 

i idence and testimony; and I learned 

j that Captain Thomas went to a 

! house with just one guard then. 

They separated somehow, and went 

to another house with this fellow 

; Crews, and there were two women 

I there, and Thomas wanted to know 

I what the price was. He was told 

it was a dollar. and he says to 

Crews I ha,ve nothing less than a 

$20 bill, and I want you to loan me 

I a dollar, and he loaned him the dol- 

; laf. Crews went in one room and 

I Thomas in another. Crews says he 

■ did not pee)) in anywhere to see 

I what was croins; on, but could im- 

whal went on with a woman 



352 



Report and Findings of 



in a room and a man going in there 
with a dollar. 

Q.- — What proportion of the guards 
on the Clemens farm attend church? 

A.- — I could hardly answer that 
accurately. A good many, however, 
go to the Beach Point Church. 

Q. — How far is that? 

A. — About two miles; and then 
they go to Brazoria to church. 

Q. — Have you ever heard anything 
of the guards or bookkeeper getting 
liquor from the express office in 
Brazoria? 

A. — No, sir; I never did. If they 
got any I don't know anything about 
it. 

Q. — You never made an investiga- 
tion? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You are familiar with the 
statement made by Mr. Thomas re- 
garding the letter he wrote, and 
which he seemed to think was opened 
in the office here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you be disposed to 
maKe a statement regarding that? 

A. — Yes, sir; I will. The letter 
was handed me by Joe McCann. I 
had just come back from Richmond; 
had been at the Eldridge trial. He 
handed me this letter and said: here 
is a letter I would like for you to 
read. I thought when he handed 
it to me it was a convict letter, and 
when I got to reading it, the more 
I read the more interested I got in 
it, and read it. I say the purpose 
of that letter was to injure me, and 
also Mr. Brahan, and I thought the 
best thing to do was to forward a 
copy of that letter to Mr. Brahan, 
which I did. 

Q. — Did you examine that enve- 
lope to see if it had the appearance 
of being opened? 

A. — No, sir. I asked Joe after- 
wards if he opened the letter. He 
said: "No, sir; it was already 
opened." 

Q. — Did you see the envelope at 
that time? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you see the envelope aft- 
erwards? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You could not say whether 
the envelope as it reached McCann 
was sealed and had the name "Thom- 
as written on one corner? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you make the investiga- 
tion to ascertain if it was a fact? 



A. — I did in this way: I asked the 
present bookkeeper, Mr. Mason, if he 
opened that letter, and he said Joe 
did not molest any mail coming into 
this office. He said: "I did not 
open this, that it was already 
opened." 

Q. — He gave you to understand 
the letter was received by him un- 
sealed? 

A. — Yes, sir; as I understand it the 
letter was dropped in the box opened, 
and Joe McCann said he thought it 
was a convict letter. 

Q. — And you could not tell from 
inspecting the letter if it had been 
sealed? 

A. — I could, but I did not see the 
envelope. 

Q. — After showing you the letter, 
did he mail the original? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so, and this 
letter went out that day, I suppose. 

Q. — Then from your personal 
knowledge McCann might have 
opened the letter? 

A. — He could have opened the 
letter. I don't know whether he did 
or not. 

Q. — From your investigation, you 
could not say he did not open it? 

A. — No, sir; I could not say that 
because I was not here. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — Is it the custom here for the 
convicts to leave their mail un- 
sealed? 

A. — Yes, sir; there are no letters 
allowed to go out of here sealed only 
the letters written to the Governor 
or Commissioners. All other letters 
addressed to outside parties are read. 

Q. — Who reads these letters? 

A. — I think Mr. Crews. 

Q. — If a letter is mailed sealed, 
what is done with it? 

A. — It is opened. Joe has opened 
a great many for me and read them 
for me. 

Q. — Joe McCann opens a great 
many letters, does he not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — How do you distinguish be- 
tween the letters of the guards and 
the convicts? Do you suggest that 
the guards, write their names on the 
envelopes? 

A. — No, sir; I don't make any re- 
quest of them at all. 

Q. — Then the letters written by 
the guards and sealed in a plain en- 
velope would be subjected to the 
same scrutiny? 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



353 



A. — No, sir; from the fact we 
know every guard on the place, and 
we become perfectly familiar with 
the guards' names, and it is just the 
same in delivering the mail. Joe 
McCann handles it, and he knows 
every camp where it belongs, and he 
knows the name of every negro 
there. 

Q. — How is the mail collected 
from the different camps? 

A. — It is sent in in mail sacks 
from the different camps. 

Q. — All mail going to the Clemens 
farm is sent to this office? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — If a letter is sent here in a 
plain envelope, how can you deter- 
mine whether it was written by a 
guard or convict? 

A. — You could not determine. 

Q. — Then it is your orders all such 
letters be opened? 

A. — No, sir; it is only wben they 
are caught up with for mailing let- 
ters. 

Q. — I understood you to say that 
all letcers written by convicts ex- 
cept those to the Governor or Com- 
missioners, are read? 

A. — No, sir; they are read. 

Q. — Is it your orders they are to be 
sent to the office at Huntsville? 

A. — No, sir; they are read and 
sealed by the night guards at each 
camp. 

Q. — The night guard at each camp 
is designated as the inspector of 
mails? 

A. — One to read convict mail; 
yes, sir. 

Q^ — Then under what circum- 
stances do they pass by the night 
guards and are opened here? 

A. — I have had only a few letters 
opened here. For instance, when we 
had the mutiny in the Mexican camp; 
Joe showed me one or two letters 
and said he thought I ought to read 
them as they might concern the mut- 
iny. At first I said: Let them go. 
It don't amount to anything. How- 
ever, I had a Mexican come over and 
read them, and I then sent them off. 
If they catch one trying to slip a let- 
ter in the office — say one of those 
trusties — then they are opened and 
read. Now I read those letters. It 
is just once in a while anything of 
that kind will come up. 

Q. — Can you think of any reason 
why McCann would open a letter 
written by Mr. Thomas? 

A. — No. sir. 



Q. — Had there been any difference 
among the guards or other officers 
on the farm and Mr. Thomas prior 
to the time that this letter was 
mailed? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Will you state what in your 
judgment caused the difference be- 
tween Mr. Thomas and the others in 
the management here? 

A. — The only reason I can give is 
that I moved Mr. Thomas from this 
camp to take charge of the Mexican 
camp, and I would like to go ahead 
and state why I moved him. When 
Mr. Thomas was first sent here, I 
think by Mr. Cabell or the Commis- 
sioners, as assistant to me on the 
place at No. 1 Camp, and Mr. Thomas 
was inexneriencen\ knew nothing in 
the world about handling convicts; 
knew nothing whatever about cane 
culture, and he was of very little 
help to me. I will say it placed me 
at times in a very awkward position. 
Mr. Matthews was the dog man, and 
I had to give my instructions to Mr. 
Matthews instead of to Mr. Thomas, 
because he did not know anything 
about executing the orders as I gave 
them to him. The opportunity pre- 
sented itself while Col. Cabell and 
Col. Brahan were on the plantation, 
in February, I think, for me to speak 
about Mr. Thomas to them. They 
asked me how Mr. Thomas was get- 
ting along. I told them he was do- 
ing very well; that I thought he was 
a perfect gentleman, but I said 
"Gentlemen, he has no experience, 
and he is of very little help to me." 
Mr. Brahan spoke up and said, 
"Why don't you put Thomas with 
the Mexicans." I says, "I would like 
to do it. Will you give me Matthews 
as my assistant at No. 1?" He said, 
"Yes." Mr. Cabell spoke and said, 
"I don't know about that. I am 
afraid of Matthews; that he is too 
high strung." I said, "Mr. Cabell, 
you need not be afraid of that. I 
will handle Matthews, and he will do 
what I want him to do or I will get 
rid of him." Mr. Cabell remarked 
then and said, "You are running it. 
You can go ahead and take him, but 
tell Matthews I say he had better be 
very particular." I said, "I assure 
you there will be no trouble come 
from this. I will make him do 
right." When the change was made 
Mr. Thomas flew into a terrible rage. 
I took Mr. Thomas from the room in 
the presence of a witness and told 
Mr. Thomas that the change was 



354 



Keport and Findings of 



made in the very best of feelings, and 
that I wanted him to know that I 
was still his friend. I said, "Mr. 
Thomas, you know you don't know 
anything about cane culture and any- 
thing about handling convicts, but 
that you may learn some day, and 
I want you to go there and take 
charge of No. 4 Camp, or the Mexi- 
cans, and I want you to go there and 
stay with the best of feelings, and if 
you can't do it, I would rather you 
would not take hold of it." He said, 
"The next thing you will want to do 
is to cut my wages." I said, "I will 
see they are not cut." Prom that 
he went to abusing everybody on 
the place. Some man told it he said 
he ought to get a shot-gun and kill 
every s — o — a b — on the place. I 
talked to my wife about it, and I 
put up with him just as long as I 
could, and when I got hold of this 
letter saying I was trying to do him 
harm, and also Mr. Brahan, I saw 
he was not the man who ought to 
be kept on the place. I never both- 
ered the man in my life. The reason 
I did not go about him any more 
than I did, it was no pleasure for me 
to associate in business with that 
kind of man, but I stood it for a 
long time, and would have stood it 
until the end of the year if he had 
not tried to injure me. I tendered 
my resignation to Mr. Cabell in De- 
cember. I was sick and felt I would 
not be able to do my duty to the 
State, and Col. Cabell stated he 
would like for me to withdraw my 
resignation and take a trip to Min- 
eral Wells and see if I could not get 
well, which 1 did, and when I came 
back, Thomas had got the idea into 
his head that he would control this 
farm. He come to me and said, "I 
don't believe you will stay on this 
farm this year. I want you to prom- 
ise me you will notify me ten days 
before you tender your resignation." 
He says, "I want to apply for the 
management of this place, and want 
to know if you will recommend me." 
I says, "I could not do it as you 
have not had the experience." He 
said, "They gave it to Old Smith 
over here, and I can run it as well 
as Smith can," and that is why I 
think he got sore, when I put him 
at the Mexican camp. His idea was 
to be at No. 1 Camp so in the event 
I got out he could follow right along 
in my place, but I know he was la- 
boring under the wrong impression as 
the Commission would not certain- 



ly place a man of his experience in 
my place. 

Q. — Does that conclude the state- 
ment you wish to make? 

A.— Yes, sir. 

Q. — You stated you have about 
fifty-five guards on the Clemens 
farm. Are these all men who have 
lived here for a number of years in 
this part of the country? 

A. — No, sir; they are not. 

Q. — How many new guards did 
you appoint this year? 

A. — I would have to go to the 
records and hunt them up. I have 
employed most of them. They come 
and go and quit all the time. 

Q. — Is it a common expression 
among the guards in the hearing of 
the convicts that they will be glad 
when the bat is restored? 

A. — I never heard one that I know 
of use that expression. I have said 
to the convicts myself once that it 
was strange they could not behave 
themselves. It was in the building. 
That was after a big fight among 
themselves. I told them the Com- 
missioners and everybody else were 
trying to do something for them and 
help them, but they did not appre- 
ciate it, and .that they would continue 
along this line until they got the 
bat restored by their conduct, but 
so far as any conduct of that kind 
was concerned, I was the man who 
did that. I was doing it in the way 
of a lecture. 

Q. — When it was known that the 
Governor had made a suggestion that 
some of the guards might be re- 
placed with trusties, did you hear of 
any statements criticising this sug- 
gestion in the presence of convicts 
by the guards? 

A. — No, sir; not in the presence 
of convicts. I might have heard 
some talk about it. 

Q. — What was the general expres- 
sion among the guards? 

A. — A great many of them thought 
it would not do. I was asked my 
opinion on that, and I expressed my 
opinion freely to Mr. Cabell in a 
letter. 

Q. — It is pertinent only to the ex- 
tent it might affect the discipline 
among the convicts? 

A.— I never heard the guards 
make any statement relative to that 
at all. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



355 



By Judge W. O. Diffie: 

Q. — You spoke about Mr. Thomas 
being .sent to you; what men are 
sent to you by the Commissioners, 
and what positions do they hold? 

A. — Well, Captain Thomas was 
one they- sent down here, and Cap- 
tain Smith at No. 2, and Mr. Mason, 
the bookkeeper. 

Q. — What do you think of the 
Idea of appointing your own assist- 
ant manager? 

A. — I think it is the only way to 
handle a place successfully. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — I understand you have abso- 
lute control of the employing of 
guards? 

A. — Yes, sir; but not all my as- 
sistants. 

Q. — And you never ask them as 
to their political views? 

A. — No, sir; I never asked them 
a question like this in my life. 

Q. — Nor who sent them here? 

A. — No, sir; if I need a guard, I 
will employ him and put him to 
work. If he is sorry and no ac- 
count, I get rid of him, but I never 
question his politics one particle. I 
don't believe that politics ought to 
be mixed up that much with busi- 
ness. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — You described in some detail 
the mutiny that took place some time 
ago and the difficulty you had in 
handling it because of the present 
law and rules of the system. Now, 
I want you to tell us briefly how you 
would have handled that situation, 
if left to do as you pleased about it? 

A. — I will say I could not have 
handled the situation any better 
than I handled it, but I could have 
prevented this mutiny if it had been 
so I could have handled the con- 
victs. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — Did you ever see Mr. Mason, 
your bookkeeper, drinking any 
whisky at all? 

A. — Never saw him in my life. 

Q. — Did you ever see any whisky 
in the office? 

A. — Never. I would not tolerate 
it at all. I believe every man on 
this farm knows I will not tolerat° 
whisky brought around these prem- 
ises. I might get a little for med- 
ical purposes myself, but I am not 
a whisky drinker. 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
CLEMENS FARM. 

Testimony of J. H. Stanley. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Please give your name and 
position in the penitentiary system? 

A. — J. H. Stanley. I am what is 
known as the building man at Camp 
No. 4 on the Clemens farm. 

Q. — How long have you occupied 
this position? 

A. — Since March 2, last. 

Q. — Mr. Stanley, you have read 
the statement of Mr. J. B. Thomas 
who was formerly assistant man- 
ager at the Clemens farm? 

A.— I read the Houston Post re- 
port given before this Committee in 
Houston, and I read a copy of the 
charge he made against the manage- 
ment and guards on this plantation 
before the Commissioners recently. 

Q. — Are any of those charges 
made by Mr. Thomas in his state- 
ment to the Commission true, and 
if so, state? 

A. — I can't say for the reason that 
since I have been on this plantation 
I have seen nothing from my per- 
sonal knowledge that was a viola- 
tion of the law or prison rules, in 
the particular he mentions. 

Q. — You are familiar with the 
rules regarding the penitentiary sys- 
tem? 

A. — I have read the new peniten- 
tiary laws, and for several years I 
have been in touch with the man- 
agers, sergeants and guards on 
these plantation farms, and have 
heard them discussed, though I have 
not read any book of rules except 
the present law. 

Q. — You understand that the rules 
of the Prison Commission prohibit 
drinking on the premises? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you seen any officer or 
any convict, or other persons, drink- 
ing on the Clemens farm since you 
have been there? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — When did you say you came 
here? 

A. — March 2, 1913. 

Q. — Have you ever seen any 
guard or convict gambling in any 
form. 

A. — No, sir. I have seen some of 
k hp Mexicans playing monte or 
noker, and they explained they were 
playing for amusement, and I stop- 
ped a crap game a few nights ago. 



356 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Are convicts allowed cards or 
dice? 

A. — They have several decks of 
cards in the building and I saw 
them playing here last Sunday. 

Q. — Are cards and dice prohibited? 

A. — I have not seen any gambling. 
I saw them playing, but understood 
they were playing for amusement. I 
paid very little attention to the game. 
I know I asked the question of some- 
one: I have heard the matter dis- 
cussed, and it was the impression 
I got they were playing for amuse- 
ment. 

Q. — Do you know P. O. Lumpkin? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever know of his 
drinking to excess on the Clemens 
farm? 

A. — No, sir. I can answer all 
those questions in one. I have not 
seen any person drinking or under 
the influence of liquor since I have 
been here. I have not even seen any 
whisky. 

Q. — Have you been in Brazoria at 
any time with the guards from the 
Clemens farm? 

A. — Only in going and coming to 
court. I went there once with a 
hack for two guards who were ex- 
pected to return, but I brought back 
only one that night. 

Q. — When you were there did you 
notice any conduct on the part of 
the guards that would indicate that 
they were getting liquor in Brazo- 
ria? 

A. — No, sir; I did not. 

Q. — Have you any knowledge of 
any of the guards visiting negro 
houses in Victoria? 

A. — No, sir 

Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
such instances? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have heard some 
talk about it. 

Q. — From the statements that 
have reached you would you be wil- 
ling to say whether or not you think 
the guards make a practice of doing 
that — visiting these houses and get- 
ting drunk? 

A. — Just on hearsay I have not 
tried to form any opinions. It 
would be merely a conclusion of 
mine. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — Is it a matter of rumor? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have heard it talked, 
[n fact, gentlemen, I will tell you it 
has always been a practice more or 
less among the guards, so I under- 



stand from the general talk, to now 
and then drink a little, or visit places 
where there are lewd women, and, in 
fact, I don't think you gentlemen 
need expect to find any preachers or 
Sunday school superintendents on 
these plantations, except behind the 
bars. 

Q. — What I want to know, is it 
common rumor among the guards 
that the average man will assume 
those practices. 

A. — I have not heard much about 
that. I have heard Mr. Thomas talk 
more about that than anyone else. I 
have been right there at Camp No. 
4 attending to my business, and have 
heard very little talk. In fact, I 
have heard Mr. Thomas talk about 
it more than anybody else. He talked 
to me frequently about it, mention- 
ing names, incidents, and things. I 
have heard the matter discussed very 
little regarding that, and, in fact, it 
is my observation that there is very 
little temptation here. I don't see 
any lewd women about the planta- 
tion, and I understand Captain Mills 
don't permit the guards to ride the 
horses to Brazoria at night, and I 
think this place will compare very 
favorably with any of the other 
farms in the system. 

A. — Have you ever heard of con- 
victs being allowed to fight in the 
building without correction? 

A. — No, sir; but they fight some- 
times. 

Q. — Are they punished on all oc- 
casions ? 

A. — Yes, sir; all the fights I have 
witnessed. 

Q. — Did you ever hear of a guard 
saying in the presence of convicts 
that he did not care how often they 
mutinied ? 

A. — I don't remember that remark. 
Someone may have made that re- 
mark, but I don't remember it. I 
don't call to mind that instance. It 
may have been said. There was lots 
said at the time the Mexicans muti- 
nied up there, but I would not un- 
dertake to repeat all that was said 
to the Mexicans or all the Mexicans 
said. There was a half a day's 
"palaver" up there, and they tried 
every way to get them to come out, 
and there was lots said there. 

Q. — Are the guards permitted to 
swear at the convicts or curse them? 

A. — I have not heard a guard 
curse a convict. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



357 



Q. — Have you ever heard a convict 
curse a guard while at work? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have heard those 
Mexicans curse them. I understand 
the Spanish curse words. I hear them 
sometimes curse the guards. It is 
generally in Spanish. 

Q. — Is there any statement regard- 
ing the discipline you care to make 
in regard to the Clemens farm? 

A. — My general impression of what 
I know of the farm here and in Fort 
Bend County is they have better dis- 
cipline on this farm than any of the 
farms up there. 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
CLEMENS FARM. 

Testimony of Joe McCann (white 
convict). 

By Mr. L. Tillotson. 

Q. — What is your name? 

A. — Joe McCann. 

Q. — How long have you been on 
the Clemens farm? 

A. — I think since the 21st of Oc- 
tober, 1912. 

Q.-^Where you before that? 

A. — I remained at Huntsville about 
two days before I came down here. 
Two or three days, I am not sure. 

Q. — How long had you been at 
Huntsville before you were trans- 
ferred here ? 

A. — I think three days, it might 
have been the fourth day. 

Q. — What is your position here? 

A. — Assistant bookkeeper. 

Q. — You were placed in that posi- 
tion immediately on arrival here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you assist Mr. Mason, the 
steward ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you see all the freight that 
comes in ? 

A. — Well, no, sir; I do not. I see 
the express, because that is unloaded 
at the office. The freight is unloaded 
at the various warehouses where 
freight is kept; consequently, I don't 
see that. 

Q. — Have you ever seen any pack- 
ages you thought contained liquor? 

A. — No, sir; I have not. 

Q. — Have you ever had reason to 
believe any package contained liquor? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Any of the guards or trusties 
ever talk to you about a shipment of 
liquor? 

A. — No, sir: they did not. 



Q. — Did Mr. Mason ever bring any 
liquor into the office? 

A. — No sir. 

Q. — Anyone else? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you keep the time of the 
convicts ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You know what is due the 
different convicts, do you not? 

A. — No, sir; I could not answer 
that. We have a list that shows the 
overtime for 1912. 

Q. — Do you keep the overtime ac- 
counts on the farm? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — It is not kept here at all? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you keep the overtime on 
the farm? 



overtime for the 
ever loaned any 



A. — Only the 
different camps. 

Q. — Have you 
convict money? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have some. 

Q. — Will you be able to state how 
many loans you have made since 
you have been here? 

A. — Well, I would say some eight 
or ten. 

Q. — No more than that? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What is the largest amount 
you ever loaned any one man? 

A. — I think it was $31. 

Q. — What did you charge him for 
the use of that money? 

A. — I charged him 25 cents on the 
dollar. That was about six weeks 
before he went out. I loaned him 
$12 and he got him some shoes and 
things, and then I loaned him some 
more in a few days before he went 
out and I charged him 10 per cent, 
on that, and then I loaned him some 
more money just a few days before 
he went out, and I never charged 
him a penny on that. 

Q. — Have you a regular scale of 
rates on which you charge? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What is the highest rate you 
have charged any man? 

A. — The most I ever charged a 
man was $3 and he kept it about two 
months and 10 days, and he paid me 
back $4.50. 

Q. — Did you have money when you 
came to Huntsville? 

A. — I did not bring but very lit- 
tle money with me when I came here. 

Q. — From whom did you get the 
money that you loaned the convicts? 



358 



Report and Findings of 



A. — The major part of it I earned 
out of the barber shop; cleaning and 
pressing clothes; all but $15. 

Q. — Have you borrowed any sum 
of money since you came here? 

A. — I could not tell you positive. 
I have borrowed, I think, $3 or $4. 
However, I did not borrow it to loan. 
When I borrowed this money I spent 
it with the Hampil Mercantile Co. 
at Brazoria. 

Q. — Mr. McCann, do you handle 
the mails when they come in from 
the different camps? 

A. — The greater part of the time. 

Q. — Is it your duty to make up the 
outgoing mail? 

A. — I do it a great deal of the 
time. I assist in it. Sometimes I 
do, at least. 

Q. — When Mr. Mason is not in the 
office, do you read the unopened let- 
ters that come in the mails? 

A. — When one comes in unopened 
from the other camps, I do not. If 
the letter is open I just simply pull 
it out and see whose name is signed 
at the bottom. 

Q. — Are all those open letters 
brought to the attention of Mr. Mason 
or Captain Mills by you? 

A. — If it is a negro man writing to 
his wife, I do not. 

Q. — You merely exercise your 
judgment and seal the letter and 
send it away? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are those your instructions? 

A. — Well, I have never had any 
positive instructions. I think the in- 
structions Captain Mills gave to me 
was he wanted the letters from this 
camp. I don't know that he spoke 
to me about the other camps. He 
wanted the letters the convicts wrote 
here to be read; unless addressed to 
the Commissioners or the Governor, 
and in that event to send them out 
without being read. 

Q. — Have you heard any sugges- 
tion to the guards that they write 
their names on the envelopes so 
their mail may be distinguished from 
that of the convicts? 

A. — The guards mail their own 
mail in the office. Their mail is not 
mixed with the convict mail. 

Q. — If Camp No. 4 makes up its 
packet of mail, the mail of the guards 
and convicts is received at Camp No. 
1 in one package? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



Q. — Then how could you distin- 
guish between the mail of the con- 
victs and the mail of the guards? 

A.- 5 — Well, you can't do that. The 
mail that comes from No. 4 camp, it 
has orders in the mail, and daily 
reports; the convicts' mail, the 
guardsf mail, and assistant ser- 
geants', and everybody's mail comes 
in a poke from that particular camp. 
When the mail comes in, I assort the 
poke; get out the letters and orders; 
retain the orders for the camp, and 
also the daily report. 

Q. — You know Mr. J. B. Thomas? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you know Mr. Thomas be- 
fore you came here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What were your relations to 
Mr. Thomas before coming to Hunts- 
ville? 

A. — Before I came to Huntsville, I 
was never intimately acquainted with 
him. I ran a grocery store in Den- 
ton, Texas. I saw him several times 
and knew him, yet I was not ac- 
quainted with him. He was around 
there with people I did business with. 
I have sold him groceries out of the 
store. 

Q.— Have you made an effort to se- 
cure a pardon since you have been on 
the Clemens farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did Captain Thomas offer to 
assist you? 

A. — There was nothing said about 
it until I got a petition up and Cap- 
tain Mills signed it, and Captain 
Thomas came in the office and I asked 
him if he would sign it, and he did. 

Q. — Was he accustomed to talk to 
you about his appointment here as 
Assistant Manager? 

A. — Well, yes, sir. 

Q. — Before his removal to Camp 
No. 4, and after, both? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How often did you see him 
during the week? 

A. — I would see quite a little bit 
of him every day, and sometimes 
several times during the day. 

Q. — Do you recall the incident of 
a letter written by Captain Thomas 
to which he refers in the statement 
issued by him? 

A. — I do, yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you recall the day that let- 
ter was received at the office? 

A. — Well, no, sir. I could not tell 
the day. I don't remember. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



359 



Q. — What time of the day was it 
when your attention was directed to 
it? 

A. — I would say about between 
12:30 and 1 o'clock. 

Q. — How long did you retain that 
letter in your possession before men- 
tioning it to Captain Mills? 

A. — Just as soon as he came over 
from the house; immediately after 
I got the mail put up. 

Q. — Do you recall the character of 
the envelope in which that letter 
came into the office? 

A. — No, sir; it was an ordinary 
business envelope. 

Q. — Was that letter sealed or un- 
sealed? 

A. — That letter was unsealed. 

Q. — Did you examine it to see if it 
had ever been sealed? 

A. — I did not. There is a box 
right on the outside of the door where 
we put the guards' mail. I put the 
convicts' mail that goes to No. 4 camp 
on the left hand side of the door, and 
on the opposite side there is a box 
there for Camp No. 1, and I saw 
this letter in this box.. I picked it up 
and it was not sealed, and I did not 
know if it was a convict letter or not. 
I simply pulled it out of the envel- 
ope and took a glance at it, and the 
first thing I saw it simply shocked 
and startled me. I just handed it 
to Captain Mills and asked him to 
look at that. 

Q. — Did that envelope have Mr. 
Thomas' name in the upper left hand 
corner ? 

A. — No, sir; I could not say. I paid 
very little attention to that. 

Q. — Was it your custom to look at 
the contents of all unsealed letters? 

A. — Yes, sir; unless I knew a cit- 
izen had written it, and if I knew 
that, I would not. It is a custom 
for a large per cent of the convicts' 
mail to come unsealed and quite a 
few will come over from the pickets. 
It occurred no longer ago than yes- 
terday, there was a man dropped a 
letter in the box, and I asked him to 
turn it over to the picket, and he 
turned it over to Mr. Crews. 

Q. — Had Mr. Thomas ever dis- 
cussed with you any of the matters 
mentioned in that letter? 

A. — Well, yes, sir; though I don't 
know he had just discussed it in the 
way he wrote in the letter. I have 
heard him make some very deroga- 
tory remarks of Mr. Brahan while 
in the barber shop. He came in one 



day and asked me if Captain Mills 
was going to resign. I told him I 
did not know. He slapped me on 
the shoulder and said if I found it 
out, that he would like for me to 
put him next, and he came in the 
barber shop afterwards to get a 
shave and asked me a number of 
questions of which I knew absolutely 
nothing about, and he stated in that 
conversation he would likely make 
the next race for Governor and then 
he asked me some questions about 
Mr. Mason and Mr. Matthews, and 
when I told him I did not know, he 
used an ugly word, and I told Captain 
Thomas that it took half of my own 
time to attend to my own business 
and the other half to let the , other 
man's business alone. He got of- 
fended at this, and when he got up 
he handed me a dime, and I don't 
think he ever spoke to me any more. 

Q. — Did he ever talk to you about 
political matters? 

A. — Yes, sir; quite a good deal. 

Q. — In general, what were his re- 
marks ? 

A. — There was so awful much of 
it I don't remember it all. He said 
he bought out the Denton County pa- 
per for Governor Colquitt, and paid 
$65 out of his own pocket, and then 
went over to Dallas and got $75 more 
and completed the purchase, and said 
he was entitled to something good, 
and was not uneasy but what he 
would get it, and he told me more 
times than one in his conversation to 
me that if I knew of anything that 
would be of interest to him, he 
wanted me to tell him. 

Q. — Did he talk to you about the 
men drinking on the farms? 

A. — No, sir; I never did hear him 
speak about the drinking. I have 
heard him speak of $35 "mulligens," 
that was the term he used, and how 
common they were and he did say 
after he went to Camp No. 4 — he told 
me one evening in the barber shop 
he was a good deal better satisfied 
than he thought he would be, that 
he liked it fine, and then he began 
to discuss with me about Charlie 
Watson in Denton, and was going to 
bring him down and ship down a 
number of other boys from Denton, 
and spoke about having a model 
camp. 

Q. — Did he ever complain to you 
about the guards not going to church 
with him? 
A. — No, sir. 



360 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Did you have any knowledge 
of the guards gambling? 

A. — No, sir; I have not. When I 
am through work in the ofice at 
night — I have quite a lot of work to 
■ — I am not around where the guards 
are. 

Q. — Have you ever seen them play- 
ing cards? 

A. — Yes, sir; on two occasions. 
That was in the early part of the 
spring, when it was raining so much. 
I remember the date. I think it 
was Captain Thomas, Mr. Howard, 
Mr. Elrod, Mr. Sayers and Mr.George 
Elrod, and I passed along the door 
and the door was open, and they were 
playing cards, and Mr. Thomas called 
to me to go over to the picket and 
tell Captain Lee to send him 25 cents 
worth of cigars and charge them to 
him, and I did and brought them 
back, and he passed them around the 
table. 

Q— You never heard of anyone 
playing any game for money? 

A. — No, sir. 

A. — Did you see Mr. Thomas when 
he was here just before leaving the 
farm? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did he state to you why he 
was going away? Did he give you 
any reasons for leaving? 

A. — No, sir; I talked with Captain 
Thomas over the 'phone when he was 
at Brazoria, but did not have any 
conversation with him while here. 
I called him over the 'phone at Bra- 
zoria and told him I had just learned 
he protested my pardon, and I would 
like to know on what grounds, and 
he asked me what I was going to do 
about it, and I remarked to Captain 
Thomas that I would appeal to the 
people of Denton County and he said 
the people of Denton County would 
not believe these thieves down here 
and hung up the 'phone. That was 
all the conversation I had with him. 

Q. — Did he enter his protest 
against your application for pardon 
after you wrote that letter? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q.— Have you any reason to believe 
his protest was made after that let- 
ter was written? 

A. — No, sir; I have not. He told 
sne over the 'phone he would see I 
stayed in the prison twenty-two 
jmohths. 

Q.- — Did he state his reasons for 
-making that statement? 

A. — No, sir; he did not. 



Q. — Why do you think he made 
that statement? 

A. — Wiell, I am sure I did not 
know at the time, though I learned 
afterwards he asserted I opened his 
letter. 

Q. — And you think he believed 
you had opened his letter, and pro- 
tested to the Governor against giv- 
ing you a pardon? Is that the only 
reason you can assign? 

A. : — Yes, sir; every one on earth. 

Q. — What reason can you think 
actuated Captain Thomas in making 
the statement? 

A. — Well, I could explain it bet- 
ter by saying to you that Captain 
Thomas came to me on various oc- 
casions and asked me to do certain 
small things for him I could not do. 
I have made a practice of doing 
nothing without the permission of 
Captain Mills. For instance, he has 
asked of me information that I felt 
I have no right to give Captain 
Thomas after he was discharged, and 
in fact after he went down to the 
sugar house, felt cold and rather dis- 
tant toward everyone. It appears 
that way to me, and it has appeared 
to me sufficiently strong that I be- 
lieve that if you stay on splendid 
terms with Captain Thomas you have 
got to agree with him. He will 
come into the office and go to dis- 
cussing politics and bemoaning the 
members of the Legislature that 
make certain statements until we ab- 
solutely could not work in the office, 
and we would get up and retire un- 
til he finished. I never did until 
the day Captain Thomas left here, 
know that he accused me of open- 
ing his letter. I told him that day 
that the letter was in the box on 
the outside of the door and opened, 
just as it was laying when I took 
the letters out of it, and his cook 
was the one who put it in the mail 
box. He brings the mail and goes 
after the mail, except on Sundays, 
when Captain Thomas came him- 
self. 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
CLEMENS FARM. 

Testimony of Bill Henderson 
(Negro Convict). 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — What is your name? 

A. — Bill Henderson. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



361 



Q. — How long have you been at 
the Clemons farm? 

A. — About two years and eight 
or nine months. 

Q. — Anybody give you a drink once 
in a while? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you had a drink since 
you have been here? 

A. — Yes, sir; one since I been 
here; when I first came down here 
under Captain Brooks, 1911, I think. 

Q. — Who gave you this drink? 

A. — A man up there at town. 

Q. — Are you the transfer man? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you ever go to the ex- 
press office and get packages there? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you get boxes that look 
like they had bottles in them? 

A. — I could not tell. 

Q. — Do you ever give out boxes 
to anybody on the road? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What do you do with the 
freight when you get here? 

A. — I unload it and come to din- 
ner. 

Q. — Did they put you in the build- 
ing with the other boys at night? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you ever see any of them 
with whiskey? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do the boys gamble in there? 

A. — Not that I knows of. They 
play for fun. I play a little for fun, 
and they are bound to play for fun 
or I ain't a coming in. 

Q. — Do you know Mr. Johnson? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Who is he? 

A. — Our walking boss residing in 
the building. 

Q. — Did he ever tell you he had 
some whiskey in the building? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Never told you he would give 
you a drink? 

A. — Never did; no, sir. 

Q. — Do you boys borrow money 
up there from anybody? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you heard of the boys 
doing it? 

A. — No, sir; I have not. 

Q. — Have you seen any convicts 
after they were turned loose at 
Brazoria? 

A. — Yes, sir; I carried nearly all 
of them that has been turned loose 
the last six months. 

Q. — Do you ever talk to any of 
them after they are released? 



A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do they ever say anything to 
you about their release money be- 
ing taken away from them? 

A. — No, sir; never did. I knows 
one thing; a whole lot claim they 
drawed more than was coming to 
them. 

Q. — Do you go to Brazoria by 
yourself? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — If a man wants to find some 
whiskey do you think a man could 
go to Brazoria and find it? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — Did you ever hear of any talk 
of that kind? 

A. — I have heard a little talk of 
that kind, but if they was giving it 
away it wouldn't do me no good. I 
ain't got no money to buy none of 
it. 

Q. — When you were there did you 
ever see anybody drinking? 

A. — No, sir; I might have saw 
them, but can't say it and tell the 
truth. 

Q. — You are positive, Bill, you 
never saw a bottle of whiskey on 
this camp? 

A. — No, sir; and I think I would 
know it for I shore am acquainted 
with it. 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
CLMENS FARM. 

Testimony of Sam Stiles, Negro Con- 
vict: 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — What is your name? 

A. — Sam Stiles. 

Q. — How long have you been in 
the penitentiary, Sam? 

A. — I came to the penitentiary in 
1903. 

Q. — What do you do here now? 

A. — I drive the ox team now; haul 
wood; first one thing and another — 
haul freight. 

Q. — Are you what they call a 
trusty? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you around the buildings 
a great deal, Sam? 

A. — Yes, sir; at night; especially 
at night. 

Q. — What time do you come in? 

A. — First near the first trusty go- 
ing into the building every evening. 

Q. — Did you know Mr. Thomas 
who was assistant manager here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



362 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Did you ever see anybody hav- 
ing whiskey around the building? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you see the convicts when 
they are discharged? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have seen five or 
six. 

Q. — Do t#iey ever isend you to 
Brazoria with them? 

A. — No, sir; the last one I seen 
makes probably five or six. 

Q. — What were you doing in Bra- 
zoria? 

A. — I was there with the ox team 
after a car of grocery and freight. 

Q. — Did they ever talk to you 
about the money they got when they 
were discharged? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever hear one say 
they collected some money from him? 

A. — No,- sir. 

Q. — You never told anyone that a 
discharged man told you they took 
his money away from him? 

A. — No; I never saw a discharged 
man paid off. 

Q. — Did you ever talk to Mr. 
Thomas about men being discharged? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever talk to him 
about any of the convicts on the 
farm? 

A. — Yes, sir; but nothing like that. 

Q. — What did you talk about? 

A. — Just about our home affairs; 
how we act and conduct and try to 
get along. 

Q. — Where did you come from, 
Sam? 

A. — De Witt County. 

Q. — You did not know Mr. Thomas 
before you came here? 

A. — No, sir; the first time I seen 
Mr. Thomas was last August. 

Q. — Did you ever hear of con- 
victs selling their overtime or per 
diem of 10 cents per day, to anyone 
— any other convict or guard? 

A. — No, sir; I have never heard 
them selling their overtime to any 
of the guards. 

Q. — Would the convicts trade their 
time among themselves? 

A. — No, sir; I have never seen 
them trade among themselves. I 
tends to nobody's business except 
mine. I has got too long in the pen- 
itentiary to see after anybody. I 
lost my health and sick all the time 
and got no time to fool after no- 
body. 

Q. — Did Mr. Thomas ever tell you 
anything about the bookkeeper here? 



A. — Yes, sir. 
Q. — What did he say? 
A. — He said the bookkeeper and 
Convict Joe . . . 

Q. — Who is Joe McCann? 
A. — He said they were robbing 
them out of all their money. 

Q. — What were you doing when 
he told you that? 

A. — Setting on an ox wagon going 
to Brazoria. 

Q. — Was he going with you? 
A. — Yes, sir. 
Q. — Same wagon? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What else did you talk about? 
A. — He spoke about men getting 
drunk and one thing and another. 

Q. — Who did he tell you got 
drunk? 

A. — Guards. 

Q. — Did he name them? 
•A. — Yes, sir; he said some. 
Q. — Do you remember them? 
A. — He said about the sugar house. 
Q. — Do you know any of them? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — What did he talk about, Sam? 
A. — That was about all. 
Q. — Was that the only time he 
talked to you? 
A.— Yes, sir. 
By Captain E. B. Mills: 
Q. — That was the evening he 
moved? 

A. — Yes, sir. 
By Mr. L. Tillotson: 
Q. — This talk you had with him 
was after he resigned? 

A. — Yes, sir; he was moving. He 
had the things in the wagon. 

Q. — Did you ever have a talk with 
him about the convicts or guards be- 
fore that? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How long did you say you 
have been on the Clemens farm? 

A. — 1903, November 8. I like 
three months and seven days being 
in the penitentiary ten years flat. 

Q. — Do you convicts get any whis- 
key in the building? 

A. — I have never seen a man in the 
building with any whiskey or wine 
either. 

• — Did you ever hear of any 
guards drinking around the building? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Never say any whiskey 
around? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Lieutenant Governor Mayes: 
Q. — Do you know the man who 
runs the pool hall over at Brazoria? 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



363 



A. — I don't know anything about 
the pool room. I don't go around 
them. 

Q. — Do you know the man who 
runs it? 

A. — No, sir; I don't know him. 

Q. — Did he ever give you a pack- 
age to go over to Clemens? 

A. — No, sir; the only package I 
know of is the freight what is un- 
loaded from the car and put in the 
wagon. 

Q. — You never got anything from 
the pool hall? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You have got packages out of 
the express office? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Any package for anybody ex- 
cept Captain Mills? 

A. — Sometimes a small package 
like that (indicating with hands 
package about one foot in length) or 
bigger for convicts. It would be a 
pair of shoes or citizens clothes, or 
books. 

Q. — Packages for the guards, too, I 
suppose? 

A. — There might be. I don't 
know. 

Q. — Did the guards ever tell you to 
deliver these packages to them; that 
there was whiskey in those pack- 
ages? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Anybody that you know ever 
brought any whiskey for anybody 
from Brazoria? 

A. — If he has, I don't know it. 

Q. — Were you before Judge Camp- 
bell when he was down here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Has anybody spoken to you 
about testifying before Judge Camp- 
bell? Has anybody told you what 
you must say? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Neither one of these Commit- 
tees? 

A. — No, sir; not a soul under 
Heaven. 

Q. — Are you afraid to tell the 
truth? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How many times have you 
been punished? 

A. — I got twelve licks in 1907 on 
the railroad about dumping some dirt 
in a scraper. 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
CLEMENS FARM. 

Testimony of Al. Woods, negro con- 
vict. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — What is your name? 

A.— Al. Woods. 

Q. — How long have you been on 
the Clemens farm, Al? 

A. — About a year. 

Q. — Where did you come from? 

A.— Caldwell. 

Q.— What do you do? 

A. — Haul freight and wood. 

Q. — How long have you been haul- 
ing freight? 

A. — About eight months. 

Q. — You take a wagon and go to 
Brazoria after express and freight 
for the farm ? 

A. — Sometimes since the engine 
broke down in February. 

Q. — Do they send you to the ex- 
pres office in Brazoria for anything 
that comes by express ? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever get anything out 
of the express office at Brazoria? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — When you go there they give 
you everything that belongs to the 
farm; Captain Mills, guards and con- 
victs, and everybody? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — When you bring it here what 
do you do with it? 

A. — Give it to the steward. 

Q. — You don't take it around to the 
other farms. 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Has the express agent ever 
said anything to you about the pack- 
age of freight when he gave it to 
you? 

Q. — Never told you what was in 
the package? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Ever see any package that had 
bottles in them ? 

A. — I think it was bottles from 
Huntsville; I think drugs. 

Q. — Can you read? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever see the word, 
"bottles," written in plain letters be- 
side the name? 

A. — No sir. 

Q. — Did you ever receive any jugs? 

A. — No, sir; no jugs. 

Q. — When you were in Brazoria, 
did you ever see any guards up there? 

A. — A great many times; yes, sir. 



364 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Did you ever see one drink- 
ing? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Anybody on the farm, or in 
Brazoria, ever give you a drink? 

A. — I dont' drink. All I know, I 
carry myself in a way I don't drink, 
and they don't offer me none of it. 

Q. — Did you ever hear of any of 
the guards having whisky on ( the 
place ? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have heard it. 
Some kind of a riot come up, and 
I heard it from Captain Thomas, but 
I never seen any. 

Q. — From whom did you hear that 
there was whisky? 

A. — Captain Thomas; he asked me 
if I was hauling it? 

Q. — How many times did he talk to 
you about it? 

A. — He mentioned it twice, and 
then he got on the wagon with me 
and went to Brazoria with and talked 
to me about it. 

Q. — Where were you when he 
mentioned it to you on the farm? 

A. — I was at my work down in the 
sugar house. 

Q. — And he came and asked you 
whether you had seen anybody with 
whisky ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.— What did you tell him? 

A. — I told him I had not. 

Q. — When he went to Brazoria, 
when was that? 

A. — After he quit the farm and 
was going back. 

Q. — Was he going away then? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — When you went up to Brazoria 
and saw some of the guards there, 
did they ever ask you to go to the 
express office and get a package for 
them? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You never delivered any pack- 
ages to the guards up there? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever deliver any pack- 
age of any kind to anybody except 
here on the farm? 

A. — No, sir; nobody ever caught 
me out of the wagon while on the 
way. 

Q. — Nobody got a package out of 
the wagon while on the way? 

A. — No sir; not one. 

Q. — Did you ever see convicts 
fighting in the building? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have seen negroes 
get into a scrap around there? 



Q. — What is done with them when 
they fight? 

A. — Punish them a little, accord- 
ing to the law. 

Q. — Convicts ever trade their time 
— over time and 10 cents per day? 

A. — I don't know. 

Q. — Did you ever sell any of 
yours ? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — No one else sell it? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you haul discharged men 
to Brazoria when they leave? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q.— Who takes them? 

A. — The yard man; Bill Gilmore. 

Q. — Have you seen any of them in 
Brazoria after they were discharged? 

A. — A great many of them. 

Q.— Did they talk to you? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did any one of them ever tell 
you the bookkeeper or anyone else 
on the farm had taken any part of 
his money? 

A. — No, sir; they did not. 

Q. — Did they ever talk to you about 
the bookkeeper or anybody else col- 
lecting the money loaned them? 

A. — No, sir; they have not. 

Q. — Do you know Mr. Mason? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever go fishing with 
Mr. Mason? _ 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.— When was that? 

A. — It was along in April. 

Q. — How many men were there 
that day? Was that on Sunday? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q.— How many men you say was 
there? 

A. — There was ten or twelve. 

Q. — Do you remember all of them? 

A. — I don't know all of them. They 
all work for the farm. 

Q. — Tell me who they were. 

A. — (No response.) 

Q. — Mr. Mason? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Mr. Johnson. 

A. — Yes, sir; Mr. Crowe; Mr. An- 
derson, and a brother of Mr. John- 
son. 

Q. — Mr. Smith there? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you remember any others? 

A. — Mr. McWilliams; them's all 
I know. 

Q. — Which one of them was it 
that brought the whiskey? 

A. — If there was any whiskey out 
there — I drove the hack and carried 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



365 



Mr. Smith, Mr. Mason and Mr. John- 
son and Mr. Crowe in the hack — 
and I saw no whiskey. 

Q. — What camp did you start from 
with them? 

A. — No. 4 Camp. 

Q. — What did they take with 
them? 

A. — They carried fishing poles and 
a frying pan and when we got down 
there they gave me some money to 
buy fish with, and they went on fish- 
ing down below the bridge. 

Q. — Did they carry any bait with 
them? 

A. — No, sir; they got crabs and 
caught shrimp out of the river. 

Q. — Have any boxes in the hack? 

A. — Yes, sir; two. 

Q. — What was in the boxes? 

A. — Cups, plates — 

Q. — If there were any bottles in 
the box would you have seen them? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Was that the only hack there? 

A. — There was a wagon there from 
No. 3. 

Q. — Did you see the wagon? 

A. — Yes, sir; I was in the wagon. 

Q. — Was there anyone else there 
except the guards? 

A. — Yes, sir; Captain Thomas' 
daughter there; ladies there. 

Q. — I mean was there any other 
men around there. Were they all 
guards? 

A. — Yes, sir; they just come and 
eat dinner and went back fishing. 

Q. — Did you hear any talk among 
them about having any whiskey on 
this trip? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You did not hear them talk- 
ing about it at any time? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Who was it that told you they 
had five quarts of whiskey there at 
that time? 

A. — Captain Thomas. 

Q. — Did you hear about there be- 
ing a jug of whiskey? 

A. — Captain Thomas said there 
was. I did not see it. 

Q. — Could Mr. Mason have brought 
a jug of whiskey out there without 
you knowing it? 

A. — I did not see it, and I did not 
smell it. I did not see any and I 
shore believe I could have smelled it. 

Q. — Who settled with the dis- 
charged men in Brazoria when you 
saw them there? 

A. — I think Mr. Mason settled with 
them. 



Q. — Does he go there to settle 
with them? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you see the men after 
he settled with them? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — And none of them said any- 
thing to you about money being col- 
lected from them? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did anybody talk to you about 
these questions being asked you since 
Mr. Thomas left here except Mr. 
Campbell? 

A. — No, sir; no one personally. 

Q. — When you were down on that 
fishing trip did you hear of any of 
the men having a difficulty? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Any quarrels among them? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you see anybody that 
looked like they had been in a fight? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Anybody bruised up and 
scratched? 

A. — Did not pay any attention to 
anybody scratched up. 

Q. — If anything of the kind had 
happened you would have seen it? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — You stayed all day and came 
back with them in the hack? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever think about 
running off? 

A.- — Never have; no, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever say anything 
to Mr. Thomas about this matter 
worrying you? 

A. — No, sir; I never have. 

Q. — Do convicts ever gamble 
among themselves in this building? 

A. — I don't know, f don't gamble 
mvself, and I never saw anybody put- 
ting any money down. 

Q. — Do the boys ever carry any 
dice in. their pockets? 

A. — I never saw them; no, sir. 

Q. — When you were over at Bra- 
zoria, did you ever see any of the 
guards going around any of these 
houses? 

A. — No, sir; I don't pay no atten- 
tion to that. 

Q. — Would you be afraid to say so 
if they had? 

A. — No, sir; I never run around 
them. 

Q. — Nobody ever said anything to 
you about what you should tell here? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — No one tell you you would 
bn pp.iled up here and asked ques- 
tions? 



366 



Report and Findings of 



A. — I was told this morning by 
phone. 

Q. — Before this morning? 

A. — I was before Committee one 
time to investigate and ask questions. 

Q. — But before Mr. Campbell, did 
anybody tell you you would be asked 
Questions about it? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — And you did know before Mr. 
Campbell came you would be asked 
any questions about it? 

A. — No, sir. 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
CLEMENS FARM. 

Testimony of H. H. Matthews. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Will you please state your 
name? 

A.— H. H. Matthews. 

Q. — In what capacity are you con- 
nected with the Clemens farm? 

A. — Assistant manager, Camp No. 

Q. — How long have you been here? 

A. — Since February 26, as assist- 
ant manager. 

Q. — How long have you been on the 
farm? 

A. — The biggest part of the time 
for nine years. 

Q. — In what capacity? 

A. — Assistant sergeant and dog 
man. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the rules 
of the Commission? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is it understood by guards 
when they accept service on the 
farm they are not to drink or gam- 
ble? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you, within the last two 
years, seen a guard drunk? 

A. -No, sir. 

Q.-— Have you ever seen a guard 
drank on this place? 

A. — No, sir; not on this place. 

Q. — Does it happen now and then 
that a guard will bring in some 
whisky when he goes out? 

A. — No, sir; not that I know of. 

Q. — At no time have you seen a 
guard bring in whisky? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you found that whisky 
has been smuggled in to the con- 
victs? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you ever caught the trus- 
ties with whisky? 

A. — No, sir. 



Q. — Have you ever heard of a trusy 
getting cocaine, or drugs of any kind, 
and slipping it in to the convicts? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is there any gambling among 
the convicts in the houses ? 

A. — It is just as Captain Mills 
stated. They play cards and domi- 
noes, and that is all we allow. 

Q. — If you knew they had klice 
would you take them away from 
them? 

A. — Yes, sir; I took away a pair 
last week. I don't know that he was 
playing with them, nut I knew what 
he would do. 

Q. — How do you think the convicts 
get their dice and other things they 
hide in their bunks? 

A. — It is a mystery to me, and 
there is only one way for me to say. 
They get them through the trusties. 

Q. — Do the guards ever play cards 
for pastime? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever hear of any of 
them playing for money? 

A. — No, sir; not on this place. 

Q. — No wager at all? 

A. — Cigars. During the rainy 
weather in the winter we all played 
for the cigars. When a man got froze 
out, he set them up. 

Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
gambling being carried on at Bra- 
zoria ? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — No clubs, or anywhere else, 
where they meet and gamble? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — No rumor about such gambling 
places being located there? 

A. — No sir. 

Q. — Have you any knowledge of 
the express matter received by the 
farm? 

A. — Yes, sir; some. 

Q. — Have you ever known of guards 
receiving whisky, or liquor of any 
kind, by express. 

A. — No, sir; they could not. All 
the express comes through the office, 
No. 1, and someone would be bound 
to see it if it was going on. 

Q. — There is no way for trusties 
to take these packages from the 
wagons and distribute them? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How often do you visit Bra- 
zoria during the week? 

A. — Every Saturday evening or 
Sunday morning I go home. 

Q. — You have seen a number of 
guards there? 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



367 



A. — Yes, sir; some go there nearly 
every Sunday to preaching or riding 
around. 

Q. — Are there any places there peo- 
ple can get liquor if they tried. 

A. — Not that I know of. 

Q. — Have you ever seen any guards 
going around negro houses there? 

A. — No, sir; I have not seen it. * 

Q. — You have heard of it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many times you heard of 
it. 

A. — Just once. 

Q. — What time was that? 

A. — Captain Thomas told me about 
that when he was assistant here at 
No. 1 camp, and I was dog man. 

Q.— What did he say about that? 

A.— He went up to Brazoria with 
the boys, and I asked what he was 
doing up there, and he said he was 
riding around with the boys seeing 
what he could catch on to, and I re- 
marked to him he ought to be 
ashamed of himself. I told him I 
had been here a long time and I had 
never been around such places as 
that in broad open daylight, any- 
way. 

Q. — Did you see the man Captain 
Mills discharged for drinking? 

A. — I saw him after he was dis- 
charged. He did not work at this 
camp. 

Q. — Are the guards accustomed to 
swearing at the men? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever hear a guard say 
he hoped the bat would be restored? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think I ha\e. 
I know not in the presence of the 
men. I have heard it discussed sev- 
eral times among them, but never in 
the presence of any of the men. 

Q. — How many of the men on the 
Clemens farm would you say are in 
favor of restoring the bat now? 

A. — I could not tell you that. I 
have only heard them speak of it; I 
never heard a one say he was in favor 
of it. 

Q. — Are there any guards here now 
that have served longer than two 
years ? 

A. — We have several; yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you be willing to give it 
as your opinion that the guards who 
handled convicts when the law 
authorthized the bat are in favor of 
it being restored ? 

A. — I could not say. It was mere- 
ly talk as to how they feel about it, 



but would not be surprised if they 
would not be in favor of it. 

Q. — Is it the general impression 
among the guards who handled con- 
victs when the bat was authorized 
that it is the best way to control 
the convicts? 

A. — That is the general impres- 
sion. 

Q. — Do they talk about this in the 
presence of the convicts? 

A. — No, sir. That is one thing that 
is strictly against my rules as well 
as Captain Mills'. They shall not 
talk about anything except the work 
in the presence of convicts. 

Q. — Have you ever heard of any of 
the guards buying overtimes and per 
diem from the convicts? 

A. — No, sir; they don't do it. 

Q. — Do convicts trade their time 
or per diem among each other? 

A. — Yes, sir; and have been doing 
it for twenty years to my certain 
knowledge. 

Q. — Is there no way to prohibit 
that? 

A. — I guess there is a way, but 1 
don't see that there is any harm to 
it? 

Q. — Have you any knowlegde or 
information of the bookkeeper here 
buying the overtime? 

A. — Mr. Mason does not. I know 
Joe McCann deals with them that 
way. 

Q. — Has any convict ever said to 
you that his overtime had been taken 
away from him? 

A. — Not a one, and they surely 
would if that had occurred. 

Q. — You have seen them after they 
were free to talk about it, and after 
they received their money and were 
ready to go away none of them made 
any complaint to you? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you see the statements 
of Mr. Thomas' 

A. — Yes, sir. 
of it. 

Q. — I«o you care to make any 
statement regarding what he said 
about you being opposed to the pres- 
■ pt administration? 

A. — He charged me with being op- 
I to the present administration, 
and he cursed me and abused me for 
everything he could tbink of to other 
men, but I paid no attention to it, 
for if be did not have man enough 
about him to come to me and say 
It to my face, I considered the source 



That is, I saw part 



368 



Report and Findings of 



and let it go. I did all his work for 
him. 

Q. — Is there any reason why a 
good guard cannot get along here? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You having been here nine 
years, would be able to say about 
what proportion of the guards are 
men who are raised or living in this 
vicinity? 

A. — We have very few guards liv- 
ing in the vicinity at this time, but 
in the fall people in the vicinity will 
come in and help us out, but they 
don't usually stay very long. I think 
we have two or three now at home 
in this country; and to these charges 
Captain Thomas made against me to 
the Prison Commission about my pol- 
itics, it is all untrue. Not a word 
of it is true, and the voters of Bra- 
zoria county will tell you this at An- 
gelton. He was so sure he knew all 
about my politics. Here is a copy of 
what they have to say about it, and 
Mr. Campbell has the other. (Mr. 
Matthews hands copy to Mr. Tillot- 
son, and reads as follows): 

Brazoria, Texas, May 12-13. 
Hon. O. B. Colquitt, and Board of 
Prison Commissioners — Gentle- 
men: 

We, the undersigned citizens of 
Brazoria County, Texas, wish to say 
that it has been brought to our at- 
tention, that the report is going over 
the country and that it has been re- 
ported to you and the Board of Com- 
missioners, that Mr. H. H. Matthews, 
who is in the service of the Prison 
System, not only voted against you 
but that he used his influence in the 
interest of Judge Ramsey, and that 
this report has been made to you 
and the Commissioners and we de- 
sire to say that this statement is 
based on surmise and not on facts, 
as we know personally the position 
of Mr. Matthews in this campaign, 
and that he as well as ourselves 
supported you at the polls and also 
in the County Convention. 

Very respectfully submitted, 
A. E. Masterson, attorney at law; 
A. E. Delaney, druggist; S. S. Smith, 
druggist; D. B. Jameson, stockman; 
J. P. Deiseke, stockman; N. M. Gib- 
son, ex-sheriff; Glen Hanna, deputy 
sheriff; P. S. Crews, merchant; J. G. 
Patterson, contractor and Justice of 
the peace; W. E. Patterson, con- 
tractor; Neil'Geiseke, agent Magnolia 
Oil Company; G. W. Goel, lumber- 
man; P. Le xcebus, county commis- 



sioner, precinct No. 4; P. S. Phillips, 
bookkeeper; E. W. Rucks, bookkeep- 
er; O. R. Rucks, chairman precinct 
convention; Lee Farrer, stockman 
and banker; F. M. Harvin, mayor, 
City of Angelton; I. B. Thompson, 
assistant cashier, Angleton State 
Bank. . 

Q. — On whose recommendation 
were you appointed? 

A. — Mr. Mills'. 

Q. — Did Captain Mills ask you 
whom you supported for Governor? 

A. — No, sir; he did not. He has 
heard me say, I know. 

Q. — Was that before or after your 
appointment? 

A. — Before and after, too. 

Q. — Before the appointment? 

A. — Long before. 

Q. — Prom your own personal 
knowledge do you know if the men 
are asked about their political opin- 
ion? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever know a man Jo 
be asked about his political opinions? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Were you here in January, 
1911? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know how many of 
the guards were discharged then? 

A. — No, sir; I was not here then. 

Q. — From your information on the 
subject, could you say whether or 
not the most of the guards were let 
out at that time? 

A. — I could not say. I don't think 
they were, though. 

Q. — Were you here during the last 
primary campaign? 

A. — No, sir; I was in Angleton. 

Q. — Did you ever hear any com- 
ment at that time of the activity of 
the man in charge of the Clemens 
farm in the campaign? 

A. — Yes, sir; I heard something 
about Mr. Brooks; the part he taken 
in it. 

Q. — Did they commend or criticise 
Mr. Brooks? 

A. — Some said one thing and some 
another. 

Q. — What I want to ascertain iS 
whether or not it was a subject of 
comment throughout the country 
that the men on the Clemens farm 
were actively taking a part in the 
political campaign? 

A. — No, sir; not that I know of. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — Mr. Matthews, I believe you 
handled convicts under the old law? 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



369 



A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think this 10 cents 
per diem is a good one? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you think the present 
methods of punishment are as ef- 
fective as the old method of whip- 
ping? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you think the present 
method of punishment is as humane? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you think the 10-houf 
labor limit is a good one? 

A. — No, sir; not for plantation 
use. 

Q. — Is there any other feature of 
the new law that meets with your 
approval? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What are they? 

A. — In the way of handling them 
in lots of respects it is better and the 
way of treatment in the hospital 
line, the sick, etc. The cooking is 
a good deal different. 

Q. — You mean the food and cloth- 
ing? 

A. — Yes, sir; the food is better 
than that years ago, and they are 
better taken care of. 

Q. — You think the food and 
clothing better? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

O. — Do you think the quality bet- 
ter? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — The treatment of the convicts 
better? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Then you are in sympathy 
with the spirit and intention of the 
new law? 

A. — Yes, sir; in that respect. 

Q. — But not in the other partic- 
ular? 

A. — No, sir. 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
CLEMENS FARM. 

Testimony by Mr. J. F. Frazier. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — What is your name? 

A. — J. F. Frazier. 

Q. — In what capacity are you 
Identified with the Clemens farm? 

A. — Steward at Camp No. 4. 

Q. — How long have you been 
here? 

A. — Since last August. 

Q. — Is this your first service in 
the penitentiary system? 



A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Where have you been engaged 
before? 

A. — At the House plantation be- 
fore I came here. 

Q. — As steward do you receive the 
freight as it comes in? 

A. — I receive the commissaries 
sent to that camp. 

Q.- — If there was any express pack- 
age sent to the guards or other em- 
ployes of the Clemens farm, would 
I you have knowledge of it? 



A. — Just at the camp down at 



No. 4. 

Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
i liquors being shipped in or brought 
| in to any of the camps? 
J A. — No, sir. 

Q. — From your knowledge would 
i you be able to say no liquor has 
j been brought to Camp No. 4 since 
you have been there? 

A. — No, sir; I have seen none 
since I have been there. 

Q. — Have you ever seen in any 
instances liquor being smuggled in 
to the convicts? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
instances of drinking on or near the 
premises of the guards? 

A.. — No, sir; I have not. 

Q. — Have you ever seen the guards 
or others playing cards or gambling? 

A. — I have seen them playing 
cards for fun. I do myself. 

Q. — The guards play cards? 

A. — We do every night. I played 
last night. 

Q. — Are the convicts allowed to 
swear and abuse the management in 
the building? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you seen any instances 
of punishment of such conduct, for 
swearing or abusing the manage- 
ment? 

A. — Yes, sir; they are punished 
for such conduct. 

Q. — Have you ever heard of the 
convict bookkeeper keeping whisky 
in his office at Camp No. 1? 

A. — No, sir; I have not. 

Q. — Did you ever hear of certain 
employes on the place getting whisky 
from the pool room man at Brazo- 
ria? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you heard the guards 
abusing the convicts? 

A. — No, sir; I have not. 



370 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Do they talk in the presence 
of the convicts how they should be 
disciplined? 

A. — No, sir; not in the convicts' 
hearing. 

Q. — You never heard the guards 
tell the convicts that they wish they 
could use the bat again? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — From your conversation with 
the guards, would you assume the 
majority of them believe the bat is 
the only way to control the convict 
or negro? 

A. — That is my idea. 

Q. — Would you assume that is the 
same way the guards feel about it? 

A. — Yes, sir; they talk it. among 
themselves, but not in the presence 
of the convicts. 

Q. — Do you think the guards are 
sincere in trying to get the best serv- 
ice from the convicts under the pres- 
ent law with its limitation of hours 
of labor?- 

A. — I think they are doing the 
very best they can. 

Q. — Do you think there is any 
spirit of indifference among the 
guards as to whether or not the 
farm is profitable or not? 

A. — No, sir; I do not. 

Q. — You think every man in a 
position of responsibility on the 
Clemens farm is trying to get the 
best results possible? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — Do the convicts talk much 
among themselves about no having 
got their per diem? 

A,. — I hear some of them talk 
about it. 

Q. — Do you think it discourages 
them or makes them sullen about 
it? 

A. — Some of them; yes, sir. 

Q. — How do they talk — as though 
the State is trying to beat them out 
of it? 

A. — They say they would like to 
get it; that it looks like they will 
never get it. 

Q. — Do you think that affects 
them in any material degree of ef- 
ficiency as to the labor of the con- 
victs? 

A. — I could not say how that is. 

Q. — But they do talk about it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You knew Mr. Thomas, did 
you not? 

A. — Yes. sir. 



Q. — Did he ever talk to you about 
the methods of conducting the Clem- 
ens farm? 

A. — He talked so much about 
everything in the world, I don't 
know what he said. 

Q. — Did he ever express to you 
his belief the management was cal- 
culated to prove profitable to the 
farm? 

A. — I heard him say he was a good 
farmer, and could do about as well 
as some of those people down here 
who pretended to know so much 
about it. 

Q. — He was in charge of your 
camp? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — From your conversation with 
him would you state briefly what you 
consider were his reasons for the po- 
sition he took? 

A.— He said so much I could hard- 
ly recall what he did say. 

Q. — Did he feel he had been mis- 
treated? 

A. — Yes, sir; he said he wanted 
to stay at this camp. He did not 
want to go down with those Mexi- 
cans. He wanted to learn about the 
farm work; that he was down there 
and nothing going on but cutting 
wood. 

Q. — Did he seem to think anyone 
was responsible for his change ex- 
cept Captain Mills? 

A. — He talked about Mr. Mat- 
thews, and that he had quite a lot 
to do with it. 

Q. — Did he say through whose in- 
fluence he was appointed when he 
came there? 

A. — I think he said the Commis- 
sioners sent him there. 

Q. — Did he ever talk to you about 
how he came to secure his appoint- 
ment; whether it was for political 
service or not? 

A. — That was about all he talked 
about; was politics. 'He seemed to 
be quite a political man. 

Q. — Did he talk as though he 
earned his appointment by his po- 
litical service? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think he regarded his 
appointment as a political appoint- 
ment? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think he did. 

Q. — He gave you the impression 
lie would not have asked for this ap- 
pointment had it not been for the 
political service he had rendered? 



Penitentiary Investigating Coaiaiittee. 



371 



A. — He said he had spent money 
and worked mighty hard directing 
the campaign. 

Q. — And he thought he was en- 
titled to it? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You can give no other reason 
than those stated for his dissatisfac- 
tion here? 

A. — No, sir; I can not. He got 
along mighty well here until he 
went to the other camp. 

Q. — Did you ever hear any one 
criticise him here? 

A. — Xo, sir. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the in- 
cident of the two Mexicans where 
they refused to come from the field? 

A. — I was at the camp. 

Q. — Who brought them in? 

A. — The dogman. 

Q. — What was his name? 

A. — Freeman Hill. 

Q. — Did Hill make any statement 
to you when he came in? 

A. — He told me the Mexicans 
tried to hit the sergeant. 

Q. — Who was the sergeant? 

A. — Captain Thomas. 

Q. — Was it at Mr. Thomas' request 
that he brought the Mexicans in? 

A. — That was the way I under- 
stood it. 

Q. — Did Thomas make any state- 
ment to you about it? 

A. — Xo, sir. 

Q. — What was done with the two 
Mexicans when they were brought 
in? 

A. — They were put on the chains. 

Q. — How long were they kept in 
the chains? 

A. — A short while. 

Q. — An hour? 

A. — Xo, sir; not an hour, to the 
best of my knowledge. 

Q. — Do you think that was the be- 
ginning of the mutiny among the 
Mexicans? 

A. — They had been trying to make 
trouble ever since they had been 
down there. 

Q. — You think they were getting 
ready for this mutiny before that 
time? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — They had their knives and 
other weapons concealed on them at 
that time? 

A. — Yes, sir; we search the build- 
ing down there quite often, and we 
have got quite a number of kniv • 
out of the building. 

Q. — When did they get the water 
and bread into the building? 



A. — The next morning. When 

; these men went to breakfast they 

brought back bread with them, and 

the water had not been cut off until 

later in the day — after breakfast. 

Q. — At what hour were the Mex- 
icans chained up? 

A. — It was before supper; after 5 
! o'clock, I guess. 

Q. — And it was from the supper 
; table and breakfast table they car- 
ried their supplies in? 

A. — Yes, sir. Of course, they 
could have carried in some before 
that. 

Q. — You believe they would have 
| mutinied anyhow even if these two 
men had not been chained up? 

A. — Yes, sir; it was only a ques- 
tion of time. You could not feed 
them anything in the world that 
them. The clothing did not 
fit them or suit them. 

Q. — They had been complaining 
for some time? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Mr. J. H. Stanley makes the fol- 
lowing statement: I was at the 
building with the Mexicans. I un- 
derstand a little Spanish — enough to 
know what they were talking about, 
and this mutiny was discussed 
among them prior to the chaining up 
of these two Mexicans, and a writ- 
ten agreement had been written and 
circulated by these Mexicans and 
signed, prior to the time of the 
mutiny. 

Mr. L. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
J. H. Stanley: 

Q. — Do you think Mr. Stanley the 
chaining up of these two men was 
fixed upon as a pretext by the men 
lo begin their mutiny? 

A. — Yes, sir; I am sure it was. 



TUESDAY MAY 27, 1913, AT 
CLEMEXS FARM. 

Testimony of J. A. Crews. 

Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — Give your name to the senog- 
rapher. 

A. — J. A. Crews. 

Q. — What position do you hold in 
connection with the penitentiary ? 

A. — Xight duty; circle watch. 

Q. — How lone; have vou been here, 
Mr. Crev. 

A. — I came here the 20th of last 
September. 

Q.— Is that at Camp Xo. 1? 



372 



Report and Findings of 



A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is this the only position you 
have held in connection with the 
Clemens farm? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Your duties bring you in con- 
tact with the guards at Camp No. 1 
frequently ? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you acquainted with the 
guards on the other camps? 
A. — Some of them. 
Q. — If any liquor was brought into 
Camp No. i. would you know it? 

A. — I don't know if I would or not. 
I am on night duty part of the time. 
Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
liquor being smuggled in to the con- 
victs ? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Ever heard of a trusty having 
liquor? 

A: — I heard that one got liquor 
here once; yes, sir. 
Q.— How? 

A. — Found it in a wagon. 
Q._Who told you that? 
A. — I don't remember, and after 
that I heard Mr. Thomas say it. 

Q. — Did you hear who brought the 
liquor on the place? 

A. — I heard it was George Smith 
and Lumpkins. 

Q. — Was that matter investigated 
by the manager of the farm? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do the guards and officers per- 
mit the convicts to gamble while at 
work, or other places? 
A. — Not that I know of. 
Q. — Have you ever heard of the 
bookkeeper trading in overtime of 
the convicts or their per diem? 
A. — The bookkeeper? 
Q. — Yes, sir. 
. A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Does he do that regularly? 
A. — I have seen him at several dif- 
ferent times. 

Q. — What is the most you have 
ever seen him loan to any one con- 
vict? 

A. — Five dollars. 

Q. — Have you any information as 
to where he got the money? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you think, Mr. Crews, that 
he could have money enough of his 
own to supply the wants of these 
convicts ? 

A. — I heard someone say, I. don't 
remember now who, that he got the 
money from home. I don't tell this 
as a fact. 



Q. — What course of income has he 
here on the farm to get any money? 
A. — Nothing that I know of. He 
runs a barber shop. I never thought 
of that awhile ago and he makes a 
good deal of money that way. 

Q. — Do all the guards and officers 
from this camp come here to his 
barber shop? 

A. — Frequently they do. They come 
pretty often from the different 
camps. 

Q. — Is there any swearing among 
the guards, or cursing of the con- 
victs by the guards around your 
camp? 

A. — No, sir; not that I know of. 
Q. — Did you know Mr. Thomas? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did Mr. Thomas ever talk to 
vou about his change from Camp No. 
1 to Camp No. 4? 

A. — He never talked to me, but he 
did to others. He did not have much 
to say to me one way or the other. 
He talked all the time, but he did not 
talk to me. 

Q. — Did you ever hear him say why 
he thought he received his appoint- 
ment? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What did he say about it? 
A. — He said he made stump 
speeches and that he worked for the 
Governor, and .1 forget what the 
amount of money was he paid out of 
his own pocket, and what position he 
was promised. 

Q. — Did he say what position he 
was promised? 

A. — I don't say he did. 
Q. — Did he say who promised him 
anything ? 

A. — No, sir; not that I know of. 
Q. — He gave the impression he 
thought he was entitled to some- 
thing? 

A. — Yes, sir; he afterwards said it 
was only verbal, but that at the next 
election he would have it in black 
and white. 

A. — By whom were you appointed? 
A. — Captain Mills. 
Q. — Did anyone recommend your 
appointment by him? 

A. — No, sir; I have worked for 
Captain Mills before and have known 
him a long time. 

Q. — Have you heard of anyone be- 
ing appointed to a position on this 
farm because of an special influence 
or political service? 
A. — No, sir. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



373 



Q. — Is the present penitentiary 
law subject to general discussion 
among the guards? 

A. — Sometimes they get out and 
talk just like they do at any other 
place, or when any other crowd gets 
together. 

Q. — Is it your impression the 
guards believe the bat should be re- 
stored ? 

A. — I don't know about that. 

Q. — Some think it ought to be? 

A. — I don't know whether they do 
or not. 

Q. — Does the general run of the 
talk seem to indicate that they don't 
believe that the present law is get- 
ting as much service out of the con- 
victs as the old law? 

A. — No, sir; nothing like it. 

Q. — What do you think about the 
restoration of the bat yourself? Do 
you think it ought to be restored? 

A. — I think if it was, it would be 
better. You would not have to use 
it if they knew you could use it. 

Q. — From your observation, do you 
think more punishments have result- 
ed from the abolition of the bat than 
was found necessary when the bat 
could be used? 

A. — Well, in some cases it might. 

Q. — Did you ever know of a mut- 
iny under the old law when the bat 
could be used? 

A. — Well, I don't know that I 
have. 

Q. — Do you think better discipline 
can be maintained in the prison sys- 
tem by the restoration of the bat? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Would you extend that to in- 
clude white convicts as well as black? 

A. — Yes, sir. You would not 
have to use it but very little. The 
whites fear it as much as the blacks 
do — more, if anything. 

By Mr. R. B. Humphrey: 

Q. — Have you heard any of the 
testimony of the other witnesses? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you think the 10 cents per 
diem is a good thing? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you think the ten-hour la- 
bor law is a good one? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you think the present 
method of punishment is as effective 
as the old method? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is there any feature of the 
new law that meets with your ap- 



proval that you can think of at this 
time? 

A. — Well, I don't know that there 
is. 

Q. — You think the old law was 
better, and resulted in better work? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Does the new law result in 
better treatment and better care of 
the convicts in a general way? 

A. — Well, yes, sir; I think it does 
at some places. It would not at all 
places; at some camps, but it does 
not at all the camps. 

By Mr. Brahan: 

Q. — Do you believe they make a 
mistake in raising the guards' sal- 
aries from $18 to $35? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you mink it would be a 
mistake in raising it to $35 or $40? 

A. — No, sir. 

By Mr. Tittle: 

Q. — Do you believe in kind and 
humane treatment of all prisoners : 
Clothe them; doctor them when sick; 
give them medicine when sick; Do 
you believe in that? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you believe they are bet- 
ter treated in that way than hereto- 
fore? 

A. — I think so. I think they are 
clothed better and fed better. I 
said that awhile ago. 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
CLEMENS FARM. 

Testimony of Sid Smith: 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — What is your name? 

A. — Sid Smith. 

Q. — What is your position on the 
Clemens farm? 

A. — Dog man. 

Q. — How long have you been on 
the farm? 

A. — About three months. 

Q. — Is this the first service you 
ever had in the penitentiary system? 

A. — No, sir; I have been in about 
eight years. 

Q. — Have you ever been on the 
Clemens farm before? 

A. — I was here about two months 
last fall; yes, sir. 

Q. — Who appointed you to this po- 
sition? 

A. — The first time I bejieve Cap- 
tain Harrison was in charge here. 

Q. — And the last time? 

A. — Captain Matthews. 



374 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Did anybody ask Mr. Matthews 
to appoint you? 

A. — No, sir; I reckon not. 

Q. — You made your application di- 
rect to him? 

A. — I did not make any applica- 
tion. He asked me to go to work, 
and I know I did not make an appli- 
cation. 

Q. — Do you know Mr. Thomas who 
was Assistant Manager here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How long had you been here 
before he left? 

A. — I had been here about two 
months, or two and one-half months. 

Q. — You knew Mr. Thomas last 
year when he was here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — He was Assistant Manager at 
Camp No. 1 then, was he not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you ever seen any of the 
guards gambling since you have been 
here? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever heiar of any 
gambling for money? 

A. — No, sir; I never did. 

Q. — Do any of the men bring liquor 
on the farm? 

A. — I have not seen any. 

Q. — Do you know whether or not 
it is possible for them to get liquor 
at Brazoria? 

A. — I could not say for them, but 
I can say I never got any there. 

Q. — Is it commonly reported a 
man can get it there? 

A. — I have heard of having them 
up in Angleton; free negroes for 
bootlegging. 

Q. — Have you ever seen any 
guards or employes of the peniten- 
tiary system around those negro 
houses? 

A. — No, sir; I don't go there at 
all. 

Q. — Have you ever heard a guard 
curse the convicts? ^ 

A. — No, sir; not in late years. 

Q. — Did Mr. Thomas talk to you 
about his statement? 

A. — No, sir; he did not have much 
to say to me. 

Q. — Did he ever say anything to 
you about how the Clemens farm was 
conducted? 

A. — He has mentioned Captain 
Matthews to me; one time in par- 
ticular. 

Q. — What did he say? 

A. — The day I came back here he 
wanted me to go to work for him 



and I told him Mr. Matthews had 
spoken about me working up here, 
but if he would make it satisfactory 
to the people here, I would just as 
soon work for him as Captain Mat- 
thews. 

Q. — Before he went away, did he 
talk to you about his grievances as 
to the management? 

A. — No, sir; he never mentioned 
that to me since he was at the No. 
4 camp. 

Q. — You are in charge of the 
dogs? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many attempts at es- 
cape have you had since you have 
been in charge of the dogs? 

A. — We have not had any on the 
immediate No. 1 camp. 

Q. — I mean on the farm. 

A. — Just a day or two after I 
came here three Mexicans ran off, 
and two since then. 

Q. — Did they get away? 

A. — One of the first two and all 
of the last three; five in all. 

Q. — How did they happen to get 
away? 

A. — I was not present except one 
time while I was in charge there, 
and I think he slipped under the 
brush pile. We was heaping up the 
brush on the side we had cleared, 
and I think he was underneath it. 

Q. — Have you good dogs? 

A. — At the No. 4 camp they are 
nothing extra, but I am satisfied 
some of those that left there never 
did leave the grounds. They just 
hid under the brush and hid out. 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
CLEMENS FARM. 

Testimony of A. E. Lee. 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — What is your name? 

A.— A. E. Lee. 

Q. — What is your position on the 
farm? 

A. — Camp guard. 

Q. — How long have you been on 
the Clemens farm? 

A. — Since the 6th day of August, 
1912. 

Q. — By whom were you appointed? 

A. — Captain Mills. 

Q. — Where is your home? 

A. — Waco; if I have any. Gen- 
erally where I hang my hat up. I 
have a sister living in Waco. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



375 



Q. — You have been in active ser- 
vice since you came here ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did anyone ask Captain Mills 
to appoint you? 

A. — Not that I know of. 

Q. — Did you apply to him direct for 
the position? 

A. — I came here with him from 
the House plantation. 

Q. — How long did vou serve up 
there ? 

A. — Six months. 

Q. — Since you have been on the 
Clemens farm, have you heard of 
any of the guards drinking. 

A. — No, sir; I don't mingle with 
them at all. When night comes I go 
to my room. I never leave the place 
only on business. 

Q. — Have you heard of whisky be- 
ing brought to the farm by any of 
the guards ? 

A. — Only through Mr. Thomas' 
statements. 

Q. — Is that the only instance in 
which you heard it stated whisky was 
brought here ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you seen any of the 
guards drinking at any time? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you seen any of the 
guards eambling at any time? 

A. — No, sir; only here in February, 
I think. I don't suppose you would 
deem that gambling. There are sev- 
eral rainy days, and they got in their 
rooms in their quarters and played 
for matches and cigars, and Mr. 
Thomas was the leader in that. That 
was all I have seen since I have been 
on the farm ? 

Q. — How often do you go to Bra- 
zoria ? 

A. — I believe I have only been to 
Brazoria twice since I have been on 
the place, and that was when I was 
going to Houston. 

Q. — Have you ever heard of any 
negro women coming to the farm? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have seen them. 

Q. — Were they convicts' wives com- 
ing to see them ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How long did they remain 
here? 

A. — They came on Saturday or 
Sunday morning and stayed until 
Sunday evening. 

Q. — Have you heard of guards vis- 
iting disorderly houses at Brazoria? 

A. — No, sir; only by statement 
made by Captain Thomas. 



Q. — Did you guard convicts prior 
to -the time the new law went into 
effect ? 

A. — Been here since May 2, in '77, 
when I first entered the service. 

Q. — As a rule do most of the old 
guards who have managed convicts 
while the bat was used, believe that 
it is the best way to control the con- 
victs? 

A. — Yes, sir; the majority of them. 

Q. — What do you think about it? 

A. — I think so myself. 

Q. — Do the guards talk about this 
before the convicts. That is, the bat 
ought to be restored? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have heard it, but 
very seldom. 

Q. — Have you heard any of the 
guards swearing at the convicts? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — I mean cursing them? 

A. — No, sir; I have not heard a 
man curse a convict since I have been 
on the farm. 

Q. — Do the convicts sometimes 
curse the guards ? 

A. — I have heard that they do it. 
One very nearly cursed me Saturday 
evening. He called me a liar four 
times. 

Q. — When they use such language 
to a guard, do they punish them ? 
• A. — Yes, sir; in his way, and in 
the way it is allowed them. 

Q. — What punishment did you give 
that man who called you a liar? 

A. — Put him in chains. 

Q. — How long did you keep him 
there ? 

A. — One hour and thirty minutes. 

Q. — From your experience as a 
guard, do you think there is more 
disobedience among the convicts un- 
der the present system of punish- 
ing them than of the old method ? 

A. — Yes, sir; I have never been in 
the field with them at all in the last 
three years, but in the prison it is 
all the difference in the world. In 
fact, it is useless for men to speak 
to them. He is liable to be insulted 
if he does. They will turn back and 
answer: "Who is you?" and things 
like that. Now, I want to state, I 
have charge of issuing out the shoes 
and clothing. Of course, a man has 
got to use discretion in these things, 
but they are supposed to wear a pair 
of shoes three months, but I look 
at it in different ways. If a negro 
comes to me and he is barefooted, 
and if he has not destroyed them, I 
give him a pair of shoes, if he had 



376 



Report and Findings op 



not worn his old ones two months, 
but if he has destroyed them, I will 
not issue them. 

Mr. Tillotson interrogates Captain 
Mills: 

Q. — Captain Mills, can you state 
what the custom is on the farm rela- 
tive to charging convicts for clothing 
wilfully destroyed by them? 

A. — I was instructed by the Com- 
mission in the event they cut up 
their clothes or shoes, to issue them 
more instead, but charge them so 
much; $1.50 for the shoes, $1.00 for 
the pants and 50 or 75 cents for the 
shirts. It was all outlined what I 
was to charge and in discharging 
these men — I think there were three 
whom we had just awhile prior to 
their being discharged issued new 
shoes and when they were dis- 
charged they had made away with 
their shoes and did not turn 
them in to us, and I charged 
them $1.50 for them, and I made 
a check out for this amount payable 
to the Commission. They hold my 
check for the amount of money col- 
lected from these convicts for these 
shoes. My stubs will cover it and 
the Commissioners will tell you so. 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1913, AT 
CLEMENS FARM. 

Testimony by George Moss: 

By Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — What is your name? 

A. — George Moss. 

Q. — How long have you been on 
the Clemens farm? 

A. — I came here the 16th of No- 
vember, 1912. 

Q. — What position do you hold?. 

A. — r ield guard. 

Q. — Have you been in the service 
of the penitentiary system before? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Where? 

A. — Several different places. Was 
transferred here from the Allen farm. 

Q. — How long have you guarded 
convicts? 

A. — Off and on about thirteen 
years. I have not been regular all 
the time. 

Q. — Did you know Mr. Howard 
Elrod? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How long was he on the place? 

A. — He was here when I came 
here. 



Q. — Did you know him before 
that? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you hear his statement be- 
fore Mr. Campbell when he was 
here? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Mr. Elrod said you drank 
whiskey with him. Is that right? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — How long did Mr. Elrod stay 
here? 

A. — About five months, I suppose, 
after I came here. 

Q. — Did you ever see him drink- 
ing? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever see P. O. Lump- 
kin drinking? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you ever known of any 
gambling going on on the Clemens 
farm since you have been here? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is it common report that some 
of the guards go to Brazoria and 
visit the disorderly negro houses 
there? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — They go there once in a while 
on Sundays? 

A. — Yes, sir; some of them. 

Q. — Have you ever seen any of 
them? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How many times have you 
seen them there? 

A. — Twice, I believe. 

Q. — You saw them twice in those 
houses? 

A. — No, sir; only once. 

Q.- — Were you with them? 

A. — No, sir. I went out there by 
myself, and went down to one of 
those houses and found two or three 
of the boys there, and also Captain 
Thomas. 

Q. — Who did you find there? 

A. — Mr. Crews and George Smith, 
and Mr. Lumpkins was leaving the 
house when i rode up. 

Q. — Did they say anything to you 
at the time? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — But these men were in the 
house? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know whether or not 
guards receive whiskey by express 
or freight from Brazoria? 

A. — If they have, I don't know 
anything about it. 

Q. — Have you ever seen any of 
the trusties with whiskey? 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



377 



A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Have you ever heard any of 
the guards say certain of the trust- 
ies could get whiskey for them? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you think the guards are 
really trying to get all the service 
they can out of the convicts? 

A. — Yes, sir; I do. 

Q. — Do you think most of the 
guards who handle convicts before 
this new law went into effect be- 
lieve the bat is the best method of 
controlling the convicts? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you believe it is? 

A. — Yes, sir; I do. 

Q. — Do you think the experience 
of all the managers of all of the 
farms is that more punishments have 
been found necessary under the pres- 
ent law than when the bat could be 
used? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — Did Mr. Thomas ever talk to 
you about his removal from. Camp 
No. 1, to Camp No. 4? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did he ever talk to you about 
the management of the convicts on 
the farm? 

A. — No, sir; I don't think he did. 
I never had but very little to say 
to him while he was here. 

Q. — Did he ever talk to you about 
politics? 

A. — No, sir; not to me exactly, but 
I have heard him talk to others. 

Q. — What did he seem to think 
was the reason for his appointment 
to the position of Assistant Manager 
of the Clemens farm? 

A. — I never did hear him say. 

Q. — Did he ever ask you to go to 
church with him? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you go? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did any other guards go with 
him? 

A. — I think two or three went some 
Sundays; maybe not. 

Q. — Do you know how often he 
Went himself? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Did he ever make complaint to 
you in his general conversation that 
the guards would not go to church 
with him? 
A. — No, sir. 



TUESDAY, JULY 1, A. D. 1913, AT 
9:20 A. M., IN OFFICE OF SEC- 
RETARY OF STATE SENATE, 
AUSTIN, TEXAS. 

Testimony of W. T. Eldridge. 

By Senator John G. Willacy: 

Now Mr. Eldridge, just confine 
yourself to those things that effect 
the past financial operations of the 
penitentiary system of Texas, and if 
you have any information to give the 
Committee that will be of assistance 
to us we shall be much pleased to 
have it, keeping your remarks with- 
in the perview of the duties of this 
committee in view of the resolution 
passed by the Legislature, under 
which we are acting. 

Q. — Now, I'll ask you to give such 
information or suggestions in your 
own way that you may think will 
be of interest and help the Commit- 
tee. 

A. — I have submitted a written 
document to the Governor. I did 
not wish to take up your time to 
read the document. Will it be neces- 
sary to read the document? 

Governor Mayes states: Each 
member of the Committee has seen 
the document or can do so. 

A. — I will leave it with you. 

Governor Mayes states: I have it. 

Senator Willacy states: I think 
it contains something that ought to 
go to the public, and especially the 
judicial branch of the government. 
The citizens of the State and of the 
United States should be interested 
in the proceedure and business of 
the American Sugar Refining Com- 
pany. I do not know that this docu- 
ment should go in our record. Now 
I would suggest to the Committee 
that we refer this document to the 
Attorney General's Department, if 
all the members of the Committee 
are familiar with its contents. 

Governor Mayes states: There 
may be some other documents and 
papers that may be referred along 
with these. 

.Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — Mr. Eldridge, you referred in 
a statement to the fact that the 
Prison Commission had sold raw 
sugar to the New Orleans Refinery 
at prices which you believed much 
lower than those your company are 
prepared to pay. Have you any in- 
formation as to the quantity of raw 
sugar sold to this company? 



378 



Report and Findings of 



A. — I will say this, I have not the 
means of knowing how much sugar 
was sold to the New Orleans com- 
pany. If I had their accounts sales, 
I could tell the amount. I told 
them that if they would produce 
their account sales, and if I did not 
prove that they had lost money I 
would apologize to them. 

Q. — How much money do you 
claim they lost? 

A. — I do not know. I do not 
know the quantity of raw sugar they 
sold to the New Orleans company. 
But I will make this statement, that 
it is not possible for them to sell 
sugar to the New Orleans company at 
less than a net loss of twenty-six or 
twenty-seven cents per hundred loss. 
You can work from the account 
sales. The sugar market is just like 
the cotton market. It changes. It 
is just like middling cotton, that is 
for 96 test sugar. That is the way 
you have to arrive at it. Get the 
quotation at a given date on 96 test 
sugar. 

Senator Willacy: 

Q. — Have you any idea, Mr. El- 
dridge — can you tell this Commit- 
tee approximately the amount of raw 
sugar moved by the State and sold 
to the New Orleans company? 

A. — No, sir; I don't know the 
amount. 

Q. — You are manager of the Im- 
perial Sugar Refinery Company, are 
you not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — You do not own it, do you? 

A. — Just manager. 

Q. — You operate a refinery then? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Were you prepared to pur- 
chase the raw sugar from the peni- 
tentiary system of Texas for the last 
few years? 

A. — Yes, sir; and tried to do so. 

Q. — Did you purchase any of it. 

A. — No, sir; not under this ad- 
ministration. I did under the 
Campbell administration. 

Q. — When were your last pur- 
chases made? 

A. — In 1910. 

Q. — Were the prices paid agreea- 
ble to the representatives of the 
State as well as youreslf? 

A. — It was; it was more than they 
could receive in the New Orleans 
market. 

Q. — You are familiar with the 
prices of raw sugar? 



A. — I have a communication every 
change in the market. 

Q. — What do you estimate the ad- 
vantage in selling the raw sugar to 
your company? 

A. — A saving in freight, sampling, 
testing, loss from shrinkage, broker- 
age and weight. There are several 
items of ex'pense, including freight 
and other loss. 

Q. — Were you prepared to pay to 
the Texas Sue-ar Mills a price equal 
to the New Orleans prices for its raw 
sugar ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have they sold to you on that 
basis ? 

A.— Not since 1911. 

Q. — If this sugar had been sold to 
your refinery in Texas would the 
State have netted as much or more 
than as much as it did to ship it? 

A. — I have made this challenge to 
Mr. Tittle, he sold to the New Or- 
leans Company which was obliged to 
pay the freight charges, brokerage, 
weighing charges, testing charges, 
and other charges, and that if shipped 
to Sugar Land, a saving of consider- 
able would have been made, the 
freight to Sugar Land would have 
been seven cents instead of twenty- 
five, as it was to New Orleans7 It 
would have been three cents from 
Clemens farm. There would have 
been a profit representing the differ- 
ence in freight, together with the 
amount of brokerage, testing 
charges, weighing charges and other 
charges that would have been made. 

Q. — Do you keep informed as to 
the sugar market? 

A. — I have a daily communication 
of the New York or New Orleans 
market changes. 

Q. — In your opinion, how much 
greater price could the Texas peni- 
tentiary system have received by sell- 
ing to you? 

A. — It depends on the amount and 
distance it is shipped. In 1907, in 
order to get money we had to ship 
our sugar and I figure that there is 
at least 35 cents a hundred differ- 
ence, then the weights and trimmings 
are to be accounted for, in other 
words figure the difference in the 
expenses. 

Q. — Have you been in a position 
to handle this raw sugar? 

A. — We have been able to buy 
every pound they produced so far 
as I am advised since they have been 
making 96 test sugar. We could have 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



379 



used every pound of 96 test sugar 
made there. We have used the 
Brownsville people's sugar. There is 
25 cents difference that the Browns- 
ville people get advantage of. The 
rate from Brownsville to our mill 
is nineteen cents. The shrinkage on 
raw sugar is considerable. 

Q. — Are you prepared to receive 
the sugar from the Imperial farm? 
A. — I am. 

Q. — Are you prepared to receive 
and buy the raw sugar from the pen- 
itentiary sugar mills? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you offered to buy it? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Can you state to the commit- 
tee why you could not buy this 
sugar ? 

A. — I tried to get Mr. Tittle to 
say what would buy it. He wanted 
me to make him a bid, which I de- 
clined to do because my own judg- 
ment dictated to me that it would do 
no good to make a price. I tried to 
get him to make a price. I made no 
special price, though. I told him to 
get the best price possible for him 
to get and then tell me what he had 
been offered and I would mset it. 

Q. — Do you wish the committee to 
understand that you were willing at 
all times to pay New Orleans prices 
for sugar ? 

A. — I offered to take their sugar 
on a basis of the New Orleans mar- 
ket. 

Q. — You offered to pay them that 
price ? 

A. — Now, I just want to state that 
in the year 1908, I was in the market 
for sugar, we were running the mill 
and during these several years it has 
been necessary for us to buy foreign 
sugar in order to keep the refinery 
going, and we have at various times, 
during these years purchased sugar 
in Cuba, imported it and brought it 
by the New Orleans company and by 
the State plant and brought it 
to our plant. The year 1909 that 
was the first year that I was con- 
nected with the Cunningham prop- 
erty. I realized that the refinery 
could not be a success on account of 
the small production of domestic 
sugar unless we used foreign 
sugar. I feel that it was absolutely 
necessary to furnish the refinery 
with foreign sugar. In 1911, I got 
domestic susrar, 155,763 pounds, Cu- 
ban sugar, 22,155,822 pounds. I want 
you gentlemen to think of this, that ' 



we had to bring this Cuban sugar 
right by the New Orleans refinery. 
In 1912, domestic sugar, 6,083,667 
pounds; Cuban sugar, 48,541,946 
pounds, making a total of 54,625,613 
pounds; in 1913 domestic sugar mar- 
keted to date, 3,875,418; Cuban sugar, 
36,268,687 pounds, making a total to 
date, Saturday night, 40,144,105 
pounds. On hand, Cuban sugar, not 
marketed, 8,059,195 pounds; other 
sugar on hand 9,900,000 pounds, 
making a total of 58,103,300 pounds. 
If we have not by this means saved 
the people of Texas a half million of 
dollars, we won't save them a cent. 

Q. — Are you in competition with 
the American Sugar Refinery Com- 
pany? 

A. — These letters show that we are 
in competition with them. If there 
is a method known to man that they 
have not resorted to to drive us out 
since 1902, I fail to know what it is, 
up to June, 1913, I have furnished 
you the written records. These will 
furnish you the record. I will read 
a letter that will give you some idea 
of this matter, you will get some 
idea there, of the magnitude of our 
business, our local banker makes me 
this statement (reads letter), that in 
answer to my inquiry, he begs to ad- 
vise that the total clearances from 
June 1, 1912, to June 1, 1913, were 
almost double those of a like period 
previous to that time. Gentlemen, 
we have not a claim or suit against a 
living man, except the penitentiary 
system of the State, and there is not 
a man got a claim against us, except 
the penitentiary system of Texas. I 
just ask you, gentlemen, to investi- 
gate the correspondence between us 
submitted to you. If there is any 
other information or anything that 
you gentlemen wish, I will be glad 
to furnish you with it. I think that 
is about all that I have to say. I 
have samples of our sugar and of the 
sugar of the New Orleans plant. You 
can look at them for yourselves. You 
can get this sugar from any mer- 
chant who does business with the 
American Sugar Refinery Company. 
With the two before you you are 
able to make a better comparison. 
You can see is as you please, but it 
is hard for an independent concern 
to exist, for the refinery in Texas. 
This concern, with its enormous capi- 
tal, and its surplus, and its methods 
of doing business, and the further 
fact that it puts on the market an in- 



380 



Report and Findings of 



ferior grade of goods, makes it hard 
to get at. We have had men over 
the state looking after their methods. 
At one time they were selling sugar 
at much less than the market price 
and stated that they wanted to buy 
the Cunningham Refinery out of 
business. 

Q. — Is there anything else, Colonel? 

A. — I believe that is all. I would 
like to call the Governor's attention 
to some letters that I gave the Com- 
mittee some time ago about the cot- 
ton raising down there. I have given 
the Governor here a copy of all that 
correspondence. 

Lieutenant Governor Mayes states: 
I have that correspondence and will 
submit it to the Committee. 

Colonel W. T. Eldridge: I wish 
to state that I offered more money 
for the picking of cotton than negro 
tenants were paying there. Their 
men went five or six miles further 
to work. We stood there and offered 
them more money to pick our cotton 
than they were getting and going 
this distance. 

Governor Mayes states: Let me 
see that bill you have. 

A. — I got that from a friend and 
would like to return it. I would 
not care to leave it with the Com- 
mittee, but you can get one from 
one of their customers. 

Q. — As a matter of fact is there 
any Texas granulated sugar sold to 
the American Sugar Refinery Com- 
pany? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Does the American Sugar Re- 
finery Company sell sugar and at- 
tempt to leave the impression that 
it was manufactured by your com- 
pany? 

A. — They try to leave that im- 
pression by their inferior grade. I 
wish to say to this Committee that 
we have had men working looking 
after numerous complaints. Men 
say we would like to have your 
sugar, but find it of an inferior 
grade, and when we have examined 
it, I can certify that it never saw 
Texas before it was shipped here. 

Q. — Was this sugar here drawn 
from the Texas granulated? 

A. — That sugar there is. If there 
is any expert on sugars here, he can 
tell you the difference. (Sugars are 
examined and compared.) Here is 
a man that can qualify as an expert. 
He writes a letter to our superin- 
tendent (reads letter) and states 



that he has examined the sugar 
turned out by the Texas refinery, 
and says that it is good and that he 
should think there would be no 
trouble in finding a ready market. 
That is an excellent grade. There is 
not a better sugar man in the United 
States than this man. 

Q. — This sugar sold by the Amer- 
ican Sugar Refinery Company would 
have a tendency to prejudice the 
minds of people against the Texas 
sugar, would it not? 

A. — Yes, sir. We have spent sev- 
eral hundred dollars this year in 
Texas trying to locate these fraudu- 
lent sales. 

Q. — What is the effect jDf ship- 
ping Texas raw sugar to the Amer- 
ican Refinery Company, does it give 
it the advantage over the Texas re- 
finery? 

A. — It gives it an advantage, and 
besides the Texas refinery must im- 
port sugar. It has several effects, 
when they get their sugars there on 
the New Orleans market they get 
it for 1-4 cent less than they can 
buy it and then the freight must be 
taken into consideration. If they 
exhaust the supply they must import 
their sugars from Cuba, Porto Rico 
and other foreign countries, and be- 
sides it reflects on our little refinery 
down here in Texas. They have got 
to go on the New York market and 
buy sugar from foreign countries. 
They would have to pay more money 
than they are paying for raw sugar. 
There is many pounds of sugar 
shipped from there that they have 
got less than we would give for it. 
I do not know why they shipped it, 
unless they wanted it sent away 
from us. 

Q. — How many pounds, about how 
many, have been shipped out of the 
State? 

A. — I do not know, unless I could 
see the account sales. 

Q. — Have they been losing money 
by shipping this sugar? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I understand, then, that in 
view of the prices received by the 
Commission for the penitentiary raw 
sugar, that it was approximately 25 
cents less than could have been re- 
ceived if sold to you? 

A. — I am basing that on Sugar 
Land rates and weights. Unless 
they are better sugar men than I 
am, they can not fail but to see the 
loss of somewhere near 35 cents. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



381 



Q. — Then we are to understand, 
Colonel Eldridge, that you were 
ready at all times to purchase the 
raw sugar from the Penitentiary 
Commissioners? 

A. — Have stood ready at all times 
and stand ready today and have since 
1909 to purchase it all. 

Q. — You are not able to tell the 
Committee the amount of raw sugar 
purchased and shipped to the Amer- 
ican Sugar Refinery Company? 

A. — No, sir. 

Senator Willacy remarked: I think 
the Chairman should request the 
Prison Commission to get the amount 
of raw sugar purchased by the Amer- 
ican Sugar Refinery Company from 
them including the year 1911. 

Q. — Is there any other reasons you 
can suggest why the Prison Commis- 
sion would not entertain a proposi- 
tion to sell you their raw sugar? 

A. — I suppose it was not being 
willing to do business with Eldridge. 

Q. — This sugar refinery is not your 
individual property is it? 

A. — No, sir. I am jU)St simply 
manager, that's all. Manager of it. 

Senator Willacy makes statement: 
Mr. Eldridge is present and has pre- 
sented to us the condition of the 
competition between the American 
Sugar Refinery Company and the 
Texas Company, he has some letters 
that have been written, and has giv- 
en us copies of letters to bear out 
his contentions that the American 
Sugar Refinery Company are using 
certain methods in the conduct of 
their business, shipping into the mar- 
ket an inferior grade of sugar. I 
think we should submit these mat- 
ters to the Attorney General of the 
State, together with these samples. 

Colonel Eldridge makes statement: 
These samples I have were taken 
from 100-pound sacks. I suggest 
that you draw samples for yourself 
in order that you may see for your- 
self. I took the sacks promiscu- 
ously. 

Senator Willacy states: I move 
that these matters be so referred 
to the Attorney Generals Depart- 
ment, together with a copy of Mr. 
Eldridge's testimony. Motion car- 
ried and copy together with commun- 
ications, etc., so referred. 



TUESDAY, JULY 1, A. D. 1913, 
AUSTIN, TEXAS. 

Testimony of Ben H. Cabell: 

Mr. Eldridge states: I want to 
make an additional statement be- 
fore the Committee goes further: So 
far as my observation goes and my 
knowledge in the sugar world all 
sugar is shipped with bill of lading 
attached. The American Sugar Re- 
finery Company, with its ninety mil- 
lions of dollars capital and its sur- 
plus, ships its sugar with bill of lad- 
ing attached. I just wanted to make 
that further statement. 

Interrogated by Senator Willacy: 

Q. — Mr. -Cabell, since we were last 
with you in Huntsville, the Commit- 
tee has been over the various 
branches of the penitentiary system, 
including its several manufacturing 
establishments, its farms and various 
industries, and some things have 
come up with which you no doubt 
are familiar and no doubt you have 
some suggestions to make with ref- 
erence to some or all of them. The 
question of handling raw sugar by 
the department is before us at this 
time. I would like for you to state 
to the Committee the reason of the 
Penitentiary Commission for hand- 
ling the raw sugar in marketing it 
as it was handled, indicating wheth- 
er the New Orleans market offered 
a better advantage for the market 
of the sugar, or what reason you 
have for the handling of the raw 
sugar as it was handled. We would 
be glad if you will just state why 
these sugars were sold in that way 
and if the results to the State were 
better for the State than to have sold 
to the Texas Refinery instead of the 
New Orleans Company? 

A. — Well, I have heard Mr. Eld- 
ridge's statement here and individ- 
ually and I am sure I feel that the 
Commission don't wish to do a Texas 
enterprise an injustice and I think the 
conditions were brought about 
through the fault of Mr. Eldridge 
instead of the fault of the Commis- 
sion. You know the Commission is 
departmental, which I think is a mis- 
take. The buying and selling of sup- 
plies and materials is transacted 
through the Finance Department. Mr. 
Tittle has charge of the Finance De- 
partment, he was the one to take up 
the question of selling the sugar 
raised by the penitentiary system 



382 



Report and Findings of 



and the correspondence on that ques- 
tion. The report of the Finance 
Commission was that he had asked 
Mr. Eldridge to submit a bid for 
the sugar and that Mr. Eldridge had 
refused to do so, and said that he 
(wanted the Finance Commissioner to 
tell him what offer he had and that 
he would guarantee him to give just 
as good prices as he could get. Mr. 
Tittle said that ifTwas unfair and he 
declined to get bids and give Mr. 
Eldridge advantage of it. Now, I 
think that Mr. Tittle felt that if he 
obtained prices from the other people 
and gave them then to Mr. Eldridge 
for him to speculate on, it would in 
the future result disastrously. Then 
the American Sugar Refinery in New 
Orleans would decline to bid on the 
sugar and we would be put abso- 
lutely at the mercy of the refinery 
here. That was the reason in refer- 
ence to that matter as it came to me. 
Personally I have been always trying 
to do everything to promote private 
enterprises. The matter was re- 
ferred to the Finance Commissioner 
and he had the matter in charge, 
that is the way it was disposed of. 
Evidently it was brought about by no 
other reason than what I have stated. 
I don't think the Commission has any 
intention of injury to that enter- 
prise. I don't think that ought to 
prejudice the minds about the Com- 
mission. I know he had no idea of 
hurting Mr. Eldridge at all. That is 
my statement in reference to this 
sugar transaction. They had talked 
the matter over the telephone and 
that is the way Mr. Eldridge wanted 
the sugar disposed of. Mr. Tittle had 
told him over the phone that he 
wanted to dispose of his sugar. 

Q. — The Committee is to under- 
stand this then, Mr. Cabell, that the 
Commission thought it was not good 
business policy to subject the sale 
of this raw sugar to any one custom- 
er? 

A. — That was the policy and it 
would be dangerous and would be 
detrimental. 

Q. — Was there more than one pur- 
chaser in New Orleans for the su- 
gar? 

A. — I don't know whether -there 
was or not. 

Q. — The Commission's records 
show your tonnage of sugar pro- 
duced ? 

A. — Yes, sir; and all correspond- 
ence with Mr. Eldridge. 



Q. — This statement can be had, 
can't it? 

A. — Yes, sir; if you haven't got it. 
They will be very readily obtained. 

Q. — You can make up this state- 
ment? 

A. — That can be very readily. 

Q. — Before requesting you to enter 
into a general statement, I wish to 
call up a subject in regard to the 
Huntsville penitentiary and that is 
what effect does it have upon the 
prison operations to operate on a 
credit basis, where a mere promise 
to pay is made, or to purchase with 
cash or state warrants, as to the ad- 
ditional cost, if any, and whether 
there is a difference in purchasing on 
credit instead of cash system and 
what saving could be had, what dif- 
ference, if any, if the finances of 
the penitentiary system were carried 
in the State Treasury that is if the 
business of the State penitentiary 
was carried in the State Treasury 
just as any other State institution, 
i what effect would it have as to a 
I saving and getting competition ,in 
the matter of making your pur- 
chases. And further taking into 
view the question as to whether the 
penitentiary system is authorized to 
create debts and give notes of the 
system in payment of these debts 
and the uncertainty as to whether 
the Legislature can make appropria- 
tion to cover these accounts, not 
knowing whether they might receive 
payment or not this session of the 
Legislature or the following one in 
those prices of such supplies as are 
necessary for the system. Now, if 
the prison system would pay for 
these supplies as other State institu- 
tions pay for their supplies by war- 
rants on the State Treasury, know- 
ing that these warrants would be paid 
just as soon as the money was re- 
ceived in the State Treasury, I would 
like for you to state to the commit- 
tee what your opinion is now as to 
the amount of loss occasioned by 
buying supplies on this credit plan 
over the plan of paying cash or the 
issue of warrants for them? 

A. — Well, it is a matter of business, 
this is a busines proposition. Any 
merchant would prefer to have the 
cash and could make a better price 
if he could get it. I know that there 
would be some difference. I can best 
illustrate this. We made a contract 
for beef for the Huntsville prison at 
what we thought and considered a 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



383 



very low bid. That was on a cash 
basis. Now, these men who made 
the contract are being paid in State 
warrants. Now they have to discount 
the State warrants, and they are 
coming to us and saying that they 
cannot furnish the beef at the con- 
tract price and discount their war- 
rants. They now want to throw up 
their contract. We have asked that 
the State stand this discount. We 
claim we get this cheaper now than 
we could possibly get it. You must 
bear in mind that we have had no 
money for over three years, except 
the appropriations. We started out 
expecting to meet our bills next fall. 
We began to transact our business on 
prison notes. We have never found 
but few banks that would take these 
notes. We have bought goods, sup- 
plies and materials upon these notes. 
By investigating, you will find that 
these notes were made for thirty, 
sixty and ninety days. When these 
notes became due, we paid compound 
interest on them. In my opinion, it 
will figure ten to fifteen per cent in- 
terest, at least. Some of these notes 
were given for machinery, some for 
supplies, on a cash basis. We paid 
them in prison notes. Some of them 
were with interest added and then 
paid with interest on them. Some- 
times these notes became due and we 
renew them and add the interest. 

Q. — How much are these State 
warrants discounted? 

A. — I have heard all the way from 
two to five per cent discount. I have 
heard of none higher than five per 
cent. 

Q. — Then when you purchase on 
this basis, and they know they are 
to discount from two to five per cent, 
how does that compare with the 
prices when you have the cash to pay 
for the goods? 

A. — I am not prepared to answer 
that. The best way would be to com- 
pare the cost of machinery, goods, 
etc. I believe that would be the best 
way. 

Q. — Are you in a position to ap- 
proximate to the committee about 
what per cent increases in the 
charges for supplies under the note 
system? 

A. — I am not prepared to say. 

Q. — You have got the prices that 
have been paid under both condi- 
tions? 

A. — Yes, but there are many ways 
of figuring it. Conditions govern. 



Q. — When people buy on an un- 
certain credit, is it not altogether 
possible to get a quality of goods 
that would not be first-class? 

A. — I think so. 

Q. — A merchant is going to do the 
very best he can in making his prices. 
Now, he would not be able to make 
the prices to you if he knew that he 
would have to discount his warrant 
that he would if he could get cash? 

A. — I think not. If we had .the 
money we could get better prices. 

Q. — About what amount are the an- 
nual purchases, the amount of the 
various transactions ? 

A. — I would suppose a million and 
a half or two million dollars. I may 
miss that some. 

Q. — We find upon our investiga- 
tion on several farms of the State 
that you have no adequate system of 
checking supplies wtih reference to 
quality, that they check up as to 
uqantity. I don't remember any 
place where they check them up as 
to quality. Those from whom you 
purchase might send goods of an in- 
ferior quality, something with a less 
nrice. Do you not think there can 
be put in a system of checking 
whereby the quality could be checked 
as well as the quantity? 

A. — I don't think there is any 
doubt about that. I think a com- 
plete check should be made of every- 
thing. 

Q. — Don't you think under the 
present system there is an opening 
for a very considerable loss to the 
State? In other words, that we are 
paying one price for a certain kind 
of goods and getting an inferior 
kind ? 

A. — Yes; we often have to take 
goods that other parties will not take. 

Q. — You think, then, that there is 
a possibility of the substitution of an 
inferior kind of goods and that the 
system is not adequate? 

A. — I don't think our checking sys- 
tem is complete and never have 
thought so. One kind of flour could 
be received when another kind was 
bought. I would not say that this is 
the case, however. 

Q. — That was what we wanted a 
brief statement of the conditions up 
to the present time. 

Interrogated by Mr. Tillotson : 

Q. — I'll ask you if it occurs to you 
that we have improved the conditions 
there, accomplished anything? 



384 



Report and Findings of 



A. — In reference to that matter I 
will state that this is a large institu- 
tion, and give as an instance our reg- 
ular running expenses for materials, 
including materials for the farms, 
bacon, flour and other necessary sup- 
plies all taken together will amount 
to about two millions of dollars. I 
wanted you to understand that I am 
figuring the basis on four thousand 
men, however. It costs about eighty- 
five thousand per month. That just 
includes materials and supplies and 
some of the improvements, but not 
all of them. 

Senator Willacy: 

Q. — If there is any other lines of 
investigation that we have over- 
looked or matters that you now re- 
call, Mr. Cabell, we would be glad 
that you would call our attention to 
them. 

A. — I was not with you when you 
left Houston. I can only judge the 
character of the testimony taken by 
the newspaper statements, some of 
which I do not agree with. 

Q. — Some question has been 
raised about the manufactured arti- 
cles with reference to those things 
made by the prisoners themselves, 
such as clothes, shoes, etc., how do 
they compare with other articles 
made by free labor? 

A. — I want you to see some of 
those articles. I have had a lot 
of them shipped here for the Com- 
mittee to inspect. They are down 
in the purchasing agent's office. I 
had them sent here that you might 
examine them and have a definite 
opinion with reference to them. 

Governor Mayes makes statement: 
I have a communication from the 
manager of the shoe department in 
regard to the prices. 

Mr. Cabell states: I stated that 
I would give Mr. Tillotson there, at 
his request, what it would take to 
carry on the work at the peniten- 
tiary, more especially at Huntsville, 
to increase the capacity there. Now, 
there is the furniture factory, we 
employ forty to forty-five men, we 
would not have to employ any more 
superintendents or foremen. Addi- 
tional room would be very much to 
our advantage in this work. There 
could be different articles of furni- 
ture manufactured which could be 
made from the waste which is now 
a loss, such as chairs and things in 
that line. It has been suggested that 
we manufacture iron beds. The in- 



stallation of this equipment would 
furnish employment to twenty-five 
additional men. In the shoe shop 
we could double the amount of men 
at a very nominal cost, not to ex- 
ceed $2200. 

Q. — What is your judgment as to 
the practicability of adding these de- 
partments? 

A. — In my judgment the recom- 
mendations are good ones and prac- 
tical. I think that under the present 
conditions and needs that we have 
neither the time nor the money to 
put up a proper factory, but we have 
got to maintain these men we have 
at all times, and with a larger fac- 
tory special articles could be made 
that we know would meet a ready 
market. It could be marketed right 
there at our own and other State in- 
stitutions. 

Senator Willacy interrogates: 

Q. — Is there a special line of fur- 
niture that would find a ready mar- 
ket? 

A. — These men who have made 
investigations say so. Now, we fig- 
ure on tables, chairs and benches; 
we figure that it is best to work a 
certain line of articles which would 
save us so much, that is, the ma- 
terial which can not be used in one 
article can be utilized in another. 

Mr. Tillotson interrogates Mr. 
Cabell: 

Q. — Now, you have heard the 
statement made here about the shoe 
factory; what about it, Mr. Cabell? 

A. — I don't think there is any 
question that twenty men could dou- 
ble the output. We figure that by 
doing this enlarging that we can 
not only make a showing, but a sat- 
isfactory one. 

Q. — What, in your opinion, should 
be done? 

A. — Placing in additional machin- 
ery. 

Q. — Mr. Cabell, the penitentiary 
system is operated on the depart- 
mental system plan, is it not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you not believe that a 
great number of articles could be 
made there for the various other 
State institutions? 

A. — Yes, sir; these articles could 
be made with convict labor. It de- 
pends largely on the results of the 
investigations that are made. 

Q. — Then in your department you 
have nothing to do with any of the 
sugar mills? 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



385 



A. — No, sir; I would say that Mr. 
Brahan had charge of that depart- 
ment. 

Q. — What is your opinion about 
the sugar mills? 

A. — From my observation, I have 
concluded that they will dispense 
with them all sooner or later. That 
is my opinion on that. I regard 
those sugar mills as incumbrances. 
We can only grind the sugar that 
is raised on our farms there. Our 
mill at the Harlem place is not big 
enough to grind the sugars on the 
Ramsey farm, and to get it we have 
to ship it over several lines of rail- 
way. I think the sugar mills and 
sugar land 'will help to bust the 
State of Texas. 

Q. — Don't you take into consider- 
ation the prospect of the cane to be 
grown on the land by the State? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — These repairs, it seems like a 
white elephant; the record says $72,- 
000 for repairs, and I understand 
it run up to $100,000, all this to 
grind the crop, which amounted to 
9000 tons of cane. That shows a 
dead loss? 

A. — I would have made a vigor- 
out protest if I had known how 
short the cane crop was going to be. 

Q. — Is it not a fact that the con- 
ditions would not have justified an 
expenditure of that money, no mat- 
ter how much cane the State had 
grown? 

A. — As it has turned out, it shows 
bad judgment. There is no question 
about that. Those who are supposed 
to know made the recommendation 
for this purchase and we made the 
purchase. 

Q. — Are you familiar with the 
short line of railroad down there? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — If the State owned that rail- 
road, in what way would that af- 
fect our operations on the Clemens 
farm? 

A. Tbat would depend upon what 
connections were made. My idea is 
that the railroad running from Bra- 
zoria to that farm is a benefit to the 
farm. My idea was to build a net- 
work of roads around through that 
farm. I think the State should be 
very careful in selling her interest 
in that railroad unless she knew she 
was protected in her rights. 

Q. — How many acres are there? 

A. — 8212 in the Clemens farm. 



Q. — Even, considering that it was 
all under cultivation, do you know 
any way that 8000 acres would jus- 
tify a network of railroad? 

A. — I think so, there. I claim that 
by the net-work you bring your prod- 
ucts where they are more easily han- 
dled and it is certainly a great sav- 
ing. I believe in having roads lead- 
ing around there. 

Q.- 1 — Even if the roads were sold, 
that would not prohibit the State 
from using them? 

A. — No, it would not. In my 
j opinion you have these men on hand 
and you have got to take care of 
them. I think a sufficient number 
j of them ought to work on the farms 
1 and some in the walls. Some have 
I seen fit to criticise our lack of suc- 
cess and have done us an injury. I 
; think the system is entitled to a 
j great deal more credit than it gets. 
, I know the discipline has not been 
, as bad as they have said it was. I 
! don't think the work of the convict 
has been as bad as they have said. 
Some of the men having them in 
charge criticise them. I think we 
have a great many men in our em- 
ploy that are not in sympathy with 
the new law. I think there are many 
men who have overlooked lots of 
things about convicts doing their 
work. I believe if every weapon 
was properly used we would not 
hear half so much about the bat 
being returned. 

Q. — What do you mean by sym- 
pathy for the new law? Does it go 
so far as that they do not try to see 
that it is enforced? Or that the new 
law is not broken? 

A. — I think there is a great many 
men that started in without that 
proper regard and intention to see 
that the new law was fully enforced 
and made a success. I feel like they 
look upon this reform like many 
other reforms, with a fear that it 
will not be a success. 

Q. — That's where lack of sympa- 
thy for the new law comes in? 

A. — I think that is part of it. You 
may examine the record from 1910 
bark to 1890 and it shows as to 
what you would call mutinies, that 
there were more mutinies in 1911 
when we had the strap than in 1912 
when it was abolished. 

Q. — How about 1913? 

A. — There has been about as many 
in 1913 as in 1912. More in 1910 
and 1911 than in 1913. I can not 



386 



Report and Findings of 



say that they have no trouble. I have 
gone to investigate some of their 
disturbances, but I do not call them 
all mutinies. These mutinies are 
principally among the white men, 
the lower classes of the white men; 
we seldom have trouble with the 
negroes along this line. We had a 
few men in the Huntsville peniten- 
tiary at one time that went on a 
mutiny. These start on the farms 
in the penitentary and the walls. 
They are white men of a lower class 
and the trouble has been with them 
instead of the negro. Judging from 
the report, I don't think the dis- 
cipline is as bad as some would say. 

Q. — Can you suggest something 
that can be done for those convicts 
under 21 years of age? 

A. — There are a little over 1300 
white convicts in all. 

Interrogated by Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — What kind of work and grade 
of work would you suggest for boys 
under the age of 21 years? 

A. — Well, the idea would be, the 
majority of those young men un- 
der twenty-one are there for a short 
time and the idea would be to have 
them engaged in some work for the 
short time that they are there that 
would best suit them when released. 
You see they are not there long 
enough to learn a trade and we have 
to let them do whatever they can. 
The machine shops are run in vari- 
ous departments largely, there is lots 
of work in the machine shops that 
the young men could learn, but by 
the time they have learned it their 
time would be out. The greatest 
number of the young men that we 
get now are coming from the cities 
and the greatest number of them are 
not physically strong and the great- 
est number of them for two years, 
and with good behavior they get out 
in a year and ten months. Now we 
can work some of these men in the 
furniture factory, and a number can 
work in the wagon factory. In the 
electrical department, the wagon 
shop, machine shop, we are working 
quite a number of men. 

Q.— Do you believe the white con- 
victs should be employed in manu- 
facturing establishments? 

A. — I do; yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you think Texas can suc- 
ceed with her prisoners in this way? 

A. — Yes, sir. I don't think there 
is a State in the Union that can do 
as well as Texas in this line. The 



larger per cent, of our prisoners are 
negroes and Mexicans. These ought 
all to go to the farm; I believe that 
is the proper place for them. I 
think the old, short term men should 
work on the farms and the long 
term men should work in the walls. 
The long term men have the oppor- 
tunity of learning a trade and then 
they become useful men in the shops 
and factories. 

Senator Willacy remarked: You 
can not make skilled mechanics 
out of these boys in twelve 
or fourteen months. If worked on 
the farms you turn them loose and 
they then drift back to the cities and 
it is not long before they are back 
again in the penitentiary unless you 
teach them something. They get out 
and can't make a living and get to 
stealing and get back. If you teach 
them something of a trade then they 
would not come back. You look at 
the way New York, Massachusetts, 
and other States are solving this 
problem and you must come to the 
conclusion that there is no excuse for 
a great State like ours not solving 
it. There have been mistakes made, 
there have been many things done 
that might not have been done. I 
don't blame the officials. I think one 
thing is that we have been without 
money to make the necessary 
changes, and I think we can dis- 
tribute these mistakes around. 

Mr. Tillotson remarked: I have 
always believed that the State should 
utilize everything she raised to be 
made into an article for the use of 
its State institutions, and their de- 
partments. 

A. — I think you should have a 
cotton mill, if only sufficient to make 
clothes for your various institutions. 
I think the farms should have silos 
instead of pushing their products out 
on the market; the penitentiary sys- 
tem should be so planned out that 
the various departments could be of 
mutual assistance. 

Interrogated by Senator Willacy: 

Q. — Mr. Cabell, you have had an 
opportunity to state what you thought 
of the young men under twenty-one 
years of age. Don't you think, tak- 
ing into consideration the future of 
the boy, the effect of association with 
hardened criminals in the peniten- 
tiary and his general surroundings, 
don't you think it would be a good 
thing to establish an Industrial Train- 
ing School and give them oppor* 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



387 



tunity to learn a trade while they 
are there? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Thev come from the city don't 
they? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Take a white boy, if we had 
an adequate Industrial Training 
School, where the general energies 
could be utilized and trained, so that 
they could get employment when they 
get out, don't you think the State 
could afford to build and maintain 
such a department as that, taking 
into consideration what Texas would 
get back? 

A. — I think that should have been 
done before they get to the peni- 
tentiary. But I believe, coming 
down to the practical idea of re- 
form, is to prepare the youth of the 
land. I think the world is stirred 
up on the idea of reform today. 

Q. — This idea is being advocated 
today? 

A. — I think there is no question 
about that. For he comes out into 
the world qualified to compete with 
his fellow men. Because without 
this training he cannot compete with 
those he must compete with I think 
there are various things to be 
thought about along that line. 
That's all I think of now. 



TUESDAY, JULY 1, A. D. 1913. 

Mr. W. T. Eldridge asked to be 
permitted to make the following 
statement to the Committee: 

I wanted to explain to the Com- 
mittee that the market on sugar '^ 
New Orleans and New York is based 
similar to the market on cotton. The 
market fluctuates just as tbe cotton 
market changes. Ninety-six test 
sugar is based just the same as mid- 
dling cotton, based on the grading or 
whatever you might call it, and it is 
sold on that basis. The American 
Sugar Refining Company has mad" 
this statement that they control 
ninety per cent, of the output of the 
sugar of the United States. Fifteen 
million dollars will cover every dollar 
of their property; they have a 
ninety million dollar capital and de- 
clare from seventeen to seventy-tw> 
per cent, dividends. 

I made a proposition to the Stat a 
of Texas, through its Penitentiary 
Commission, that I wanted an even 
break. I wanted them to under- 



stand that I would pay the New Or- 
leanse market for the sugar. I never 
asked them to tell me what they 
would pay. I asked them to get 
their best price and tell me what 
they would take for their sugar. I 
was in a position to pay the market 
price for the sugar. I paid the Camp- 
bell administration more than any- 
one else would for it. Last year 
when they sold the black strap for 
from 3 1-4 to 4 cents, I offered a 
friend of mine 5 cents. The other 
day I bought some blackstrap for 
7 cents. I asked them what they 
would take for it, and they said 7 
cents, and I took it. I paid the 
Campbell administration more dfor 
sugar than it would bring on the 
New Orleans or New York market. 
It is sold just like cotton. I never 
have seen it sold any other way, ex- 
cept as to grades and the market. 
I have never asked an even break 
from that great monopoly. 



TUESDAY AFTERNOON, JULY 1, 
1913, AUSTIN, TEXAS. 

J. R. Elliott testified as follows: 

By Senator Willacy: 

Q. — What position do you hold 
with the State? 

A. — I am State Purchasing Agent. 

Q. — Mr. Elliott, have you ever had 
occasion to consider the prices paid 
for supplies by the Prison Commis- 
sion? 

A. — No, not until since the pur- 
chasing has been transferred to me. 

Q. — When was that? 

A. — Since May. I buy supplies 
for various other State institutions. 

Q. — What opportunity would you 
have to compare prices? You buy 
the same character of goods for the 
various other institutions, do you 
not? 

A. — Well, the same character, but 
not the same quality of goods. 

Q. — What do you mean by the 
same quality? 

A. — The same grade of stuff; the 
grade they use in the penitentiary 
does not come up to the grade used 
by the other State institutions. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
the grade of stuff that was purchased 
there? 

A. — I do not, for I have only been 
buying during the months of May 
and June. I believe I began about 
the first of May. 



388 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Have you had opportunity to 
make a comparison as to the same 
grade of goods and the prices paid 
by you and the prices paid by the 
Prison Commission? 

A. — No, sir; nothing except some 
comparisons Mr. Tittle made. An- 
other thing, we buy our supplies in 
larger quantities and numbers than 
they do. 

Q. — Then nothing has come un- 
der your observation to show that 
the State was paying higher prices 
than it would had the purchasing 
been through the State Purchasing 
Agent? 

A. — I could not say. As a gen- 
eral proposition it would look like 
the more goods that were bought 
the better prices could be secured; 
it looks that way to me. We have 
made some very close prices for 
them there. We have been getting 
some close prices for them. We 
bought bacon for them. I bought 
one carload for Huntsville for $13, 
and contracted for three months' 
supplies at $13.10. I believe they 
paid $13.35 during the month of 
April. Of course, there are some 
fluctuations in prices. 

Q. — Do you not buy a good many 
shoes for the various institutions? . 

A. — Yes, sir; I buy a good many. 

Q. — Have you investigated the 
shoes made by the penitentiary sys- 
tem and made comparison as to 
other prices? 

A. — I do not know how they com- 
pare. I can't say. I know this, 
that shoes have advanced in price 
this year. A shoe that I had con- 
tracted for at $1.75 has advanced 
to $2. 

Q. — Have you ever purchased any 
shoes from the Penitentiary Com- 
mission? 

A. — I never have. We make an 
annual contract with factories. 

Q. — Do you know of anything that 
your institutions could buy from the 
penitentiary system? 

A. — No, sir. Our institutions 
make a great deal of their supplies 
themselves. 

Q. — Have you ever been advised 
after making your purchases that 
you were getting them cheaper than 
they had been bought before? 

A. — No, sir. Of course a whole- 
sale merchant can buy cheaper than 
a retail merchant. The more insti- 
tutions and the more supplies we 
buy, the better prices we ought to 



be able to get. We get better prices 
than retail merchants' prices. But 
after the prices are made the 'ques- 
tion of distribution comes in. They 
ship direct to the institutions. No 
additional expenses to redistribute; 
all prices are on delivery. Most 
merchants sell their goods with 
freight collect. In our case we make 
them advance the cash. I have here 
just a little brief statement of prices 
that I have made comparison from 
prices given by Mr. Tittle. During 
the last year they seem to have paid 
higher prices on some goods than 
I did. I have a list of several ar- 
ticles here. 

Q. — Do you know that these 
prices were predicated upon the 
same grade of stuff? 

A. — I do not. I contracted for 
some bacon last year at 11.56. I 
believe they paid 11.92 1-2; bacon 
usually declines in December. 

Q. — Would you say that any part 
of that increase in prices was due 
to the fact that the Prison Commis- 
sion was working on a credit basis? 

A. — I can't account for it in any 
other way. The Prison Commission, 
I think, usually buys one month's 
supplies. That 13.10 price was on 
three months' supplies. I can give 
you these items if you care to hear 
them. Now, in the matter of cof- 
fee, I bought Peaberry coffee. I 
have fifteen grades submitted to me 
to buy one from. We use one grade 
of flour higher than the prison sys- 
tem uses. 

Q. — How much did your purchases 
amount to last year? 

A. — Our purchases last year ran 
something- like one million three hun- 
dred thousand dollars. The repairs 
to the buildings is left off. Now, of 
course, the institutions buy their per- 
ishable things themselves. They get 
them in the local markets. They 
make those contracts themselves. 

Q. — Have you any way to check 
up to see if you receive the grade 
you paid for? 

A. — We have a sample of the 
goods bought, and can make a com- 
parison. The law makes it the duty 
of the storekeeper to examine the 
goods and see that they are the kind 
and quality that is contracted for. 
The grades come up pretty well in 
every respect. Now, as to meal, our 
prices last year ran from fifty cents 
to fifty-eight cents. I think we paid 
sixty-eight cents one month. But 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



389 



you see meal is a thing 1 that you can- 
not keep on hand. Now, I see they 
said sixty-eight cents for some, and 
I have paid sixty-eight cents here in 
Austin. I bought cream meal. As 
to sugar, I don't know the quality 
they use, they paid for their sugar 
4 1-4 cents for six months up to and 
including November. In October they 
paid 5 1-2 cents, and in September 
I believe they paid 5.87 1-2, while 
I contracted for mine, I paid 5.25. 
One of my institutions uses the yel- 
low clarified, and the best price I got 
on that was 5.09. But the only way 
to get at these is to make the com- 
parison with the articles themselves. 
I have samples of "mine that I pur- 
chased. Any other way would be un- 
fair. Now, as to dried fruits, there 
are various grades and it is hard to 
get at, for instance, prunes; I con- 
tracted for some not long ago, forty- 
eight pounds, but of course that de- 
pends on the grade as they differ. 

Senator Willacy states: Yes, I 
know they do. I have handled them. 

Mr. Elliott: Now, in the matter of 
rice, there are many different grades 
and it depends on the kind you buy 
as to the price, if you get the broken 
rice you get it cheaper than the other, 
you can get it for less money. 

Q. — What system do they under- 
stand will be followed in the matter 
of paying for these goods? 

A. — I always advertise that it will 
be paid for in state warrants. I think 
the" merchants have mostly figured 
on a cash basis, a cash proposition. 
I don't think they make any differ- 
ence in cash and the state warrants. 
We pay them all in the state war- 
rants. 

Q. — Give us your opinion fully as 
to whether your merchants would 
make a difference if you were operat- 
ing on a credit system similar to the 
prison system or giving a State war- 
rant that obligated the State to pay 
at the time the money was in the 
State Treasury. Do you think the 
prices would be the same if the mer- 
chants knew the system of payment, 
one the credit system, the other the 
warrant system, payment when the 
money was in the State Treasury. 

A. — Seems to me that if the Prison 
Commissioners had cash that they 
could buy to better advantage. Of 
course, when a merchant has to dis- 
count the warrant his profit is eaten 
up by the discount on the warrant. 
And it would certainly make a dif- 



ference. I bought some goods the 
other day, and the merchant had to 
pay for it in about ten days, but he 
has not gotten his money, he must 
either hold the warrant or discount 
it and if he discounts it his profit is 
eaten up. 

Q. — Are any of them suggesting 
that the state ought to pay the mon- 
ey? 

A. — Yes, sir; some are threatening 
to cancel their contract. 

Q. — What do they discount these 
state warrants for, that is how much ? 

A. — Four or five per cent. 

Interrogated by Mr. L. Tillotson: 

Q. — How many State institutions 
are you purchasing for? 

A. — I think twelve now. I had ten 
and took on one extra and made 
eleven and then I took over the insti- 
tution at Gatesville, which makes 
twelve. 

Q. — Can you furnish us a list of 
supplies that the State institutions 
buy that the Penitentiary Commis- 
sion might be able to furnish, such 
as furniture, wagons, shoes and such 
other articles as the State makes? 

A. — I have been requested to fur- 
nish that list and will try to get it 
up. Will try to do that tonight? 

Q. — Well, any time this week will 
do. 

A. — I'll try to get it up tomorrow 
night. We are hard at work. 



TUESDAY, JULY 1, A. D., 1913, P. 
M., IN OFFICE OF SECRETARY 
OF STATE SENATE, AUSTIN, 
TEXAS. 

Mr. Louis Davis testified as fol- 
lows, interrogated by Mr. Cabell: 

Q. — Where do you live, Mr. Davis? 

A. — Austin, Texas. 

Q. — You looked at those articles 
down there that were brought over 
from the penitentiary? Now, would 
you mind telling these gentlemen 
what you think about them ? 

A. — The articles look well made to 
me. Of course, they could be made 
cheaper, but they were well made. 

Q. — You think the goods, then, are 
well made? 

A. — Yes, well made. The pants are 
much better made than the average 
pants. They are well made. The 
pockets are better made. They are 
made out of duck, instead of a 
cheaper grade of goods. These goods 






390 



Report and Findings of 



are much better than the average 
goods unless they are union made. 

Q. — You saw the prices on them, 
didn't you? 

A. — Yes, sir, I did. 

Q. — What are your ideas about the 
prices on these goods? 

A. — They compare very favorably 
with store prices. 



TUESDAY, JULY 1, A. D. 1913, P. 
M., IN OFFICE OF SECRETARY 
OF STATE SENATE, AUSTIN, 
TEXAS. 

Mr. C. R. Miller, of Dallas, Texas, 
interrogated by Mr. Cabell, testified 
as follows: 

Q. — What is your business, Mr. 
Miller? 

A. — Maker of clothing. 

Q. — How long have you been in 
this business? 

A. — Ever since I was old enough 
to work. 

q. — Now, Mr. Miller, would you 
mind statins, from your expe- 
rience in the clothing business, 
what you think of the clothes that 
you saw down there that were made 
by the Prison System, whether they 
are properly made and everything 
based on your experience? 

A. — I have been in this business for 
thirteen years, ever since I was sev- 
enteen years old. Those garments 
could be turned out a great deal 
cheaper than they are. For a whole 
lot less money, even without reduc- 
ing the quality of the garment. I 
think tney would wear just as long. 
They look like they have been made 
by some merchant tailor that knew 
more about making forty dollar suits 
than making suits of that kind. Those 
pants are all double stitched, the 
edges are sewed down, they have 
flaps, the pockets in the coats are 
cut in, instead of patch pockets, 
which makes them much more ex- 
pensive. This, of course, material- 
ly increased the cost of production. 
They look as I said, like they had 
been made by a mercahnt tailor that 
was getting a good price for his 
work. There is much work done to 
them that is absolutely unnecessary. 
They can get just as good wear out 
of them with much less work done 
on them. And they would look just 
as well. 



Q. — Then to cheapen the garments 
you would have to put in less work 
on them? 

A. — Yes, and not so much thread. 

Q. — In your opinion could the gar- 
ments be cheapened and made as 
they are now? 

A. — They could not, they would 
have to make them cheaper. 



TUESDAY, JULY 1, A. D. 1913, P. 
M., IN OFFICE OF SECRETARY 
OF STATE SENATE, AUSTIN, 
TEXAS. 

Governor Mayes interrogates Mr. 
Eldridge: 

Q. — Colonel Eldridge, you stated 
a while ago you did offer to buy the 
Clemens farm cane last year? 

A. — I bought the Lake Side crop 
last year, at four dollars a ton f. 
o. b. the cars. 

Q. — Were the Commissioners 
aware that the sale was being made 
to you? 

A. — I understood that they ob- 
jected to me buying it. They were 
unquestionably aware that I was buy- 
ing it. I would have been glad to 
have paid the State four dollars a 
ton f. o. b. the cars for their cane. 

Mr. Tittle interrogated by Gover- 
nor Mayes: 

Q. — Now, Mr. Tittle, just explain 
this Lake Side proposition? 

A. — Well, the Lake Side people 
had an old contract with the former 
board to furnish this cane and we 
had to carry out the old contract. 
That contract had to be met and the 
prices had to be met. That con- 
tract extended over to this year. And 
they demanded the cane under the 
contract and of course we had to let 
them have it. We knew that it could 
have been sold for more money at 
that time. 

Q. — What did you obtain last year 
from, the Clemens sugar, that is what 
was the receipts over there? 

A. — I could not tell you. 

Interrogated by Senator Willacy: 

Q. — Mr. Tittle, you were with the 
Committee at the several farms, and 
have heard the many questions that 
have come up, and have heard the 
various suggestions that have been 
made, and you have had time to think 
over all these suggestions. Probably 
you have some suggestions to make, 
probably some corrections to make 
to the committee. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



391 



A. — I don't know that I now think 
of any suggestions to make. I feel 
like the Committee is as familiar 
with the facts and surrounding cir- 
cumstances as the Commission now. 

Q. — The Prison Commission is still 
in the red is it not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — About how much, Mr. Tittle? 

A. — About one million six hundred 
thousand dollars. That is counting 
per diem and over work. 

Q. — Isn't there some money com- 
ing in? Will there not be receipts 
coming in soon? 

A. — Xo, sir; there is nothing com- 
ing in now. This is increasing and 
getting to be more and more every 
day. 

Q. — Please explain that sugar deal. 

A. — The Lake Side people and the 
old board had a contract for the 
sugar, and the crop had been sold 
to them under a contract, that is, to 
the Lake Side sugar people, and the 
receiver of the Lake Side Sugar 
Company demanded the cane and we 
had to furnish it to them. We had 
to deliver the cane over to them. 
We had to live up to the contract 
that they had entered into. I think 
the price paid was $3.35. We could 
have gotten more money at that time 
if it had not been for this contract. 

Governor Mayes interrogates Mr. 
Eldridge: 

Q. — Mr. Eldridge, what do you say 
you paid for that cane? 

A. — I paid four dollars for it. I 
paid the receiver of the Lake Side 
Sugar Company that much for it. 

Mr*. Tittle states: We only got 
$3.3 5, I think. Of course the Lake 
Side people got $4.00 for it. 

Senator Willacy continues inter- 
rogating Mr. Tittle: 

Q. — Are you the financial member 
of the Commission? 

A. — I have charge of the finances 
of the system, that is the division 
that is made by the Commission as 
a whole. 

Q. — Can you tell the Committee 
the amount of raw sugar you had to 
sell last year? 

A. — No, sir; I could not. I don't 
remember those things. I think 
about four million pounds. I won't 
say it was that amount, but that is 
my memory. I would not say posi- 
tively. 

Q. — To whom was it sold? 

A. — To a New Orleans party. 

Q. — Did you have any prices from 
any partes in Texas? 



A. — Xo, sir; we did not try to sell 
it in Texas. 

Q. — Were any efforts made to sell 
it here? 

A. — No, sir; if there was I don't 
i remember it. 

Q. — Did you ever investigate the 
I market to see if a better price could 
be received in Texas than in New 
Orleans? 

A. — Not last year, I did in 1911. 
We sold the sugar at that time to 
the New Orleans people. 

Q. — You sold last year about how 
much sugar? 

A. — I don't remember. I think the 
first sale was ten thousand bags. 
Then we made another sale, but I 
do not know how much. About six- 
teen thousand bags, I think. I 
don't remember. 

Q. — You consider that the sugar 
was sold to the best advantage of 
the State do you, Mr. Tittle? 

A. — I do, yes, sir. 

Q. — You think that applies to all 
sugar sold? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Is there any other purchaser 
for raw sugar in this State than Mr. 
Eldridge? 

A. — No, sir; none that I know of. 

Q. — Can you state to the Commit- 
tee why Mr. Eldridge was not given 
an opportunity to buy this sugar? 

A. — We consider that we had got- 
ten more than he would pay for it. 
We did in 1911, and we thought we 
sold it for more than he would have 
paid for we did the year before. 

Q. — Is this true taking into con- 
sideration the cost of freight and 
brokerage? 

A. — Yes, sir. Mr. Eldridge did 
not make us any offer himself. Mr. 
Eldridge said something about it, 
but we decided to sell the sugar and 
take the market price for it. 1 
called Mr. Eldridge up over the phone 
and told him what we were going 
to offer the State sugar for, and he 
told me to get the best price I could 
for it and let him know what it was 
and he would meet it, I toll him that 
I wanted him to bid on the sugar, I 
agreed to sell the sugar at the best 
price. I reported my action to the 
Commission, I told them that the 
price was the best that we could get 
and that this was the best price 
that we could get and the least thai 
we could afford to sell for. On Mon- 
day morning in October I received a 
message from New Orleans offering 
4.75 for the sugar, I told Mr. Hanks 



392 



Report and Findings of 



to call up Mr. Eldridge and see what 
he would pay for the sugar. Mr. 
Hanks called Mr. Eldridge up and 
he was not at home, but was gone to 
San Antonio, then we told his man 
to get in communication with him as 
soon as he could and we would wait. 
We told him to tell him that we had 
an offer of 4.75 for the sugar. I 
told them that I believed we could 
carry that offer over until the next 
day and maybe we could hear from 
Mr. Eldridge by that time. The next 
day we called again but he had not 
gotten bac"k, but they were looking 
for him back that night, or the next 
morning. But when we did get in 
communication with him he said that 
4.60 was the best that he could do. 
So we sold the sugar at New Or- 
leans. Our account sales will show 
the amount. I do not remember the 
amount. That was f. o. b. the cars, 
the sugar was worth about five cents 
in New Orleans, the freight rate was 
about 25 cents. Four -sixty was the 
offer he made and said it was the 
best that he could do. 

Q. — Now, Mr. Tittle, just tell the 
Committee what you think the effect 
is of buying good on the credit and 
on the prison notes? 

A. — Well, I think we could get 
good eight or ten per cent cheaper 
if we had the cash to pay for them. 
They then take from one to three 
per cent discount for cash, which we 
can not get advantage of. I think 
that eight or ten per cent will cover 
the amount that we pay over the 
regular price or more than we would 
have to pay if we had the cash, there 
may have been some articles that 
we paid fifteen or twenty per cent 
more. I do not know about that. In 
addition to that we have to pay in- 
terest on our bills payable, of course. 
We have had a hard time of it. But 
the best men of Texas have been 
very accommodating to us. The bus- 
iness men of Texas have been very 
kind to us. 

Q. — The Legislature appropriated 
four hundred fifty thousand dollars 
to meet the expenses, have you fig- 
ured how long it will run you? . 

A. — Yes, sir; it will run us until 
about the first of September. We 
now have two hundred three thou- 
sand, we had that last Thursday. We 
will have some resources, but not 
much. We will have some black- 
strap to take off. 

Q. — Are you putting up any build- 
ings now? 



A. — Only' one, down on the Ram- 
sey place, now. There are some lit- 
tle improvements but they do not 
amount to much. 

Q. — What has been done with the 
electric power plant at Rusk? 

A. — It is there. We have told the 
people there of our intentions. Mr. 
Cabell was over there last week. I 
understand from him that they are 
putting in a boiler of their own. He 
tells me that he told them that they 
would have to make their own ar- 
rangements for power. 

Q. — What is your idea about put- 
ting criminals under the age of 
twenty-one years in with the others? 
What do you think of the idea of 
establishing an industrial training 
school? 

A. — I don't know about that. 
The criminal that comes to the pen- 
itentiary today does not know much 
and doesn't care to know much, 
They are usually sent for two years 
and they get out in twenty-two 
months and they don't care. They 
could not learn a great deal in that 
time, besides. Of course, they 
ought to be separated from the other 
criminals. 

Interrogated by Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — You stated that you had °nly 
some blackstrap and some third 
sugar on hand. Haven't you some 
on the House place? 

A. — Yes, I thought of that, but 
that is tied up at the present time; 
it is pending settlement. 1 suppose 
that will be settled in the near fu- 
ture. 

Q. — You state that the appropria- 
tion would run you until about Sep- 
tember first; the only thing that you 
will have coming in before the cot- 
ton crop is this twenty-five or thirty 
thousand dollars. How long will 
this run you? 

A. — It will not run us over thirty 
days. 

Q. — Have you ever prepared a list 
of the expenditures for all of the 
departments of the system since be- 
ginning of 1911? 

A. — Yes, sir. I think we have a 
complete list of that. I think Mr. 
Hanks brought it over. It ought 
to be here tomorrow evening. I 
think it is something over $900,000. 

Q. — In making those improve- 
ments, you are familiar with the 
facts and that these buildings should 
have been made fireproof as the law 
requires? 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



393 



A. — Well, the Commission did not 
contract for fireproof buildings be- 
cause they did not have the material 
and they could buy the lumber on 
time and they could not buy the 
other material on time. We deemed 
it impracticable to make them out 
of material that would make them 
fireproof. I don't think we got any 
estimate on fireproof buildings. We 
did not think of it serious because 
we had no funds to do it with. We 
knew we had twelve to fifteen build- 
ings to put up and that one or two 
fireproof buildings would have cost 
as much as all of these entire build- 
ings. 

Q. — Did you secure estimates on 
them as fireproof buildiDgs? 

A. — No, sir; we never secured any 
estimates. 

Q. — Your statement of the indebt- 
edness of the system is up to July 
1st, is it not? 

A. — Up to June 27th, I think. 
We can make it in a day or two 
up to July 1st. 

Colonel W. T. Eldrldge made the 
following statement: I tried to get 
that sugar. I knew the fight I had 
to make to get that sugar. Per- 
haps I might have told Mr. Tittle to 
get the best offer he could get, but 
I never told him to tell me what he 
could get. I never asked him to 
tell me nobody's bid. In my con- 
versation with Mr. Tittle I rold him 
to get the best price he could for 
the sugar and then tell me what 
would buy it. 



WEDNESDAY, JULY 2, A. D., 1913, 
IN OFFICE OF THE SECRE- 
TARY OF THE STATE SENATE, 
AUSTIN, TEXAS. 

Hon. Robert Goodfellow, before 
the Penitentiary Investigating Com- 
mittee, testified as follows, being in- 
terrogated by Lieutenant Governor 
Will H. Mayes: 

Q. — What business were you en- 
gaged in in 1911, Mr. Goodfellow? 

A. — I was warden of the Rusk 
penitentiary. 

Q. — At what period? 

A. — From February until about 
September, I believe that is it. I 
would not be positive. It may be the 
last of January. 

Q. — As warden of the penitentiary 
did you have anything to do with the 



financial management of the peniten- 
tiary ? 

A. — Well, yes; I would say that I 
did. 

Q. — The affairs of the penitentiary 
were under your super vision as war- 
den of the Rusk penitentiary? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — I have a copy of a communi- 
cation dated March 30, 1912, signed 
by you and directed to the Governor? 
Did you write this communication? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — In that communication you 
state that in 1911, you dispensed with 
your assistant warden, who was also 
acting as steward, and received for 
these duties the sum of fifty dollars 
per month? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Was he a competent man for 
the position? 

A. — We regarded him as such. 

Q. — Well, who took charge of those 
two offices, when he was discharged? 

A. — After he was released there 
was a man named Meeks appointed 
at a salary of $100 per month. I for- 
get the name of the other gentle- 
man that they placed in his stead as 
steward at a salary of $50 per month. 

Q. — Then they released one compe- 
tent man that was doing the work at 
a salary of $50 and replaced him with 
a man that was getting $100 per 
month and another man that was get- 
$50 per month. Was N this man 
discharging his duties satisfactorily? 

A. — I never heard any complaint. 
I think so. 

Q. — How many men were there in 
the penitentiary at that time. Ap- 
proximately ? 

A. — I think something near one 
hundred and ten or twelve. I think 
is was never over one hundred and 
fifty. 

Q. — Were any other men employed 
by the Penitentiary Commission other 
than the two you have just stated 
whose services might not have been 
entirely necessary? 

A. — There was a fellow named Fin- 
ley in the walls. I didn't know just 
what his duties were. 

Q. — What duties did he discharge? 

A. — He seemed to walk about and 
look at the prisoners and say some- 
thing to them. 

Q. — By what title was he known? 

A. — I really can't say that he had 
any title. 

Q. — What salary did you pay this 
man? 



394 



Report and Findings of 



A. — I think forty or forty-five dol- 
lars per month. 

Q. — Had there been a man in that 
position at Rusk before? 

A. — Not immediately before that. 

Q. — Was there any necessity for 
this man? 

A. — I can't see any. 

Q. — What were they paying their 
bookkeeper? 

A. — Seventy-five dollars per 
month. 

Q. — Was he competent? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Was his salary increased? 

A. — They took him to Huntsville. 
I think they increased his salary. 

Q. — They grave you another man? 

A. — Yes; his name is Pete Walker, 
at a salary of an increase of twenty- 
five dollars per month. 

Q. — Was he competent? 

A. — I didn't consider him as com- 
petent as the other man for the 
place at that time. 

Q. — In what condition did you find 
the residences on the State farm? 

A. — In bad condition. 

Q. — Were repairs being made dur- 
ing your administration? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What did you do about the 
work? 

Q. — I undertook the repairs on one 
of these places. 

Q. — What amount of labor did you 
repair this building with? And what 
kind? 

A. — With convicts mostly. We had 
one free laborer. 

Q. — What did you do to that one 
building? 

A. — We recovered it, put in gal- 
leries and repainted and repapered 
it. 

Q. — How long did free laborer 
and those convicts employ in that 
work? 

A. — I believe it took four con- 
victs and that free laborer five days, 
I think it was, for covering of the 
house and putting the galleries in and 
the papering and painting took five 
or six days probably. 

Q. — How did this* building compare 
in size with the other buildings? 

A. — It was a little larger building 
than most of them except one. 

Q. — In about what condition was it 
compared with the others? 

A. — They were all pretty much run 
down. 



Q. — Did you sugest any plan that 
the other buildings would be re- 
paired ? 

A.— I told Mr. Tittle that my idea 
would be to use convict labor wvth 
free labor as foreman. 

Q. — Was your plan pursued? 

A. — No, sir; free labor was em- 
ployed. 

Q. — What did this free labor cost? 

A. — I don't know what they 
charged, only what they told me. 

Q. — What time did they put in? 
What time did they consume in this 
work ? 

A. — During the summer. 

Q. — How many did they work? 

A. — From five to seven. 

Q. — What did you say they were 
paid? 

A. — Some of them said $5 per 
day. I can not say what they were 
paid. That is what they told me. 

Q. — That is what they told you? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — How long were they employed 
there by the Penitentiary Commis- 
sion? 

A. — They came in August some 
time and were there when I left in 
the fall in September. They were 
there when I left. 

Q. — When did you leave? 

A. — I don't remember when I left. 
It might have been in November. 

Q. — Where did they get their 
meals? 

A. — They ate inside with the pris- 
oners and guards inside of the 
prison. 

Q. — Did they mix with the con- 
victs? 

A. — Yes, they mixed with the con- 
victs and were allowed to come and 
go as they pleased. 

Q. — What about a change that 
was made in the ginning? 

A. — I was having the ginning of 
our cotton done close to the State 
farm at a gin owned by an old 
darkey, who owned the gin. The 
old negro was charging the State 
50 to 60 cents on the hundred for 
the ginning. This was fine cotton. 
The State had paid a dollar per 
bushel for the seed. This old negro 
would clean the gin out and give 
us pure seed and our lint. By order 
of Mr. Tittle we had to move the 
ginning to town and of course it 
mixed the seed and the lint on one 
side of the bale. We got Mr. Pryor 
to do the ginning down there at his 
gin at town. We had to pay him 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



395 



a fifteenth, and it ran something like 
$5 per hale. We had been paying 
$3.50 per bale. It was more con- 
venient to take it to the gin at the 
farm, as we had it near and could 
bring it back with us and store it up 
in the prison. The town gin was 
about two and one-half miles away 
and besides that the town gin was 
always crowded. We would bring 
the cotton to town and we would 
have to wait for our turn. It would 
throw us late about getting in and 
the town folks remarked about us 
being out with the convicts late at 
night. 

Q. — Did you get as clean seed at 
town? 

A. — The ginning was just as good, 
except it would mix the State's seed. 
It decreased the price of the seed 
about 5 per cent. Nobody wanted 
them mixed. 

Q. — What kind of cotton was the 
State growing at that time? 

A. — Why, really, I can't recall the 
name of it, but they purchased the 
seed at $1 per bushel. They were 
fine seed. 

Q. — How late at night would you 
keep those convicts out? 

A. — Sometimes, occasionally, it 
would be 9 o'clock before we got 
the convicts into the walls. 

Q. — What did you do about feed- 
ing them when they were out late 
at night? 

A. — Why, very often I paid for 
it out of my own pocket. 

Q. — You state here that the State 
had fifty-five bales ginned at the 
city gin from which they should 
have received 1650 bushels of seed 
at least. Then, if the State lost 50 
cents per bushel on these by reason 
of having them ginned at the city 
gin, then would not the loss on the 
seed alone be $825? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think that is cor- 
rect. 

Q. — There was also a loss, you 
figure, of $2.33 1-3 a bale on the 
ginning of the fifty-five bales of cot- 
ton? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know anything else 
with reference to the management of 
the penitentiary at Rusk in its past 
methods that this committee should 
know? 

A. — Nothing except that which 
took place while I was there. 

Q. — And these things occurred 
about as you have stated them? 



A. — Yes, sir, about that way. 

Q. — Any other evidences of mis- 
management? 

A. — I remember I received a letter 
in regard to the conduct of one of the 
under officers and I told him of it* 
this letter came from the Commis- 
sion. I told him about it and he 
said that there was nothing to it 
that the letter was a forgery. I re- 
ported another gentleman for being 
drunk and coming inside with a six- 
shooter and I don't think it was ever 
very satisfactory. These men were 
not discharged but sent to another 
nlace. That is the last one especial- 
ly. 

Q. — Where was he sent and how 
long did he stay? 

A. — I don't know. I don't know 
how long he stayed. 

Q. — Have you any other informa- 
tion that would be of benefit to this 
Committee? 

A. — That is about all. That was 
the way that it was run. 

Q. — Has the warden much or lit- 
tle authority over there? 

A. — The warden has very little au- 
thority over there. 

Interrogated further by Mr. Tillot- 
son: 

Q. — Mr. Goodfellow, in the time 
that you were there, was the num- 
ber of men in the Rusk prison in- 
creased? 

A. — I believe it was, but I wont 
be sure. 

Q. — About how many men were 
there when you went there? 

A. — I believe there was about 
eighty or ninety. I don't know 
whether there were ever over one 
hundred and fifty or not. I think it 
averaged about one hundred men. 

Q. — Was there an increase there 
during the time that these men were 
employed? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so, but not 
materially. I think it was about the 
same number. 

Q. — How many convicts did you 
use in the ginning operations? 

A. — Well, we used three wagons 
and drivers in hauling it to the gin. 
That took three drivers. 

Q. — Where was this guard that 
was retained in the services sent 
to? 

A. — He was not kept there but 
was sent to some farm. 

Q. — What was his name? 



396 



Report and Findings of 



A. — His name was John Meeks. I 
left there about that time, but this 
guard was sent somewhere else. 

Q. — By whom were you appointed? 

A. — Mr. Tittle and Mr. Cabell 
spoke to me about it. 

Q. — What was the circumstances 
of your leaving the services? 

A. — It was along this line: I re- 
ported this gentleman, Mr. Meeks. 
He was the starter of it. 

Q. — Didn't you have a mutiny up 
there? What caused it? 

A. — Yes, sir; but I dropped out 
about that time. I don't know much 
about it. I dropped out of the mat- 
ter and just let them have their own 
way. They had a meeting up there 
which I suppose grew out of the mut- 
iny. That was the time that they 
held a conference up there. After 
that I discontinued my services. 

Q. — How many men were in that 
mutiny? 

A. — Well, now, I don't remember 
the number. I think twelve or fif- 
teen men. 

Q. — How long did it continue? 

A. — It continued about a week. We 
had them in the cells a good while. 

Q. — Did you report to the Prison 
Commissioners that you could not 
handle the thing yourself? 

A. — No, sir. I reported a mutiny 
and about the gentlemen going inside 
the walls drunk with a gun on and 
his being intoxicated. The Commis- 
sioners came up and held their con- 
ference. 

Q. — Did they charge you with be- 
ing responsible for any of this 
trouble? 

A. — I think they did. I think Mr. 
Cabell did. When they took the tes- 
timony down there and some of them 
didn't know why I was ready to give 
it over. I thought if I couldn't 
handle it I didn't want to impose 
myself on the State. 

Q. — What was the cause of the 
mutiny briefly as you understood 
it? 

A. — As well as I remember, one 
or two of them were opposed to my 
course. In fact in the prison you will 
find somebody ready to start a mut- 
iny and they will often find a num- 
ber always ready to join them. 

Q. — And those parties secured oth- 
ers to join with them? 

A. — Yes, sir; at the start I think 
there were seven. 

Q. — How were they employed? At 
what work? 



A. — I believe they were wood 
choppers, I think they were. I would 
not be positive about that. 

Q. — All whites of course? 

A. — I believe they were all whites. 

Interrogated further by Lieuten- 
ant Governor Mayes: 

Q. — While you were at Rusk how 
were most of the men employed? 

A. — About thirty or forty in the 
foundries and machine shops, as well 
as I remember and on the farm and 
about a like number in the woods 
chopping wood. 

Q. — That is the divisions? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tittle interrogates Mr. Good- 
fellow: 

Q. — Mr. Goodfellow, you stated 
about the Assistant Warden's salary 
and that it was raised and a steward 
appointed, do you remember what 
the steward's wages were? 

A. — As I remember it was fifty 
dollars a month. 

Q. — Do you know that to be a 
fact? 

A. — That was what I heard. 

Q. — Who were in these places? 

A. — P. P. Reynolds and a Mr. Wil- 
kinson and you had me to take them 
out. 

Q. — Who appointed the assistant 
warden? The last one? 

A. — It was my understanding that 
you appointed the last one. 

Q. — I appointed the first one. Who 
told you I appointed the last one? 

A. — I think he told me himself. 

Q. — You don't know anything 
about the minutes of the Commis- 
sion, do you? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Is it not a fact that your of- 
ficers were increased considerably 
during the time you were in charge? 

A. — The records are the best evi- 
dence of that, I suppose. 

Q. — You don't know whether I 
appointed Meeks or not? 

A.-— That was my understanding. 

Q. — Now you spoke of the work 
done on the residence there. Do 
you remember how long you had 
those convicts and that foreman 
working on that residence? 

A — I remember it took us five or 
six days to cover the house. 

Q. — About what month did you 
commence? 

A. — I don't know. We had a lot 
of work on those houses when those 
other people were working too. 

Q. — Is it not a fact that I had a 
talk with you and we decided those 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



397 



convicts would not complete the 
houses during the year? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Who is this man that told 
you he got five dollars per day? 

A. — I don't remember his name, 
I could point him out if I could see 
him. 

Q. — You state that you were war- 
den of the Rusk prison and didn't 
know what Mr. Finley was doing? 

A. — You told me to put him in 
and give him a job. 

Q. — Didn't I tell you that we 
would use him as inside man? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Didn't I 'tell you we had al- 
ways had an inside man? 

A — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Are you a bookkeeper? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you know anything about 
It.' 

A — No, sir. 

Q. — Do you know anything ahout 
Mr. Walton's bookkeeping? 

A. — No, only I know a man that 
won't stay at his place is not fit to 
keep books. I know nothing about 
his qualifications. I did know he 
would not stay with his place of 
duty. One time he went off and was 
gone a week and I wired to Hunts- 
ville to try to locate him. You peo- 
ple came there and went over every- 
thing. You and Mr. Cabell went 
over everything. 

Q. — Did you ever drink any whis- 
key in that prison? 

A. — No, sir; I was there one day 
and Daffin was there and told me to 
have a drink. I would not drink 
and told him I did not want any- 
thing. 

Q. — What is the difference in the 
dirtance from the farm to the ne- 
gro's gin and from the farm to the 
gin at town? What is the difference? 

A. — I suppose you wanted to show 
the conveniences of the two, and to 
show one would be less expensive 
than the other to gin at? 

Q. — I didn't ask you that? 

A. — The negro's gin is about three- 
fourths of a mile from the farm, the 
town gin is about two and one-half 
miles. 

Q. — What kind of a gin did the 
negro have? 

A. — He had good machinery, that 
is, just like that of other cotton 
gins. And he did good work, and 
I had sold for top prices. It was not 
a fine gin, but it was a good gin. 



Q. — Is it not a fact that this gin 
was all run down? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — You stated I ordered you to 
make the change? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Then you think that I am re- 
sponsible for the order being made? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Did you ever go over there 
and see Mr. Pryor about separating 
the State's seed? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What did he say? 

A. — Said he didn't see how he 
could do it. Didn't see how it could 
be done. 

Q. — What kind of a gin was his? 
Was it up-to-date in every respect? 

A. — It was a good gin, had im- 
proved machinery and suctions, etc. 

Q. — And then he didn't separate 
the seed? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Were you there and saw that 
he did not? 

A. — I was right there and went 
with the wagons. 

Q. — Then you would say that Mr. 
Pryor is mistaken if he says that 
he did separate the seed for you as 
requested? 

A. — They were not separated. 

Q. — Now in answer to Mr. Tillot- 
son you stated you did not know why 
you were let out? 

A. — I don't know why I was let 
out, but would like to know now. 

Q. — You know you peVmitted con- 
victs and their wives to go up in 
the prison and lock themselves in a 
room and stay all day? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think that is true. 

Q. — You permitted convicts to take 
their wives up there and stay there 
and sent their meals to them? 

A. — I don't know about that. We 
had two convicts that were trusties, 
they went where they pleased and 
their wives could have seen them 
anywhere, but they would not do 
that but they came and asked per- 
mission to talk to them. They were 
down in town and everywhere and 
could have seen them down there 
but then they would not do that. 
They came and asked to speak to 
their husbands. This room up there 
is barred off separate and this has 
been done lots ot times. The guards 
were sleeping right across the hall. 
While they were up there dinner 
time came on and we sent their din- 
ner up there, this happened twice or 
maybe three time.3, inn this hod been 



398 



Report and Findings of 



happening for forty years before 
thar. Then I have learned fof the 
first time that the, fact that I let a 
woman talk to her husband and they 
were trusties and this caused me to 
lose my position and be let our. I 
find I was let out because I let these 
two women see their husbands. 

Q. — Doesn't the record show that 
they stayed there all day? 

A. — I don't know about that. 

Q. — Now the negro ginned all of 
our cotton except fifty-five bales at 
sixty cents a hundred. It would be 
about three dollars a bale? You 
know what that cotton brought at 
first? 

A. — I got a quarter of a cent more 
than the cotton on the market 
brought that day. 

Q. — If Mr. Pryor tells you he sep- 
arated the seed of the State from 
the others would you think he was 
mistaken and that they mixed with 
the other seed? 

A. — Yes, because I stood there and 
saw them mixed. 

Q. — How do you consider Mr. 
Fryor, a truthful man? 

A. — I think Mr. Pryor is a perfect 
gentleman. 

Q. — Who made the appointment 
of officers over there and fixed their 
salaries? 

A. — I don't know anything about 
it only what they would tell me. I 
always got orders from you. 

Mr. Brahan interrogates Mr. 
Goodfellow: 

Q. — You remember of the two 
times you told me amout the em- 
ployes there not doing as you want- 
ed them to and I told you didn't 
make any difference who appointed 
them that when you would make a 
complaint to me I would take it up. 
I tried to impress on the minds of 
the warden or other officers of the 
penitentiaries as far as I was con- 
cerned I tried to impress on their 
minds that it would be taken up. 

A. — This came about over a party 
that was appointed underkeeper for 
the farm. I told Mr. Brahan that 
he didn't suit me, and he made that 
statement to me then. 

Mr. Tittle interrogates Mr. Bra- 
han: 

Q. — Mr. Brahan, you made the mo- 
tion to appoint Mr. Meeks, didn't 
you? 

A. — I think I did; I was present 
when it was made, and concurred 
in it. 



Q. — Now, when the steward was 
appointed and the salary agreed on, 
who made the sugestion about it? 

A. — That appointment was made 
on the suggestion of Mr. Goodfellow. 

Q. — During the spring and summer 
of 1911 how were we fixed for labor? 

A. — I think we were a little bit 
short. We put additional men at 
Rusk. We put twenty-five men at 
one time. We agreed we would in- 
crease the number there until we got 
it up to over thre hundred last year. 
We had to get these buildings ready 
and we had to employ a great num- 
ber of carpenters and we found in the 
work that it was better to have work 
done by free labor and free carpen- 
ters. We found it could be done a 
great deal cheaper. It would have 
taken three years to have finished 
those houses and we were under obli- 
gations to get them ready for occu- 
pancy. All labor that was employed 
was reported and the Commission 
endorsed the action. 

Q. — Was there any appointments 
made by me that the Commission was 
not responsible for? 

A. — The Commission made all of 
them. 

Q. — Do you remember during the 
fall of 1911, Mr. Goodfellow called 
me up and we had a conversation 
over the 'phone, and I told you that 
Mr. Goodfellow was having his cot- 
ton ginned at an old dilapidated gin 
and that he had to carry it over 
there and then haul it back to town 
and that I thought he would get bet- 
ter services at town and that it would 
be better in the long run. Don't you 
remember what you stated and what 
Mr. Cabell stated? 

A. — I think I said that everything 
being equal, I wanted a white man to 
do the work, I think we all agreed 
to let the white man do the work, 
everything else being equal. And Mr. 
Cabell or myself made a motion to 
have the cotton ginned in town. 

Q. — Then it was the act of the 
Commission? I held the phone, 
didn't I? 

A.— Yes. 

Q. — Who was present beside you 
and I? 

A. — I think Mr. Cabell was there. 

Mr. Goodfellow interrogates Mr. 
Tittle: 

Q. — You think everything was 
equal as far as the handling of the 
cotton was concerned, taking into 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



399 



consideration the price of the seed 
and the cotton ? 

A. — Yes, sir; I think so. 

Q. — It cost us more money to have 
it ginned and more to have it hauled 
and more hands, and while I am no 
negro man, either, but his gin was 
right at us and the work was just as 
well as Mr. Pryor's, the cotton sold 
at a higher price and for that rea- 
son I had the ginning done there. 

Mr. Tittle interrogates Mr. Good- 
fellow: 

Q. — These charges which I have 
here are made against Tittle alone, 
aren't they? 

A. — My dealings- were with you. 
That is the reason I made my state- 
ment as it came from me. 

Q. — Then you think I am responsi- 
ble to von? 

A. — The agent is responsible. I 
was looking to you. 

Q. — That makes no difference to 
you, I think it was properly handled. 
I want you to know that I filed this 
answer here to the charges you made 
against me. 

A. — I filed those charges because 
vou were the one that I had the deal- 
ings with. 

Q. — Do you not think the Commis- 
sion is responsible? 

A. — I would think they are respon- 
sible, the same as you. I think they 
were responsible for this man stay- 
ing with the service. 

Q. — I promised to get my answer. 
Here it is and I want it in the rec- 
ord. Here is the cost of ginning the 
cotton and it is filed with the charges 
I wish to file this answer to Mr. 
Goodfelow's charges. 

Mr. Brahan makes the following 
statement: 

When we re-organized our work 
we found that we didn't care to make 
any difference in the officers of the 
penitentiary at Rusk and to make 
the of any less conseunence than at 
the Huntsville penitentiary. We put 
the warden's salary, and the others 
at the same, we tried to fix them at 
the same salary. I don't think the 
warden's salary should have been, but 
we agreed we wanted to make them 
of the same dignity. 

Mr. Tittle makes the following 
statement: 

You will find in my reply that we 
decided that both prisons should be 
treated alike and recosrnized as pris- 
ons. We would place them all on the 
same salaries, that is salaries at the 



same prices so that we could build 
them up. 

Mr. Goodfellow made the following 
statement: 

I would like to ask Mr. Tittle, do 
you think that the officers' salaries 
at Rusk prison compared with the 
ones at Huntsville? 

A. — The minutes would show that. 
I refer to that matter in my answers 
here. 

Governor Mayes makes the follow- 
ing statement: 

We should have those minutes here 
tomorrow. 

The following charges were then 
presented in writing and a written 
answer to same filed by Mr. Tittle. 

Austin, Texas. 
Dear Governor : 

Having noted the Penitentiary state- 
ment in the Dallas News recently, 
which shows that the Penitentiary 
System is indebted to a considerah 1 " 
amount. Having been connected with 
that institution at one time and bei^g 
in posession of some facts, which ! 
am s'ure will be of interest to you, I 
am taking advantage of this opportun- 
ity to submit you herewith a state- 
ment of how a portion of this indebted 
ness might have been brought about. 

Acting under the instructions of L 
W. Tittle, Financial Agent of that In- 
stitution, I dispensed with my assist- 
ant warden, who acted as steward 
and received for his two-fold duty 
$50.00 per month. Shortly after hav- 
ing dispensed with my Assistaa* 
Warden he appointed another, but 
the new man received $100.00 per 
rrcnth for his services. He at the 
same time gave me a new Steward who 
received for his service a salary >f 
$50.00 per month. As you can readily 
see the new system cost the State of 
Texas $1200.00 per annum more than 
the old way. Tins was uncalled fj; 
as an Assistant Warden with 150 men, 
and which number we never had in 
excess of, could fill both positio-.is 
will all ease. He also placed an ex- 
tra Tan on the yard as Second Assist- 
ant Warden at a salary of $480.00 per 
annum. Next he increased the salary 
of the bookkeeper from $75.00 to 
$100.00 per month causinu an increase 
of iv'.OO 00 per annum. 

The State owns ten residences 
located on the State's land adjoining 
the Penitentiary at Rusk. These 
buildings were very badly is need of 
and I selected Cout cony] ! 
carpenters and roshingled one of the 



400 



Report and Findings op 



largest buildings in four days' time. 
I then enployed one free laborer who 
with the assistance of one convict 
repapered and painted the interior in 
six days t'me. Thinking this tin 
most economical way to repair these 
buildings, I suggested to Mr. Tittle 
that he allow ire to employ (free la- 
bor) foremen for the carpenter gang 
and also for the painters and paper 
hangers' gang, who should do the 
work with convict labor, believing thar 
by this method we would save tne 
State at least $10.00 per day on this 
work and at the same time save tie 
board of the (free laborers). Mr. 
Tittle did not de as suggested, but 
vent ahead and employed (free labor 1 
out and oat and these men begun 
work about the first of August an.l 
when I left there in November they 
were still at work on the State build- 
ings. Bear in mind that the building 
which I o verb allied wilh convict labor 
was one of . the largest of the ten 
residences. By doing as I suggested 
we would have prevented the mixing 
of convicts with (free laborers) inside 
the walls, which causes commotion 
and has a tendency to bring about bad 
discipline in the Prison. 

I had an agreement with the cotton 
gin located near the Prison farm t-. 
do ginning for the State at 60c per 
hundred pounds. As the State's co - 
ton was of a very tine variety I alsu 
had an understanding with the ginnei 
that he was to clear the ginstand of 
all other cotton and seed before gin- 
ning any of the State's cotton, thereby 
insuring that every bale of our cotton 
would be long lint throughout anil 
that our seed would not be mixed with 
inferior grades. This seed cost the 
State $1.00 per bushel and we would 
have found ready sale for them at that 
price. Mr. Tittle gave me positive 
orders over the telephone to ston 
ginning at the above named gin, at the 
same time instructing me to transport 
all cotton to the city gin in the future. 
Here the Slate paid 1-15 of the liiii 
and seed for ginning or about $5.55% 
per hale, while the ginning at the farm 
only cost $3.00 per bale and also 
saved the time of convicts in transport- 
ing cotton to the city gin, which was 
three miles away, to sav nothing of 
the building of wagon frames and the 
use of horses and mules owned by the 
State. The worst feature of the city 
gin was that they did not clear the;i* 
stands when ginning the State's cottoci, 
causing a decrease of fifty per cent in 
the sale price of the seed. In nor 



cleaning their stands they also mixed 
the lint of the State's cotton with 
that of .enferior grades, thereby de- 
creasing the sale price of the lint. In 
complying with the instructions of Mr. 
Tittle convicts were kept up town as 
late as 9:00 o'clock at night, long after 
the locking up hour, which caused com- 
ment among the people of Rusk, in 
a number of instances I have paid for 
the convicts' lunches up town in orde.' 
that they might hold their turn at 
the gin. The following is a state 
ment of money actually lost by having 
the ginning done at the city gin. 

Cost of ginning 500 lb. at city gin, 
1-15 of the lint and seed, or $3.33% for 
lint and $2.00 for seed at the prices 
which a received for the first tv/enty 
bales ginned at the gin near the pri- 
son. 
Cost of ginning at city gin, 1-15 

of lint and seed $5.33% 

Cost of ginning at gin near 

State farm 3.00 

Less on ginning one bale City 

gin $2.3'3.y 3 

The State had fifty-fiv<» bales gin 
ned at the city gin from which they 
should have received 1650 bushels ot 
seed at least, which if kept clean 
would have sold for $1.0r> per bushel 
or $1650, but as they were not kept 
clean the value was decreased fifty 
per cent, or $825.00, which is loss. 

The following is a tabulated* state- 
ment of losses. and expenses incurred 
under the direction and supervision 
of Mr. L. W. Tittle, which orders were 
given in person, over the telephone 
and by letter. 

By Assistant Warden $1200.00 

By .Second Assistant Warden 480. CO 
P>v increase in Bookkeeper's 

Salary 300.03 

Loss on Cotton S^ed caused by 

mixing at gin 825.00 

Loss on Ginning Cotton at City 

Gin 128.33% 

Total Loss $293*3.33% 

I am sure an investigation of this 
matter will bear me out in each and 
every instance, and I invite you to 
make or have made an investigaticu 
of these matters. You will under- 
stand that I am, as I have always beefr, 
a loyal friend to you and I am only 
doing this because I think it well that 
you know how some of the indebted- 
ness of the Penitentiary has been 
brought about by the mismanagement 
of Mr. L. W. Tittle. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



401 



Trusting that you will receive this 
information in the manner in which 
it is intended, I beg to remain as 
ever, 

Your friend, 
(Signed) 

ROBERT GOODFELLOW. 
March 3oth, 1912. 

Office of Board of Prison Commis- 
sioners, Huntsville, Texas. 

April 17, 1912. 
Governor O. B. Colquitt, 

Austin, Texas. 
Dear Governor: 

In regard to tho statement made by 
Mr. Robert Goodfellow in his commun- 
ication to you of March 30th, of this 
year, I beg leave to say that so far 
as they bear the construction that I 
have personally been in favor of un- 
necessary expenditures in the peni- 
tentiary service, and in so far as they 
would leave the inference that I have 
taken it upon myself to act arbitrarily 
with him, or in any important matter, 
without the concurrence of and the 
authority of the other commissioners, 
they are wholly unjustified by the 
facts. 

Assistant Warden and Steward. 

It was not contemplated by the 
Commission nor by yourself that the 
forces at Rusk would remain at any- 
thing similar to the small number to 
which they bad been reduced by the 
preceding administration. As I un- 
derstood your personal views, it was 
your idea that in so far as practicable. 
Rusk penitentiary should be main- 
tained on the same scale as Hunts 
ville. Immediately after the organiza 
tion of the Commission, (1 — 26 — 11) 
the entire membership being present, 
in conformity with this idea "a motion 
was made, duly seconded and carried, 
wherin it was ordered that the same 
offices be created for Rusk Prison as 
at Huntsville whenever the necessi:y 
for same existed*'. Officrs, in some 
cases called by different titles, had 
always existed at the Rusk Prison 
similar to tbose created. The title of 
"TJnderkeepcr" was formerly applied 
to the person Who performed the duties 
of Assistant Warden. The prison 
had alwavs had both an underkeeper 
and a steward, except for a very 
short time when tbere were practicall * 
no men at the prison. In the summer 
of 1911. the Commission was prepar 
ing to enlarge the activities at the 
Rusk Prison, and deemed it advisable 
to prepare for same, and elected Mr. 



J. H. Meeks Assistant Warden at a 
salary of $100.00 per month. This was 
the act of the whole Commission. Mr. 
Goodfellow says that "at the same 
time" I gave him a new steward at 
$50.00 per month. Whether at the 
same or different time is not material 
as to the justice of the criticism in 
doing this, but his error in this re- 
spect is merely referred to as an 
evidence of his disregard of even small 
facts. Mr Meeks was elected Assist- 
ant Warden July 3, 1911, and Mr. 
Cameron, Steward on July 21, 1912. 
Individually, my part in these matter£ 
j was based wholly upon my belief that 
it was for the good of the service; 
and I am equally sure the same mo- 
tive influenced the other members of 
the Commission. 

Second Assistant Warden. 

Mr. Goodfellow here doubtless re- 
fers to the appointment of Mr. T. B. 
Findley as Third Warden, inside Rusk 
Prison, which occured July 1, 1911. 
You are already sufficient familiar 
with the persistent enmity of Mr. 
Goodfellow to Mr. Findlev. Mr. Find- 
ley was not an extra man, as the du- 
ties performed were necessary and 
have always been performed by sorre 
one, and he only received practically 
a guard's salary of forty dollars per 
month. 

Bookkeeper. 

It is true that Mr. Walton was elect- 
ed by the Commission May 17, 1911, 
as bookkeeper at $100.00 per month 
This position had not been without 
difficulty to the Commission and the 
Commission deemed it wise to increase 
the salary to $100.00 per month, which 
it had been for many ye^rs. We be- 
lieved it would be for thp good of the 
service to have Mr. Walton fill the 
place and he was already receiving 
this amount at Huntsville. We could 
not consistently ask him to make the 
change for less. The compensation 
is even now barely adequate to pay 
i competent man. The former trouble 
n this department has entirely disa- 
red. 

State Residences. 

Here we come to a matter which 
more nearly concerns some one's 
misconduct. These complaints might 
be passed over with the statement 
tha* it has been the professed policy 
of the S^.ate not to employ convicts 



402 



Report and Findings of 



in competition with free labor. If 
this policy is sound, then the cobt 
of carrying it out is not a just ground 
of criticism against the State's offi- 
cers. But this ground of public policy 
was not the immediate cause of using 
free labor, as in view of the harsh 
necessities of the system, economy 
might have induced the Commission 
to have used convict labor, had it not 
been for Mr. Goodfellow's personal 
assurance that there were no car- 
penters, painters or paper hangers ui 
the Rusk Prison; and the Commissior, 
too trustingly perhaps, believed him. 
The time of the prisoners would have 
been withdrawn from other employ- 
ment, even if men capable of doing 
the work cculd have been found "n 
the prison, so that after all, the oniy 
loss that could be considered would 
be the difference in the value of their 
time at the regular employment, at 
which they were experienced, and 
the value of their time at work a* 
which they were inexperienced. This 
loss, if any, is entirely too uncertain 
to speculate about, even if Mr. Good- 
fellow had given sufficient facts as 
a ground-work to base speculation 
upon. 

Ginning Cotton. 

On the opposite side of the State 
farm from Rusk, a negro, by the name 
of Battle, had a small gin, which gins 
on an average of about 125 to 150 bales 
of cotton a season. Mr Goodfellow 
had begun to have the State's cotton 
ginned at this gin. His action 
aroused a great deal of adverse criti- 
cism at Rusk, among your friends and 
others. In some instances this criti- 
cism amounted to a suspicion of the 
motive for having the ginning done 
there. In any event, there was a 
better gin situated in the town of Ruski 
run by Mr. J. T. Pryor, one of the 
most responsible and reputable citi- 
zens of the county, and who was like- 
wise a considerable customer of the 
State. These facts were called to the 
attention of the other Commissioner b 
and they agreed with me that Mr. Pryor 
should do the ginning. I accordingly 
instructed Mr. Goodfellow to have Mr. 
Pryor do the ginning. The details 
of making the arrangements with Mr. 
Pryor, of course, being left entire 1 }* 
with Mr. Goodfeilow. The complaint 
of additional expense in hauling is 
unfounded, as the cotton and seed 
had to be hauled to Rusk for saI-3, 
even if ginned by the negro. 

Mr. Goodfellow is equally unable to 
make accurate statement of facts m 



connection with chis, as he is in other 
matters. He says "had the negro done 
the ginning at 60c per hundred 
pounds". The accompanying copy of 
original voucher shows the price to 
have been 65c oer hundred; or an 
average of $3.46 per bale for the 17 
bales (instead of 20) At the price 
received for the cotton giuned by Mr. 
Pryor the 1-15 amounted to $3.20 per 
bale, Mr. Pryor getting the seed out 
of the toll, which at the value of 
common seed, would have made prob- 
ably a few cents per bale in favor of 
the other gin, not exceeding 25 cen:s 
per bale. As to the failure to keep 
the cotton or seed separated from 
other cotton and seed, if this had been 
done it would have been wholly Mr. 
Goodfellow's fault. But the statement 
is absolutely untrue, as is shown by 
the accompanying affidavit of Mr. Pry- 
or. In addition to this, if the State lost 
anything by reason of the extra value 
of the seed it was, as shown by Mr. 
Pryor's affidavit the fault of Mr, 
Goodfellow as same were separated 
and reserved for the State at the same 
price as common seed, and Mr. Pryor's 
statement shows that he offered Mr. 
Goodfellow his toll seed at the price 
of common seed. I respectfully refer 
you to the enclosed copies of the 
minutes, showing my authority for 
my acts, and further that Mr. Good- 
fellow never at any time made any 
complaint or protest against the mat- 
ters of which he now complains. 

. Isaiah Battle (negro) ginned 17 B-C, 
net weight 9057 lbs., at 65c, $58.86, a 
cost of $3.46 per bale. 

J. T. Pryor ginned 61 B-C, for which 
he charged the fifteenth which averag- 
ed $49.70, or $3.20 per bale for 
ginning, adding 2 bushels ■ of seed 
at 25c, making a total of $3.70, less 
$3.46 charged by negro, leaves 24 
cents in favor of negro's ginning. 

Mr. Pryor's gin is an up-to-date gin, 
with all imodern improvements, and in 
300 yards of cotton yard, and maJe 
a much better sample than negro's 
gin, which is an old dilnpidated out- 
fit and is 5 miles from Rusk. 

I have endeavored to be temperate 
in statement herein made, out of 
respect to you, and' have indulged in 
no recriminations fcr the purpose of 
criticising Mr. Goodfellow, but have 
confined myself as faithfully as 1 
could to such statements only as would 
enable you to understand the facts. 

In preferring Mr. Pryor's gin, I was 
only doing for the State what I would 
have done, under the same circum- 






Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



403 



stances, had my own interests been 
involved, and what the great majority 
of the white citizens of the neighbor- 
hood of the negro gin did. 

Very truly yours, 
(Signed) LOUIS W. TITTLE, 
Prison Commissioner. 
LWT. 

THE STATE OF TEXAS, 
COUNTY OF CHEROKEE 

I, James T. Pry or, having been duty 
sworn, on oath depose and say thai 
I am the sole owner ar>d proprietor 
of a certain mill and gin situated in 
the town of Rusk, Texas, and that I 
ginned, during the Season of 1911-12, 
something like forty or fifty bales of 
cotton for the State of Texas; this 
ginning was done at my usual charge 
for such work, 1-15 of the seed cotton; 
at the time the ginning was arranged 
for with Mr. Robert Goodfellow, 
Warden at the Rusk Penitentiary, and 
I told Mr. Goodfellow that I would 
keep the seed seperated, not only for 
the State's portion of the cotton, but 
for mine; and it was agreed with Mr. 
Goodfellow at tha r time that he could 
have, if he wanted them, for the 
State, all the seed out of the toll cot- 
ton at the prevailing market price for 
common ordinary seed sold for com- 
mercial purposes at Rusk, and in ginn- 
ing said cotton I kept the seed of the 
toll cotton as well as the seed of the 
State's portion of the cotton separated 
from common seed; but Mr. Goodfel- 
low never called for said seed out of 
the toll, and subsequently, not be- 
lieving that the State desired the seed 

?old the same at forty cents per 
bushel; when all the ginning was a- 
bout done. Mr. Goodfellow tlephoned 
me to tell all my customers that ail 
the seed which the State had was for 
sale at fifty cents per bushel. 

Done at Rusk, Texas, this the 13ta 
day of April, A. D. 1912. 

J. T. PRYOR 

Subscribed and sworn to before me 
this the 13th day of April, 1912, E. D. 
Spinks, Coitnty Clerk in and for Che- 
rokee County, Texas. 

By E. C. SHERMAN, Deputy. (Seal) 

OFFICE OF 

BOARD OF PRISON COMMISIONERS 

HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS. 

April 20, 1912 
Hon. L. W. Tittle, 

Finance Commissioner. 
Dear Sir: — 

In compliance with y'bur request for 
copies of certain minutes of the Board 



of Prison Commissioners, I quote sainr* 
below which are self-explanatory: 

"Upon motion, duly seconded and 
adopted, it was ordered that Pet* 
Walton be appointed bookkeeper al- 
Rusk Prison at a salaly of $100.00 per 
month". (May 17, 1911, Com. Cabell, 
Tittle and Brahan present). 

"Upon recommendation of Chairman 
Cabell, instructions were given to 
Comimissoner Tittle to proceed to Rusk 
and have complete inventory of all 
State property belonging to the Peni- 
tentiary System at that place compiled 
and that he be authorized to appoint 
a competent man to make estimate as 
to cost of repairs on State houses at 
that place and that he make report o* 
same to the* Commission". (Meeting 
21-11. All members present). 

"Upon motion, duly seconded and 
adopted, J. H. Meeks of the N. A. 
Shaw force was elected assistant 
warden of the Rusk penitentiary, at a 
salary of $100.00 per month, effective 
from date of his relief from the duties 
at the N. A. Shaw farm". (July 3, 
1911, All members present). 

"Upon motion, duly seconded and 
adopted, J. T. Cameron, was elected 
steward at the Rusk Prison at a saia- 
ry of $50.00 per month". (July 21, 1911, 
Com. Tittle and Brahan present.) 

"A motion was made, duly seconded 
and carried, wherein it was ordered 
that the same officers be created for 
Rusk Prison as at Huntsville Prison 
whenever the necessity for same 
existed. At this time the following 
officers are created, at the salaries 
named, to-wit: 

Warden $150 per mo. and res. 

Second Warden $75 per mo. and re*. 

Physician, $85 ~>er mo. and res. 

Chaplain, 50 per mo. and res. 

Steward, 50 per mo. and res. 

Bookkeeper, $75 per mo. and res. 

(Meeting 1-26-11. All members 
present. 

"The first business to come before 
the Commission was the consideration 
of the case of T. B. Findley, who had 
been suspended as steward at Rusk, 
on account of his name appearing on 
the list of discharged guards. Upon 
investigation the Commission fourd 
that Mr. Findley has since 1900—1902 
worked at various points in the prison 
system without objection and without 
any charges against him, whereupon 
a motion was r.iade, duly seconded 
and carried, removing T. B. Findlev's 
name from the blacklist nnd continu- 
ing him in the prison service." (Meet- 
in 4-17-11, all members present). 



404 



Report and Findings of 



"The naming of appointees of the 
Penitentiary System was then taken 
up and the following appointments 
made: 

"T. B. Findley, second warden, Rusk 
Prison". (Meeting 2-14-11. All com- 
missioners present). 

"On motion, duly made, seconded 
and adopted, it was ordered that the 
position of farm manager at Rusk 
be abolished and that due notice oi 
the action of the Commission in this 
respect be given to Warden Goodf el- 
low, and advising that the Commission 
would expect Warden Gcodfellow to 
look after the duries of caid position 
personally;". (Meeting 5-4-11. All 
commissioners present). 

"Upon motion of Commissioner 
Brahan, T. B. Findley was elected 
third warden, inside Rusk Prison, at 
a salary of $40.00 per month, effective 
July 1, 1911". (Meeting July 1, 1911. 
Com. Brahan and Tittle present). 

The minutes do not show when T. 
B. Findley was appointed farm man- 
ager at salary of $75.00 per month. 
You will note he was appointed assist- 
ant warden at Rusk on February 14, 
1911, at salary of $75.00 per month. 

I am unable to find any correspond- 
ence in our files wherein former ward- 
en Goofellow protests against the ap- 
pointment of any one as a matter of 
economy or suggests the abolishment 
of any position. Mr. Findley was re- 
moved as farm manager at Mr. Gooc 
fellow's suasrestion, but T understand 
^ was done on account of friction 
between the two. 

r remember, also, that during some 
time last fall while the Commission 
was in session, you had occasion to 
talk to Mr. Goodfellow over 'phone 
and in the course of the conversation 
you suggested that he change gins 
and that this was done with the know- 
ledge and consent of the Commissio- 
ners Brahan and Cabell, and with their 
acquiescence. 

With reference to the matter of re 
pairing State Houses at Rusk, I fa 1 
to find any order authorizing you to 
have these repairs made, although J 
understand such an order was passed 
by the Commission, but that was be- 
fore by connection with the System. 
Yours truly, 
(Signed) J. E. STUBBLEFIELD, 

Assistant Secretary. 
.EXTRACTS FROM MINUTES OF 
THE BOARD OF PRISON COM- 
MISSIONERS. 
"It was moved, duly seconded and 
carried, that Commissonor Tittle be 



authorized to employ two or three 
citizen carpenters to cover State re- 
sidences at Rusk, convict helpers to 
be furnished by Warden Goodfellow." 
(3-6-11) 

"Upon motion, duly seconded and 
adopted, it was ordered that Commis- 
sioner Tittle be authorized to maky 
contract for the painting of residences 
at Rusk." (7-31-11.) 

Rusk, Texas, 1-30-12. 
Sgt. Jno. W. McKinney, 

Fowler, Texas, 

In Account with 

Texas State Penitetiaries. 

191 Sacks Cotton Seed 503 

bu. at .50 ' $251.00 

Pre Pay Freight 35.00 



$286.00 
(There has been no cotton seed sold 
for more than 50 cents per bushel frcn 
last year's crop). 

THE TEXAS STATE PENITEN- 
TIARIES, To Isaiah Battle, Dr., Rusk, 
Texas, 1912, Duplicate. 
10-26-11. To Ginning 17 

B-C 9057 at 65c $58.86 

Approved, Oct. 26'1911, 

LOUIS W. TITTLE, 
Prison Commissoner, 
Per J. C. HAYNES, 

Chief Clerk. 

Total $58.86 

Rusk Prison. Endorsements: 

ORIGINAL. Vouche- No 

Isaiah Battle, $58.86, month of October, 
1911. Received, Huntsville, Texas, this 
26th day of October, 1911, of Louis W. 
Tittle, Prison Commissioner Texas 
State Penitentiaries. Copy. Fifty 
Eight Dollars and 86-100 cents, in full 
of the witnin account.' (Signed \v- 

Duplicate) Isaiah Battle, Approved ■ 

Duplicate. Voucher No. Isaiah 

Battle, $58.86, Month of October, 1911. 
Received, Huntsville Texas, this 26th 
day of October, 1911 of Louis W. Tittle, 
Prison Commissioner Texas State 
Penitentiaries. Copy. Fifty Eight and 
86-100 cents, in full of the within ac- 
count. (Signed in Duplicate) Isaiah 

Battle. Approved . 

(Here follows letter of Robert Good- 
fellow to Governor Colquitt, which is 
hereinbefore set out.) 



TUESDAY, JULY 8th, 1913, AUS- 
TIN, TEXAS, OFFICE OF SEC- 
RETARY OF SENATE. 
Mr. John M. Moore, being questioned 

testified as follows: 

There is not statements that I have 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



405 



to make to the committee as far as 
that is concerned. 

By senator John G. Willacy, 
Q. — Mr. Moore, you are auditor of 
the penitentiary system? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Mr. Moore, you have heen with 
the committee on its rounds? 
A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Of course, you know that we aie 
trying to discover the reason why tiie 
penitentiary system is so much in 
debt and to try tc gather information 
so that we may make some recommen- 
dations as to a change of policy in or- 
der to place it on a better financial 
basis, and you being auditor of the 
system of course become familiar 
with practically every branch of the 
system and we feel that you are in a 
position to give the committee some 
very useful advice. Of course we 
do not forget that you have been 
working in your particular line and 
that you might have been more fami- 
liar had you been working longer with 
the system, but you in your position- 
deal with matters in detail which the 
committee has been unable to do and 
would be unable to do except that ii 
could devote considerable time which 
we have not at our disposal at this 
time. You were with the committee 
and of course understand the 'general 
plan of its examinations and under- 
stand in a general way that infor- 
mation has been ascertained by oui 
examination. Is there any suggestior: 
that you have to make to the oonti- 
mittee in order that you may aid tae 
work of the committee? 

Q. — Well, Senator I have already 
filed a written recommendation or re 
commendations with the committee 
which set out fully practically all tae 
suggestions and recommendations J 
have to make. I could go into details 
if you so desire. But J have filed the 
written recommendations as I said. 
Q.— When did you file them? 
A. — At Huntsville. 
Q. — Do they cover the grounds gen- 
erally from your standpoint? 

A. — Yes, sir, its just a general state- 
ment. Notning specific ; only general 
I just called your attention to such 
matters as 1 thought should be recti- 
fied. 

Q. — If you have any practical points 
that would be useful to the committer 
and would aid the committee in our 
work, we would be glad to have them. 
A. — For the purpose of getting it 
into the record, I would suggest th 



the lands now owned by the state, op- 
tions on some of which is held by the 
Prison Commission, but tnat they S3- 
cure lands separate and set apart 
from the lands now held and that a 
central location be obtained. 

Q. — What location would you sug- 
gest? 

A. — Well, Columbia is a good one. 
Where raw land sells for eighteen tu 
twenty-five dollars per acre. The 
character of land is practically the 
same as that held by the state. 
Q. — Is it not subject to overflow? 
A. — About the same as lands now 
held so I am told. I don't know. Some 
of these lands arc in cultivation and 
some are in timber. That can be had 
at a price from eighteen to twenty- 
five dollars per acre. I will state that 
I believe practically all lands held op- 
tional and under contract are held at 
too high a price. 

Q. — I will state that I believe thsi 
committee are all of that opinion, un 
animously. Certainly the committee 
will not make any recomn endation for 
the purchase of land that we believe is 
overvalued. Nor the purchase of any 
lands whatever no matter what the 
price is unless we deal with the 
owner. 

A. — I consider it against the State's 
policy to lease land from any one and 
make improvements on it and ditch it 
and put other land? intc cultivation 
and make land worth twenty-five dol 
iars per acre increase to fifty dollaro 
by reason of the exertions of the 
State, the improvements the State 
makes on it. And then they hold 
an option on it at over that price. 
When the State itself raised the price 
of the land. It is not business policy. 
There is not a single piece of land 
that I know of today that is not worth 
decidedly more than when the State 
took hold of it. 

Q. — The State holds eight thousand 
acres of land that is not cleared, does 
she not? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Don't you think it would be wise 
business policy for the State to clear 
its own land and put it in cultivation 
before it purchases any more land? 

A.— Yes, I think that is decidedly 
correct. I think it will take five to 
six years to get its own lands in 
farms. 

Q. — You are familiar with our peni 
tentiary farms? 
A. — Yes sir, I have been over every 



no more lands be bought adjacent to | one of them. 



406 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — Are you familiar with the com- 
munities? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you find that the demonstra- 
tions of these several State farms is 
more or less handicapped by local 
sentiment? 

A. — Yes, £ir, I think so. There U 
no question about that. 

Q. — 'Don't you think it would be tc 
the State's interest to absolutely di- 
vorce itself from any private business 
whatever? 

A. — Yes, sir, I do. It should be 
handled along the time that any corpo- 
oration would handle its business 
The trouble is our farms and our in- 
terests get too much under the in- 
fluence of iocal interests, which is at 
times very much against the State's 
interests. 

Q. — Do you think it would be hari 
to get them from under this influence? 

A. — I should not think it would be 
hard to get them from under that 
influence if you would change loca- 
tions, or localities. 

Q. — Unless our prisor operational 
could be taken from under the pre- 
judicial influences of local communi- 
ties, don't you think unless that is 
done, we had better hunt a new loca 
tion, where there is not this local in 
fluence. 

A. — Gentlemen, I want to go on -rec- 
ord as strongly in favor of brand new 
location. I think it is necessary and 
I believe we can purchase a new cen- 
tral location by selling what we have 
and putting the money in this loca- 
tion. 

q. — Have you been in touch wila 
the situation? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Have you heard or do you know 
of any irregularities on any of the 
farms that has not been at this time 
brought to this committee? 

A. — I would prefer to be excused from 
disclosing these matters that have been 
passed to me by the Governor. They 
are now under investigation and tha 
investigation is not complete. I wili 
in a short time have completed my 
investigation and will have filed a 
report and all of the facts with the 
Governor upon the matter. I would 
suggest that the committee take this 
matter up through the Governor. 1 
don't object to stating it to the com- 
mittee and I don't want the committee 
to think I am in contempt, in not 
disclosing these matters, but to dis- 
close them at this time would be fatal 



to the investigation if made public 
at this time. 

Q. — Do we understand you to say if 
you disclose these irregularities to 
which you refer to the committee at 
this time and which would necessarily 
have publicity especially not later than 
the special session of the Legislature, 
do we understand in your judgement 
should you make these disclosures ai 
this time it would be against the best 
interests of the State and that others 
would take advantage of that publicity 
as against the State's best interest. 

A. — Well, yes sir, that is practically 
correct. It is not for the best in- 
terests of the State to disclose it at 
this time. 

Q. — In other words, in your opinion, 
the best interests of this investigation 
would be defeated? 

A. — Yes, sir. The Governor agrees 
with me in this case. 

Senator Willacy makes the following 
statement. 

I think, Mr. Chairman, what we 
want is the facts in regard to the 
prison system and inasmuch as the 
Governor and Mr. Moore feel that 
the very purpose of the investigation 
would be defeated if this matter is 
brought out at this time, I think u 
is proper to let the matters rest until 
they have made a full investigation 
and than we can make a further in- 
vestigation. 

Mr. L. Tillotson makes statement. 

Since the matter has been brought 
out as it is, I would suggest that the 
Chairman communicate with the Gov- 
ernor asking him that in view of the 
matter being brought to the committee 
at this time and he knowing the scope 
of the authority of he committee under 
the resolution, that if in his judgment 
there is anything concerning our in- 
quiry, he furnish us with such facts 
as he may think will be of assistance 
to us. 

Governor Mayes makes this state- 
ment: 

You suggest that we communicate 
with the Governor and see if he feeis 
that there is anything this committee 
ought to do in this matter at this 
time. 

Mr. Moore makes the following sta- 
tement: 

I would say this, if this committee 
thinks it would undertake this matter 
I will retire from the matter and let 
them have it. I will turn over what 
I have. You will understand that It 
will have to be done by an executive 
committee. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



407 



Governor Mayes interrogates Mr. 
Moore: 

Q. — When will you have your work 
completed? 

A. — About the first of next week. 

Mr. Humphreys interrogates M\ 
xVEoore : 

Q. — Mr. Moore, would it have any 
rearing on the penitentiary finances? 

A. — I think not. 

Mr. Humphreys makes this state- 
ment: 

If it is a mere matter of delinquency 
or anything of that kind, then it is not 
the committee's business. I don't 
think we ought to look into it any- 
how. 

Governor Mayes makes the follow- 
ing statement: 

A matter of that kind comes clearly 
within the scope of our investigations, 
however, I think we ought not to go 
into these matters in a way that wouid 
cripple or defeat the work of Mr. 
Moore or the commission or the Gov- 
ernor. 

Mr. Humphreys makes this stafca 
ment: 

I don't want to be misunderstood 
hut the laws provide for the punish- 
ment of criminals and if any guard or 
employees of the system have been 
guilty of anything of that kind, our 
time is limited and we Laven't time 
to take up matters of that kind, and 
if not the subject of our investiga- 
tion, it does not concern the finances 
of the penitentiary system of course 
if the Governor thinks it should De 
submitted to us, we can look into it. 

Governor Mayes makes the following 
statement: 

I think it is within the purview of 
this resolution under which we are 
acting to enter into this matter, bu' 
at the same time Mr. Moore ha.- 
stated that he being familiar with the 
subject matter of the investigation 
that he is conducting that it is alto- 
gether possible that any inquiry that 
we make of it at this time, would in 
all probability defeat the best inter- 
ests of the state in the premises, I 
could suggest that we pass the matter 
over and let Mr. Moore and the Gov- 
ernor prosecute it to its conclusion. 

Mr. Moore states: 

I would suggest that the investiga 
tion be conducted either by myself en- 
tirely and my imperfect organization, 
or left entirely to the Investigating 
committee. I would be glad to turn 
you all the statements, papers, e*-c 
but I want you to appoint a sub-corr- 



mittee and let it be an executive com- 
mittee. 

Governor Mayes: 

You realize our time is short. You 
have started the investigation and it 
being in a few days of completion and 
it being probable that we can get the 
result of this investigation by Monday, 
it occurs to me that we should hurry 
that investigation as much as possible. 

Mr. Tillotson moves that the Chair 
be instructed to communicate with the 
Governor and ask the Governor if this 
investigation by the Governor' and Mr. 
Moore in his opinion would throw 
any light on the matters investigatec 1 
by this committee that the committee 
have advantage of it. Motion adop- 
ted. 

Mr. Moore made the following sta- 
tement: 

May I have spread on the record 
that the investigation of tihs matter 
of which I have spoken was starte.i 
by me on the suggestion of the Gov- 
ernor and on plans outlined by him. 
I have given nothing to the investiga 
tion committee in regard to the mat- 
ter. 

Senator Willacy: 

Q. — Would you mind to tell us abovt 
when you first got the suggestion of 
this irregularity? 

A. — In a letter from the Governor 
under date June 2nd. 

Governor Mayes: 

Q. — Mr. Moore, while we were mak- 
ing our investigation at Hunts vilte 
you told us of some irregularities in 
regard to the purchase of tickets at 
Richmond, have you discovered any- 
thing definitely with reference to 
these irregularities there that would 
help us. 

A. — Well, no, I don't know of any- 
thing that would be of advantage to 
the committee. I have some informa- 
tion. 

Q. — Will that information be in your 
report to the Governor? 

A. — Yes, sir, while it does not refer 
to it, but it will be in my report t<» 
the Governor. 

Q. — Will lie let us have that report? 

A. — I suppose he will give it to you 

Q. — As the auditor of the Prison 
System, Mr. Moore are ycu in a posi 
tion to tell this r ommittee the exa'*t 
amount of indebtedness of the Prison 
System ? 

A. — I am not. there wil) be a state- 
ment out that I am havi ig made, for 
the Governor and it will soon be o* t 
and T will be able to furnish you state- 
ment showing amount at that time. 



408 



Eepobt and Findings of 



Q. — Are you prepared to show the 
amount of the entire indebtedness Oj. 
the entire Prison System? 

A. — No, sir. I am making a valua 
tion of what the books show? 

Q. — Then your statement will fur- 
nish the information as to how much 
money had been received by the Pri- 
son System from all sources? 

A. — Yes, sir. It will have a state- 
ment of this up to July 1st of eacV> 
year. It will show statement up fcc 
July 1st. 

Q. — (Knowing ihe purpose of the 
committee Mr. Moore, do you know 
of anything else that would be of 
value to the committee? 

A. — No, sir; except the matter we 
talked about a little while ago. ! 
would like to say that I think the 
greatest need of the Prison System 
is firm rules in its management of the 
conduct of its prisoners. 1 would 
like to see the ^mployeei take more 
interest in Prison management and if 
they studied the best methods of se- 
curing good discipline as much as they 
do trying to get the bat back, the sys- 
tem would be much better off. All prob- 
lems would long since have solved 
themselves. 

Q. — I understand from that that a 
great many of the employees of the 
Prison System are not in sympathy 
with the present law? 

A. — That's been my line of testimony 
before the committee. I believe the 
greatest fault is the lack of discipline, 
and probably the greatest fault is the 
lack of segregation of the first, second 
and third grade prisoners. I think 
it is to the best interests of the Sta:e 
of Texas that a man that is in the 
third grade and remains there for a 
certain length of time that he should 
be sterilized to keep him from propa- 
gating his kind. I think we should 
get men out of the third grade. It 
may take some little time, but you will 
finally succeed. I want to say that 
the bat has its usefullness and that 
consists in making every man a cow- 
ard, if you rule men through cowardice, 
I don't believe that you will ever 
make men out of them. 

Q. — Mr. Moore, have you mad± any 
effort to figure up the approximate 
costs and of our convicts in the several 
departments of t'ie Prison System? 

A. — I have not, but there is a report 
made out monthly by the statistical 
clerk which is shown in the reports 
and while it is not absolutely correct 
and is only reasonably correct but is 
of service. 



Q. — What about the costs of cloth- 
ing and other manufactures articles, 
have you a record of them? 

A. — There is a system of figuring 
the cost of clothing and I submitted 
to six firms the very best manufact- 
ures of overalls for their prices . and 
was unable to get a price that would 
compete with our factory prices. I 
asked for prices on a vears S'ipply. 
They stated almost uniformly that the 
Prison System can and is manufact- 
uring ther line of clothing twenty-five 
per cent cheaper than they can un- 
dertake it. Of course T asked for 
prices on a cash basis and cash dis- 
count. I have failed to find a firm 
that is doing the work that is being 
done in the prison system. I sen* 
one line to the penitentiary in Jeffer- 
son Missouri, as they there manufac- 
ture a line of clothing but I have not 
heard from them yet. 

Mr. Tillotson interrogates Mr. Moore. 
Q. — Mr. Moore, can you buy better 
land in Texas than that owned by the 
State? 
A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Can you buy cleared land of a 
quality as good as that the State now 
owns for what you can get for the 
State's lands? 

A. — I think so. I think it should 
be done. I wish to say that I have nc 
location in view cither. 

Q. — You state that you believe in 
moving the prison system from under 
local influence. What do you mean 
by local influence? 

A. — Well, it is a hard thing to de- 
fine. I think practically every com- 
munity expects more from the prison 
system and its industries than they 
are willing to give to it. 
Mr. Humphreys: 

Q. — If this local influence you com 
plain of exists as you state and it is 
injurious in its effects and you move 
the penitentiary system, will not it 
grow up? 

A. — If pandered to as in the past 
around our present locations. 

Q. — In what way has it been pan- 
dered to? 

A. — In many ways, gentlemen. I 
would not state anything particularly 
specific. I mean in general terms. 
These localities are expecting or look- 
ing for more than they are willing 
to give to it. 

Q. — Would not this condition arise 
in other localities? 

A. — If we panJered to them. Then 
there is a question of personal element 
in the management. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



409 



Q. — You speak of clearing the State's 
lands about eight thousand acres, be- 
fore purchasing any more. In the 
testimony it is shown that we leased 
about eighteen thousand acres of 
land. If we clear this eight thousand 
acres and did not receive any more 
work of our convicts than we get now 
we will have to Lease about ten thou- 
sand acres or buy more. 

A. — I am absolutely against the 
leasing of it. I can give you a speci- 
fic idea regarding that matter. We 
have a lease made this year on th.3 
Patterson tract of eleven hundred 
acres in cultivation. Two years ago 
there was about seven hundred fifty 
acres in cultivation. The state has 
cleared absolutely at its expense the 
three hundred fifty acres that have 



and Mr. Milwee received it. He is 
the stenographer in the office at, 
Huntsville and he had instructions to 
O K the biils when I was out and he 
turned this one down and I refused to 
approve it, and stated my objection to 
it for the reason that there was no 
explanation with the account. I stated 
that I would not pay fifty dollars wheu 
private parties were having the same 
work done for twenty-five dollars. I 
had never heard of it being more than 
that except where the arterial circula- 
tion was broken down. Mr. Tittle 
made an explanation to the commission 
and stated that a negro had died and 
the railroad would not take the body 
until it was embalmed and that the 
charges for the embalming were that 
amount and that they h?.d instructed 
been put in during the last year. Thev jthe embalmer to go ahead. After that 
have cleared it for the wood. It explanation it would have been ap- 



they had purchased the land two 
years ago they would have had a 
valuable piece of property. 

Q. — Mr. Moore, if the prison system 
can clear other land for the wood on 
it, could it not char its own land for 
the wood on it? 

A. — I think that is so. That land on 
the Ramsey farm ought to be cleared. 
You can attribute that to local in- 
fluence. I believe the testimony 
shows that it costs twenty to twenty 
five dollar per acre to clear land ana 
we are today leasing land, and paying 
money rent for it. 
Mr. Humphreys: 

Q. — You say you are opposed to 
leasing land. Would you recommend 
the purchase of more land where the 
state farms are now? 

A. — All in one central locality one 
body for the convenience it should fc^ 
put in one locality. 
Q. — Where would you buy? 
A. — Where I could buy the best land 
for the lease money. 

Q. — Do you know of any other place 
in Texas except in this lower Brazos 
^alley? where farm land can be bough i 
in large quantities? 

A. — I don't think there is any place 
on earth where they have got any 
more fertile land than this Brazos 
bottoms. 

Q. — Would you mind to tell us about 
some contracts for embalming that 
you had something to do with some 
time ago? 

A'.— Well, the State had been paying 
a uniform price of fifty dollars for 
each body That was embalmed. I had 
approved one or two at that price. So 
when the next bill came in I was out 



proved. I would have approved it for 
it was then a contract and the mere 
matter of the state carrying out is 
contract. 

A. — Who is Mr. Milwee? 
A. — He is a stenographer there in 
the building, he refused to pay it. It 
is in the files without my approval, it 
would have been approved. It ha* 
been paid. I merely investigated and 
found the irregularity and found that 
they received twenty-five dollars f r 
the work and $2.25 to pay railroad faie 
to Houston. They would telephone to 
Houston and have a man come out and 
do the work. And the firm at Rich- 
mond would make clear money in tha 
transaction $22.25 and have this work 
brokered out. This is local in- 
fluence gentlemen. I immediately di- 
rected a letter to them in which J 
stated to them I thought it sound 
business for them to require tha - 
other undertakers be invited to do the 
State work. I produced a bid from 
outside parties for twenty five dollars 
and caused it to be forwarded in. 
That work is now costing the stale 
twenty dollars for each case of em- 
balming. 

Mr. Humpreys: 

There has been a good deal of talk 
in Texas that there has been too 
much politics in connection with the 
penitentiary system, — now some of us 
don't agree with that idea, but I would 
like to ask you by whom were you 
appointed to your present position? 

A. — I was elected by general Looney, 
Comptroller Lane and Treasurer Ed- 
wards. 

Q. — By a board composed of the 



410 



Report and Findings of 



Attorney General, Treasurer and 
Comptroller. 

A. — I am told it was a unanimous 
election. 

Q. — Were there other applicants? 

A. — There were others so I am tola. 

Mr. Diffie interrogates the witness: 

Q. — I see that the report for 1911 
shows the number of acres per man 
and per mule and for the year 1913 
the report shows the nurrber of acres 
per man and per mule and convict. 
I want to know if we can get this i.\ 
formation for the year 1912? 

A. — I suppose you have that infor- 
mation. 

Gov. Mayes states: We have the re- 
port for 1912 made at our request up 
to May 1st 1913. 



JULY 1, 1913. 

Senator Willacy made the follow- 
ing" motion: 

Mr. Chairman: I move that the 
Penitentiary Commission be request- 
ed to bring the minute books of the 
Commission before this committee. 
Was duly seconded and carried. 

Mr. Humphreys moves that Com- 
mittee adjourn until 3 o'clock p. m., 
which motion prevailed. 



AFTERNOON TUESDAY, JULY 1, 
A. D., 1913, at 3:00 P. M., IN OF- 
FICE OF SECRETARY OF 
STATE SENATE. 

Lieutenant Governor Will H. Mayes 
presiding. 

Governor Mayes stated that he had 
a letter from Mr. Brahan in answer 
to a request of the Committee that 
he hand over a statement of what it 
would take to make the system in 
first-class condition. 

Senator Willacy stated as follows: 
Mr. Eldridge states that he will 
make a proposition for the State's 
cane and it is the duty of the Com- 
mission to get the best price possi- 
ble for its cane. I think Mr. Eld- 
ridge would have a perfect right to 
make a price or anybody else as for 
that. Mr. Eldridge makes statement 
as follows: I will submit a written 
bid for it when I get home, if the 
Commission will consider it. I will 
make a written proposition and will 
send you a copy of it. 

Mr. Willacy interrogates Mr. Bra- 
han: 

Q. — Well, Mr. Brahan, you were 



with the Committee on its rounds for 
several days past? You have under 
your direct charge the farming inter- 
ests of the State. We would like to 
have you in your own way to take up 
the matters we have under investi- 
gation and just tell the Committee 
in your own way. 

Brahan. — I'll state that Governor 
Mayes wrote that the Committee 
would meet here and that the Com- 
mission would be asked to come be- 
fore it. The discussion just now 
seems to be in regard to the raising 
of cane. I think the State ought to 
raise a certain amount of cane as 
long as the present conditions exist, 
especially on these lower properties. 
I think this would be better than cot- 
ton or corn. If you put it all in cot- 
ton or corn and make a failure, you 
have made nothing. Another condi- 
tion that confronts you is that about 
the middle of October you are 
through with picking cotton, every- 
thing is in good shape and you have 
time from October to spring time, 
the last of February or the first of 
March that you haven't much for 
your men to do, unless you had other 
things for them to do. 

Q. — Is it practical on the present 
farms to plow the land in the fall? 

A. — It is practical. As soon as 
we can pull the corn, we begin to 
plow with disk plows, we draw the 
corn stalks as soon as the corn is 
out and plow the ground. 

Q. — Don't you find that on land 
that you plow in the fall that your 
soil is in better condition to culti- 
vate and that it makes it much bet- 
ter? 

A.— Yes. 

Q. — Makes the crop better? 

A. — Yes; I think in cotton it adds 
about a third. Of course, it depends 
upon the farm. Now, you take the 
Ramsey farm, I don't believe it is 
as good property as the Sugar Land 
farm or other farms, hut it is good 
for potatoes and other things, and by 
having both cotton and corn on these 
farms you are sure of a crop, but 
if you have but one crop and make 
a failure, then it is a complete fail- 
ure. The weevils have given them 
considerable trouble also. 

Q. — Did they ever give any trouble 
except one year? 

A. — They kept it down for several 
years, for a number of years until 
they learned what kind of cotton to 
plant. The State gathered less than 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



411 



twelve bales of cotton off of twelve 
hundred acres of land one year. I 
have never seen a corn crop a total 
failure. If the State is going to 
raise cotton alone, I think the State 
has got her farms in the wrong place. 

Q. — You don't think they are not 
the best places for cotton and corn? 

A. — I don't think they are the best 
for cotton and corn. I think we are 
going to be able to develop a long 
staple cotton down there that will 
give those people more on their land. 

Q. — What is the total acres of cane 
now in? How many acres has the 
State? 

A. — In the Harlem farm the State 
owns thirty-eight hundred acres of 
land, four hundred and fifty in pas- 
ture. The Imperial place, I think the 
State has 5235 acres, of which about 
three hundred acres is pasture, about 
4900 acres in cultivation. On the 
Ramsey place the State owns 7200 
acres of land. About thirty-one hun- 
dred or thirty-two hundred acres is 
in cultivation. In the Clemens place 
there is eighty-two hundred acres, 
of this there are about fifty-two 
hundred acres in cultivation. That's 
all the land the State owns down 
there. 

Q. — How many acres in all is that 
in cultivation? 

A. — Something like 16,550 acres 
in cultivation. 

Q. — Out of a total acreage of how 
much, about 25,000? 

A. — A total acreage of 34,435. 

Q. — How much land has the State 
under lease? 

A. — Forty-two hundred acres in 
Cherokee County. Maybe a few 
acres more. That's divided around 
over the county. There are about 
500 acres in cultivation. The prison 
site is on some of it. There are 2000 
acres in the woman's farm. One thou- 
sand acres in cultivation. 

Q. — How much in cultivation in 
Walker County? 

A. — I forget; something like a to- 
tal of 3100 acres. At Huntsville 
there is about 1500 acres in culti- 
vation. 

Q. — What is the total acreage, 
then, in cultivation? 

A. — It figures 18,050 acres. 

Q. — How much of this in cane? 

A. — About 1400 acres in cane on the 
Harlem farm, about 800 acres on the 
Imperial farm. There is 1150 acres on 
the Ramsey farm, 2250 acres on the 



Clemens farm. That figures up 5550 
out of a total of 16,550 down yonder. 

Q. — : What is your opinion about 
the State raising cotton and other 
crops — as to the best interests of the 
State ? 

A. — I will say this for diversified 
farming: I think you are in the best 
part of the State, but I believe if I 
was going to raise cotton by itself I 
would go somewhere else. 

Q. — Is it not a fact that many of 
the individual farmers down there 
are prosperous? 

A. — There are a great many in- 
dividual farmers down there that I 
think are prosperous. I think they 
have recovered from the boll weevil 
and I have seen some good cotton 
down there. The only trouble is 
that in December it might blow it 
out. 

Q. — What would be an average 
yield of cotton and corn on these 
farms? 
A. — I think about one-half bale of 
cotton in Fort Bend county, and 
thirty bushels of corn would be an 
average crop. 

Q. — Don't you think that by and 
through industrious cultivation they 
could increase this production? 

A. — I know it — I don't think any- 
thing about it. 

Q. — How many acres could a con- 
vict handle? 

A. — Do you mean a first class 
convict? 

Q. — An average convict? 

A. — I believe a first class man in 
first class physical condition and who 
knows how to work, can farm, (of 
course he can't gather it), he can 
handle I would say twenty acres. I 
don't think a man will gather that 
much. But you see you have your 
other crops; by this time you have 
harvested some of it and you can 
shift your men; you can have them 
help to do the gathering. Now a 
great many people have gotten an 
idea that a cane crop is a hard crop 
to cultivate; I think it is the easiest 
crop to grow up until the harvest. 
It is true that your tools for culti- 
vation are very heavy, and it re- 
quires good mules. A man ought to 
handle at least fifteen or sixteen 
acres of land. I think that would be 
about all a man could cultivate. 

Q. — The convicts now are not do- 
ing a large day's work? 

A. — A part of them are doing a 
day's work. Take them as a whole 



412 



Report and Findings of 



the men are doing very good work 
for the number of hours. It is cost- 
ing us a great deal to have our lands 
worked. I think it is costing us 
twenty-five or thirty dollars an acre 
to have our lands farmed. We figure 
that it runs about fifteen or two 
acres to the man. You see we have 
several classes of men when it comes 
to condition. We have first, second 
and third class men. We have twenty 
men in one place and there is not a 
man in this crowd that would feed 
those men for what they would do. 
We have got them to take care of 
and we have got them to feed. Aft- 
er this ten cent per diem law was 
passed they have performed reas- 
onable services. Of course, where 
you don't require them to do so, they 
don't do the best of service. 

Q. — Don't you believe we ought 
to amend the law so that a convict 
ought to do as much work as a free 
laborer? 

A. — I don't think there is any 
question about that. I don't know 
that the chaining up is any more 
effective than the bat, but I know 
that most of them fear the bat. 

Q. — What do you think of the 
success of the work? 

A. — I think we more than broke 
even last year, and if we could have 
gotten prices this year equal to what 
we got last year we would more than 
have broken even this year. 

Q. — Don't you think there is more 
possibility of making a better crop 
of cotton and corn? 

A. — I think you will have to get 
your land in better shape. 

Q. — Do you think there is as much 
money in grinding cane for raw sugar 
as there is in manufacturing syrup? 

A. — No, sir. 

Q. — Which is the less expensive, 
raw sugar or syrup? 

A. — Syrup. 

Q. — Are the most of the mills 
sugar mills, or are they combination 
mills? 

A. — I don't know of a mill that is 
purely a sugar mill. They can all 
make syrup or sugar. 

Q. — What would the machinery for 
a sugar mill or a syrup mill cost? 

A. — I don't know what the ma- 
chinery for a syrup mill or a sugar 
mill would cost. 

Interrogated by Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — Mr. Brahan, how much land 
has the Prison Commission had 
cleared? 



A. — We have had three hundred 
and twelve acres in what is known 
as the Caldwell place and about two 
hundred and fifty acres in another 
tract, a part of that belongs to the 
Smith brothers. 

Q. — What is that planted in? 
A. — Cotton and corn. We have 
sixty-nine acres in a hay meadow. 

Q. — Have you options on that 
land? 

A. — Yes, sir; at forty dollars per 
acre on some of it and fifty dollars 
on the other. One tract of this is 
Judge Masterson's land. We leased 
it from him. There are three hun- 
dred and twelve acres in cultivation, 
there is one thousand acres in the 
tract. The option that we have is at 
fifty dollars an acre. Around the 
Ramsey farm there are two tracts 
that belong to some heirs, but we 
have no option to buy that, but I 
think we can get it. None of that 
is cleared. There is another tract 
that is entirely surrounded by the 
Ramsey farm. We have an option to 
buy it at twenty-five dollars; this land 
is planted in corn. 

Q. — What other lands have you 
leased? 

A. — We have the Felix Jackson 
place, twenty-eight hundred acres in 
the tract and eleven or twelve hun- 
dred acres in cultivation; we pay 
twelve hundred dollars or one-fifth of 
the crop. 

Q. — -What do you get for clearing 
this land? 

A. — Any land that we clear we get 
two years for nothing for the clear- 
ing. 

Q. — What will it cost to clear the 
most of this land? 

A. — I would think that the lower 
part of it would cost about thirty 
dollars per acre to clear, the upper 
part about twenty or twenty-five dol- 
lars per acre. 

Q. — What was the cultivated land 
on that: place planted in? 

A. — Corn, cotton, cane and pota- 
toes, but mostly in corn. Some of 
the Ramsey farm belongs to Dr. 
Wright, of Galveston. I would not 
say what he gets for it. I think he 
gets five dollars per acre for it. There 
is a good deal of it that we give five 
dollars for. It was leased for the 
State and in cane when we took 
charge. On the north end of the 
property we leased some from Branch 
Masterson, of Galveston. I think it 
is about twelve hundred acres, we 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



413 



give him five dollars per acre. We 
have the use of his gin and syrup 
plant if we want it. 

Q. — In what condition is that syrup 
plant? 

A. — It is in fairly good condition. 

Q. — Have you an option on that? 

A. — The option holds on that. 

Q. — What do you think it would 
be worth? 

A. — I think four or five thousand 
dollars would he a fair price. We 
lease it at $5 per acre. It is right 
in the middle of the Masterson tract. 
We lease the Tramble place, about 
2100 acres. The next place is the 
House place. I think there is 7000 
or 8000 acres in that place. About 
3600 acres in cultivation. They fur- 
nish the mills, implements and 
everything. We did not run the 
sugar mill. 

Q. — I don't believe you stated the 
terms on which you leased that tract, 
the terms, and I did not understand 
you. Have you the privilege of buy- 
ing it whenever you lease? 

A. — Yes, sir. It is so stated. The 
next land that we leased is at the 
Imperial farm. There is about 
1997 acres. At the Harlem State 
farm we leased 1400 acres of land. 
At the Blakely place 3TuO acres, and 
in Red River and Bowie counties 
we have what is known as the Shaw 
place, 27 00 acres. We do not pay 
rent on any land except what we 
have in cultivation. That gives 
18,170 acres in cultivation. That's 
about right. That, together with 
what the State has makes a total of 
about 3 6,72 acres in cultivation. 

Q. — What per cent of this timber 
land that is not owned by the State 
in Fort- Bend and Brazos counties 
that is susceptible of cultivation? 

A. — Practically all of it. 

Q. — What would it cost ,to clear 
it and put it into cultivation? 

A. — I think clearing it and put- 
ting in proper shape would cost $30 
to $50 per acre. 

Q. — How long would it take a 
man to clear an acre of land. A 
month? 

A. — I believe he could. I believe 
he could clear about that. 

Q. — If instead of buying other 
acreage or leasing other acreage we 
could put our surplus land now 
owned by the State, which is approx- 
imately 8000 acres, suppose we put 
our surplus hands clearing our land, 
would we add value to our land and 



would we not give employment to 
other men? Say 8000 acres at fif- 
teen acres' to the man would employ 
533 convicts and the negroes and 
Mexicans are all able to clear land, 
are they not? 

A. — Yes, sir. But I don't believe 
that the white men coming from the 
northern part of the State to the 
farm down here would stand it; I 
don't think they would have any 
health. 

Q. — We have how many Mexicans? 

A. — About 400 Mexicans in the 
prison. 

Q. — The reason that you have 
leased land from other people is 
that you wanted and needed land 
to keep them employed? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Then, don't you think it 
j would have been better to clear our 
i land to use them — and clearing this 
I land would require the services of 
| these men and would give employ- 
ment to say 666 of our convicts for 
one year's time to clear that land? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Then it would give perma- 
nent employment to men to cultivate 
that land? 

A. — Yes, but one man can not 
clear an acre per month, because 
when your cane crop comes on you 
must shift all your surplus labor to 
the cane crop, and thus you have to 
take your men out of the shops and 
factories to the cane crop and to 
gather the cottcn. So that at this 
season of the year, during the cane 
season, especially, you have to take 
them from the shops and put them 
in the field. 

Q. — Have you been taking the 
white men to the cane farms? 

A. — I don't know of but one or 
two mechanics that we took to run 
the engines. 

Mr. Cabell spoke up: Every man 
that could work was taken out in 
1912. 

Q. — I understand that has been 
done every year. 

A. — Last year we had a surplus 
of men a part of the time. They 
came faster than we expected. 

Senator Willacy: I believe it is 
wrong to charge them up with the 
non-productive. I think the negro 
and Mexican convicts could be used 
to clear our surplus land and make 
work for our surplus labor there. 
It may be that we can not clear a 



414 



Report and Findings of 



great deal of it in one month, but 
it can be cleared. 

Commissioner Brahan. 'I think a 
reasonable way and an economical 
way to clear the land is to clear it 
on wet days and bad days and be- 
tween seasons, this is the way the 
people operating free labor use theirs. 
I remember one instance that we 
had laid the crop by we moved I 
think one hundred and twenty-five 
Mexicans down to the Ramsey farm. 
I think we kept them down there 
ninety days and the other day I think 
Mr. Blakely notified us that he could 
spare ninety-four Mexicans; they 
(were moved to the Clemens farm 
with one hundred and fifteen or six- 
teen others to clear land down there. 
If we have a good cotton crop we can 
move them. We can go on with the 
clearing there until we know about 
the crop. We have had trouble get- 
ting guards down there. We can use 
from twenty-five to thirty-five guards 
now. It requires more men to guard 
prisoners when they are working in 
the woods than it does when they are 
working in the open. 

Q. — How many more men would 
you say that it would take? 

A. — It will take about two men 
to the hundred more in the woods 
than in the open. 

Q. — It would be better to use these 
men to cultivate the soil than to use 
them clearing other land would it 
not? Assuming that a man can 
handle fifteen acres of land? 

A. — Yes, sir. I think so. 

Q. — Don't you think that would be 
a better investment to the State than 
to purchase a lot of land, to put this 
land they have into cultivation? 

A. — I don't believe you can clear 
the land as cheap as you can buy it 
in cultivation. 

Q. — Will not the wood about pay 
for the clearing? 

A. — 1 do not know about that. On 
the Imperial and Harlem and Clemens 
farms we have for fourteen years 
had to depend upon our neighbors 
for wood. We have cleared up lots 
of land just for the wood. We use 
lots of wood. We have been called 
on to clear up land for those people 
for cord wood. 

Q. — What is the reason we cannot 
clear our own land and get wood? 

A. — It is too distant. All of those 
tracts upon which we have options 
are only partly in a state of cultiva- 
tion, i If 



Q. — The Trammell place is all in 
cultivation. 

Senator Willacy remarked: I want 
to impress on the Committee and the 
Commission that by clearing our own 
land we can clear eight thousand 
acres of land, if a man can handle 
fifteen acres that gives employment 
for several men. When we clear 
our own land we add just that much 
value to our own property. The 
clearing of the land ought to be really 
kept separate. The State ought to 
clear it's .own land, especially when 
the clearing operations do not cost 
any more than it is. I believe that 
the State's lands ought to be cleared 
and that no other lands except those 
that you recommend the State to buy. 
I believe the white men ought to 
come up higher up and I think the 
negro and Mexican ought to be put 
to work clearing this land, and I 
think it ought to be cleared out in a 
big body so that you can have it all 
together. If you clear the balance 
of the Ramsey farm you will have 
a much larger body in cultivation. 
I think it is to the interest of the 
State to clear its own land. 

Q/ — What do you think about the 
suggestion about irrigation, to bring 
the lands under irrigation? 

A. — I'll say this, on the place that 
Mr. Eldridge now owns, I saw cane 
there on the black part of the land 
and one side of the turning row we 
got forty-two tons to the acre, across 
the turning row we got less than six 
tons to the acre. I think we can get 
sufficient water to irrigate anywhere 
from twenty- fi ve hundred to four 
thousand acres. I would rather have 
one acre properly irrigated than sev- 
eral not. I believe if you take a 
thousand acres of cane — I believe you 
would make more off of say one thous- 
and acres properly irrigated than you 
would off of twenty-five hundred or 
three thousand acres. With irriga- 
tion I believe it will average twenty 
to fifty dollars per acre. 

Interrogated by Mr. Tillotson: 

Q. — Have you any four-year stub- 
ble? 

A. — Yes, sir. But I think that 
about three years is long enough to 
depend on it. 

Q. — Is it your experience that you 
can depend on two year stubble bet- 
ter than longer? 

A. — Two years is about right on 
the old land. But new land you can 
run five years. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



415 



Q. — Have you ever been able to 
use the wood down there on the 
Clemens farm in the mills and other- 
wise? 

A. — About four years ago they ran- 
sacked the place and got what they 
could, but there is very little good 
wood down there that you can use in 
the mill. Most of the land there has 
big. wood. 

Q. — Do you make brick down 
there ? 

A. — I would not make that state- 
ment. I think they have made brick 
down there. And used the wood 
there. I think there are brick there 
and that you could make them. There 
is wood down there belonging to the 
State. I think every brick in the old 
sugar mill was burned and made 
right there. That was built about 
1882 or 1883. 

Q. — Now, isn't it a fact that there 
is a lot of wood that you cannot use 
for any other purpose, and is it not 
a further fact that it does not cost 
much to burn brick, and would it 
not be a saving to put in a kiln and 
burn brick there? 

A. — I think so; we have been think- 
ing about it. 

Governor Mayes interrogates wit- 
ness as follows: 

Q. — You, as manager of the farms, 
have charge of the cane and sugar 
mills ? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — What amount of improvements 
were put into the Clemens mills in 
1912? 

A.— I told Mr. Tillotson that I 
would get the amount up and mail 
it to him. I do not now know the 
exact amount. 

Q. — What was the character of the 
improvements that were made? 

A. — We put in new rollers in the 
mill and we put in a new crusher. The 
crusher that we had was working 
fairly well, but it was not the same 
length of the rollers and there be- 
ing a difference, the contractors 
could not get the size crusher the con- 
tract called for so they put in a 
larger one. The State got every- 
thing it contracted for and even a 
six inch bigger mill than it con- 
tracted for. Mr. Smith and Mr. 
Brooks said the mill would work 
better to make the change. We 
put in a six foot six crusher and put 
in those new rollers. And we made 
some repairs on the boiler, we put 
in about eight hundred new flues. 



We put in a hoist to get down and 
get the cane. And we put in a new 
chain. I think about forty-five or 
fifty thousand dollars was spent. 

Q. — Did you raise a part of the 
building? 

A. — No, sir; we only raised a part 
of the roof. 

Q. — Did you raise a part of the 
machinery? 

A. — No, sir; the machinery in the 
building was not raised — except a 
part on one side to put in some 
machinery. 

Q. — About what was required to 
make this change? 

A. — I would not say exactly, but 
about fifteen hundred or two thous- 
and dollars was required to raise 
the building. 

Q. — What did the crane that you 
put in cost? 

A. — The crane cost $2900. It's 
being put in now. 

Q. — Wasn't it put in last year? 

A. — No, sir; it was not put in last 
| year af all. 

Q. — Didn't you have to change 
the foundations of the building on 
account of the crane? 

A. — Nothing on the foundation 
was affected by the crane. 

Q. — Didn't you have the building 
raised to make room for the crane? 

A. — The raising of the building 
was necessary to get the carrier so 
that it would be high enough above 
the crusher. 

Q. — You say the crane was not 
put in last year? 

A. — The crane is being put in now. 

Q. — How much longer will it take 
to put it in? 

A. — I don't think it will take more 
than thirty days longer. 

Mr. Eldridge interrogates Mr. Bra- 
nan: 

Q. — I'll ask you if we haven't got 
the nearest fire wood that can be 
had to the Cunningham farm? 

A. — I think about the closest. 

Q. — I'll ask you if I haven't of- 
fered you all the fire wood you want? 

A. — (No response.) 

Interrogated by Governor Mayes: 

Q. — Was not that crane erected 
last year? Wasn't it put up there 
to help do that work? 

A. — It was put there to keep dur- 
ing the running Of the mill. 

Q. — How long was that mill oper- 
ated last year, during last season? 

A. — I think about thirty-five days. 

Q. — What was the output? 

A. — About nine thousand tons. 



416 



Report and Findings of 



Q. — How much capacity did you 
have? 

A. — I hardly know the capacity, 
but it is much more than that. 

Q. — How long ought you to have 
taken to grind that much? 

A. — We ought to have ground that 
up, that is, the nine thousand tons, 
in ten or twelve days. 

Q. — Mr. Brahan, did Mr. Eldridge 
make you an offer for the cane crop 
last year? 

A. — No, sir. 

Mr. Eldridge makes a statement: 

We got the largest crop in 1909. 
vVe grew ninety-six thousand tons 
that year. We haven't any crane, 
we have two chain locks, they are 
the ones that I found when I was 
there, we had occasion to break a 
roller since I have been there. We 
took that roller out and put in a 
new one inside of fifteen hours. I 
expect they have never had any more 
hoisting that we had. 

Governor Mayes: 

Q. — You mean to say that two 
chain blocks could be used to do the 
same work that this hoist crane 
does? 

A. — Yes, sir. 



SPECIAL REPORT OF AUDITOR 

JOHN M. MOORE OF THE PENI- 

TENTIAY SYSTEM. 

Huntsville, Texas, July 15th, 1913. 
Hon O. B. Colquitt, Governor, 

Austin, Texas. 
Dear Sir: 

Replying to yonr communication to 
me under date of June 2nd, beg to 
say that I have made an investiga- 
tion which though not as complete as 
I would like, I consider sufficiently 
complete for you to make a reasonable 
analysis therefrom. 

In the event new evidence is dis- 
covered or new statements made to 
me, I will forward same for your con- 
sideration. 

I repeat charge as made in quota- 
tion in your letter June 2nd, as follws: 

"In reference to the several hundred 
dollars Capt. Blakely claimed I swind- 
led from the negroes on the Harlem 
Farm, will advise that the money sc 
far as I am concerned was made legi- 
timately as Capt. Blakely allowed my 
predecessor Lawshea to buy and traf- 
fic in overtime *md allowed me thb 
same privilege, loaning me the money 
with which to operate on My charge 
was 25 cents on the dollar, which was 



well known to Capt. Blakely and also 
to the convict who sold his time. Ab 
it is well known a negro and some 
white people will give any price for 
money if caught in a tight, in gaming 
as was the case at Harlem State 
Farm". 

I beg to state that tl:e testimony 
given before the Commissoners, May 
15th, 1913, by Mr. T. C. Blakely ad- 
mits that he knew that the party mak- 
ing this complaint to you, was dealing 
in overtime 

Capt. Blakely admits that he loaned 
this party $200, which he (Blakely), 
claims was for other purposes, but 
which the party persistently claims 
was solely for the expressed purpose 
of the purchase of this overtime. 

Mr. Blakely, when examined before 
the Prison Commissioners, stated in 
answer to a question of Mr. Cabell, 
Mr. Cabell's question being as follows: 

"Mr. Blakely, Skinner stated be had 
bought all this overtime; had bought 
it with your consent; and that you 
loaned him the money to buy the over- 
time on". 

In answer Mr. Blakely said: 

"That is not correct. He came to 
me once and told me he needed $200, 
that he had the money and that as 
soon as he could hear from his wife 
he would pay me. I gave him a check 
for $200.00 but not to buy overtime 
with. I knew though that he was 
buying this overtime." 

Later on in the same testimony, Mi. 
Blakely testified as follows: 

"I knew Skinner was buying this 
overtime and all convicts were buy- 
ing it among themselves. The first 1 
discovered of this per d-'em business 
was from a letter a lawyer in Temple 
had written, and I asked Skinner about 
it and he told me it was a fact (dealing 
in per diem). Mr. Brahan and, I 
think Mr. Cabell, was on the place 
I told Skinner to make me out a state- 
ment of all money he had gotten from 
the convicts, and I had him refuni 
it to the convicts. I think it was 
about $110, wasn't it Skinner?" 

Skinner replied: 

"It was $143.00." 

(Correspondence and affidavit from 
"Lawyer in Temple" attached anc 1 
money thercn had not been paid to 
convict.) (See Exhibit I) if the affi- 
davit speaks the truth.) 

Later on in the same testimony, Mr 
Blakely, referring to Skinner, said: 

"This overtime I knew he was 
buying; they all traffic in it; it is 
theirs and they have a right to do 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



417 



what they want to with it. Of cours . , 
if any outsider or free man would buy 
it, I would discharge him if I heard 
of him trading in it. I would dis- 
charge him at once. The negroes all 
bought overtime. I discharged one 
negro who bad $700." 

Mr. Brahan makes statement, saiJ : 

'"It has been a custom for years 
that the convicts wouid buy one ano- 
ther's overtime. Before we put ir. 
commissaries (convicts commissaries; 
these negroes had nearly everything 
in their building.'' 

Mr. Blakely later on testified: 

"I stopped Skinnei .from buying per 
diem. I told him not to do it any 
more and thought he had. I nevei 
stopped him from buying the overtime, 
because I felt he had a right to buy 
it. He was a convict and they all were 
trading and trafficing in it. There are 
several negroes there buying it an 
the time". 

I quote this testimony to show clear- 
ly that trafficing in overtime was well 
known to Mr. Blakely aid that if he 
did not, as he stages, loan money with 
which to purchase this overtime, he 
did lend money to the party purchas- 
ing overtime, which relieved his finan- 
cial condition and made the purchase 
of overtime possible, indirectly by 
him. 

For your information, 1 quote from 
a communication dated January 26th, 
from the Assistant Secretary, duly for- 
warded to all Managers and Wardens, 
giving an extract from the minutes 
for their guidance and * instructions, 
reading as follows: 

"Upon motion duly seconded and 
adopted it was ordered that no warden, 
manager, assistant sergeant cir guard 
be allowed to buy overtime or per 
diem from any convict in the system. 
It was further ordered that every 
warden, manager and assistant serge- 
ant be notified to advise the convicts 
under their charge that no convict will 
be allowed to buy the overtime, per 
diem, or any money due another con- 
vict from any source, and that if such 
convict does so it is done at his own 
risk and same will not be authorized 
paid by the Prison Commission". 

Further comment on this complaint 
is not necessary. 1 will state, how- 
ever, that recently the Prison Com- 
mission has directed a circular letter 
to all Managers, Assistant Manager, 
and Wardens, instructing them that 
upon the discharge of a convict, that 
they would not and must not protect 
orders given to other convicts for per 



diem, overtime, cr any other similar 
money due them on discharge; that 
the same must be regarded by the 
Managers as a debt of honor between 
convicts and in the event they did 
not send it back to the party to whom 
they had sold and assigned it of their 
own free will and accord that the par- 
ty having so bought would lose. I 
believe that this has stopped the deal- 
ing in overtime, per diem, and dis- 
charge money. 

I repeat quotation from your letter, 
June 2nd as follows: 

"Gaining was a regular matter and 
permitted by the Manager only on 
some occasions he would stop it for 
the season of a few days or hou.s. 
In reference to gaming being knowr 
by other officials, will say that on 
Sunday the Chaplain (date not now 
remembered but some time during tue 
summer of 1912) called the matter tj 
Mr. Brahan's attention and his ex- 
cuse for it was that the negroes had 
to have some diversion; otherwise 
they would become discontented or 
escape and cause other troubles." 

In answer to this; I will admit T 
have not taken the time to investigate 
this matter. However, will say that 
the suppression of gambling as among 
convicts is a hard question to solve, 
and so far as I know, all officials have 
made efforts to stop it. Mr. Blakely 
has charge of the young negroes of 
the system, and if he has failed cO 
stop it, I do not know that it should 
operate as against him, and believt 
that he should have the benefit of the 
doubt. 

I repeat a quotation from your let- 
ter as follows: 

"The Harlem State Farm loaned out 
men to neighbors charging different 
prices for their labor, same being paid 
to Capt. T. C. Blakely. On some occa- 
sions the men were picking cotton Sa- 
turday all day or in the afternoo, the 
men got the revenue for their labors, 
but at other times the revenue was 
paid to Capt. T. C. Blakely. Tre 
men on the Patterson place weie 
charged at one dollar per head, which 
included guard hire. Tnis practice 
continued up to the time I left the 
farm. All these facts were duly 
known to Mr. R. W. Brahan, as he 
visited the Patterson place at the 
time, when on his tour around the 
farm." 

Replying to this charge: I find on 
the books at Harlem Farm, an account 



418 



Report and Findings of 



of which the following is a substantia. 

copy: 

1912 Labor loaned out 

Mar. 29th, 40 men 2 days J.R. 

Farmer $90.00 pJ. 

Fall 1911, 11,283 lbs cotton 
picked for J. A Madden . . 67.69 pd. 
Dec. 27, 1912. 
Mar. 29 1912 Labor during fire 

W. T. Bertrand 25.00 pd 

Sept. 17 1912 Cutting 11% 
cords wood for B. R. Everett 

at 75c 8.65 prl 

Sept. 21 1912 Picking Cotton 
6294 lbs at 60c, J. A. Mad- 
den 3.75 pd. 

Sept. 21 1912, Picking cotton 
6294 lbs. dif. 05c , J. A. 

Madden 3.15 pd 5-10 

Oct. 15 1912 Pulling corn 4 days 
for V. H. Knox, 13 men 

each day 52.00 pd. 10-1 S 

Oct. 16 1912 Picking 19621 lbs. 
cotton at 65c, J. A. Mad- 
den 127.43 pd. 10-16 

Aug. 24 1912 Collected from C. 

L Patterson, cash 335.00 

Oct. 5 1912 Collected from C. 
L. Patterson, cash ..,.370.00 
Mr. Blakely in letter hereto at- 
tached, marked Exhibit A. states re 
garding these amounts, that of ttio 
above amount 2 uorses was purchased 
from Mr. Hanson at $75.00 eaoh, mak- 
ing a total of $150.00 to be deducted 
from this account, leaving a balance 
on hand of $261.67 due the State from 
this account. The items of work done 
for C. L. Patterson amount to $705. Oo, 
having been taken in consideration ar.o" 
eliminated from the account in a 
settlement between said Patterson and 
the Prison Commission, this money, 
$705.00, being duly accounted for 
therein. Mr. Blakely has in his hands 
belonging to the year 1912 and not 
previously reported to the Finance 
Commissioner, or if reported to any 
one not entered upon the books of the 
Prison System, the sum of $261.67 
This, however, is shown by his booKs 
The evidence of demands on Blakely 
for reports or remittances on these 
matters, I am unable to discover. Mr 
Blakely says this work was authorized 
by a resolution of the Commissioners 
(see letter Hon. Ben E. Cabell attach- 
ed marked Exhibit B) and will show by 
reports made by nim daily to the Com- 
mission at Huntsville. This report, if 
made at all was evidently made to Mr. 
R. W. Brahan, the Farm Commissioner, 
and was evidently not reported from 
there to the Accounting Department, 
and this asset of the Prison System 



has evidently not been heretofore dis- 
covered by the Finance office. Neither 
do the books disclose the acquiring of 
the 2 guard horses, of the value of 
$150.00 and the report thereof, if made 
at all, will evidently be found filed 
somewhere in the Farm Commissiou- 
er's office. Mr. Blakely says this was 
an individual Harlem Plantation ac- 
count and that he was authorized by 
this resolution to expend the money 
for Harlem Farm. It was my inter- 
pretation of the resolution that the 
money was to be kept at Harlem plan- 
tation and expended for the benefit 
of this farm, says Mr. Blakely. 1 
am unable to find such authority in 
the resolution. 

The records show the date of the 
last work being done for J. A. Madden 
as 10-16-12, excepting that done for 
C. L. Patterson. The work for C. L 
Patterson according to the record hav- 
ing been continuel until December 23, 
1912. Regarding his authority for this, 
I quote from the Minutes of September 
28th, as follows: 

"Upon motion duly seconded and 
adopted Manager T. C. Blakely was 
authorized to do work for outside par- 
ties when he could spare the labor 
from the Harlem crop, the revenue to 
be derived .from this work to be used 
in purchasing guard horses for Har- 
lem Farm". 

The letter files here show the re- 
ceipt of a letter under date of Octo- 
ber 4th, from yourself as Governor, 
advising the discontinuance of the 
practice of hiring convicts to outside 
forces, and under date of October 7th 
a letter was directed to all wardens 
and managers, reading as follows: 

"For your information a:id attention 
beg to quote you from the Prison 
Minutes as follows : "Upon motion duly 
seconded and unanimously adopted it 
was ordered that no convict be re- 
quired or permitted to do work of any 
kind for any party whatsoever other 
than the State and that they shall do 
work only on property owned or leased 
by the State and do no outside work 
whatever". Please see that these in- 
structions are complied with." 

This is all that the minutes of the 
correspondence of the Prison Com- 
mission shows. If other instructions 
were given, the records do not bear 
it out. Under date of December 23rd, 
a letter written by Manager Blakelv 
to the Commission in which he submit 
ted a proposition to Commissioner 
Brahan to use such money as he had 
on hand to pay overtime to his cor- 



Penitentiaky Investigating Committee. 



419 



victs, which was not approved by the 
Commission, and he was written to 
that effect. (See Exhibit B.) 

It seems that earlier in the year ail 
parties agreed that the Prison Com- 
mission wo ild purchase from C. L. 
Patterson certain horses and bed 
cattle at a certain stipulated price 
and for which the Prison System 
should pay in labor of convicts, at odd 
times, at the rate of $1.00 per day per 
man, and in compliance with that con- 
tract, and rather than arbitrarily can- 
cel it Mr. Blakely continued to deliver 
the labor to C. L.. Patterson, and fur 
this labor the Prison "Commission re- 
ceived a credit on final settlement, the 
Patterson money, however, being the 
only money duly reported to the 
Finance Office. And in this connec- 
tion permit me to say that it is a very 
serious fault of the System that ail 
financial matters are not duly report- 
ed to the Finance Office for the pro- 
per taking into account of the sys- 
tem. 

I repeat quotation from your letter 
of June 2, as follows: 

"On a day or so before leaving the 
Harlem Farm Captain Blakely had me 
make out a statement of the amour,: 
due the state by him, attaching there- 
to a check for his signature, but 
when same was handed him all papers 
were placed in his drawer. The amount 
of the check I do not remem- 
ber, but I think it was near $2,000.00. 
These figures covered the money re- 
ceived from the sale of hides and ia 
bor loaned out to neighbors. Patter- 
son was furnished labor long after 
orders from the Governor for the dis- 
continuance of same, as I was in- 
formed, by direction of Mr. Brahan." 

In reply to this I will say that on 
a recent visit to Harlem Farm 1 
showed your entire communication t«> 
Mr. T. C. Blakely, had him to make ex- 
tracts of all subject matter therefrom 
and I regret that he has not referred 
to this particular item in his replies 
(See Exhibit A and C) which I an. 
attaching hereto. He, however, stat- 
ed orally to me, and agreed to cove: 
in his communication, that such check 
was prepared (the amount of which he 
did not remember) that it was for- 
warded to the Prison Commissioie 
However, this statement was maclo 
orally and it is my experience that 
due allowance should be made lor 
errors in oral statements. I will stat>. 
however, that an examiniation of the 
receipts of the Harlem Farm does not 
show such remittance of that date, 



but the letter file, however, does show 
a letter of this date asking permis- 
sion to apply this money to the pay- 
ment of overtime, which was declined 
by the Commission; that this money 
was not paid is clearly shown by the 
fact that Mr. Blakely, for Harlem ac- 
count, did remit to the Financial Office 
under date of April 4th. 1913, all of 
the hide money that should have been 
included in this remittance had the 
same been forwarded as Mr. Blakeiy 
thought it had. This remittance was 
received by the Prison Commission 
and duly entered on their books under 
date 4-7-13, and amounted to $875.76, 
and the date of remittance is almost 
simultaneous with the revocation of 
the pardon of Hugh Skinner, his par- 
don having been revoked under dau 
of 4-3-13. 

I repeat quotation from yours of 
June 2nd as, follows: 

"Full account of money received by 
Captain Blakely were kept in the 
ledger in his office. This ledger is a 
large reddish book, with same color 
on back, and is the same book in 
which convict accounts are kept". 

Replying to this, beg to state thai 
on my visit to the farm, accompanied 
by Hugh Skinner, that he found this 
book and exhibited it to me. 

Again repeating yours of June 2nd: 

"It is well understodd that Bassett 
Blakely farm is jointly owned by T 
C. Blakely and his brother Bassett 
Blakely." 

In answer to this, I beg to say that » 
am informed by a member of the 
Prison Commission that prior to the 
administration of the present Prison 
Commissioners that this farm was so 
owned, and so admitted by T. C. Blake- 
ly and his brother, Bassett Blakely, 
the mother of both also owning an 
interest. They, however, agreed that 
Bassett Blakely should purchase the 
interest of T. C. Blakely, and the? 
claim that it has so been done. It is 
my understanding that title to this 
property is now held in Bassett Blake- 
ly, brother of T. C. Blakely, and the 
r^other of T. C. Blakely and Bassea 
TMakely. T. C. Blakely is required to 
look after and keep a general super- 
vision of his brother's and mother'* 
place, now under the management of 
'ir. J. S. Murphy. 

I repeat quotation from yours o! 
rune 2nd, as follows: 

"it is also known that Figure 4 
Ranch is owned by T. C. Blakely, but 
handled by Real F. Ransom." 



420 



Report and Findings op 



Mr. Blakely, in his letter to me of 
th 4th. does not answer this. However, 
in conversation, Mr. Blakely stated 
to me that he had no interest in the 
Figure 4 Ranch; that the same was 
owned in fee simple by Real F. Ran- 
som. Mr. Ransom also states that 
he is the sole owner of this property, 
and that T. C. Blakely has no interest 
whatever therein. See Exhibit D.) In 
order to proj erly understand the com- 
plaints regarding the Ransom tract. 
1 will say that Real F. Ransom is a 
brother-in-law of T. C. Blakely and Mr. 
Blakely is required by the Commission- 
ers to handle the property of his 
brother-in-iaw and represent the Com- 
missioners in the division of crops and 
er matters incidental to the hand- 
ling thereof. The lease of the Real 
F. Ransom tract was entered into t)y 
written contract under date not set 
up in a contract, but was signed about 
May 11 to 23rd (See Exhibit E 5 & 6) 
but commencing on February 1st, 1911, 
and ending December 31st, 1913, and 
contains an option upon the land as 
the rate of $50.00 (See Exhibit "F", 
per acre. It cost Ranson $25.00 per 
acre, February 21st, 1913*, Deed Rec- 
ords of Fort Bend County, Vol. 56, 
page 329. It is my understanding that 
the leasing of this land was recom- 
mended by T. C. Blakely and R. W. 
Brahan to the rest of the Prison Com- 
missioners, and that this was the influ- 
ence which evidently caused them to 
make this lease. There are several mat- 
ters regarding the ransom contract, 
which will be dealt with in this com- 
munication later on, but a few general 
remarks regarding this contract is 
probably now in order. I will state that 
it is my information that at the time 
the Commission leased this tract oi 
land it had previously been planted to 
rice and had not sufficient drainage 
and was black waxy land, which in a 
country where the rainfall is as heavy 
as in the coast country is difficult and 
expensive to properly cultivate, and 
upon which the returns to the labor 
performed is not nearly so great as 
upon the peach ridge lands of this 
country or the red shell lands of th*- 
Brazos valley. This view is well un- 
derstood in this locality and in fact 
in the entire coast country and in a 
report of the Penitentiary Investigat- 
ing Committee, in 1909, on page 870, 
Mr. Blakely in answering questions by 
senator 'Hudspeth regarding the lands 
of the Harlem Farm, stated: 

"All of the land on this Farm (Har- 
lem) is cultivated except about 500 



acres that is used as a pasture for 
stock. It can be put in cultivation . 
but it is not good land. It is black 
prairie land." 

At the time this testimony was 
taken the Figure 4 Ranch was not 
owned by Real R. Ransom and I am 
unable to discover anything that would 
make it good lane now or any better 
than it was in 1909, whan owned by 
another party. The 500 acres of Har- 
lem Farm, referred to in Blakely's 
testimony, is divided by an imaginary 
iine only and is the same character 
of land as the Real F. Ransom land, 
and if any difference exists it is m 
favor of the 500 acres on the Harlem 
Farm, in my humble judgment. 

An examination of the records o>! 
Fort Bend County shows this tract of 
land to have been acquired by Real 
F. Ransom, a totai consideration bei lg 
$22,659.39 or $25.00 per acre, and on 
which during the month purchase wa3 
made the State secured ?n option at 
$50.00 per acre. Mr. Blakely tells mc 
that he offered this piece of land to 
his brother-in-law Real F. Ransom and 
acted as agent, making the sale and 
receiving a commission therefor. Mr. 
Blakely at the time was an emplayee 
of the State and if this land was worth 
$50.00 per acre, the price at which the 
option is taken, it is exceedingly un- 
fortunate that the trade was not offer- 
ed to the Prison Commissioners and 
the deal consummated for the benefit 
of his employer, instead of giving th2 
benefit, if benefit there was. to a mem- 
ber of his family. The deed in ques- 
tion is found in Vol. 56, page 329, 
Deed Records of Fort Bend County 
I have no way of arriving at any con- 
clusion or furnishing any facts from 
Wihich any one could arrive at a con- 
clusion, that the Real F. Ransom 
tract is owned by anyone else or that 
anyone else had any interest therein. 

I repeat quotation from yours of 
June 2nd, as follows: 

"The piece of land owned by a man 
in Bowling Green, Mo., which tra^e 
was started by J. A. Madden of Clodine, 
consummated I think on date check is- 
sued January, 1912, Which check was 
for first note, amount of check being 
something $2700.00 more or less, with 
$500.00 which was on deposit with the 
J. H. P. Davis and Company Bankers, 
Richmond, Texas, as earnest money. 
The notes were signed jointly by T. C 
Blakely and Bassett Blakely. The 
deed and title was examined and han- 
dled by Judge D. R. Pierson of Rich- 
mond, Texas. There was something 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



421 



like 500 more or less acres in this 
piece of property." 

In reply to this, beg to state that it 
evidently refers to a transaction of J. 
C. Biggs, of Pike County, Mo., and 1 
find in Volume 64, page 117, Fort Bend 
County, Deed Records, that the same 
was transferred from J. C. Briggs to 
Bassett Blakely, deed dated December 
15th, 1911, with a cash consideration 
of $3,267.90 paid, and the balance in 3 
annual payments of $3,267.95, payable 
on or before one, two, and three years 
from the date, to the order of J. C. 
Biggs, with interest at six per cent, 
and conveys 522.87 acres of land, more 
or less, in Fort Bend County, and be- 
ing partially in the Hugh Rogers, L. 
Burknatt and I. & G. N. survey. Filed 
for record February 10th, 1912. 

Mr. Blakely stated to me orally 
that he acted as agent for his brothei 
in the purchase of this piece of land 
and that he deposited the earnest 
money of $500.00 in the J. H. P. Da- 
vis & Company bank, at Richmond, 
Texas; himself as agent for Bassett 
Blakely, that this money was applied 
as a portion of the purchase price, but 
that his brother Bassett Blakely after- 
wards returned this money to him. 
He states emphatically that the re- 
mainder of the cash payment of $2,- 
767.90 was paid by Bassett Blakely 
and that Judge D. R. Pearson ex- 
amined the title and closed the deal 
and that he, T. C. Blakely, had no 
further relations therewith and did 
not own or claim to owl directly or 
indirectly any interest therein. Mr. 
T. C. Blakely very kindl\ offered me 
the examination of his private checks, 
•his bank account, and furthermore 
agreed to request Judge D. R. Pearson 
to make a statement and also his 
brother Bassett Blakely. Judge Pear- 
son stated to me in substance, as 
follows: That he examined the 
title to this tract of land and closed 
the deal for Bassett Blakely; that his 
impression is that he represented only 
Bassett Blakely therein, and it is his 
recollection that on or about January 
31st he received from Bassett Blakely 
a check for the remaindei of the cash 
payment, amounting to $2,767.90 which. 
in addition to the $500.00 of earnest 
money on deposit in J. H. P. Davis & 
Company's bank, made up the casn 
payment therefor; that on the passing 
of the title by him he paid this money 
to J. H. P. Davis & Company, and 
they disposed of it as per instruction 
of Biggs. Judge Pearson's statement, 
however, was not very emphatic, and 



he only stated this as his recollection 
I requested him several days ago to 
verify this conversation by letter, and 
his answer is hereto attached marked 
xhibit "G". 

Mr. Bassett Blakely in a communi- 
cation to me, under date of July 4th, 
states as follows: 

■ I have jast received a communica- 
tion from my brother T. C. Blakely, 
requesting me to write you regarding 
several properties which I now own 
and have leased to the State. First 
The Basseit Blakely farm; Second 
Biggs tract of 482 acres adjoining the 
Harlem Farm; and Third: The Turner 
;>lace of 1,000 acres adjoining tbu 
Imperial Farm, and all in Fort Bend 
County. The fact has been brought 
to my attention with reference to the 
above mentioned places that some 
one has attempted to convey to you 
the impression t^at my brother T. CJ 
Blakely is interested with me in the 
above mentioned places. I wish to 
state here most emphatically that T 
am the sole owner of these proper- 
ties and thac no one else is interested 
directly or indirectly with them. If 
you will kindly cali at my office at 
any time when you are in Houston, I 
-hall be pleased to confirm these facts 
by my deeds, also by my books, as to 
he disposition of the income received 
which will fully bear out this state- 
ment. If a statement of the abovr 
nature will help you in your investi- 
gation I shall be more than glad to 
make you an affidavit under oath, and 
if there is still a doubt in your mind 
in reference to *he question which 
has arisen I shall be willing to gc 
nto full details showing you how and 
when and where I acquired each of 
the properties above referrd to. Trust- 
ing that the above will place the mat- 
ter in a correct light before you, and 
remain, Yours very truly." 

This letter is attached, marked Ex- 
hibit "H\ 

However when I was at Harlem 
Farm with Hugh Skinner, he found in 
the files of this farm and in the office 
thereof, a certain check Identified by 
him as being the check drawn by T. 
C. Blakely in payment for the Biggs 
tract of land and representing the 
cash payment thereon, excepting the 
$500.00 formerly depositing in escrowe 
in J. H. P. Davis & Company's Bank. 
The check has all appearences of 
being genuine, le properly endorsed 
by I). R. Pearson and se^ms to have 
been handled through its natural 
channels. He offered this to me bui 



422 



Report and Findings of 



I declined to receive it ard instructea 
him to take it to Austin and deliver 
direct to you. You will evidently 
find it in the files in your office and 
should be considered by you in the 
case hereon reported. 

I am attaching hereto J. H. P. Davis 
& Company's letter marked Exhibit 
"J-l and 2" claiming that this money 
was paid them by Bassett Blakely. 
I am at a loss to explain this. Some 
one has evidently made a mistake. 

Skinner states emphatically that 
this check was for the purchase price 
of this piece of property and tha 
dates, amount and endorser apparent- 
ly verifies Ms statement. 

Quoting from your letter of June 
2nd, 1913, es foi]ows: 

"In regard to cotton being ginned 
at Richmond instead of Sugar Land 
as per instructions of Mr. Tittle, will 
say that this was done for the reason 
Ransom who is Blakely's brother-in- 
law would get gin toll, also they would 
make the division of what was cue 
them and not have to wait the slovr/ 
action of the bankrupted condition o r . 
the Commission to pay them what 
was due, also in order that they could 
collect a past debt of $1,000.00 due 
them from the last year's crop". 

Now regarding this complaint, 1 
beg to say that the cotton if divided 
in the field as the party here charges, 
such division was made in accordance 
with instructions properly issued by 
the proper authorities, to-wit: The 
present Commissioners ard that sairw 
was in direct line with the contract, 
and is fair and equitable, and is there- 
fore not considered, further. 

Quoting from your letter of June 
2nd, 1913, as follows: 

"In regard to the Lawshae ticket, 
will say that Lawshae took the money 
for an El Paso ticket, with the fuh 
knowledge of Captain Blakely. The 
receipt originally furnished by ' the 
Railroad Company was for $20.90 
whereas the proper rate being $23.90. 
A refund from Huntsville was askea 
for and secured which amount at the 
last was never paid to Lawshae, as 
Captain Blakely said if he would write 
him he would send the $3.00 but as 
far as I know Lawshae never did write 
Captain Blakely". 

In regard to this, I will say that 
Captain Blakely nas in hi.^ hands $3.00 
of the purchase price of this ticket, 
which amount was sent to him for 
the use and benefiil of the Railroad 
Agent, and is still in his hands and 
should be taken in accounting by the 



Finance Officer as against Captain 
Blakely, as the agent did not sell 
Lawshae a ticket to El Paso and his 
receipt for same was fraudulent. 

Quoting from your letter of June 
2nd, 1913, as follows: 

"In regard to the refusal of Cap- 
tain Blakely allowing Dr. Lay to use 
the State automobile in a emergency 
case, but instead used the same auto- 
mobile in trasportation of his friends 
from Richmond en one occastion for 
a big poker game another some kind 
of a party". 

Regarding this beg to say that Dr. 
Lay states to me that he applied for 
this automobile on the occasion com- 
plained of and the same was denied 
him. There was, however, furnished to 
him a driver, team and buggy and he 
was driven across to this other place 
with as little del.'iy as possible. The 
denial of the use of the automobile 
by Captain Blakely was strictly in line 
with the instructions issued to him 
by Commissioner Brahan, Commission- 
er Brahan's instructions being that 
this machine was to be used only by 
the prison officials and not by the ordi- 
nary employees. 

Quoting from your letter of Jum 
2nd, 1913, as follows: 

"The heavy expense of operating 
the light plant was called to the at- 
tention of Captain Blakely on several 
lifferent occasions, showing: that con- 
vict Wright Terry was using electri- 
city during the day time in ironing 
guards clothing for whom he was 
washing, also how much cheaper a 
gasoline plant could be erected and 
the minimum cost of san<e in opera- 
tion, but on going through our records 
and figuring the cost of maintaning 
lights on the Harlem Farm by electri- 
city costs in the neighborhood X 
something like $700.00 per month, he 
forbade me sending in the information 
after Mr. Whitley had signed same. 
But instead advised the Commission 
he would send in this information after 
sugar rolling. I can't say if this was 
done or not as 1 left the Farm De- 
cember 23rd." 

Replying will say I have no way 
of arriving at any information in this 
matter. 

Quoting from yo'jr letter of Juno 
2nd, 1913, as follows: 

"In regard to punishments will say 
that comparatively few punishments 
reported when the number of men 
were punished. As in {he case of 
Wright Terry, Bill Miller and Roy 
Estes who went to Sugar Land and 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



423 



caught staying with negrc women. No 
punishment reported as did not war;* 
to damage the record of Wright Terry 

In regard to the time Mr. Cabell 
came down and Catpain wanted orders 
to whip some af his negroes, but in 
refusing to grant same he gave the 
men a good lecture and void Cap Lam 
Blakely if necessary to wire him and 
he would wire orders but a list was 
fixed up, Mr. Brahan signing same, 
bringing same to Huntsville and hav- 
in Mr. Title to sign mailing the re- 
quired number of signatures, theu 
mailed same to Blakely. Some of 
those whipped on this" order were not 
reported until the next month, fcr 
instance Pat Nobles is one that i 
remember very distinctly as he worried 
me so much about his record, show- 
ing punishment a later date than It 
happened." 

Replying to this charge beg to say 
that you will find hereto attached ana 
marked Exhibit K-l and K-4 upon 
which you will find the order for the 
punishment of Pat Nobles, a conviet. 
It appears that the name of Pat 
Nobles was inserted into an order not 
originally intended for him. It con- 
tains the signature of one of the Com- 
missioners upon both sides, which 
I think you will be able to under- 
stand; it seems to have been issued or 
Nov. 16, 1911 and executed on Janua- 
ry 16, 1912. 

Your attention is also directed l<? 
Exhibit K-4 hereto attached, dated 
November 23, 1911 and covering Pat 
Nobles, the last pnishment order hav- 
ing been issued seven days after the 
first one the name of Pat Noble 
answering herein in ink and in hand- 
writing, which is peculiar to this par- 
ticular farm. It is hard to tell ji st 
what happened to Pat. 

A number of punishment orders are 
hereto attached; they seem to be iv 
regularly ordered and irregularly ap- 
proved, as the name of only one Com- 
missioner appears thereon. 

Now regarding tne convicts Wright 
Terry, Bill Miller and Roy Estes, beg 
to state that these parties seem to 
have been punished at the time of the 
committing of this offense by being 
placed in dark cells. Mr. Blakclv 
tells me that he suppressed the re- 
port thereof, in so far as the recoii 
shows, as he did not want to injure 
the chances of Wright Terry in the 
securing of a pardon, as this applica- 
tion was upon your desk, but trial 
the punishment was given and that 
Mr. Brahan knew it and also that 



Mr. Cabell knew it. You will find on 
examination of Mr. Cabell's letter 
hereto attached and marked Exhibit 
"A" that Mr. Cabell at least, knew 
nothing regarding this. 

Regarding the matter of hides re- 
ported, as shown in your letter of Juno 
nd, 1913, I beg to say that same i3 
in comformity with the books at 
Huntsville. 

Regarding the matter of the Com- 
mission check for per diem issued to 
Sam Young beg to state that I am 
attaching hereto all papers relating 
thereto, marked Exhibit "L". An 

examination of this will show a stale 
of affairs that is peculiar . You 
will understand that the Manager rf 
one of these farms is required to open 
and read the convict's mail, and it 
Claudie Webster was returning per 
diem money to Sam Young, same 
should have been discovered from tin 
reading of the communications and 
the per diem check as therein en- 
closed. That such check was sent to 
Sam Young is proven by the endorse- 
ment on the back of the check same 
being by Real F. Ransom and muai 
have passed through the Manager's 
hands. 

Now then if he cashed this check 
for the convicts, he acted in violation 
of the law which evidently contem- 
plates that this money shall go to tbe 
support of the dependent relations of 
the man convicted. If he did not 
cash it for him, he should return this 
money to the Commissioners and same 
should again be passed to the credit, ol 
Sam Young or to his dependent rela- 
tions as per his order. 

Now regarding the improvements as 
made on the Figure 4 Ranch, I ha»e 
to say so far as 1 am able to find o it 
from the correspondence, the dea! 
seems to have been consummated 
sometime in May but to have become 
operative on February 1st, previous. 
It seems that the improvements on 
this property were contemplated at 
chis time but that the contract for 
the improvements was not made a 
portion of the lease on the land. The 
improvements were discussed in con- 
versations and in communication, 
from time to time, until July 30 and 
wound up by Real F Ranson filing 
with the Commissioners a letter vhich 
was a protest, and statmg to them 
that in the event they were putting 
these improvements there at the 
State's expense he would not complain 
but in the event a portion of these im- 
provements would have to be paid for 



424 



Report and Findings op 



by him, he would object upon ilie 
grounds that he did not want any- 
thing nearly so elaborate or expen- 
sive. 

And in order to properly understand 
just how this transaction appears, 
your attention is directed to Exhib".' 
"E 1" to E 11" hereto attached. 

The first carpenter work done on 
the Holland Farm as shown by the 
pay rolls thereof, commenced up-m 
July 31st, 1911, and was on the sugav 
mill and from the sugar mill two woik- 
men were transferred to the improve- 
ments on the Figure 4 Ranch. 

Mr. Ransom's protest appears cf 
date of July 30, 1911, and so far as 
the filers at Huatsville shows was 
never answered but the work way 
dene at a later date without any un- 
derstanding and contract by which 
the State could recover the value of 
the improvements and so far as I am 
able to discover any portion thereof 
from what the correspondence filt 
shows. 

As previously stated to you this ianJ 
was an old rice farm, and the ditcnea 
thereon were constructed with th l 
view of running water thereon instead 
of the land in cultivation, this land 
M9S been ditched at intervals of from 
800 to 900 yards and the prison build- 
ing has been constructed thereon as 
above stated, the residence house has 
been repainted, new flues and chim- 
nies built, but up to this time the 
finance office has no charge against 
the owner for these improvements 
and whether there is any grounds upon 
which to recover the value of these 
improvements will have to be de- 
termined from the facts as are herein 
set out, unless there is other evidence 
that I have been unable to discover. 

In order for you to determine the 
value of these improvements your at- 
tention is direct to a report of in- 
spection of the entire system under 
date of January 6, 1911, and directed 
to you as Governor, and after having 
read the report I would respectf ully 
call your attention to the report of 
the Finance Office of the Present 
-System as made to the investigating 
committee of the Legislature, which 
ishows that there has been expended 
for permanent improvements as fol- 
lows; 

In the year 1911 total expenditures 
for carpenters and painters . . $2,297.40 
For plumbing and electrical 

fixtures 753.68 

For lime cement and sand . . 509.10 



For iron roofing and sundry 

material 2,312.60 

For lumber, sash and doors 10,664.00 

For brick 417.00 

For varnish and paints 669.13 

I desire to state, however, that the 
plant at the sugar mill was entirely 
overhauled during 1911 and that a 
portion of this money was expended 
thereon, the amount of which I ana 
unable to state, as Mr. T. C. Blakely 
did not make a separate accounting 
either on pay roll or on property ac- 
count for the materials abose enum- 
erated and all now stands charged 
upon the books at Huntsville as a 
permanent improvement against Har- 
lem Farm. 

Your attention is. also directed to 
the report made to the Investigating 
Committee showing that there was 
used in 1911, 12 and 13 on Harlem 
Farm for permanent improvements 
43,554 days of manual labor by con- 
victs and 3,912 days for which perma- 
nent improvement has been charged 
as against the property $51,821.40 and 
the result achieved by results of this 
labor as shown therein was land 
cleared 100 acres, road building 7 
miles, ditching 5 miles, fencing 6 miles. 
The land cleared as shown herein, 
consist of about 90 acres owned by J. 
R. Patterson, and 12 acres belonging 
to Real F. Ransom, the item of road 
building about 4y 2 miles of this is up- 
on State property, the other is evi- 
dently in repairs made to turning 
rows and the ditching 5 miles, about 
l 1 ^ miles of this was upon Harlem 
Farm proper, and the remainder of 
the adjoining lands, the fencing 6 
miles, 1 mile of this appears to be 
new fence and 5 miles of it repairs, 
thus it will be seen that but very little 
of the items put out about as a result 
achieved by reason of this labor ope- 
rates for the benefit of (Harlem Farm, 
however, in justice to these gentle- 
men, I will state that they failed to 
take proper credit for other valuable 
improvements which they seemed to 
have overlooked, and which I recall 
from memory as follows. 

Resurfaced and practically rebuilt 
something over three miles of rail- 
way. 

Repaired practically all buildings on 
the place. 

Rearranged and added to the Man- 
ager's house. 

Made valuable improvements to the 
sugar mills. 

Built new office building. 



Penitentiary Investigating Committee. 



425 



And upon all of this work convict 
labor was evidently used. 

In conclusion I beg to say that I 
have tried to conduct this investiga- 
tion for you along lines perfectly fair 
to all interests therein and all parties 
affected thereby, and upon the evi- 
dence here shown, I hope all parties 
interested will concede to be fair. 

My command of the English lan- 
guage it not always sufficient for me 
to make myself thoroughly understood, 
and I hope that if there is any portion 
of this communication, not perfectly 
clear to you that you will call my 
attention to same an'd I will try to 
make my meanings plain. 

I have always heretofore filed with 
your Commissioner a carbon copy of 
all reports to you; this however, I 
am not doing in this case, but am en- 
closing to you instead, that you may 
use it in any manner that to you seems 
proper. 

I have the honor to remain, 
Yours truly, 
JXO. M. MOORE, 
Auditor Penitentiary System. 



MONDAY, JULY 21ST, A; D. 1913, 
AUSTIN, TEXAS. 

Testimony of Hon. Ice Reeves. 

Examination by Lieutenant Gover- 
nor Mayes: 

Statement: We have learned that 
one Jeff Steel of Sherman, who 
was formerly Assistant Manager of 
one of the State Farms of the Peni- 
tentiary System had made some state- 
ments to you in regard to the meth- 
ods of transacting the business of 
the State on these farms and desired 
to have you appear before the com- 
mittee to make such statements as 
you cared to make. 

Q. — Do you know anything about it? 

A. — I was in conversation with him, 
and I think he said it was at the Har- 
lem Farm; this man is an honorable 
and truthful man and I had heard of 
some statements that he had made, 
and I went to him and asked him about 
the statements he had made and 
asked him to tell me what he knew 
about the Penitentiary System and 
the management of the State's farms, 
and he told me that he would rather 
not be quoted, that he did not want 
to be quoted, and I told him, that I 
ought to know about it, and that he 
did know and I wanted him to tell 



me all that he did know about it. He 
said to me: "Reeves, I don't like to 
tell about this". But he went ahead 
to say that it was the greatest waste 
that he ever saw. He said that 
they would order in whole car loads 
of fine beef cattle and that they would 
then report the cattle as being no 
good, and that would be the last that 
you would ever hear of the cattle. He 
said that they would gin from fif- 
teen to twenty-five bales of cotton and 
they would report six or seven. He 
went on to make a great many other 
charges of this kind. He said that 
he thought if he stayed there he would 
be a party to the crime, so he decided 
to get away. He just reasoned it out 
that way. 

Q. — Can you tell me the time that 
Mr. Steel was employed? 

A. — I cannot tell you. Sometime 
during the last year, though. 

Q. — You don't know how long he 
was there and what period? 

A. — No, sir, I could not say, but 
he is working near Sherman, is run- 
ning a threasher north of town now. 

Q. — What would be his address, 
Sherman? 

A. — Yes, sir. 

Q. — Do you know of any other 
charges? 

A. — Yes, there are lots of them; 
why, you ought to hear J. R. Elliott, 
you ought to hear what he has to say 
about the stuff they are using and 
the way they use it. I talked with 
him about it. I told him that I 
wanted to know about it for we must 
take some action in the matter. 

Interrogated by Mr. R. B. Hump- 
rey: 

Q. — When did you learn this? 

A. — A week or two ago. I went 
to see him about it. 

Senator Willacy makes a statement 
that it is impossible to go into these 
things in detail at this time owing to 
the lateness with which it comes tc 
the committee; hence the matter is 
referred to the Governor with sug- 
gestion that Mr. Steele be asked to 
appear before the Penitentiary Com- 
mission to be examined by them rela- 
tive to these charges, and Governor 
Mayes states that Mr. Elliott was 
before the committee and his testimo- 
ny is in the recorrd. 

Q. — Have you any other statements 
to make Mr. Reeves? 

A. — That is all, I believe. 



INDEX 



CONTRACT — Page 
Contract submitted by Eld- 
ridge 220 

FINDINGS OF COMMITTEE.. 1-33 

Accounting department 28 

Acreage and distribution of 

men 12 

Assets 7 

Accounts charged off 8 

Audits 3 

Conclusion 32 

Changes in locations 27 

Changes in law 27 

Expenditures and indebted- 
ness, Jan. 20, 1911-Dec. 

31, 1912 7 

Fireproof buildings 27 

Farm operation losses 9 

Factors in increased cost. ... 17 

General policy 21 

Guards 31 

Grading convicts 30 

Health 31 

Historical 2 

Inventory 19 

Liabilities 7 

Losses at Rusk and Hunts- 

ville 4 

Method of making purchases 29 

New law 13 

Organization and manage- 
ment 27 

Per diem for convicts 32 

Penitentiary is part of State 

Government 15 

Punishment 29 

Per capita of maintenance.. 11 

Present indebtedness 7 

Recommendations 21 

Ramsey Railway 21 

Kevenues, 1901-1910 5 

Sugar cane 25 

State railroads 20 

Working hours 31 

LETTERS — 

Cabell and Brahan to Kemp- 

ner and Eldridge 221 

Cabell and Brahan to J. Lane 221 

Cabell to Eldridge 218-219 

Cabell to Eldridge 221 

Colquitt to Mayes 40 

Colquitt to Penitentiary Com- 
mission 41 

Eldridge to Cabell 220-221 



LETTERS — Continued. Page 
Goodfellow to Colquitt. . .399-401 
Lane to Prison Commis- 
sion 221-222 

Stubblefield to Tittle 403-404 

Moore to Tittle 135 

Moore to Humphreys 135 

Mayes to Cabell 288 

Mayes to Stiles 288-292 

Prison Commission to Com- 
mittee 44 

Tittle to Colquitt 401-403 

MINORITY REPORT 33-39 

Bookkeeping 38 

Cotton growing 38 

Convict labor 37 

Convict discipline 36 

Discharged convicts 38 

Farm managers 37 

Factories 38 

Guards 38 

Litigation 38 

Recommendations 39 

Religious services 38 

Texas prison policy 36 

Wearing of stripes 38 

Why have a penitentiary. . . 34 

MOORE, J. M., AUDITOR — 

Report to Governor. . . . . .416-425 

RESOLUTION — 

Creating Committee 40 

SESSIONS OF COMMITTEE — 

April 23, at Austin 40 

April 24, at Austin 43 

April 25, at Austin 44 

April 26, at Austin 44 

April 29, at Huntsville 44 

April 30, at Huntsville. .60, 71, 45 

May 1, at Huntsville 45, 82 

May 2, at Huntsville 98, 45 

May 3, at Huntsville 45, 128 

May 4, at Huntsville 46 

May 5, at Rusk 46 

May 6, at Rusk 46, 170 

May 19, at Houston. .47, 202, 249 

May 20, at Houston 47, 228 

May 21, at Houston 47 

May 22, at Harlem farm. .51, 259 
May 23, at Harlem and Impe- 
rial farms and Houston. 58, 277 
May 24, at House and Ram- 
sey plantations 59, 292 



428 



Index. 



SESSIONS OF COMMITTEE — 

Continued. Page 

Hall, T. H 295-298 

May 2 5, at Ramsey and Tram- 
mel farms, Brazoria and 

Freeport 59, 309 

May 26, at Freeport, Texas, 

and Clemens farm 59,335 

May 27, at Clemens farm. .59, 316 

July 1, at Austin 60, 377, 410 

July 2, at Austin 393 

July 3, at Austin 60 

July 8, at Austin 60, 404 

July 21, at Austin 42 5 

TESTIMONY, BY — 

Addison, A. K 277-282 

Barton, A. M 60-70 

Brahan, R.W.93, 98-102, 103- 
107, 113, 142, 146, 149, 
181, 257-259, 262, 267, 
270, 272, 276-277, 282- 
288, 295, 299, 300, 302, 
303, 311, 315, 393, 410-416 

Blakeley, Bassett 

226-228, 259- 

262, 262-267, 267-270, 271-278 

Brooks, W. M 316 

Bertram, W. T 56-58 

Bush, L. E 161-164 

Cabell, Ben E. . . .64, 66, 94 
107, 127, 177, 169-170, 381-387 

Cunningham, K. F 292-295 

Castellan, Dr 303 

Crews, J. A 371-373 

Davis, Louis 389-390 

Elliott, J. R 387-389 

Eldridge, W. T 47-50, 

215,-226, 377-381, 387, 390 

Frazier, J. F 369-371 

Goodfellow, Robert 393-399 

Grammer, J. W 179-181 

Gill, W. H 228-239 

Hill 102-103, 108-127 

House, T. W 202-214 

Haynes. 142-145, 146-148, 149, 150 
Huey, F. J 82-88 



TESTIMONY BY — 

Continued. Page 

Herring, J. A 71-81 

Henderson, Bill 360-361 

Huntington, M 342-345 

Johns, C. C 164-166 

Jones, P. E 181-182 

King, A. E 156-161 

Long, J. B 199-202 

Lewis, W. H 196-199 

Lee, A. E 374-376 

Moore, J. M 

70-71, 89-93, 94-98, 

135-136, 141, 176, 179, 404-410 

Matthews, H. H 366-369 

Moss, George 376-377 

Miller, C. R 390 

Minutes of Prison Commission 404 

Mason, D 345-349 

McCann, Joe 357-360 

Mills, E. B 

....322-329, 335-342, 349-355 

Nash, F. M 155-156 

Pierson, D. R 52-56 

Peterson, H. L 248-249 

Pryor, J. T. (statement) . . . 403 

Palmer, J. A 170-178 

Robnett, J. B .150-153 

Reeves, Ice 425 

Smith, S. J 182-190 

Stubblefield, J. A 190-196 

South, J. N 298-309 

Stanley, J. H 355-357 

Smith, Sid 373-374 

Stiles, Sam 361-363 

Smith, F. B 329-335 

Tittle, L. W 128- 

138, 136-141, 142, 145- 
146, 148-149, 390-393, 398-399 

Trammel, H. L 239, 246 

Thomas, J. B 249-257 

Woods, Al 363-366 

Weems, J. H 309-315 

Wing, W. G 246-248 

Warden, R. M 153-155 

Zaby, Chas 166-169 






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